Our Father is eternal, unconditional, unchanging Love.

[deeplyloved]

When in discussion with some who refer to the Love of the Father, they are quick to say, yes, He is a God of Love, but He is also a just God....as if putting an asterisk next to His love as a qualifier.

I know most all of us has heard this more than once; and it probably has been in discussion before on this forum; but can someone address this or refer me to a thread in a previous discussion on this topic.

James 2:12-13 addresses this...any other input is appreciated.

God's Richest Blessings!

[Lazarus Short]

Faced with such an assertion, I remind the asserter that God's justice included sending His Own Son to die for our benefit.

[eaglesway]

13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2

God does judge. It is a facet of His love. Including judging those who have no mercy. People who have no mercy call their judgments righteousness. God calls their judgments unrighteousness.

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment(kolassis, pruning, correction) for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. 2 Peter 2:9

God corrects the unrighteous for the purpose of bringing them to repentance, even as a Father disciplines a child to teach the child wisdom, but always, in the end, His mercy triumphs over His judgment- but not without reference to the conduct and attitudes of His children.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9

Love is so much larger than we can understand. God is in the transformation business.

And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Col 1:21

Many people have come to the Lord through His discipline, which sometimes seems harsh, but is meant to rescue us from our own ways.

It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Heb 12:8

The consolation is that there will come a time when all discipline will have been finished because God's love will have transformed and filled everyone in creation from every age..

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
1 Cor 15:25

This is the beauty in God's plan...

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. Romans 11:32

The end of discipline is repentence, humilty, forgiveness and reconcililiation....

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:19

[marie glen]

Amen! (Laz and EW)   :thumbsup:

It's a puzzle to me if considering and meditating upon His attributes how any attribute can be said to be more prominent than love, when His word says He "is love"! :mshock:

[deeplyloved]

Thanks all!....helps put it in perspective; and M.G., yes, I agree, and am persuaded that the traditions of man have bound up the word, made it to no effect....meditation on our Father's attributes, as you say...His unchanging Love, His goodness, what He's done for us  illuminated by Holy Spirit is so vital.

[Ross]

More and more, for me, the reality of just how deep that love or us truly is, is stated by Paul in;

Romans 8;38,39  " FOR I AM CONVINCED that neither life, nor death
                             nor angels, nor rulers,
                             nor things present, NOR THINGS TO COME,
                             nor powers, nor height, nor depth,
                             NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING,
                             will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Eph 3;18-21 " In order that you may be empowered to grasp with all the saints what is the breadth, and length, and height and depth,
                     and TO KNOW THE LOVE OF CHRIST WHICH SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE,
                     that YOU may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
                     Now to Him Who is able to do far more abundantly BEYOND ALL WE ASK OR IMAGINE according to the power that is
                     working within us; to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus throughout all the generations, for ages and
                     ages. Amen!"

Pretty much seems to be all encompassing.

[darryl]

Amen! (Laz and EW)   :thumbsup:

It's a puzzle to me if considering and meditating upon His attributes how any attribute can be said to be more prominent than love, when His word says He "is love"! :mshock:

:thumbsup: :iagree:

[deeplyloved]

Thanks Ross...wow!!....awesome. powerful scriptures from two of the loftiest chapters in the N.T. right on brother!!!

[Ross]

You are more than welcome- we are indeed to encourage and uplift each other. :dsunny:

[Ross]

p.s  Also love;

1 John 3;1,2 " See what kind of love the Father HAS GIVEN TO US,
                     that we should be called children of God,  AND SO WE ARE!
                     The reason the world does not know us is that it does not know Him.
                     Dear friends, at the present time we are children of God and it is not yet revealed what we will be.
                     BUT WE DO KNOW THAT WHEN HE IS REVEALED WE WILL BE LIKE HIM BECAUSE WE WILL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS."

Have a great day

[deeplyloved]

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Justified i.e., rendered innocent....past tense, finished. also, Heb 10:10.

Other aspects of this:

if God can justify Jacob he could justify any of us...:-)

the unconditional promises of God to Abraham preceeded the Law by some 500 years, and were confirmed to Issac and to Jacob despite their disobedience.

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." Romans 4:8, also, Psalms.

it rains on the just and the unjust. see. Isaiah 55:8-13

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the Lord.
9
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts higher than your thoughts. (but don't stop there, here's the good news, my edit)

10
"For as the rain and snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth,
Making it bear and sprout,
And providing seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11
So will My word be which goes out of My mouth;
It will not return to Me void (useless, without result),
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
12
"For you will go out [from exile] with joy
And be led forth [by the Lord Himself] with peace;
The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you,
And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
13
"Instead of the thorn bush the cypress tree will grow,
And instead of the nettle the myrtle tree will grow;
And it will be a memorial to the Lord,
For an everlasting sign [of His mercy] which will not be cut off."

[sheila]

BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN. OF THE WORLD.John 1;29

   ... and this is ALL THE FRUIT....TO TAKE AWAY ALL HIS SIN.  Isaaih 27;9   Leviathan punished...Jacobs iniquity purged

   Songs 2;3  his fruit was sweet to my taste

[Ross]

11
So will My word be which goes out of My mouth;
It will not return to Me void (useless, without result),
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

One of those key statements!!!
Christ achieved what He had come to do- all preparation for an incredible future.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:   for I know my thoughts for you......thoughts of peace and not of evil,saith the Lord..to give you an expected end.

   Jer 29;11   faith hope[expectation] and love.....love is the substance... God is a spirit..God is LOVE

[jugghead]

A reply I will ask when they say He is also a just God .....

Is it just to save some and not others when we are all guilty of the same thing .... sin?

Is it just to save some and not others when there are none righteous?

Is it just to save some and not others when all fall short of the glory of God?

Is it just to save some and not others when in Adam all died?

The list goes on .....

Man's idea of what is just is to lock away or get rid of evil doers

God's idea of what is just is to lock away or get rid of evil "FROM" doers

[Patinak]

Well said, jugghead!

[Dandelion]

Great, jugghead!

:iagree:

D.

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Could a just God give people just a brief moment in time to live(all flesh is as grass) and then torment them forever for the sins they committed in life? Could He choose some to be forgiven and some to be tormented eternally- when He bound the whole creation in futility(Romans 8) and bound all in disobedience(Ro 11)?

If God is just how can Jesus say, "I did not come to judge the world but that the world might be saved through me?" if the Father had already condemned most of the world to eternal torment. How could He say with a straight face, "For God so loved the world".

Such a God could not be just at all. He would be a liar and a mocker of reason and fairness. A cruel puppeteer. An arbitrary megalomaniac.

Who does that sound like, by the way.......?

[marie glen]

Could a just God give people just a brief moment in time to live(all flesh is as grass) and then torment them forever for the sins they committed in life? Could He choose some to be forgiven and some to be tormented eternally- when He bound the whole creation in futility(Romans 8) and bound all in disobedience(Ro 11)?

If God is just how can Jesus say, "I did not come to judge the world but that the world might be saved through me?" if the Father had already condemned most of the world to eternal torment. How could He say with a straight face, "For God so loved the world".

Such a God could not be just at all. He would be a liar and a mocker of reason and fairness. A cruel puppeteer. An arbitrary megalomaniac.

Who does that sound like, by the way.......?

who? ..does that sound like? ..insert scratching head emoti here.. NoT! who indeed!

[Dandelion]

  8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
            Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.

      9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
            So are My ways higher than your ways
            And My thoughts than your thoughts.

      10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
            And do not return there without watering the earth
            And making it bear and sprout,
            And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;

      11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
            It will not return to Me empty,
            Without accomplishing what I desire,
            And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55

We must also be careful not to make God like us, but for us to become like God.

D.

[jugghead]

We must also be careful not to make God like us, but for us to become like God.

D.

Amen to that Dandelion ...... this is part of what I wrote in the first chapter of the book I am writing:

     The nature of mankind is always, with words, or actions, to have the greatest impact on the person who is being spoken to. When just words do not have an impact on someone, an action or a threat of action will usually do the trick, especially a threat of pain or death towards another. But it doesn't even have to be a threat against you; it can be a threat against someone you love. Evil men use these tactics to get what they want; they threaten others with death or pain to get what they want. To say that God uses these tactics to get what He wants is to say that He is no different than the evil men of this world.

     We also understand that parents use these tactics on their children, a milder form of course, in trying to teach them right from wrong while they are growing up; a threat of a spanking, or a time out or the taking away of something for a period of time. This too is saying that God is no better than any parent in this world because even parents who do not believe in God do these things.

     Even our court system with all its laws are the same way, a threat of being thrown in jail (a loss of freedom) or even a threat of death (a loss of life) in some states. How is it that we can believe that God has not come up with a better way than what we see in this world everywhere all around us every day?

[darryl]

Could a just God give people just a brief moment in time to live(all flesh is as grass) and then torment them forever for the sins they committed in life? Could He choose some to be forgiven and some to be tormented eternally- when He bound the whole creation in futility(Romans 8) and bound all in disobedience(Ro 11)?

God,bound all in disobedience(Ro 11)?...wow, so God deemed and decreed all to be sinners ?...an interesting concept

[marie glen]

We must also be careful not to make God like us, but for us to become like God.

D.

Amen to that Dandelion ...... this is part of what I wrote in the first chapter of the book I am writing:

     The nature of mankind is always, with words, or actions, to have the greatest impact on the person who is being spoken to. When just words do not have an impact on someone, an action or a threat of action will usually do the trick, especially a threat of pain or death towards another. But it doesn't even have to be a threat against you; it can be a threat against someone you love. Evil men use these tactics to get what they want; they threaten others with death or pain to get what they want. To say that God uses these tactics to get what He wants is to say that He is no different than the evil men of this world.

     We also understand that parents use these tactics on their children, a milder form of course, in trying to teach them right from wrong while they are growing up; a threat of a spanking, or a time out or the taking away of something for a period of time. This too is saying that God is no better than any parent in this world because even parents who do not believe in God do these things.

     Even our court system with all its laws are the same way, a threat of being thrown in jail (a loss of freedom) or even a threat of death (a loss of life) in some states. How is it that we can believe that God has not come up with a better way than what we see in this world everywhere all around us every day?

Amen.. that was Old Testament ways, proving it doesn't work! ..Not that I'm for anarchy.. some baser sorts, I hate to say it, do need the fear of retribution.. or that is, of getting caught.. but that's just to attempt to keep others safe, and streets a bit safer.. it doesn't transform the inner person / change the heart.. even if it seems to have done that.. it's the Spirit that brings repentance and change..

[marie glen]

Could a just God give people just a brief moment in time to live(all flesh is as grass) and then torment them forever for the sins they committed in life? Could He choose some to be forgiven and some to be tormented eternally- when He bound the whole creation in futility(Romans 8) and bound all in disobedience(Ro 11)?

God,bound all in disobedience(Ro 11)?...wow, so God deemed and decreed all to be sinners ?...an interesting concept

It amazes me that our heavenly Father by the words "I the LORD create good and create evil" - by this He takes responsibility! [I figure He engineered it so, thus in effect creating evil.. As otherwise why create the universe and man and woman when the adversary's rebellious ruminating was fully mature??

And with His taking and claiming the responsibility.. why would "His justice" demand anyone perish (or worse!!).. No, He paid the ransom, as it's called, and "...while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son" Romans 5:10