How to deal with people, who won't read the facts on Universalism?

[MinakoChan]

Hello! I emailed a Christian from another website, noticing they had a page on "Jesus teaches hell 101"...the same old "Jesus talked about hell more than, blah blah" lecturing. Immediately I felt triggered, and sent them some useful links(including some from Tentmaker). I figured, giving them the Origin and history of eternal torment would be one of the best; eternalpunishment not true to greek was another; the ifhellisreal articles; Martin Zender's article on Calvinism and Arminianism would seal the deal on eternal punishment.

Not even 24 hours later, this person emails me back with this:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Hi Mimi-

Thanks for writing - I am so glad you contacted me! Because the written
word can sometimes seem cold and unfeeling, please know that I answer in
the spirit of a friendly conversation over coffee at Starbucks.

I am familiar with tentmakers and their false teaching of Universal
Salvation, also known as:

inclusion
inclusionism
the doctrine of inclusion
radical inclusion
radical grace
hyper-grace
Trinitarian universalism
Wider Mercy

These links provide biblical reasons why Universalism is wrong. I do
hope you will study carefully Mimi, because your eternal soul depends
upon you getting this right!

https://carm.org/universalism

http://www.letusreason.org/Curren31.htm

http://www.equip.org/article/love-wins-making-a-contradictory-case-for-universalism/

http://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2015/12/universalism-and-church-fathers.html

http://bit.ly/2fJlwIt

Modern Universalism - At War With the Bible and Reason, 1847 -
http://bit.ly/2gCz5Zc

Modern Universalism Exposed - 1837 - http://bit.ly/2gAFFOl

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/allthealls.html

http://spiritbodysoul.com/recognising-universalism/

http://christianapologeticsalliance.com/2012/11/08/universalism-its-appeal-and-its-error/

Explains why John 14:6 does not support universalism
-http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/2009/08/28/i-am-the-way-teaches-universalism/

God has good news and peace of mind for us when we believe what He says
in the Bible in context.  The most important question to answer right now
is:

Am I sure I am saved?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The material I gave the person, would probably take at least two days to read in it's entirety. Notice, they only mentioned Tentmaker...nevermind the fact, that there is material there not even written by Mr.Gary. I was already familiar with Matt Slick's stuff, which does a horrible job trying to refute Christian Universalism. The info at letusreason, is rambling about:

"Universalism teaches that all religions are worshipping the same God in different ways. This is what is known as syncretism. Some are teaching there are Messianic Muslims, that they can accept certain aspects of Jesus and still go back to practice Islam."

and

"This Gospel of Inclusion states: all are forgiven for the original offence which came through Adam and are SAVED FROM THE WRATH OF GOD that comes as a result of this offence. Inclusivism teaches that un-believers in Christ will avoid Hell if they worship any God as they know it, claiming that God works through all of the world's religious faiths. Even Atheists, Buddhists, etc. who do not believe in a God will go to Heaven and avoid hell. The Bible teaches that the gospel is NOT inclusive by content. It has certain qualifications, one must believe to be saved; this is repeated over and over again. No one is saved without their knowing; they are to make a decision."

This is foreign to what I believe, and what is taught at Tentmaker.  :Chinscratch:

AnsweringJudaism? I don't practice Judaism, I actually follow the Lord Jesus Christ, but okie dokie.  :dunno2:

I need help, guys. What do you guys do, or how would you handle someone not even bothering to read the factual material, you've laid out in front of them on Universalism?

[Lazarus Short]

Plant your seeds and move on...

[Patinak]

Plant your seeds and move on...

Amen!

[marie glen]

Me too! "Amen" that is.. ..being the nerdness that i am, i'll probably find myself looking at some of those "refuting" links..

But.. it's sad.. so many can't even be "Bereans" to actually examine the whole issue/topic for their self, "searching the scriptures to see if those things are so" - examining the verses presented by BOTH sides.. (geesh, this reminds me of politics! i didn't say that out loud did I? :laughing7: )

I have a paragraph I like to use quite often.. to just leave it, like Laz said, plant it like a seed..

The Bibles we read come from a long line. What once were scrolls written in Hebrew, and words spoken in Aramaic went through the Greek language and were likely Hellenized like most other things. Then there was the Latin. So the Hebrew "sheol" where there was "neither doing nor thought" became first "hades" a "place of the dead" and then "inferno". Then came Signor Dante with his entertaining tales. (In the 1300's.) This was after some Norse tribes had brought into the lands their slant on an afterlife, named Helheim, shortened to Hel. And then of course came along (1600's) good King James. Whose heart may have been in the right place, but the translation followed centuries of conditioning.

And, I like this link here, from TM forum - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

But.. we can take someone to water, but we can't make them drink.. as the old saying sort of goes..

[marie glen]

I do hope you will study carefully Mimi, because your eternal soul depends upon you getting this right!

I really 'hate' (or that is, dislike :laughing7: ) these sorts of comments..! But exactly where does it say we must believe in 'hell' or e.t. in order to be "saved"/a believer? I do wish someone would point that one out to me!

I didn't get far in my looking at the refute links.. I felt kind of like.. well.. barf.. (sorry, please excuse my language..)

I like to just quote verses. And I'm pretty much flyby.. drop the verse.. the link, and go on my (happy, tranquil) way.. Even should someone call me names, etc, etc.. "turn the other cheek" "love and pray for those who spitefully use you" (and drop off another verse :laughing7: )
  :Peace2: God bless!

[Seth]

Plant your seeds and move on...

:egyptdance:

[MinakoChan]

Me too! "Amen" that is.. ..being the nerdness that i am, i'll probably find myself looking at some of those "refuting" links..

But.. it's sad.. so many can't even be "Bereans" to actually examine the whole issue/topic for their self, "searching the scriptures to see if those things are so" - examining the verses presented by BOTH sides.. (geesh, this reminds me of politics! i didn't say that out loud did I? :laughing7: )

I have a paragraph I like to use quite often.. to just leave it, like Laz said, plant it like a seed..

The Bibles we read come from a long line. What once were scrolls written in Hebrew, and words spoken in Aramaic went through the Greek language and were likely Hellenized like most other things. Then there was the Latin. So the Hebrew "sheol" where there was "neither doing nor thought" became first "hades" a "place of the dead" and then "inferno". Then came Signor Dante with his entertaining tales. (In the 1300's.) This was after some Norse tribes had brought into the lands their slant on an afterlife, named Helheim, shortened to Hel. And then of course came along (1600's) good King James. Whose heart may have been in the right place, but the translation followed centuries of conditioning.

And, I like this link here, from TM forum - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

But.. we can take someone to water, but we can't make them drink.. as the old saying sort of goes..

Hello everyone! Thanks for all the responses so far. :3

I truly agree with everything that has been said, I know the Lord will continue to bring him into the truth, but I don't feel like responding to anymore emails from that person.  :sigh:
Also, don't forget, that the corruption of Sheol among Israelite thought, goes back to the Babylonian captivity. It's amazing how the Book of Enoch sounds similar to Zoroastrianism, and the Phrarisee's beloved in eternal torment, some thought they it had the great gulf(like in the Parable with Lazarus and the Rich man), others thought there were compartments ontop of each other.

I think everyone should look at the historical information, presented by these two men. (Note, I don't believe in their Hebrew Israelite doctrine, even though they don't hold onto all of the BHI thought)

https://youtu.be/cNVr-Gz2KPg

At the 1:00 mark, they begin to talk about Zoroastrianism.

[sheila]

Many worship what they do not know. Many worship an unknown God. You know not what spirit ye are of.  Away from me ye workers of lawlessness,I know ye

not[said by those crying Lord,Lord..did we not....]  Mystery of God[unknown/hidden things[manna] about God] revealed.  Nothing hidden wil not be revealed  .

   flesh and blood can not reveal these things..but the spirit of Christ and the Father. Laodecian church...believe they have need of nothing.......He counsels them

  to buy of me gold tried in the fire..they are the foolish virgins...that go and buy of those who sell[doctrines of men/all that glitters is not of gold] and miss out

  on the wedding supper of the Lord.  these miss out on this side...........but He will give all these things....each in his own order. Few find the narrow path

  that leads to life...many walk the broad path of   death/destruction in this life...but Jesus saves the many from their sins/errors.


   when He spews them out of His mouth..........=when they rise they will discover that contrary unto their belief........their doctrines/ preaching are rejected

  and had no part in Him..but were doctrines of devils/men...their boasting[did we not do thus and thus] have no place...the Breath of His coming will burn

up the chaff/tares of their errornous understanding....and they shall be saved through that fire....and they will see Him eye to eye..after the fire of His eyes

  burn those errors/tares/chaff up. Then they will see what they had not seen...and hear what they had not heard.The shroud that obscured the Glory will

be removed and their understanding perfected. Their unjust judgements annulled and God's righteous judgement made known. They shall bear the image

and likeness of Christ the incorrupt one..as God Himself finishes their training.


   only God can make grow in  truth/understanding...and many have gone around sowing tares unknowingly.....[I have in the past] and every plant not

planted of Him He shall uproot.   Most fields are a variable mixture of wheat/tares........and He sends forth his angels at reaping/harvest time..to tie into bundles

  for burning and gather into His storehouse.  Matthew 13;43   then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun..in the kingdom of their Father.[all men given the

free gift of righteousness/raised up into the incorrupt/immortal image of Jesus Christ] Who hath ears to hear,let him hear.


   those clothed in strange apparel[doctrines of devils[liars] will not partake of the wedding supper on this side.........those who are 'rich' like the rich man and

Lazarus..have a great gulf fixed between their understandings[Laodecian]..the foolish virgins have bought mens doctrines and have not enough OIL

[understanding]  The WORD of GOD come in flesh[Jesus] and the roll of the book[scriptures] testify of these circumstances. As well as sown in hard places

amongst thorns,birds devouring[rob them of what was given] etc.   30,60,100 also.  We might as well accept this word and reality. Paul wished that his

fellow Israelites would receive it,too.  But this all depends on God's will and timeing....if/when and how any reicieve anything ....and since we do not know

  to  whom and when these things shall be received;all we can do is share these things.....and leave it up to Him.   O" Jerusalem,Jerusalem ..thou that

  killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee,how often would I have gathered thy children togather,even as a hen gathereth her chicks

  under her wings,and ye would not!   See..even Jesus had these same feelings as us. We are not greater than He. 2c:





 

[MinakoChan]

I do hope you will study carefully Mimi, because your eternal soul depends upon you getting this right!

I really 'hate' (or that is, dislike :laughing7: ) these sorts of comments..! But exactly where does it say we must believe in 'hell' or e.t. in order to be "saved"/a believer? I do wish someone would point that one out to me!

I didn't get far in my looking at the refute links.. I felt kind of like.. well.. barf.. (sorry, please excuse my language..)

I like to just quote verses. And I'm pretty much flyby.. drop the verse.. the link, and go on my (happy, tranquil) way.. Even should someone call me names, etc, etc.. "turn the other cheek" "love and pray for those who spitefully use you" (and drop off another verse :laughing7: )
  :Peace2: God bless!

I really do agree with you, the Lord Jesus nor the Father in Heaven, said anything about us needing to believe in this Eternal Torment to be saved.  :dontknow:

[marie glen]

https://youtu.be/cNVr-Gz2KPg

At the 1:00 mark, they begin to talk about Zoroastrianism.

Looks like an interesting video and channel, which I subscribed to, and plan to watch some of their videos while doing kitchen chores, starting with this link you provided, "The Hades Doctrine, Absolute Fables! pt2". I'm at 5:35 right now and it looks very promising.. thanks! I've been keeping an eye open for new videos to watch during 'kitchen chores'! :gimmefive:

[MinakoChan]

https://youtu.be/cNVr-Gz2KPg

At the 1:00 mark, they begin to talk about Zoroastrianism.

Looks like an interesting video and channel, which I subscribed to, and plan to watch some of their videos while doing kitchen chores, starting with this link you provided, "The Hades Doctrine, Absolute Fables! pt2". I'm at 5:35 right now and it looks very promising.. thanks! I've been keeping an eye open for new videos to watch during 'kitchen chores'! :gimmefive:

Praise the Lord! Their Hades Doctrine videos(there are 3 of them) are pretty good. Know what, Marie Glen, if you are anyone else stumble upon good videos or books, let everyone know! :D

I forgot to mention, I'm rewatching part 2, and taking notes on Evernote and mentioning the sources used. Later on in the video they even referenced Thomas Thayer's history of Eternal Torment study. :D

Sorry again for the 3rd edit, this is a tiny bit off topic...but, I'm not even sure if they consider themselves black hebrew israelites, they don't hold the racist view of the other BHI camps. There was another video that was made by them, titled something like "Is YHWH racist?" and they easily debunked the claim of the other BHI groups and they also believe in the NT.  :Chinscratch:

[darryl]

I know several people like this...they old onto ET at all costs...even when I mention that Jesus never uses the actual Greek words for eternal when speaking of 'kolasis' in the afterlife...the NT NEVER uses the actual Greek words for 'everlasting' or eternal when describing the fate of unbelievers in the next life...if it were indeed everlasting, the Holy Spirit would make sure that the actual Greek words that meant everlasting, were used....instead the word 'Aionos', aion etc are used....the ETers ignore this argument

...when I first heard this argument I immediately began doubting the doctrine of eternal punishment....an ETer who holds onto ET in the face of the evidence must be either brainwashed/ deluded or want to believe in ET...either way I find discussing it with them frustrating when they bring up their faulty arguments and I need God's grace to be patient and love them.

[darryl]

 there are over 600 scriptures which reveal Gods sovereign plan to save the whole world and its wonderful news.God is not a monster and He is not going to cast countless billions into some fiery hole of eternal torment where babies,moms,grandmothers,uncles,aunts,sons,and daughters will burn in excruciating pain for all eternity.

God  knew all that would happen with mankind for it is HIS PLAN! The doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hellfire is the most abominable,blasphemous doctrine ever to come out of the minds of carnal man! The doctrine of mans so called free will ?...Gods will is ALL to be saved.We cannot usurp the will of God and His will is the only will that stands.

Does the word ALL not mean ALL to the ETers ?The greek word apollumi is translated in the KJV as lost,lose,and destroy and what did Jesus say He came to seek and save? All who are lost,and destroyed...and who is lost and destroyed thru death? Every single person who has ever lived!

Did Jesus ever put a time line on the parable of the lost sheep,the lost coin, etc.? No He did not.The world of babylonian christianity teaches that there is no chance left for man once he dies

.The teaching of eternal torment in hellfire comes from egyptian folklore and goes against all that is God and love.God IS LOVE and He IS The Father of all spirits and He is capable of going against mans will and savingn them in a moment if He so desires.He did it to Paul who was on his way to kill more christians and \Jesus knocked him right to the ground.

Paul also said he was the pattern after which man will come to God either in this age or the judgment age to come.We dont have to be afraid of Gods judgements for they are designed to correct mankind as a whole and God is still creating (in the aorist tense where the |KJV puts it in the past tense) man in His image and its fulfillment will not take place until AFTER we die and are resurrected to immortality

.Jesus said unless a man is born from above (spirit) he cannot see the kingdom of God and we are given the earnest deposit of the HS in this life and we will not fully be in Gods image until we are resurrected in our spiritual bodies which are indistructible.

[Cocoon]

I am more of a back door kind of gal.  Building a reputation for being orthodox 90% of the time plus having amazing insight into the Bible (thank you Holy Spirit), opens people's ears.  I have learned to ask good questions that get people thinking.   I left my Sunday school class the other day and they told me they always miss me when I don't come.  They say I make the class.  :) 

Proverbs 1 tells us the steps to learning the enigmas of the Bible. 

First you start of simple learning to be careful. Careful in everything and towards everyone because you understand the laws of liability and that we are liable for one another.

Two, you become a young man and learn discretion.  Because wielding a sword can kill both the Spirit and the flesh and so we must take care to know when and how to use the word of God so that we can become physicians that heal and instead of kill.

Three, you become a wiseman and it is here that you become qualified and obligated to teach.  And in teaching others, you increase learning, your learning and the learning of others. 

Four you become a man of understanding and with it the great privilege of understanding the mysteries of the Bible. 

Everyone try's to skip to four before mastering the first.  That's how we get in trouble and spiritually kill others. 

[jugghead]

darkness through the eyes of death becomes hell; that which we are headed to unless "WE" make a choice to follow the light to get to heaven

Darkness through the eyes of life is the grave; that which we are being taken out of by "HIS" choice so we can follow the light to be brought into heaven (Himself)

[marie glen]

https://youtu.be/cNVr-Gz2KPg

At the 1:00 mark, they begin to talk about Zoroastrianism.

Looks like an interesting video and channel, which I subscribed to, and plan to watch some of their videos while doing kitchen chores, starting with this link you provided, "The Hades Doctrine, Absolute Fables! pt2". I'm at 5:35 right now and it looks very promising.. thanks! I've been keeping an eye open for new videos to watch during 'kitchen chores'! :gimmefive:

Praise the Lord! Their Hades Doctrine videos(there are 3 of them) are pretty good. Know what, Marie Glen, if you are anyone else stumble upon good videos or books, let everyone know! :D

I forgot to mention, I'm rewatching part 2, and taking notes on Evernote and mentioning the sources used. Later on in the video they even referenced Thomas Thayer's history of Eternal Torment study. :D

Sorry again for the 3rd edit, this is a tiny bit off topic...but, I'm not even sure if they consider themselves black hebrew israelites, they don't hold the racist view of the other BHI camps. There was another video that was made by them, titled something like "Is YHWH racist?" and they easily debunked the claim of the other BHI groups and they also believe in the NT.  :Chinscratch:

I'm loving it! Best teaching or study I've ever heard or read on this!! I'm not quite done watching this one you posted - pt 2 "hades doctrine absolute fables! - And they back the title up so well!

They are also interesting, a little entertaining, which to me doesn't matter.. I just love the learning.. but they're fun! And that's surely a plus!

I don't know that much about the different groups/denominations, etc, that are out there.. Just about every one, or that is, every one/group? erring in some way (point of doctrine/belief) none of us yet being in all truth? But the more accurate the better!! And it's good to hear they are avoiding the snares you mentioned!
       :banana:

I'm rewatching part 2, and taking notes on Evernote and mentioning the sources used. Later on in the video they even referenced Thomas Thayer's history of Eternal Torment study. :D

Yes! I thought that was awesome about Thayer's "history of e.t. study"! ..Since his concordance is very much used, you'd think more would take note of that book! I haven't decided if I'm going to watch pt 2 again before watching pt 1 and then 3 (#3 is titled pt 3 of 3). Not sure I can wait that long to watch part 1, but I'm definitely going to watch part 2 again!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

...either way I find discussing it with them frustrating when they bring up their faulty arguments and I need God's grace to be patient and love them.

I know.. Right? "turn the other cheek".. "love not just those like yourself" even "pray for your `enemies`" "greet all.. (because) be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" :O

:thumbsup: Amen to all your post!

and this one!

there are over 600 scriptures which reveal Gods sovereign plan to save the whole world and its wonderful news.God is not a monster and He is not going to cast countless billions into some fiery hole of eternal torment where babies,moms,grandmothers,uncles,aunts,sons,and daughters will burn in excruciating pain for all eternity.

God  knew all that would happen with mankind for it is HIS PLAN! The doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hellfire is the most abominable,blasphemous doctrine ever to come out of the minds of carnal man! The doctrine of mans so called free will ?...Gods will is ALL to be saved.We cannot usurp the will of God and His will is the only will that stands.

Does the word ALL not mean ALL to the ETers ?The greek word apollumi is translated in the KJV as lost,lose,and destroy and what did Jesus say He came to seek and save? All who are lost,and destroyed...and who is lost and destroyed thru death? Every single person who has ever lived!

Did Jesus ever put a time line on the parable of the lost sheep,the lost coin, etc.? No He did not.The world of babylonian christianity teaches that there is no chance left for man once he dies

.The teaching of eternal torment in hellfire comes from egyptian folklore and goes against all that is God and love.God IS LOVE and He IS The Father of all spirits and He is capable of going against mans will and savingn them in a moment if He so desires.He did it to Paul who was on his way to kill more christians and \Jesus knocked him right to the ground.

Paul also said he was the pattern after which man will come to God either in this age or the judgment age to come.We dont have to be afraid of Gods judgements for they are designed to correct mankind as a whole and God is still creating (in the aorist tense where the |KJV puts it in the past tense) man in His image and its fulfillment will not take place until AFTER we die and are resurrected to immortality

.Jesus said unless a man is born from above (spirit) he cannot see the kingdom of God and we are given the earnest deposit of the HS in this life and we will not fully be in Gods image until we are resurrected in our spiritual bodies which are indistructible.

AMEN brother darryl!! Especially - Quote:
"Does the word ALL not mean ALL to the ETers ?The greek word apollumi is translated in the KJV as lost,lose,and destroy and what did Jesus say He came to seek and save? All who are lost,and destroyed...and who is lost and destroyed thru death? Every single person who has ever lived!

Did Jesus ever put a time line on the parable of the lost sheep,the lost coin, etc.? No He did not.The world of babylonian christianity teaches that there is no chance left for man once he dies.

The teaching of eternal torment in hellfire comes from egyptian folklore and goes against all that is God and love.God IS LOVE and He IS The Father of all spirits and He is capable of going against mans will and savingn them in a moment if He so desires.He did it to Paul who was on his way to kill more christians and \Jesus knocked him right to the ground."

and, "Paul also said he was the pattern after which man will come to God either in this age or the judgment age to come."

I don't doubt that whatsoever! And I will be keeping my eyes open in God's Word for those verses which say and, or imply it! :thumbsup:

[Lazarus Short]

Plant your seeds and move on...

:egyptdance:

...and walk like an Egyptian.

[marie glen]

I am more of a back door kind of gal.  Building a reputation for being orthodox 90% of the time plus having amazing insight into the Bible (thank you Holy Spirit), opens people's ears.  I have learned to ask good questions that get people thinking.   I left my Sunday school class the other day and they told me they always miss me when I don't come.  They say I make the class.  :) 

Proverbs 1 tells us the steps to learning the enigmas of the Bible. 

First you start of simple learning to be careful. Careful in everything and towards everyone because you understand the laws of liability and that we are liable for one another.

Two, you become a young man and learn discretion.  Because wielding a sword can kill both the Spirit and the flesh and so we must take care to know when and how to use the word of God so that we can become physicians that heal and instead of kill.

Three, you become a wiseman and it is here that you become qualified and obligated to teach.  And in teaching others, you increase learning, your learning and the learning of others. 

Four you become a man of understanding and with it the great privilege of understanding the mysteries of the Bible. 

Everyone try's to skip to four before mastering the first.  That's how we get in trouble and spiritually kill others.

I very much enjoyed your articles about Proverbs 31 (and speaking of Pro 31, what a relief it is when we realize such fruit is His responsibility and work/works/working - HE works, we rest in Him.

Everyone try's to skip to four before mastering the first.  That's how we get in trouble and spiritually kill others.

Amen!

..and, as a side note, just because this following reminded me of it

Four you become a man of understanding and with it the great privilege of understanding the mysteries of the Bible.

it seemed like the Lord ministered to me the other day, this verse "those who are led of the Spirit are sons of God" therefore, I, although fe-male am a son of God.. (how kool is that?! tho I suppose every one knows this, but it's kool nonetheless)

p.s. - I am more of a back door kind of gal too..
                               and back fence.. fellowship over the back fence more than in the organized body.. used to feel a bit 'guilty' about it, kind of.. but in my heart of hearts, not really, but have considered it His will. And now, these days, I'm rather real happy about it!!

[GodIsLove]

Plant your seeds and move on...

:egyptdance:

...and walk like an Egyptian.

:laughing7: