Satan

[lduebel]

I found this in an old post: I agree the misrepresentation of Satan started with some shady characters namely, Jerome and Augustin, putting...enmity between the serpent and the woman?

The enmity was needed because Woman did not know she had enemies, she trusted a cunning liar, who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. The enmity was the knowledge of her beguilement, not that they were ever in harmony but that she was unaware of any scheme against her.

There was never any harmony between mankind and Satan, he has always been at war and at odds against mankind trying to make himself their god.

My question: has anyone ever considered that not only did Eve not know that she had an adversary, neither did Adam.  It would seem that God gave Adam the threat of death should he ever eat of the Tree in the Midst of the Garden: The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  However, there is no indication that the LORD ever gave Adam instruction to avoid temptation or even that temptation to disobey God was a possibility.  I have often wondered why Adam, who was WITH Eve when she gave in to temptation, never tried in any way to keep his mate from disobeying God's law.  In fact, once Eve had taken the fruit of the forbidden tree, Adam participated in the transgression.  If this had not been God's object in the first place it just doesn't make sense that because of Adam's sin that all of his descendants would be born sinners, and that there would be a necessity for God to send a Savior, a second Adam,  to take the sin away from mankind.  In some ways this seems like a story that is missing the most important information.  If Adam's sin necessitated a Messiah it would seem that this should have been part of God's warning.  Either that, or there must have been much more indicated by the death penalty than Scripture reveals.

Anyone one have a comment?

[lduebel]

I have been doing a little study and found three Scriptures that indicate that God planned, even before the foundation of the world to provide a Savior. (I Peter 1: 19,20; Ephesians 3:11; and Revelation 13:8)  This being the case it would appear that Adam had no choice but to be disobedient.  I know that theologically we get around this dilemma by saying that there is a difference between God's perfect will and God's permissive will.  That way we can "logically" say that even though God did not WANT mankind to sin, He knew perfectly that he would sin, and made provision. 

This gets more complicated the more I look into it. :Chinscratch:

In addition, Satan told Eve that she could be "like God, knowing good and evil."  That, of course, was only a partial truth.  She was already "like God" because mankind was made in the image of God, but the problem is that it seems to be impossible for God to know evil.  Verses such as James 1:13, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" seem to indicate that God does not know evil.  In fact, when Jesus Christ took upon Himself the sins of mankind, God had to turn His back. I would assume that this is the very reason that the Lord had to take humanity upon Himself, as deity His person would be immune to sin. Help! :doh:

[micah7:9]

"I know that theologically we get around this dilemma by saying that there is a difference between God's perfect will and God's permissive will."

[Dandelion]

I have been doing a little study and found three Scriptures that indicate that God planned, even before the foundation of the world to provide a Savior. (I Peter 1: 19,20; Ephesians 3:11; and Revelation 13:8)  This being the case it would appear that Adam had no choice but to be disobedient.  I know that theologically we get around this dilemma by saying that there is a difference between God's perfect will and God's permissive will.  That way we can "logically" say that even though God did not WANT mankind to sin, He knew perfectly that he would sin, and made provision. 

This gets more complicated the more I look into it. :Chinscratch:

For God, He sees all things past, present, and future, so, He definitely knew what Adam and Eve were going to do. Add to that the fact that He created them, and always knew what they would be able to do and not do. He knew that sooner or later, it was inevitable, that they would sin.

I don't think God's foreknowledge takes away from the fact that Adam and Eve had choices.

D.

[eaglesway]

Adam may have had a choice, because we cannot see the world from a wide enough aperture to understand some of the mysteries and paradoxes of God.

For instance, in this verse....

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The word elect, is eklektois, elect or chosen, "according to the foreknowledge of God". In Eohesians 1 is says.. "we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will"

Somewhere between the foreknowledge of God and predestination, God "causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will." It is possible that God has put things together in such a way that we choose things but they work according to His purpose- regardless if we choose His purpose or not, and that He foresees the choices we will make and has every outcome covered because , "In him we live and move and have our being"- whether evil or good, righteous or unrighteous, we are in Him and He is causing all things to work according to the counsel of His will, whicch is that we will come face to face with Him.

He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children Acts 17

Something about the wording here gives a sense of possibilities leading to one inevitability(thats just my point of view).

In Romans 8.."For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God"..... it is clear(to me at least) God did plan for the fall, and directly intend to use "futility"(sin, death, chaos, entropy) as the earth into which He would plant the seed(logos) of love, Jesus Christ, for the purpose of the restoration of all things in the glorious liberty of the children of God.

But as to whether He gave Adam a choice and foresaw the inevitability of what Adam chose, or whether He made it impossible for Adam to choose the right way, that goes above our paygrade(imo) and is seen through the glass darkly.

In a sense the scene in the garden is playing itself out billions of times a day in the lives of everyone on the earth, as we learn, against this backdrop of chaos caused by the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, as we see here

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. (james 3:14-16)

or learning to be "planted in it"(death, sharing the cross) as we see here

"But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace."

[sheila]

 :2c:  God made man...as a spirit dwelling in a flesh body.  Death was a concept that was very foreign to the angels and satan.  Father used the 'corruptible image" of man...his flesh..which

can not inherit the kingdom of heaven..to cause satan to understand his judgement of death.  the flesh dissolves into nothing...and so,too,shall the adversarial tool made of the dust of heaven.


  satans judgement for rebellion slander,leading into destruction and death,tempting,accusing,decieving,possesing man's body[the temple of God]   ashes to ashes/dust to dust takes on a

whole new meaning...when we realize satan and his 'flesh' are made of dust of heaven..and man's flesh as dust of the earth[......


   when the disciples were afraid He was a ghost..he said..feel and touch me.......a spirit hath not 'flesh" as I have. 


   what's born of the flesh is flesh...and what's born of the spirit is spirit....and satan and his refused Father's and Jesus offer to be born again from above..[free]...come down in flesh and ...die

like a man...that a new spirit creature rise.


  man's flesh...even in the corruptible image...served God's purpose.......though the flesh as a 'servant" does not remain in the household. But showing mercy as unto a son that has served Him

  God shows mercy unto man[you can not  tell a servant from a son while they are immature.]    man's spirit is the son of God.............born from Jerusalem above........and free


    Peace and good will unto all men...unto you a son is given...ALL MEN RECIEVE THE  BIRTHRIGHT OF SONSHIP......and their spirits will return unto God and they shall bear the image

of the incorruptible/immortal one.

[sheila]

   'Lo! I come in the roll of the book...it is written of me!"  just as Jesus flesh body was pierced and and holes in hands/feet/side..and piercings by crown of thorns.  So..too..this has happened

  to His 'word" body...in that tribunals have cast out some of the inspired writings..and labeled them as apocrypha/pseudo-apocrypha.   Enoch/Esdras/Tobit,Adam and Eve etc. :2c:

[eaglesway]

   what's born of the flesh is flesh...and what's born of the spirit is spirit....and satan and his refused Father's and Jesus offer to be born again from above..[free]...come down in flesh and ...die

like a man...that a new spirit creature rise.

Can you further explain what you are saying here?

[sheila]

the corrupt image[whether man or satan/and his] must be born again of the incorruptible spirit. God is no respector of persons..   

[CHB]

Adam may have had a choice, because we cannot see the world from a wide enough aperture to understand some of the mysteries and paradoxes of God.

For instance, in this verse....

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The word elect, is eklektois, elect or chosen, "according to the foreknowledge of God". In Eohesians 1 is says.. "we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will"

Somewhere between the foreknowledge of God and predestination, God "causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will." It is possible that God has put things together in such a way that we choose things but they work according to His purpose- regardless if we choose His purpose or not, and that He foresees the choices we will make and has every outcome covered because , "In him we live and move and have our being"- whether evil or good, righteous or unrighteous, we are in Him and He is causing all things to work according to the counsel of His will, whicch is that we will come face to face with Him.

He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children Acts 17

Something about the wording here gives a sense of possibilities leading to one inevitability(thats just my point of view).

In Romans 8.."For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God"..... it is clear(to me at least) God did plan for the fall, and directly intend to use "futility"(sin, death, chaos, entropy) as the earth into which He would plant the seed(logos) of love, Jesus Christ, for the purpose of the restoration of all things in the glorious liberty of the children of God.

But as to whether He gave Adam a choice and foresaw the inevitability of what Adam chose, or whether He made it impossible for Adam to choose the right way, that goes above our paygrade(imo) and is seen through the glass darkly.

In a sense the scene in the garden is playing itself out billions of times a day in the lives of everyone on the earth, as we learn, against this backdrop of chaos caused by the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, as we see here

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. (james 3:14-16)

or learning to be "planted in it"(death, sharing the cross) as we see here

"But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace."

Amen! My thoughts also.

CHB

[jugghead]

Since forgiveness is proof of God's Love for mankind ..... can mankind even comprehend what forgiveness is (let alone love) if mankind did not sin?

Thus, through the forgiveness of sin, mankind can now comprehend the Love of the Father (the mystery hidden from the foundation of the world)

Sin was necessary in order for mankind to fully comprehend and KNOW the love of the Father

My  :2c: