Why it currently doesn't matter much to me whether sin & law still exists.

[DanielB]

I sometimes see christians debate or preach about the technicalities of sin, law, grace, etc. I have no problem with people debating theological technicalities(whether they have humongous implications or whether they are simply something that people consider to be an interesting discussion) so long as it does not lead to hostility or stupid things(like trying to disown other christians).

I have noticed some things about these discussions that disturb me. It seems that a significant fraction(not necessarily the majority) of one side of the fence seems to act as if every boundary(what we are and are not given permission to do) set by God has been removed and that this opens up opportunities to live a better and freer life than was previously possible. That seems to require incredible naivete about the nature of most of the behavior that God has or had forbidden or set boundaries on. Thankfully, many people who believe and preach controversial things about grace, etc know better than that(they know that freedom is not to be found in thinking/acting selfishly, stealing, pursuing lust without love/commitment, lying, wrathfulness, justifying ourselves, or anything else that goes against the teachings in the gospels). A significant fraction on the other side of the fence totally believes in sin but does not seem to focus enough on why things are sin and so they have poor motivation or even bad motives for doing the right thing and avoiding evil things(that also tends to lead to foolishness like looking for loopholes in the rules).

The most misguided fractions of both camps actually seem to be the same and both envy the same evil lifestyle(of selfishness and futile hedonism) but some are not restrained at all and others are restrained only out of fear of punishment aka cowardice(rather than love for others)

Regardless of who is right or wrong...

It seems obvious and undeniable to me that there is still a lot of evil in the world and slavery/resignation to evil. It is obvious that many actions(including those that have been labeled "sin" whether that is a correct label or not) result in and often come from evil. In my experience, I have not really ever gained anything through behaviors typically considered to be sinful other than learning that there is nothing to be gained from them. I do not recall ever benefiting from lying, stealing, bloodthirstiness, adultery, pride, self-righteousness, hardheartedness, and other evils I have done. I have seen goodness come from doing the opposite. I would not want(insofar as I know better) to behave in those evil ways even if God clearly spoke to me and gave permission. We are not free to do such things regardless of permission because it is logically impossible to be free to tell lies, commit adultery, steal, hate, etc. It is like saying we are free to be unfree.

To be clear, I do not try to make myself "righteous" through self restraint and caring about others. To be honest, I am not very passionate about being righteous and pure and all that(I do believe that I eventually will be like everyone else will be). I am simply concerned with not screwing my life up(the natural and automatic consequence of evil) and wronging others rather than being concerned with all these "legal" matters. I use the Bible as a guide on how to behave(I am not "perfect" obviously) because I believe it results in a better life on Earth for myself and others rather than thinking I am going to achieve righteousness by doing so. It does not matter if I now have permission to roll around on a bonfire, I still won't do so. It does not matter if I am commanded to care about others, I still want to do so(and learn to do so to a greater degree) even if I am not commanded.

That is why I find a lot of the things people say about this kind of stuff to be disturbing. Being more concerned about some legal concept rather than the good of others(a person who cares about the letter of the law but does not know, remember, and or care about the spirit of the law) is a sad way to live and it is equally sad to live in the same way but without restraint(a person who does not believe in the letter of the law and does not care about the spirit of the law).

[marie glen]

Amen!! I think you said that very well! And surely... in our walk with the Lord, there is more to it that that - than being concerned about legalities we may or may not do.. or yikes, the prevalent one of what everyone else should be doing and not doing.. Someone other than me, can preach about that, I can't help it, I'm more interested in loving people into the kingdom.. Or simply loving them.. as you said - Love.

To love for the simple purpose of love. Which love, of course, is God! It's the only way we can give Him away! Only the Spirit knows when someone wants to hear how to find the Lord.. Constantly pushing it off onto them only pushes people away. I learned that very early on! If someone knows you truly have affection for them, they'll tolerate a seed or two from you every so often! "A word in season.." Out of season does not much good. If any. Until their heart is right for the plucking.. so to speak.. The Lord has His ways!

Jesus is the atoning sacrifice, He entered the Most Holy place on all of our behalf, and we can be bold now to enter the very "throne room of grace"! We can offer up the smoke of our offering of prayer etc.. free of fear.. The adversary tries to keep the the people in doubtful fear(s).. It's by 'communion' with His Spirit that we grow. Not by self effort. Pursuing Him, abiding in Him (and His word) transforms us.. Mixing law with grace, I believe robs grace of its POWER. Is this license? As you said so well, who involved in such pursuit of Him, wants to roll around in the mud?! Like Paul wrote, those things lead to death. Where is the allure? If the eye is single (on things 'above') the body will be full of light, and we are led by the Spirit and not the old flawed character which is crucified with Jesus (and is progressively dying, being overcome).
      :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree:

[Patinak]

 :goodpost: DanielB

:goodpost: marie glen

[eaglesway]

Essentially Daniel, I hear in what you say something that is very scriptural. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom".

Once we see that sin is destructive to us, we begin to seek righteousness as a way of life for the sake of deliverance. To some folks this seems hypocritical, but I don't think so. We are kind of dull. We need to be reminded at times that it is God who set up life in this world in such a manner that God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap.

Later, we begin to see the beauty of God's love as the only righteousness, and since we love Him, and desire to please Him, and be like Him, it is no longer a legal issue that must be interpreted from a distance with intellectual calesthenics. We find that even if it causes us great pain, and even if it destroys our lives here on earth, we desire to please Him and love others(the cross).

At the same time however, we also understand that so much of the world is not enlightened to the spirit of grace. Many "Christs" have gone out into the world proclaiming many "gospels". Many think it is all about doing right or wrong and going to hell or going to heaven because of it. Thank God we know that someday everyone will see that "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

The love, and the gratitude, that is born within everyone who understands that verse, is the source of any righteousness that ever flows out of anyone.

"Once I was a raven, scavenging for food,
But I never gave birth to a vultures brood
For I turned into a sparrow when I learned to trust in God
And as my heart filled up with love
I changed into a dove
Then an eagle I became
the Heavenly realms my domain
Now,
All of these three am I
The sparrow, the dove, and the eagle fly
Through the open window of my heart
A single eye."

When the eye is single, the whole body is full of light. Lord, we wait upon you, and we thank you for transforming us from within. Grant us perfect love.

[Patinak]

Sweet words John.

This whole thread is full of wisdom and light!

[Dandelion]

Someone I know, when he preaches, always includes this concept, in the form of a question, asking,"When did you fall in love with Jesus?"

Exactly. Our walk with God is the greatest love story. We give up who we are at this moment, we let go of all our own desires, dreams, and pre-conceived ideas, to see what He has for us. We are willing at any moment to let go of what we are holding tightly to, to pick up and run with what He lies before us. In denying our selves, we become our very best selves.....the selves He created us to be and not who the world says we are or should be. We become refugees in our own world.....no home for us to retreat to, because this is not our home......Heaven is. So, we encounter all sorts of obstacles, opposition, and so on. But, we have Christ with us and in us.......the love of the Father and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We have EVERYTHING, though to the world, it looks like we gave up everything.

1 John 4:3 - 5

...3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time. 4You, little children, are from God and have overcome them, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are of the world. That is why they speak from the world's perspective, and the world listens to them....

John 15: 17 -19

17This is My command to you: Love one another. 18If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first. 19If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world....

1 Corinthians 1:

17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with eloquent words of wisdom, lest the cross of the Christ be emptied of its power. 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."...

We are truly blessed! 

D.

[Ross]

Great posts.
The whole reason man was created seems to learn to be like our Father.
He demonstrated what love is all about.
Paul specifies that sin and law is like being under a guardian until coming of age.
Interesting how many disputes arise about technicalities, trying to justify errors made, instead of admitting the mistake.
Paul makes an interesting comment;

1 Cor 6;12  " All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful.
                   All things are lawful for me, but I will not be  overpowered by anything."

Then adds in;

1 Cor 13;11,12 " When  I was a child I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child.
                         When I became a man, I set aside the childish ways.
                         For the present we are looking obscurely through a mirror, but then face to face.
                          Now I know in part, then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known."

And the piece de resistance;

1 Cor13;13 "Now these three remain, faith, hope, and love;
                   And the greatest of these is love."

I.M.O man attempts love, sees the need for love, but the flesh throws in distractions and affects the basis of values which then majorly  influences decisions.

The spirit, however, makes the point about the fruit of the spirit;
               love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, generosity, self-control;
              against such things there is no law.

I.M.O we are being shown what love literally means in preparation for when we are resurrected to our spiritual state.
At times things may seem pretty harsh here, but the role we undertake in the future needs a firm basis of understanding from which to actually live in the new capacity we receive courtesy of our loving saviour.

Seems to be why Paul say not to be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
The things seen are temporary, the things not seen are eternal.

Seems the flesh is focussing on the present.
The spirit focusses on the heavenly things.

Col 3;2 " Set your minds on things above, not on things on earth."

So many religions seem to be  worried about this age so much, and do not present a future which is positive in every regard; they seem to be panicking, to a certain extent; which then seriously affects the character, and inner peace.

Positive outlook seems to only be possible when you know the outcome is better than the present situation.
Not a wishy-washy things, but a reality of impending changes which man cannot fathom.

But when He is revealed we will be like Him because we shall see Him as He truly is.

By this we have come to know love; that He laid down His life on our behalf.

We know that we have crossed over from death to life, because we love the brethren.
Whoever does not love, remains in the realm of death.

Christ demonstrated His love for us in that while we sere sinners He died for us.
So are we copying Him and putting others first, as Paul mentions to the Phillipians?

So much to learn;
Amazingly He will indeed strip away the flesh as we grow in every regard.

I.M.O sin and law has served, and is serving, it's purpose.
Grace exceeds the law.

[eaglesway]

The funny thing is, that the law becomes the excuse for not embracing the cross.

The rich young ruler said, "All these things I have kept from my youth up", yet he walked away sorrowfully when Jesus said, "If you would be perfect/mature/complete- go, sell all that you have and come follow me."

We all have many posessions. Maybe not exactly as the rich young ruler, but here in the "threshing floor" of life God is separating in all of us the wheat from the chaff, until all we do is for the love of God, and no price is too high to please Him.

Until that time we say, "all these things I have done" or, "all these things I havent done". Jesus calls us, "Come follow me". This is where the sword of the spirit divides asunder soul and spirit, making manifest the secret thoughts and motives of the hearts- and this will always be the place where the division occurs, the holy ground, the temple.

"You would have me to know truth in the inner man"

"A broken and a contrite heart O God, you will never reject"

[Ross]

The funny thing is, that the law becomes the excuse for not embracing the cross.

Indeed many seem to think they have not broken a serious enough law to require the cross.
Yet Jesus highlighted that the one who thinks about doing something wrong is jut as guilty as the one who does something wrong.
The need for the cross is essential in every regard.

[marie glen]

Amen, amen!!

"...He loves us, and by his sacrificial death he has freed us from our sins" ("sin" - #G266 - "sin, failure, missing the mark" He has freed us from our sin, from our failure, from our missing the mark) - Rev. 1:5

We are free! Free to approach His throne room (very throne) of grace.. to receive the help (grace) we need!! (Hebrews 4) And this is the power that saves! if we dilute it - "mix law with grace" I think we rob the gospel of its saving/transforming power.

"There is therefor now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".. "no law against such"as are "led of the Spirit of God"

We really don't have to worry about "the law" as long as we continue in Him and continue being led by His Spirit.. even during a (so called) dry spell, when our hearing is dull(?) still led by His Spirit.. which will reveal to us if we are not forgiving those who trespass against us, or we are not turning the other cheek or going the extra mile, or giving to when asked..

And indeed, we are still imperfect.. We know this (if we don't, then surely, there's a problem!) If we disappoint ourselves, He forgives us! We stand covered by the sprinkling of blood. God perceives us as perfect. As long as we continue believing (knowing) that!

We have been "set free from the law of sin and death". And now we walk in newness of life. We know if we get distance from Him (cares of life, etc) we know to return to Him.. If we are truly following Him, imo, we are free fro worrying about the law and sin. (Not that we are yet perfected, which would be prideful, and a stumbling block.) I think in such a standing - abiding in Jesus, and His word - we should 'cut ourselves some slack'.. just as we do others.. Not excusing ourselves -  we can see ourself as we are, but as we are able to cut others some slack.. so we should let ourselves be free from worrying about the law and how good or not good we are.. just keep following after Him!

A "new law" - Love Him. By that the rest falls into place. If we love Him, we will love our fellow person. One law/rule. Love Him.

Our 'hope' ("expectation!" the greek) is our perfection which Jesus is bringing with Him when He comes... (Unseeing eyes may think by freedom we mean license :doh: :laughing7: but we are following after Him, the things which "lead to death" are things we let fall away and have no desire to resurrect.. our flawed nature of failure has been crucified with Him.

And we are free. Free to love Him.

geesh, I was only going to write a sentence, but i just couldn't seem to spit it out.. Maybe I needed a good review of this truth, the adversary being such an accuser..

           :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

The funny thing is, that the law becomes the excuse for not embracing the cross.

Indeed many seem to think they have not broken a serious enough law to require the cross.
Yet Jesus highlighted that the one who thinks about doing something wrong is jut as guilty as the one who does something wrong.
The need for the cross is essential in every regard.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Cocoon]

I think without the law the cross is meaningless. The one who thinks he has kept the law since his youth doesn't understand the liability laws or the Spirit of the Law. It is by the Law that one is brought to the cross and it's the Law that gives us the cross and the Way by which we are redeemed.