Luke 9:23-26

[ed]

Luke 9:23-26 KJV
[23] And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. [25] For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? [26] For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

So I'm arguing with an eternal death person. Who is Jesus Talking to, and what life will with loose?

Has the the Son come in his glory already?

Thanks
ed

[eaglesway]

There is so much to be lost for those who are ashamed of the Lord Jesus. As Paul says in 1 Cor 3:1

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


The fire burns things up that are in the life lived outside the the grace of God, but the fire saves the life. Personally, I think the fire is already burning, amd I have sufferred substantial loss because of stubborness in pursuing wood, hay and stubble over the  40 years of my Christian walk- but that fire, and that loss, has saved me- both from myself and the further consequences of pursuing my own way. I believe this will carry on in some fashion in the resurrection. I don't claim to kno if it will be a day of burning and intense exposure and regret, or as some teach, an age of it. I tend to believe it will be, whatever it is, appropriate to the degree of the hardness of heart, many stripes or few stripes, according to the individuals need and the depth of opposition within the adversary.

This I kno.... In the presence of the Lord, whose face is "as the sun shining in its strength", within the view of the one unto whom "all things are open" and before whom "evry hidden thing will be brought to light"- whose eyes are "as flames of fire" and out of whose mouth comes a two edged sword, living and active, dividing asunder soul and spirit and "making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart".... No one will stand for long.

"Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father".

"When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."

[ed]

Thanks eaglesway,

I can see that you trust in God, who is love.  So much of Christianity only sees death and fear.  Those who believe that death is forever are one step short of glory.

It is better then ET, but the victory in Jesus is much better then man who saves his own by being smart enough to believe in Jesus.

Anyways some more thoughts on being "cast away" could help.

I'm very thankful for this site where we can throw these concepts around.
ed

[eaglesway]

but the victory in Jesus is much better then man who saves his own by being smart enough to believe in Jesus.

:thumbsup: Yes indeed :o)

The grace of God is so much deeper than we can fathom. From the scriptures, as I read them, it appears that we can be cast away, as regards the faith, for persistence in certain egregious actions or attitudes.

A castaway is lost. The word appolumi, which is often translated destroyed, really means ruined of lost. I personally believe God established chaos as the default testing, so that is we withdraw from the light, we get ruined by degrees appropriate to the persistence of our rebellion or pride or unforgivebess or whatever.

The sad thing is, because of the teachings of much of the so-called "church", believers struggling with sin are often portrayed as deserving of being cast out, when most of the time they simply need forgiveness and the empowerment of the Spirit that reconciliation makes available. ET is a root cause of condemnation and fear, which cut believers off from ther source of victory- because no one conquers sin on their own. For instance, the sin of religious pride, or a critical spirit , is just as much sin as a problem as drug addiction or some sexual sin. Each brings forth chaos. Chaos causes us to seek and to cry out. Eventually God gets through, "Let there be light".... and we begin to see how mich He loves us all, and that breaks the barrier, consumes the veil, and as our confidence in His love grows, so does our ability t walk in the Spirit. I, atone time or another, have been bound by all of the above, and religious pride was the hardest to overcome, and I wasnt even raised in the church. You see, sin takes advantage of the flesh, if we walk in it, and produces the fruit of corruption(dead flesh decays progressively). Resurrection power is that which grows in the "btoken and contrite heart" after God humbles us- like the parable of the prodigal. The father didnt do it to him, other than to let go and let reckless pride take its natural course.

This is why confession was so important in the early church- not as humiliation, but as honesty- so that as long as we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If believers werent struggling with sin there would have been no need to emphasize confession, forgiveness and restoration.

"If you find someone in a fault, those of you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering yourselves, lest you fall into condemnation"

In other words, dont go to your brother or sister in pride that you ar not as they are. Go to them because you are exactly as they are, but you have come a little further under grace- and have some to share some with them.

Even if someone commits acts that are so grievous that they are cast out of fellowship, as Paul said, "for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the Day".... the end result is always repentence, reconciliation and restoration-

So why would God work any differently in the age to come, and suddenly decide that everyone who failed, or as you put it, "wasnt smart enough to believe in Jesus", should be cast off forever in torment.

Really it makes no sense, and the scriptures repeatedly tell us, God does not cast off forever.

For the Lord will not reject forever,

      32For if He causes grief,
            Then He will have compassion
            According to His abundant lovingkindness.

      33For He does not afflict willingly
            Or grieve the sons of men. Lam 3

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

Who is this God I read of in these verses? Surely not the God who punishes forever to no end other than to satisfy unending anger.

[Ross]

Luke 9:23-26 KJV
[23] And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. [24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. [25] For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? [26] For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

So I'm arguing with an eternal death person. Who is Jesus Talking to, and what life will with loose?

I.M.O this is saying that we put to death our own personal efforts on the cross along with Jesus, and acknowledge that He has paid in full.
To not have  personal efforts in the equation seems to be what Paul is talking about is in Romans 9;11-16
   " For even before they were born or had done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to election might stand,
     not because of works,  but because of His call it was said to her,
                 'The older will serve the younger'
    As it is written,
                 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'
   What shall we say then? Is there not injustice on God's part?
   By no means!
   For He says to Moses,
                   'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion'
  So then it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God's mercy."

There is further elaboration through the next couple of chapters about the role of Israel and the gentiles to bring all to the conclusion;
Romans 11;32 " For God has consigned all to disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

This all being to teach us about true love.
Rom 13;10 " Love does no wrong to it's neighbour. THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW."

Leading to Paul's point in Eph 2;7-9  " To demonstrate in the ages to come the incomparable riches of His grace, in kindness to us
                                                   in Christ Jesus. For you have been saved by grace through faith, and this is NOT OF YOURSELVES
                                                   it is the GIFT of God, it is NOT of works so that no one may boast."

[marie glen]

Amen.. Jesus is our Sabbath rest.. within which we are to do NO work..

      ...more thoughts on being "cast away" could help.

I'm very thankful for this site where we can throw these concepts around.
ed

me too!

     :Chinscratch: "cast away"... this got me curious..

BibleGateway search "cast away" (New Testament) brought up 7 verses
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=cast+away&version=NKJV;AMPC;KJV;NIV;YLT&searchtype=all&bookset=4&resultspp=100

1 - Matthew 5:29
If your right eye serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, pluck it out and throw it away. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be cast into hell.

"hell" - G1067, geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer. also says - a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly - REALLY? if biblical, verse please!!
     It also says [Strong's Concordance] - originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, [say whAt??! perhaps in myth, Jewish or not..] a place of punishment for evil [yah, apocalypse, or that is, armgeddon in valley hinnom, Rev 16:14-16]
      and it says, (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom" :thumbsup: )
and says, – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation)-Um, :Chinscratch: I've never seen that, and I've read Rev many times.. tho i do think of Armageddon ending up as a sort of lake of fire, "He comes with fire and His angels.." 2 Thess 1:8

2 - Matthew 13:48
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

"cast" - G106, balló: to throw, cast -- but, anywhere from put to throw.. even translated "bring" twice.. - http://biblehub.com/greek/906.htm

"out" - G1854, exó: outside, without [ http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/13-48.htm ]

..cast outside? seems to fit scripture.. outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.. (on 'day' of judgment?)

3 - Matthew 18:34
And having been angry, his master cast him into prison, UNTIL that he should pay all he owed.

4 - Matthew 22:13
Then the king said to the servants, 'Having bound his hands and feet, cast him out into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.'

cast out - G1544 ekballo: I throw, cast, put out, banish, bring forth, produce [ http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/22-13.htm ]

5 - Luke 9:25
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/9-25.htm

"cast away" here is G622, "apollumi - destroy, perish"
-- I think perishing, without God's intervention by Jesus would be everyone's fate, so imo, it's a very real potential. One we are learning about / have to learn (that it is impossible to wander from God for He is Life.. so.. going that way is not at all wise; go not that way) ..oR, could be one's life destroyed.. and perish in one's own apocalypse.. or the collective one (or ones, in history)..

6 - Luke 12:58 (Young's Lit)
for, as thou art going away with thy opponent to the ruler, in the way give diligence to be released from him, lest he may drag thee unto the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and the officer may cast thee into prison;
  --- In contest, next verse - "I tell you, you shall not depart from there UNTIL you have paid the very last mite."

7 - Luke 13:28
There will be weeping and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being cast forth.
   :Chinscratch: as we know this Jesus spoke to the Pharisees.. along with things like.. "On day of judgment the Queen of the South will rise up and condemn this generation" (He said to the Pharisees) "for one greater than Solomon is here.."

-- cast away, banished.. but not 'forever' ...also what with all the forever verses being actually from the word "aion" (eon, age)...

-- "ashamed of" ("when He comes")

        :Peace2:

[jugghead]

Would not this concept be the same as what we are speaking about in another thread about Paul turning them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh?

A Son can only do what He sees the Father do, so if Paul is also a son, is He not doing what the Father does, turning them over for the destruction of the flesh?

And would not "cast away" be considered the same truth as "cut off" but yet can be grafted back in?

[marie glen]

Jugghead, I would think so, yes... makes sense to me :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Absolutely agree, and beautifully put.