Prov.23:13-14

[micah7:9]

Pro 23:13-14  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Or......

Pro 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from the youth, For should you smite him with the club he shall not die."  You shall smite him with the club And so rescue his soul from the unseen.

I was thinking about this and I thought wow. Many people, including myself once, hold parts of the bible as godly instruction and carried it over in our "born again" experience, when it most certainly has no place imo in our walk.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child," is how it is offered and I wonder now about that instruction. I have been guilty of using that rule. I have not searched, but I cannot recall where I find even an iota of this teaching from Jesus or any of the Apostles. Yet it is a staple in Christian teaching when love is the mantra.  I just found myself wondering how OT teachings are embraced and accepted while the teaching of love is explained. Just wondering. :dontknow:

[marie glen]

hi Micah!

I know! Right? Some folks just love to quote this verse to justify their beating someone.. literally or even just with their words!! Or the villain in a movie.. always that scripture quoting mad man.. this verse fits right in..

But it's interesting that "rod" is #H7626 which is "From an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, that is, (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan:— X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe." ( http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/7626.html )

The Amplified Bible calls it - "a [reedlike] rod" and Young's Literal says "Withhold not from a youth chastisement.." ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs23:13-14&version=YLT;NKJV;KJV;AMPC;GNT )

That sounds more like the Father to me.. and :dunno: ..we've been trying it the opposite for a bit now, and the culture seems to be less and less safe, and it may be my imagination but a lot of kids/young adults seem kind of angry..? Of course it wouldn't be only because we've spared the rod and spoiled the child, but lots of other things are affecting too.

Those translators!! Kind of lacking in fruits of the Spirit? Namely discernment..!

What do you think? "a reedlike branch.." ? When necessary.. can save a lad, or lass, from the path of death/life of sin.. That sounds the most logical to me because of verses like "all the word of God".. "for instructions.." .."to be equipped for every good work.." "meditating in His word day and night.. will be like trees by rivers of water.." .."the washing of the word.." and Jesus' saying "sanctify them in thy truth, thy word is Truth."

Yep, it's them dang translators again!

People do sometimes question the Old Testament wars.. and stonings, too.. and slavery.. which in Israel most was a debt/borrowing system.

The wars were against tribes that were giving live babies into the fires of baal and pounding on drums (tophet? tophets?) to drown out the screams of the burning alive babies. Was God angry? Well, He didn't want any seed of left left on the earth.. (which there was and they've tormented Israel all through history - or so I read :smile: )

And the stonings.. yes, that's rather strict.. but it was only for that one tiny nation, keeping the culture somewhat in shape to receive the Messiah, Son of God? to be swaddling cloths for? (rather than being born in the midst of snake worshipers or something?)

I wonder.. "the helmet of salvation".. "God's Word?" ..knowing we can trust God's Word - as HE delivered it.. The shield of faith, I think of as trust.. trusting Him. The helmet? trusting His Word? (I think I'm onto something.. :laughing7: )
   :Peace2:

[sheila]

....He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.[sword out of His mouth]....potters vessel.....now Jesus is the

    rod/sprout/branch of Jesse..pick up  your cross and follow me..

          ..if the righteous should strike me..it would even be a Blessing

     iron mingled with clay. iron furnance of affliction etc..but they will not cleave unto one another :2c:  we always have

  the adversary[see Job] accusing and trying and sifting like wheat..seeking to devour us..if we stay not close to Him.


    Paul said the nations were as God's servant if we do wrong[fines/prisons/death penalty etc].a form of discipline

   extremism as always..overly wicked=death,overly righteous=death...moderation in all things........


   as a child we received brutal stripes from our step-father....police would not interfere/nor schools when children

or wives were beat by their husbands...then it went from bad to worse and people started dying/being beaten to death

  and laws were passed to "protect" and then they went to the other extreme.........


    this generation is like children in the market place....John the Baptist came neither eating nor drinking..and ye say 'he

hath a devil"...the son of  man come eating and drinking and ye say 'a friend of sinners,a glutton and wine-biber"  too strict

too lenient? lol! God help us all! :2c:

   

   

[Patinak]

Pro 23:13-14  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Or......

Pro 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from the youth, For should you smite him with the club he shall not die."  You shall smite him with the club And so rescue his soul from the unseen.

I was thinking about this and I thought wow. Many people, including myself once, hold parts of the bible as godly instruction and carried it over in our "born again" experience, when it most certainly has no place imo in our walk.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child," is how it is offered and I wonder now about that instruction. I have been guilty of using that rule. I have not searched, but I cannot recall where I find even an iota of this teaching from Jesus or any of the Apostles. Yet it is a staple in Christian teaching when love is the mantra.  I just found myself wondering how OT teachings are embraced and accepted while the teaching of love is explained. Just wondering. :dontknow:

micah7:9,
I thought I was the only one that had problems with this proverb and it's application. 

Personally, I think that that one could put the Hebrew words together with some of the various meanings that they carry and come up with a way different take on what is being presented by most. 

One of the words that I think is often misrepresented in the Bible, is 'discipline'.  If you think of the word 'disciple' (from discipline) you don't instantly think of beating someone to make them a certain way.  If you look at the word that some translate as 'club' in these passages, you will see that it is also has usage as a 'shepherd's implement'.

My take on the proverb is that it is just telling us to teach (discipline, disciple) our children, and in the same way a shepherd uses his rod, guide them to where they need to go (best for their well-being).  This word "rod" is the same word David uses in the 23 Psalm "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me".

I once heard a teacher using this proverb for justifying using the rod on your children, by saying that a shepherd will even break the leg of a wandering sheep in order to keep it from straying, and make sure it was relying on the shepherd.  What a bunch of b.s.!

I wonder if Joseph and Mary read 23:14 and said to each other:  "Says right here, we must beat him with a club to deliver his soul from Hell, so we better do it."

Sorry I'm sounding so sarcastic, but the abuse of this proverb is a pet peeve of mine.

Ah, here it is 12:30 already.  6:15 ain't far away.  Good night.

[Dandelion]

Pro 23:13-14  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Or......

Pro 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from the youth, For should you smite him with the club he shall not die."  You shall smite him with the club And so rescue his soul from the unseen.

I was thinking about this and I thought wow. Many people, including myself once, hold parts of the bible as godly instruction and carried it over in our "born again" experience, when it most certainly has no place imo in our walk.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child," is how it is offered and I wonder now about that instruction. I have been guilty of using that rule. I have not searched, but I cannot recall where I find even an iota of this teaching from Jesus or any of the Apostles. Yet it is a staple in Christian teaching when love is the mantra.  I just found myself wondering how OT teachings are embraced and accepted while the teaching of love is explained. Just wondering. :dontknow:

micah7:9,
I thought I was the only one that had problems with this proverb and it's application. 

Personally, I think that that one could put the Hebrew words together with some of the various meanings that they carry and come up with a way different take on what is being presented by most. 

One of the words that I think is often misrepresented in the Bible, is 'discipline'.  If you think of the word 'disciple' (from discipline) you don't instantly think of beating someone to make them a certain way.  If you look at the word that some translate as 'club' in these passages, you will see that it is also has usage as a 'shepherd's implement'.

My take on the proverb is that it is just telling us to teach (discipline, disciple) our children, and in the same way a shepherd uses his rod, guide them to where they need to go (best for their well-being).  This word "rod" is the same word David uses in the 23 Psalm "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me".

I once heard a teacher using this proverb for justifying using the rod on your children, by saying that a shepherd will even break the leg of a wandering sheep in order to keep it from straying, and make sure it was relying on the shepherd.  What a bunch of b.s.!

I wonder if Joseph and Mary read 23:14 and said to each other:  "Says right here, we must beat him with a club to deliver his soul from Hell, so we better do it."

Sorry I'm sounding so sarcastic, but the abuse of this proverb is a pet peeve of mine.

Ah, here it is 12:30 already.  6:15 ain't far away.  Good night.

Good points, Patinak. Thank you.

D.

[Ross]

Have thought similarly in the past; heard the shepherd breaking the leg thing to tame/discipline the sheep;
Sheep are followers of a good shepherd in the era this was written. The shepherd knew each sheep, walked in front of them, lead them to food and water. At the end of the day would count each one till they were all in the fold.
The rod he had would be used to rescue sheep from precarious positions. Would also be used to kill wild animals that tried to hunt the sheep.
Would seem to even be used to push/guide sheep if they tried to wander from the path led by some distraction.
Modern usage of some older terms is sometimes far from the mark.

Personally I find it interesting to look at the life style/era scriptures were written. Behaviour, dialogue, customs were all different to the current. This could be seen, by some, as the excuse that the bible is not written for the people of today so why listen?
I.M.O the word, the LIVING WORD, is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow- the principles are on-going; man just uses excuses to cover up his own personal efforts/beliefs.

[eaglesway]

The rod is not always, or even primarily, reffering to a physical beating(imo). Jesus will "rule the nations with a rod of iron"/ "He scourges every son He receives" is a NT verse used of the discipline of trials. The rod Jesus referred to among believers was, then take two or three and if he repents you have won your brother, if he does not repent take him beofre the assembly....etc. Words can be the rod. Restriction can be the rod. As a young man with four children(3 sons) and being taught that "born again" philosophy on disciplimimg children, I learned quickly, that even the sparing use of spanking was really inneffective. I had to learn to be more imaginitive and discover the individual "rod" that would be most effective, and not create resentment.

And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,Heb 12:7

Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. Col 3:21

And definitely, the OT is a shadow of the NT.... a fuller clearer revelation that replaced the shadow.

[marie glen]

....He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.[sword out of His mouth]....potters vessel.....now Jesus is the

    rod/sprout/branch of Jesse..pick up  your cross and follow me..

          ..if the righteous should strike me..it would even be a Blessing

     iron mingled with clay. iron furnance of affliction etc..but they will not cleave unto one another :2c:  we always have

  the adversary[see Job] accusing and trying and sifting like wheat..seeking to devour us..if we stay not close to Him.


    Paul said the nations were as God's servant if we do wrong[fines/prisons/death penalty etc].a form of discipline

   extremism as always..overly wicked=death,overly righteous=death...moderation in all things........


   as a child we received brutal stripes from our step-father....police would not interfere/nor schools when children

or wives were beat by their husbands...then it went from bad to worse and people started dying/being beaten to death

  and laws were passed to "protect" and then they went to the other extreme.........


    this generation is like children in the market place....John the Baptist came neither eating nor drinking..and ye say 'he

hath a devil"...the son of  man come eating and drinking and ye say 'a friend of sinners,a glutton and wine-biber"  too strict

too lenient? lol! God help us all! :2c:
   

    :laugh2: :laugh2: ..so true..!


I love the shepherd analogies in this thread.. :Chinscratch: :idea2: :thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod/proverbs2

Good article about the Hebrew words and Jewish mindset regarding this passage

[Patinak]

GIS, thanks for the link, it was satisfying to my soul :thanks:

[rosered]

 I believe very strongly in the Holy Spirit prompting..

You all know how  that goes ,  some Word of God comes to mind and  this  stays with you  and it teaches you  many lessons  in many ways by many things and peoples .
This Thread is one of them !!
Been quiet and still and listening  to what the Spirit  is saying  , leaving  me in a ''kind of weakness ''  and God  showing  His power , strength   and  authority  ,  Those things I used to miss  out on by being to ''busy''   and in Martha mode , missing out being a MARY and just sitting at His feet  taking it all in

I do believe in being born again of a  Spiritual substance and   this babe  in Christ/anointing [His flesh and substance ]  is  holy unto God   and awakened  into  a spiritual realm of all things new  to experience by the substance of faith moving  breathing LIFE into our old dead  mortal bodies ... and the LIVING WORD in power from on High .

This lesson was  a question  ,  Simply asked, The Lord    ''What does it mean precious in the sight of the Lord is the ''death '' of His saints /holy ones ????...
Than I see this post on Proverbs 23  !! About the chastening of the Lord and the scourging every son he  receives   for our benefit   showing us all ,,,,,it  does not depend on us at all  , but can hinder the HOLY SPIRIT   teaching us  , correcting us and  comforting us   , GODS SPIRIT AND WORD  within us  doing the  holy works by  us being still and knowing HE IS GOD !
Being rebuked   of the LORD    as  winds /spirits    adveraries   to Gods desire and course   , puts you back in your place    , humbled and   straighted out    , turned   from one place to another !  I am convinced our whole mortal lives and LIFE lessons   to  learn from  because the death realm is  of the world  ,  and to be in it, but not of it !
   Two realms   co exist   the higher ream of thinking  with Gods presence in it is being seated with Christ  /Son of God in heavenly places   and having the mind of Christ  an obedient Son  doing Gods will , KNOWING HE IS IN AUTHORITY   , having that peace  of Christ and  rest in hope  within your  spirit being  and trust by faith in The One True GOD our Heavenly FATHER  IN   POWER   and   being moved just as  Enoch  and Elijah  was  found honored in Christ BODY '' THE LIVING CHURCH /ASSEMBLY '' , just as the messengers/ angels of God are ascending and descending on the SON OF  GOD /MAN  , LOWERED AND RAISED UP  John  1 

51Then He declared, "Truly, truly, I say to all of you that you will see heaven open and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man." and yet we have the  lower realm of thinking'' carnal mind '' DEATH realm    and all this is contained in CHRIST  , THE DEAD THE LIVING AND LORD OF ALL , HOLDING ALL THINGS IN PLACE ...

IT IS ALL CONNECTED IN  THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BEING THE LIVING WORD IN POWER BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD HIMSELF!!    The dead in  CHRIST RISE FIRST    , BEING  IN  A PLACE OF HONOR BEFORE GOD IN THE BODY OF CHRIST [DEAD AND LIVING   AND LORD OF ALL THINGS ]   LIVING IN HOLY SPIRIT AND CONSUMING FIRE  OF GODS LOVE AND GRACE   UPON YOU !!!   MATT 6 ]
Colossians 1 ...15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,  THE CROSS IS THE POWER OF GOD CHANGING   the worlds   from  the old  to the new ..........

16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
18 And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,
19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
21 And you -- once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,
22 in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself,
23 if also ye remain in the faith, being founded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the good news, which ye heard, which was preached in all the creation that [is] under the heaven, of which I became -- I Paul -- a ministrant.
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly,
25 of which I -- I did become a ministrant according to the dispensation of God, that was given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God,
26 the secret that hath been hid from the ages and from the generations, but now was manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God did will to make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this secret among the nations -- which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,
28 whom we proclaim, warning every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
29 for which also I labour, striving according to his working that is working in me in power.


This chastening is a  BLESSING !!  making unruly children  justified by HIS WISDOM .MOTHER OF US ALL ..

Strong's G2008 - epitimaō
ἐπιτιμάω
Transliteration
epitimaō
Pronunciation
e-pē-tē-mä'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἐπί (G1909) and τιμάω (G5091)
TDNT Reference
2:623,249
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
to show honour to, to honour

to raise the price of

to adjudge, award, in the sense of merited penalty

to tax with fault, rate, chide, rebuke, reprove, censure severely

to admonish or charge sharply


Hebrews 12 God Disciplines His Sons

...5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you.

6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son."

7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?...

Finally   this WORD OF GOD and hoping the Holy Spirit  will anoint it  , setting us on fire  in the good way of  melting off the dross  and elements that must   be removed of the flawed  molten Image   our carnal minds   have made by being so subject to the vanity of this fleeting and mortal life that is quickly being eradicated (of a tree or plant) depicted with the roots exposed,  of this knowledge of good and evil , that we are not to touch nor taste any longer , but eat of the tree of Life  and LIVE ..

Psalm 116Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

116 I have loved, because Jehovah heareth My voice, my supplication,
2 Because He hath inclined His ear to me, And during my days I call.
3 Compassed me have cords of death, And straits of Sheol have found me, Distress and sorrow I find.
4 And in the name of Jehovah I call: I pray Thee, O Jehovah, deliver my soul,
5 Gracious [is] Jehovah, and righteous, Yea, our God [is] merciful,
6 A preserver of the simple [is] Jehovah, I was low, and to me He giveth salvation.
7 Turn back, O my soul, to thy rest, For Jehovah hath conferred benefits on thee.
8 For Thou hast delivered my soul from death, My eyes from tears, my feet from overthrowing.
9 I walk habitually before Jehovah In the lands of the living.
10 I have believed, for I speak, I -- I have been afflicted greatly.
11 I said in my haste, `Every man [is] a liar.'
12 What do I return to Jehovah? All His benefits [are] upon me.
13 The cup of salvation I lift up, And in the name of Jehovah I call.
14 My vows to Jehovah let me complete, I pray you, before all His people.
15 Precious in the eyes of Jehovah [is] the death for His saints.
16 Cause [it] to come, O Jehovah, for I [am] Thy servant. I [am] Thy servant, son of Thy handmaid, Thou hast opened my bonds.
17 To Thee I sacrifice a sacrifice of thanks, And in the name of Jehovah I call.
18 My vows to Jehovah let me complete, I pray you, before all His people,
19 In the courts of the house of Jehovah, In thy midst, O Jerusalem, praise ye Jah!
THE LAW  OF LOVE AND LIFE  THOUGH THE BODY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST    HOLDING ALL THINGS WITHIN HIMSELF   AS THE DEAD SHALL LIVE BECAUSE OF HIS DOING  IT

In Adam all  die  but in Christ all shall be made alive   1 Cor 15  The Order of Resurrection   the dead in Christ rise first and become a part of the LIVING BODY /ASSEMBLY  , BLESSED IN THE SIGHT OF GOD are the death of His saints / holy ones  , given the place of Honor in His sight   as JESUS CHRIST LIVES DOING HIS FATHERS WORKS ...  1 COR 15 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him....

JOHN 5 The Father and the Son
...18Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19So Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these....


I BELIEVE IT IS A NOW THING AND VERY MUCH THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD THE HOLY FATHER IS HOLDING IT ALL IN CONTROL  BY HIS OWN LOVE IN HIS  HEART  ...   :HeartThrob:

[RonnyTX]

Pro 23:13-14  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.  Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Or......

Pro 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from the youth, For should you smite him with the club he shall not die."  You shall smite him with the club And so rescue his soul from the unseen.

I was thinking about this and I thought wow. Many people, including myself once, hold parts of the bible as godly instruction and carried it over in our "born again" experience, when it most certainly has no place imo in our walk.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child," is how it is offered and I wonder now about that instruction. I have been guilty of using that rule. I have not searched, but I cannot recall where I find even an iota of this teaching from Jesus or any of the Apostles. Yet it is a staple in Christian teaching when love is the mantra.  I just found myself wondering how OT teachings are embraced and accepted while the teaching of love is explained. Just wondering. :dontknow:

Micah, I sure know what you mean about this one.  And remembering and liking, what I once heard one preacher say about this. He simply said, why would you take your child rearing advice from a man/Solomon, who ended up having a 1,000 wives and concubines?

[micah7:9]

Thanks to all. I guess the concept is simple, should you believe the bible teaches that people will go to "hell" then you will believe Prov.23:13-14 means that beating a child will instruct the child in the right way.  :Peace2:

[jugghead]

and my  :2c:

My son has a step son that throws temper tantrums almost every time he is told no ..... when I was home this last weekend and he did this when his older sister told him she did not want to play the game he wanted to (she was already busy doing what she wanted)

I sat him down, then settled him down and tried to explain to him that what his sister wants to do is important to her and what he wants to do is important to him, and with this, explained that what she wants to do is just as important as what he wants to do and when he gets angry he is believing that what he wants to do is more important, which of course we know as "not loving others the way you love yourself" otherwise known as selfishness.

Telling a child no with no explanation as to why they were given that answer leaves them in the darkness/confusion and they will react rather than think. So is "the rod" the explanation that keeps them out of confusion?

And afterward I also told his older sister the same thing because she gets upset at times when he doesn't want to do what she does.

The word "discipline" can also be understood as "training" because "train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" (Proverbs 22:6)

So since Proverbs 22 comes before Proverbs 23, shouldn't we take 23 in the context of what was said in 22 about the subject?

So I ask, was I just disciplining the child or was I also training the child?

again, my  :2c:

[Patinak]

Micah, I sure know what you mean about this one.  And remembering and liking, what I once heard one preacher say about this. He simply said, why would you take your child rearing advice from a man/Solomon, who ended up having a 1,000 wives and concubines?

:LH: :LH: That one deserves a double.

[marie glen]

I think if we go too far one way or the other.. we likely err.. Even Jesus said how some may be beaten with many stripes.. There are still some incorrigibles who - especially on judgment 'day' - should reap a little more of what they sowed.. Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, child rapists... etc. in all likelihood should not get off with a 'please try to be nicer in the future'..

And of course, this doesn't mean we should beat our children.. Common sense and logic should tell us that.. Unfortunately man always goes to one extreme or the other, and usually neither extreme will work out very well.

I've raised a lot of children in my day, and they're all different.. Back when I grew up the families had, 8, 9, 10 kids! A parent can't always sit down and have a long chat.. A once in a life time, or even occasional swat on the butt isn't, like the world would say, abusive/going to damage the child.

"Time out" works too, but sometimes is punishment for the parent. And let me tell ya, I've heard some pretty heavy tongue lashing go on (and on and on) when it would have been much more merciful to swat the kid on the butt! Jus sayin'..

:Chinscratch: I wonder.. Solomon must have written his proverbs before He turned away from God (as he was moved along, inspired by the HS).

Man! pretty sad that! Built the temple.. was renowned for his wisdom..

..Then turned away from God and worshiped other 'gods'. Built them altars and sacrificed to them, and got way dissolute in his ways.. Just goes to show, I guess, the sad and sorry state of mankind. Good thing mankind has God's Word to guide us into all truth and equip us.. because we sure can't lean on our own self, mind or heart.. not really..

It's very sad this verse (translation of, or rather understanding of) has been used to justify a wicked heart and actions. How rare, in mankind, is logic and common sense! :sigh:     (Common sense - CS? :laughing7: or CS&L alone disproves the whole 'hell' translations..!)

[GodIsLove]

I think if parental discipline like spanking and time out "worked" we'd see a much better world than the one we live in! All parents try these methods but they fail to produce inner change. Kids may (MAY) behave better in the short term to avoid punishment (selfish motives) but no lasting inner change of heart is evident. We were all kids--don't you remember just getting better at hiding your mischef?? :laughing7:

The thing that changes hearts the most: experience and the natural consequences that arise, and GOD working for us, and in us.

I'm in the thick of parenthood with an almost 5 year old and an almost 2 year old. Most days I think nothing works to change their behavior...but love. My kids' bad behavior is so clearly linked to times that I am distracted, stressed about silly things like money...and in those moments they can't feel my love. I give some consequences and they don't seem to have much effect, we talk a lot about things (at their level of understanding), I do lose my cool and yell at times (and always apologize to them after)...I often worry if I am doing a good job, because as much as I trust God and feel He has and is changing and guiding me, I'm far from perfect...but in the end I think we have to trust God and His path for them, and pray for guidance on how best to support our kids as they grow and partake from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I would love to protect them from the bad in this world. I have already failed at that though, and it's only going to get more complicated as they get older.

If we are to be like Jesus, are there any passages where Jesus spanks or even yells at a child?

[sheila]

   I liked that post JH....understanding....we all have to grow up in WISDOM FROM ABOVE/UNDERSTANDING.  Some things we may understand

  but still not particulary like.,,reaping what we sow in our flesh..as consequences..deals with that[no fun!]  Now..if you understand and still

  do it...many more consequences[stripes] many and few.  the parent expecting better behavior..and more from the child as it grows.

   then you have 'corrupting influences" to deal with..bad associations that will make your teens life two-fold the child of hell/and make

the parents life hell too. or your grade-schooler picking up bullying/violence/eye for an eye mentality[he did it first!]


   we that have children get just a little taste of what HE DEALS WITH! lol!

   For I will not always strive with man..in that he is but flesh.  there come a time when the Father let his prodigal son go..and the full

  reaping of the consequences come upon him. sometimes they will not listen/turned over to satan...when God turns a prodigal over

  you get John wayne Gaceys,Jeffrey Dahmers etc....dead as not bearing the image/chacter of God...but the adversary.


    GIL
   Come,let us reason togather...but it takes two... I'm raising a teen-ager...and just went through some things.He was with me...I asked Him

  what to do...He caused me to say some things..which she wouldn't listen to...and did anyway....and the consequences come down.He worked

the consequences not me[I had totally lost any measure of control/influence over her]



   she hated the very sight of me! lol!   I cried to Him..and prayed....I was losing/lost her.  He said 'It may appear you are loosing her...but

  she can't be taken away from me"  this comforted me..and just a few days later..she told me of seeing Him in a dream/vision...and

   He said 'Now Joezie, you know that I forgive all my children...and so why are you not forgiving other's" she said 'I do!" and she said

  she was shown things where she was rude and treating people badly....and then she said..that HE said ' then what are those seeds

doing in your chest?" and she saw seeds in her chest[seeds of resentment/unforgiveness/bitterness/tares]   She told me...' He practices

tough love,doesn't He ?" and I said 'He can at times"    So go to Him for counsel and help..for they are really His children...and He can

do things you can't!   He continues to look after widows orphans and the fatherless. If HE don't no-one else will...[in the dry]

[GodIsLove]

Missed you Rose! I always love your posts! You and your sis Sheila---I have to read both of them carefully and with my mind in a certain "mode" (Lazarus said "with the inner eye") but when I do read them they bless me with new understanding and things start to come together and fall into place in my mind.

Hope you are enjoying the farm and the grandkids! I keep cycling in and out of peace and craziness over here---God keeps dragging me back to Him when I get distracted by the trials of the world...and trying to manage through them my way versus His. Salted with fire for sure. But when I'm in the moments of His peace it is all worth it, and I see the lessons He is showing me.

[GodIsLove]

Sheila I loved the story of your daughter. Prayer is powerful and when we think things are the bleakest He knows the outcome and if He isn't worried why should we be worried? Of course...Easier said than done!

[sheila]

I am sooo thankful for Him.  when-ever I start to get anxious[and I still do at times] I hear ..'I GOT THIS!" He's the best thing that's ever happened to all of us.

[eaglesway]

Thats for sure!  :cloud9:

[rosered]

Missed you Rose! I always love your posts! You and your sis Sheila---I have to read both of them carefully and with my mind in a certain "mode" (Lazarus said "with the inner eye") but when I do read them they bless me with new understanding and things start to come together and fall into place in my mind.

Hope you are enjoying the farm and the grandkids! I keep cycling in and out of peace and craziness over here---God keeps dragging me back to Him when I get distracted by the trials of the world...and trying to manage through them my way versus His. Salted with fire for sure. But when I'm in the moments of His peace it is all worth it, and I see the lessons He is showing me.

Thanks sis , Still read here   some , but am such a poor writer ...  and sometimes it is just good  for me  to listen  to what the Spirit is saying .

  I know what you mean  about   reading     and being  ''in the Spirit '' of the  ONE TRUE  and LIVING GOD   the giver of   Life & love ,  verses  just ''being ''    and it is  true , you feel  kind of dead and disconnected at times .

  We are all learning about   and experiencing  GOD  :HeartThrob:

So we share   our faith experiences  with one another and begin   to   understand the  ''connection   in Christ ''  with  no divisions   in CHRIST ,  THE HOLY THINGS ABOVE   ,  while being in the HOLY SPIRIT teaching us  truth and Life  .  all things really .   

Amidst   all this earthly turmoil     and divided  in  thousands of ways  and directions  and everyone's thoughts about  Life and  death  and these two laws   that are '' both'' in effect   working in us all ...   The LORD JESUS CHRIST  being the TRUTH and way and LIFE  and holding  by His POWER ALL OF IT  and from death making  ALIVE IN HIMSELF ..

  Thoughts like Wisdom is not extreme   to the left  or right  but in the midst  ,  CHRIST is working from both ends of the extremes   and we get to experience  Life and death here and now and they  are ''ours ''   though Christ our Lord  of the dead and the living . .and those whom  hear His Voice will Live  and they are  the voice of many LIVING waters from Above  :HeartThrob:

   And after reading 2 Cor 13   with these  healed eyes  , very humbled and   realize    GODS grace is sufficient   ,  HIS WORD is living and strong    within us   in a  moving  upwards force ,  far above the body of death , being  in power by  HIS SPIRIT OF LIFE
Because  lawlessness abounds GODS GRACE   just as the days on Noah  to Him ,  found favor in Gods sight  , though the trusting  connection of  communion  with Him   believing without knowing the outcome    , ''blind faith'' if you will ....  Because the Light   is so powerfully strong  from those many voices  like flood waters   below

Psalms 69  .... Everyone and Everything   is   found in Christ  ,  to be perfected , completed   by the   WORD  & SPIRIT OF TRUTH

So simple and yet so profound   a truth !  so we  keep  looking up for our redemption [saving grace ] is drawing nearer to  HIM

LOVE    GOD   and all the family of God so much being made Alive in Christ    :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Missed you Rose!

Thanks sis ,     :HeartThrob:

Oh! I was thinking Rosered was another Rose! :doh: I've been missing you as well! Very nice to see you here! :dsunny: Blessings!

[rosered]

Missed you Rose!

Thanks sis ,     :HeartThrob:

Oh! I was thinking Rosered was another Rose! :doh: I've been missing you as well! Very nice to see you here! :dsunny: Blessings!

Thank you sis Marie   !! :HeartThrob: