God's Word, or God's word

[jabcat]

Hello all.  Before responding to this thread, please take a deep breath, remember we're brothers and sisters, and seek the Lord's leading...not leaning to our own understanding or emotions.  I believe God has impressed upon me to take a stand for His Word, and although I know I have a lot to learn, I believe this is what He wants from me right now.

I'm not talking about possible mistranslations and misinterpretions passed down through the years as traditions of men, or of actual, factual findings of corruptions/additions in transcription.  Finding out new truths and accurate understandings within God's Word seems much different to me than deciding which parts of the Bible I either a) choose to believe or b) choose to accept as even being God's Word.  If it's not shown to be an added, man-made corruption, then I believe it's God's Word, whether I understand it at present, or not...or whether it agrees with my view of Who He is or how I think He should be or manifest Himself.  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.  Isaiah 55:6-9.

"It is written,
'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds
from the mouth of God.'" (Matthew 4:1-4).

"The Grass withereth, flower fadeth: but the Word of OUR God shall stand for ever".  (Is. 40:8).

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"; (2 Tim 3:16).

First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.
(2 peter 1:20).   

I believe when God inspired/God-breathed His Word, He meant what He said...not that it says one thing to me and another to someone else.  He meant a specific thing.  Our disagreements, denominations, arguing and own individual viewpoints don't change what God meant.  That's why I believe we need to share in love, not being dogmatic or even argumentative to a point of ceasing to be an effective witness and encourager to each other.  We are all on a journey, and none of us have been taught by God everything yet...so our lack of understanding is not to fight over, divide over, or begin to dismiss parts of God's Word we can't as yet understand because it doesn't fit for us.  I believe our understanding needs to be in the Word, not choosing which parts feel best to us.  Maybe the problem's my thoughts, not God's actions.

We make a big thing out of the 'ALL' word when it comes to UR.  But when scripture states "All Scripture", then we make 'all' not mean 'all' anymore.  One last thought, and please take it as a thought, as means of communicating a point, and not a challenge or accusation;  How would you respond, even just internally, if I decided and began to state "I'm a believer, but John 3:16 just doesn't work for me any more/right now"... 

I believe God's Word is to be our standard (not our foundation, that is Jesus), but our point of reference for truth and guidance.  "Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and light unto my path", Psalm 119:105.  God's blessing.

[Kept]

Hi jabcat

Just as you feel very inspired to speak so do I and I hope you dont mind that I put it here.

Today my heart was very much set a blaze

The Lord spoke in my ear very plainly

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

—Matthew 26:52

Im sure this verse has many layers but for me right now it is this

put away violence, put away judging, put away wrath for if you choose to live by those you will perish by them

you see it one way, I see it another

I do not see it as going with my 'feelings and picking and choosing'

I see it as putting up my sword and walking away from it

and that is what I choose

*edited to add*

Jesus Christ, innocense, beauty, perfection, drew us all up into Himself and died on that cross giving us whom chose the sword, whom chose brutality, whom chose another way, another life, a new life, a new way.

we CAN choose to live by it and that doesnt mean we have to find some beauty in brutality and try and pass it off as Gods ways. imo

God bless
kept

[Loveroftruth]

"It is written,
'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds
from the mouth of God.'" (Matthew 4:1-4).

"WORD" HERE IS RHEMA WHICH MEANS A LIVING WORD, LIKE WHEN GOD SPEAKS TO YOU OR I RIGHT NOW. IT DOES NOT MEAN BIBLE.

"The Grass withereth, flower fadeth: but the Word of OUR God shall stand for ever".  (Is. 40:8).

"WORD HERE IS THIS
Strong's Number:   1697   
Original Word   Word Origin
rbd   from (01696)
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Dabar   TWOT - 399a
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
daw-baw'       Noun Masculine
Definition

   1. speech, word, speaking, thing
         1. speech
         2. saying, utterance
         3. word, words
         4. business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

IT DOES NOT MEAN BIBLE BUT THE SAYING, UTTERANCES, ACTS, MANNER ETC.... AGAIN, WHAT IT IS SAYING IS THAT WHAT GOD DOES STANDS FOREVER.

"All Scripture   is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"; (2 Tim 3:16).

Again, we know there was no Bible, and we know there was no NT letters, so what was scripture?

PEACE :HeartThrob:

[Kept]

Still more

There is another way to live your life with God thru the Son and that path is to dwell on what is pure, what is life

not on what is death and try and fit it into some spiritual symbolism and label it life

there is a path that centers itself on death, always dwelling on suffering, denying, always dwelling on what is to come someday, some way if one suffers enough or the right way or dies to self enough or the right way

I get that, been there done it bought the tshirt, this is the path that looks at all that brutality in the bible and spiritualizes it to represent their own path of suffering and dying.....

I choose to rather dwell on the good alone that I can find in the word, in people, in life, that is a way I can choose as well and it is much kinder, a much kinder way to die....without all the twisting of scripture to make it fit some death view that one must constantly keep in view to make it to being a clone of the Son

when the Son has already done it all and says 'put away your sword..'

Id rather die that way personally, with my sword in its sheath

kept

this might not make sense to anyone but me but its my life so I will live it the way I feel inspired too and that means living by the beauty I find everywhere

[jabcat]

Thank you both for your kind spirit, even if we see it differently...God's blessing, James.

[Wonderland]

Hi Jabcat,

2Tim 3.16:  the preceding verse, Paul says what the holy writings were able to do for Timothy (with the unveiling from His spirit)... they were able to make him wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Kept posted something in the 'meanie God of the OT vs Christ in NT' thread (can't remember the exact title)

Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, "These are My words, which I speak to you, still being with you, for all must be fulfilled that is written in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms concerning Me."

What He didn't do was state that everything written within the law, prophets and psalms spoke of Him... otherwise, why the need to open their minds for them to understand?  :dontknow:


back to 2Tim 3.16: I'll provide the link again rather than type it all out...

http://journal.biblicalrecorder.org/br/alongtheway/tags/theopneustos

'...is inspired at the point they become efficacious in doctrine, reproof, correction and training in righteousness. It is at this point, when God inspires the writing that the scriptures, the logos of God becomes the rhema of God and therefore inerrant'

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2ti3.pdf  (Greek interlinear)

Another thing, if you take out the is from 2Tim 3.16 (see Greek interlinear) then verse 15 and 16 tie up together much better imo and also fits with Christ's statement in Luke 24.44...

2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe you are acquainted with the sacred scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness


Edit to clarify: it looks to me as if the 'all scripture' in verse 16 is referring to those scriptures that are able to make Timothy wise unto salvation.  And not a blanket statement for every writing of the OT being 'God-breathed'.

Makes a bit more sense to me... and as always... just my  :2c:.

Open to thoughts on this too...

[Loveroftruth]

jabcat
Bless you brother  :girlheart:
We can only go with what the Lord has shown each of us individually through His voice and through His word  :thumbsup:

It will all work out in the end :Party:

[Kept]

yw jabcat, ty for being such a gracious person to talk too! I respect you and thank you

kept

  :girlheart:

[jfraysse]

Brother James (Jabcat): 

First, let me state that I take the Bible very seriously, so I understand your passion and agree with you 100% if that is what God has called you to do at this time in your life.  I respect your commitment to the Father and your obedience! :thumbsup:

I am a bit more cautious, as I believe the Bible has been used to justify horrible atrocities and has produced twisted Dogmas some of which resulting in further crimes against humanity (God's Creation). 

It is obvious that all Christians "pick and choose", you and I are not exceptions, we just pick and choose different things.  Organized groups of Christians have "Picked and Chosen" themselves into over 30,000 denominations while reading the SAME Bible and being lead by the SAME Holy Spirit.  They have adamantly insisted on enough issues of form and doctrine to divide into separate groups, thereby choosing not to fellowship with one another.  I refuse to be a practicing part of any of these "tribes".  I accept all who desire fellowship in the bonds of peace.

The Father sent the Holy Spirit for a reason, that is, to lead us in all truth.  I find it interesting that Jesus never wrote anything down nor commanded that his words be written in "gospels".  He did not suggest that we celebrate His Birth, Death or even His Resurrection: Just that we "Remember Him" and His Teachings.  Jesus didn't even prophesy about the Canonization of "God's Word".  Surely, if this was such an important event He would have told us something about its advent some 300+ years in the future.  Paul didn't speak of his letters as "scripture" either.

Nevertheless, the Roman Catholic Church put the Bible together almost 1700 years ago and I accept it for the life and spiritual growth it offers.  My main concern is that many Christians see the Bible as "An Idol".  That is, if they are convinced the "Bible says so..."  then they will do whatever, no matter how much God's Spirit says, "NO"!  If the Bible is all that God has to say to us, then why the Holy Spirit and why Jesus?  The Father could have just sent "A Correction to the Law" with Power and Signs following just like He "corrected" His Creation with the Flood and "corrected" the Jews with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

Since I became a believer, I have studied the Bible.  It remains a regular part of my spare time.  But there are parts of it that are vile beyond reason to me.  It's not so much that I don't want to believe them – I don't know HOW to believe them.  Maybe, in time, I will discover this.  Meanwhile, in my spiritual life, I denote these passages as "shoal markers" (I love to sail and boat) that warn me of the "Dangers" that are a part of the deep true waters of God's Will.  I am so tiny in His vast ocean but I am free to navigate these waters guided by the compass of His Spirit and Grace that bear witness with His Word.  The "Dangers" that foul the Truth as I understand it are a small part of this vast sea, but they are, nevertheless, there.  I do not deny them, but I dare not embracement them, for to do so would be to ignore the voice of my Captain who still whispers, "don't go there, I'm not like that"!

Thanks, Brother for this thread and thanks for listening!

Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Thanks John, intrigueing points, God's blessing.

[jabcat]

Interesting opinion and informative..."How did the apostles' writings come together to form the New Testament canon--the collection of books which are received as genuine and inspired Holy Scripture?"  The Christians and the church simply acknowledged the apostles' authority and accepted their writings, and writings of those intimately associated with them (as Mark and Luke), as part of the Holy Scripture. The church did not put together a canon that made books authoritative because they were included in it. The church only acknowledged what was given by the apostles, and included books in the canon because of this apostolical authority. They never regarded these books as anything else than canonical.

The actual canonization process took a long time. At first each of the apostle's writings were acknowledged individually as authoritative.  As time passed the need for a canon increased. False teachers arose and questioned the authority of certain of the writings that did not agree with their ideas. This forced the Christian brotherhood to gather together the individual apostle's writings and assemble them into a canon. The church gathered together the writings that were accepted as the apostles' from the very beginning. This was no real problem for the church since she as a whole generally acknowledged the same writings.

The written word quickly received a place of high significance. It was placed on the same level as the Old Testament Scriptures. Paul's letters were read in church gatherings on the same level as Old Testament Scriptures (1 Thess. 5:27, Col. 4:16). Peter classed Paul's letter with the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:15). John presupposed that his Book of the Revelation would be read as other Scriptures (Rev. 1:3).

One's confidence in our Scriptures is also supported by the attitude of Christ and the Apostles toward them. They did not hesitate to trust the Old Testament Scriptures. These too were not originals. If they had faith in the adequacy of their copies and never questioned them, we should have even more faith in our New Testament copies as being trustworthy.

from "The Authority of Scripture", Leland M. Haines (1969)

[Kratos]

The funny thing about this subject is that most on here believe that the NT is inspired and can be trusted, but they do not trust what was written in the OT about God.

And yet, it should be clear to all that the only scriptures that Jesus and Paul could have been referring to when speaking of the inspiration of scriptures had to be the OT. This is all they had at the time.

So if we are going to be consistent, we would have to say that only the NT can be questioned as to whether they are indeed "scriptures' or the Word of God.

I hold to both the NT and the OT as being "scripture" and the "Word of God", but I do think it is an interesting point to understand what Jesus and Paul had to mean specifically when they referred to the scriptures.

John

[jabcat]

Even if our texts are altered or deliberately destroyed to hide some truth from us by the early church fathers, what is important, the Holy Spirit was never handicapped by this.  He reached us all through the myriad of lies and deceit.
Blessings

Hey Bernie.  As you're probably seeing, I'm inclined to say we should be very careful with God's Word and revere it for what I believe it is, His spoken words to us, and that we'll be held accountable for how we handle it.  I have been looking wrt the above (and similar) statements some and not coming up with anything that looks as if it's from an unbiased source, i.e., either one side invested in proving authenticity, or the other often trying like heck to disprove the Bible.  Do you have any further information on the "altered texts/deliberately destroyed" topic, or have any good links where that could be examined?  Thanks, James.

[SeekerSA]

On the other thread I posted a link to ON RELIGION AND MYTHS

Here is a relevant snippet to what is being discussed here.

Classical Protestantism has the religious (mythological) belief that the Bible and the Bible only is the all-sufficient rule of faith and practice.

But if you let the Bible speak for itself it doesn't make such claims. It is not always clear whether some commands or requirements are temporary or permanent, if they apply to an historical people in an historical situation or to all people in all situations: and it is also silent on many social and ethical problems faced by us today.

As for the great doctrines of incarnation, trinity, atonement, etc, if they were always as clearly stated in the Bible as it has often been affirmed, why has the church in all ages resorted to Creeds. The Creeds, it is said, state what the Bible teaches. So when people believe say the Athasascan Creed and what it says about the Trinity, they go to the Bible and sure enough they find the texts which confirm the Athanascan Creed. The SDA's too find their 27 Fundamental Beliefs in the Bible including the idea of an "investigative judgment" beginning in heaven in 1844 while the JW's can find that Jesus came secretly in 1914 – "its all clearly spoken of in the Bible".

The fact is that anyone can find in the Bible exactly what he has been conditioned to find there by his religious biases.

The Bible as such, according to the Bible, is not the Word of God. The Word of God is God and the object of worship. Bibliolatry is a form of idolatry – nature worship.

[noname]

But when scripture states "All Scripture", then we make 'all' not mean 'all' anymore. 

hey jabcat,
my take on this...we should tread carefully with the above statement by Paul...
you already assume that Paul's writings are "Scripture"...the Jews did not see his writings as "Scripture"...and they had the original "Scripture" ie the OT

so what is Paul then saying?...that his own letters are "Scripture" because he says so? even if it is not recognized by the very people "Scripture" was given to? mmm

as far as the Word of God goes...I do not only see the Bible as His ultimate Word...I see His Word in the wonder of nature...in the brilliance of the Universe...in the good in people...God is everywhere my friend! :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Hey noname...thanks for chiming in...I'm not sure Paul said His writings were scripture, as I understand, they were accepted as such by the ecclesia a little afterward because of what was considered their authenticity..also, as far as the Jews not recognizing such, my thought is, they also generally didn't recognize the Messiah, so I'm not sure how valid their viewpoint on that would be.  At some point God blinded (the majority?) of them.  I agree God is everywhere, but I'm thinking right now regarding what I consider to be His written Word to us...God's blessing.

[SeekerSA]

Even if our texts are altered or deliberately destroyed to hide some truth from us by the early church fathers, what is important, the Holy Spirit was never handicapped by this.  He reached us all through the myriad of lies and deceit.
Blessings

Hey Bernie.  As you're probably seeing, I'm inclined to say we should be very careful with God's Word and revere it for what I believe it is, His spoken words to us, and that we'll be held accountable for how we handle it.  I have been looking wrt the above (and similar) statements some and not coming up with anything that looks as if it's from an unbiased source, i.e., either one side invested in proving authenticity, or the other often trying like heck to disprove the Bible.  Do you have any further information on the "altered texts/deliberately destroyed" topic, or have any good links where that could be examined?  Thanks, James.

There are many articles out there on the net.  Textual criticism is a deep rabbit hole.

Based upon a few findings, that most agree upon like 1 John 5:6-8 is altered/changed/add-on, I am satisfied that the scrips we have cannot be considered inerrant.  The scholars of the traditional church will not stand by or publish exposes due to their biases.

The text I cited above was the mainstay of trinitarians and now that it is at best questionable, they use other scrips.  Biblegateway has this comment:

1 John 5:8 NU-Text and M-Text omit the words from in heaven (verse 7) through on earth (verse 8). Only four or five very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek.

Yet the text survives in KJV versions in italics, other translation simply omit then completely.


Blessings

[jabcat]

I'll look some more, but again, I'm looking for some sort of unbiased information and have had trouble finding it...I'm not real interested in reading what openly avowed atheists have to say, or on the other hand, what extreme religious fundamentalists have to say.  Maybe I'm being too picky, but I think I know that bias distorts the presentation of information...I'm familiar with the John/trinity text you mentioned, and I don't doubt that...I'd just be interested in how much of that type of thing exists, or if it's just a few such obvious instances, thus not making scripture quite as suspect as may be argued at times...Also, I'm not saying the scrips we have are inerrant, but I would still have to come down on the side of believing the originals were.  Which brings up a point.  Could that be what some of the folks on TM are meaning when they express doubt about scriptural authenticity, i.e., the copies we have vs. the originals?  God's blessing, James.

[SeekerSA]

The link I provided is an article by Robert Brimsmead that I republished.  He has taken most of his stuff off the net and declared himself an Atheist probably because of all the hate mail he received.

He falls in the same anathema category as all CU/UR scholars are by mainstream.  In fact what I discovered in his writings were profound truths many in CU espous.  At his age (late 60's) he is probably no longer interested to teach and or defend.

He was big in the SDA church and as you know, they too do not believe in ET but annihilation, similar but not the same.  I believe he came to much realisation that took him out of the SDA.  The SDA still have many of his early writings.

On my blog, there are a number of articles I could get before some of the last sites closed down.

Blessings

[jabcat]

I'll check him out as well as others, thanks.

[Kratos]

Jabcat,

This may mean nothing to anyone, but me. I was trained in scientific method in college and told that one way that a hypothesis becomes a theory, and then, becomes a scientific law is by testing to see if it always works as proposed. In other words, if a hypothesis cannot be measured directly, we assume that it is true and test to see if what you have proposed always works in every situation.

I was taught as a "hypothesis" that God forever settled His Word in Heaven before the foundation of the earth and that He has watched over that Word so that it would accomplish what He sent it out to do. And here is the big one, that the 66 books contained in our Bible in their original languages is this Word of God.

After well over 20 years of testing this hypothesis in my life, this "hypothesis" has gone beyond a theory to be the truth in my life. I have many times doubted parts of the Word as having come down to me as the Word of God only to be proven wrong as God has proven to me that even these difficult portions of the Bible were indeed His Word.

Beyond my own personal experience, for over 2000 years non-believers and liberal theologians have claimed that the Bible was not the written Word of God, but they are all dead and buried and the Bible remains the largest selling book in the world and billions have staked their lives and eternity on what has been written within its covers.

This becomes like the testimony of the man healed of blindness and asked whether Jesus was a sinner or not. All He could say was that he was once blind and now he sees. Experience trumps theory every time, but often only to the one who has had the experience.

In closing, I add my voice to those who have committed their lives and eternity upon the "hypothesis" that the Bible is the Word of God who can be trusted and it is impossible for Him to lie. This is my story and I am sticking to it. It reveals my sure foundation so my life is built on solid rock and not on sinking sand.

Can I get an "Amen"?

I know that there are others that have a different testimony. They no longer serve God because they have not found the God of the Bible to be faithful to perform His Word. I cannot comment on that because that is their life experience. I only know that this has not been my testimony.

John