Jesus's victory over the devil/evil through His "moral influence"/example.

[DanielB]

I am a person who doesn't understand and honestly hasn't put a whole lot of effort into understanding what the main purpose of the crucifixion and resurrection was/is. This is not so much a question as it is some of my understanding of some of what Jesus achieved.

I have heard at least summaries of various theories and the only thing I feel confident about is that the penal substitution theory is not true(or at least significantly different than my understanding of penal substitution theory) and that the "moral influence" theory is true(assuming I understand it). That allows room for other theories to be true(many christians if not most christians hold the moral influence theory along with at least one other). I have heard the Christus Victor theory as Jesus somehow achieving a huge victory of satan but I have not understood it(I do think that the moral influence theory is basically a huge victory over evil). My understanding and experience has been that Jesus saves or transforms people by revealing his love and truth by his crucifixion. I think he can use it to open eyes and kick the lies out of people's lives. I personally was very blind and under the influence of some huge lies(more so than now I mean) but I think Jesus's example was extremely transforming and eye opening. Some of the truth that Jesus revealed(that I can think of) is that everyone has unimaginable value(because we are appraised by God to be at least as valuable as himself!), what to do with power or dominion(anyone with power, dominion, advantage, or any kind of authority or strength over others should follow Jesus's example rather than more conventional ways of using these things), the meaning of true greatness(that true greatness leads one to value the smallest and most pathetic and vulnerable of beings), he is a simply incredible role model for peacefulness or gentleness(he had the most powerful army at his disposal and I assume he could have destroyed any person, mob, or army that was against him but he chose peace of his own will rather than an inability or lack of courage),  and just revealed love and the beauty and literal awesomeness of God in general.

I have seen people speak of the moral influence theory as if it were insufficient or not quite worth it on its own but I think people underestimate it. Can you imagine how much more goodness and how much less evil would be in the world if everyone knew(I mean if it really sank in rather than just physically hearing the words) about what Jesus revealed with the crucifixion? I think many of us would be willing to face a lot of suffering and sacrifice if it would save the world in such a way but God is more loving and selfless than us. The world is an incredibly blind place and people are under the influence of the most absurd and harmful lies(just look at how people evaluate the worth of themselves and others or what people think their value is dependant on).  I am open minded to other compatible theories and I strongly suspect that one of the other theories is also true(just because the moral influence theory on its own does not seem to make sense of what is said in scripture about the crucifixion and resurrection). That is my understanding of things.

[ed]

Part of the Christian faith is that Jesus is alive and with us.   He overcame death by getting up.   

I think that we do the same thing.  We overcome death by getting up.  We get up because we have the example of Jesus Christ who lives in the world through us.  Jesus is God with us!  As the body of Christ, Jesus is us, in the world, showing the resurrection in every day life.

What is with Jesus dying?   We all die.   One has risen and given that hope for all of humanity, that is Christ victorious.

[Dandelion]

I believe Jesus came to save us, to teach us, and to bring God to humanity, in a way we could never have imagined ourselves.

But, I believe that foremost, He came to conquer Death, and bring us hope of an everlasting future, spent with our God. I believe, also, that He came to transform all of us, into the body of Christ, Himself.

But, Jesus came because He was the only sacrifice that was acceptable. A sinless God, who was the only Son of God, the Father, who was the sacrificial lamb, without blemish. Yet, He was fully God, and fully Human, so that He could represent us. He was one of us, yet without sin. Only He could conquer death and rise again.

He also completed the Law, because the Law was ultimately about Love.

I don't think we can look at Jesus' sacrifice, on the cross, as only for an example for us. God is loving, God is merciful, but God is also just. There had to be some reconciliation for our sins. Jesus was the only one that could do that. As the Christmas Carol says, God and sinner, reconciled.

Jesus came to fulfill this passage in Isaiah.

Isaiah 53New King James Version (NKJV)

53 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they[a] made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Here is the passage in which Jesus read part of Isaiah's prophesy to the people, and proclaimed He had come to fulfill it.

Luke 4:16 - 21

16Then Jesus came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. As was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath. And when He stood up to read, 17the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:

18"The Spirit of the Lord is on Me,
because He has anointed Me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim deliverance to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."f
20Then He rolled up the scroll, returned it to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fixed on Him, 21and He began by saying, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

D.

[anti_nietzsche]

For me the significance of the cross rests on three main points:

1) A counterweight against guilt and sin. It's like a pair of scales, on the one scare there is our guilt, which is proven, and on the other scale there is Jesus' sacrifice. No matter what has happened, the weight of the Jesus scale is bigger, because Jesus is the Son of God who is more precious than our sin. What is normally seen as a reason for God to be against us, his lordship and glory and weight against our sin and evil and guilt, now counts in our favor. On the cross the enmity is buried forever.

2) To bring to light life after death. Sometimes humans have not believed in an afterlife for all, and such knowledge had also been away from the Israel of Jesus' time. So when Jesus came to speak about it and in death and resurrection to prove it, it gave us a new fresh breath. I think the afterlife is cosmic nature and did not start with Jesus in Judea. It also includes all life, not just human souls. But Jesus came to prove it to us anew because he could rise from the dead literally and spoke to many people in Jerusalem.

3) This point is closely attached to the 1st point. Normally justice follows faith in the kingdom of God, but human faith can be shaky or even absent from us entirely. For  the God of love to reach the faithless, justification has to rest on something else than this persons faith. I believe it rests on Jesus' faith and on the cross. With the cross, everyone has a chance in the kingdom. In the faith we always struggle, but the cross is already finished and we needn't struggle anymore. It even says so in the bible, "It is finished!", Jesus said on the cross.

[jugghead]

It can be as simple as this .....

How else could God prove that life has more power than death, He had to let Him die to PROVE that He had power over it through the resurrection

If nothing ever died how could anyone comprehend the power of life?

[GodIsLove]

I think that Jesus was living his teachings (turn the other cheek, love your enemy) in a very real way to show how it's done.

Jesus died because he was (at least partly) human and all humans die.

He died the way he did because people wanted to kill him because they were living in darkness and couldn't comprehend his teachings.

He died at the hands of those who hate him to show God's character (forgive them they know not what they do) and to show how to act in the face of evil (do not resist), and to show perfect love (There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends).

He rose again to come back and show us that life continues after death and that death has no power/sting. 

:2c:

[DanielB]

Thanks, those are all good points. As I said, I do not believe in the moral influence idea to the exclusion of understandings. I am aware that he also saves us from death and sin and anything else we need saved from.

The purpose of my post here was basically to say "Let's not forget this when considering what Jesus has achieved from the time he was born into the world to the time he ascended."

[ed]

Thanks, those are all good points. As I said, I do not believe in the moral influence idea to the exclusion of understandings. I am aware that he also saves us from death and sin and anything else we need saved from.

The purpose of my post here was basically to say "Let's not forget this when considering what Jesus has achieved from the time he was born into the world to the time he ascended."

Much greater then his short lifetime achievements on earth, are His achievements in the body of Christ in the present administration.   His life on earth was short............unless you conciser that His life on earth continues on in each and ever believer.     I'm thinking that was the goal of His short life in the flesh.   His short life in the flesh was purposed for "greater works then these" in and through those that would believe and find a living Christ. 

[marie glen]

I figure our Heavenly Father had two options - rational creatures, or no rational creatures ever.

:Chinscratch: And that its natural for rational creatures, sooner or later to wander away from 100% agreement and obedience to Him.. if even in some tiny way. There is no tiny way..! He is Perfect, and Life.

And :gsmile: He engineered it all in such a way that all "in heaven and earth" are going through this all together at once.. This unavoidable journey and lesson - of less than 100% stellar character and it's natural results. Unbreakable results as His spiritual natural law is a rod of iron. It cannot be broken. To wander from God/Life/Perfection is to be imperfect the opposite of life and can only ever end in 'crashing and burning ' as the saying goes.. the smoke of which will rise up age unto age/never forgotten.. writing.. deeply etching, Truth, full understanding of good and evil / life and death upon every heart, mind and psyche. Ultimately programming us.. if you will.. but better than being a non rational, unable to think, ponder and wonder kind of creature/creation.. my  :2c: anyway..

Some very good posts in this thread! :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

He engineered it all in such a way that all "in heaven and earth" are going through this all together at once.. This unavoidable journey and lesson - of less than 100% stellar character and it's natural results. Unbreakable results as His spiritual natural law is a rod of iron. It cannot be broken. To wander from God/Life/Perfection is to be imperfect the opposite of life and can only ever end in 'crashing and burning ' as the saying goes.. the smoke of which will rise up age unto age/never forgotten.. writing.. deeply etching, Truth, full understanding of good and evil / life and death upon every heart, mind and psyche.

I agree, and I think these scriptures lend weight to what you have said.

He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Acts 17:26-28

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Ro 11:32

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it,

in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God

. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. Romans 8:19-22

[marie glen]

Amen! Imagine life where all is life.. no decay, corruption, falling apart and fading away of anything.. truly glorious..! :cloud9:

[marie glen]

If God be questioned by someone as to His sincerity, He can forever reply, "is there any greater love than to lay down your life for your friends?" (Jn 15:13)

I read this verse this morning and it seemed (to me) to fit in here :gsmile: