my apologises

[chester-blowfold]

I've let you all and the site down.

I've been arguing with ETers on facebook and realised, as I have been advised on here, you can't reason with them.

I apologise to each and everyone of you on tentmaker.

Jesus said you should love your enemy but I can't love them, I hate them, as imho they destroy peoples lives.

[RonnyTX]

I've let you all and the site down.

I've been arguing with ETers on facebook and realised, as I have been advised on here, you can't reason with them.

I apologise to each and everyone of you on tentmaker.

Jesus said you should love your enemy but I can't love them, I hate them, as imho they destroy peoples lives.

Ronny to Chester:
Chester, I can understand what you're saying; but what I want to add, is the following. When I first learned about the lies I had been taught to believe in church, about hell and some other things, I was also so very mad, at some people. So, I simply had to pray and ask God, to help me with that, help me to overcome that and God did. It took time though. It wasn't just an overnight thing, for me. And yes, I know firsthand what it's like to have much of your life destroyed. I've been there and lived it; but God has brought and is still bringing me out of such. :-)

[chester-blowfold]

Cheers Ronny.

[itivino]

From my limited reading and knowledge, I recommend George Macdonald - he grew up in a house with a very strict calvinist mother. From one of my favorites of his, "Robert Falconer":

O rebellious mother heart! dearer to God than that which beats laboriously solemn under Genevan gown or Lutheran surplice! if thou wouldst read by thine own large light, instead of the glimmer from the phosphorescent brains of theologians, thou mightst even be able to understand such a simple word as that of the Saviour, when, wishing his disciples to know that he had a nearer regard for them as his brethren in holier danger, than those who had not yet partaken of his light, and therefore praying for them not merely as human beings, but as the human beings they were, he said to his Father in their hearing: 'I pray not for the world, but for them,'—not for the world now, but for them—a meaningless utterance, if he never prayed for the world; a word of small meaning, if it was not his very wont and custom to pray for the world—for men as men. Lord Christ! not alone from the pains of hell, or of conscience—not alone from the outer darkness of self and all that is mean and poor and low, do we fly to thee; but from the anger that arises within us at the wretched words spoken in thy name, at the degradation of thee and of thy Father in the mouths of those that claim especially to have found thee, do we seek thy feet. Pray thou for them also, for they know not what they do.

[eaglesway]

Yes and Amen!

[marie glen]

.........but from the anger that arises within us at the wretched words spoken in thy name, at the degradation of thee and of thy Father in the mouths of those that claim especially to have found thee, do we seek thy feet.

Amen, amen..

Pray thou for them also, for they know not what they do.

wow..  :thumbsup:
           "Father forgive them.. they know not what they do.."

[marie glen]

I've let you all and the site down.

I've been arguing with ETers on facebook and realised, as I have been advised on here, you can't reason with them.

I apologise to each and everyone of you on tentmaker.

Jesus said you should love your enemy but I can't love them, I hate them, as imho they destroy peoples lives.

I know how you feel! How I haTe coming into a (facebook) discussion supposed to be communicating the "good news" and find images of humans being burned alive and the like.. then on atheist vs christianity, etc.. the atheists aLways sooner or later, bring up 'hell' as their "proof"! (to the debate)

But especially those turn or burn messages, especially with images..

oh. Am I not helping? I have to remind myself.. hate the sin, love the sinner.. the sinner of course being those trying to threaten ppl into belief. I think in some cases they mean well.. after all they think unless someone repents before they die, they will perish (or actually, worse!!)

I try not to get TOO involved.. but try to stay above it and like to stop by discussions and drop bombs.. so to speak :laughing7: that perhaps some true seeker might come across.. my latest one (thanks to EW, brother John, for filling in some blanks for me, and I hope it's accurate enough.. likely pretty simplified, and we may not be in 100% agreement on all points, but that's of course okay) I like to pray for very brief summaries of info (for little seeds) ...as opposed to my own tendency of long windedness..

from my blog and anyone can use it should anyone want to - The Bibles we read come from a long line. What once were scrolls written in Hebrew, and words spoken in Aramaic went through the Greek language and were likely Hellenized like most other things. Then there was the Latin. So the Hebrew "sheol" where there was "neither doing nor thought" became first "hades" a "place of the dead" and then "inferno". Then came Signor Dante with his entertaining tales. (In the 1300's.) This was after some Norse tribes had brought into the lands their slant on an afterlife, named Helheim, shortened to Hel. And then of course came along (1600's) good King James. (Whose heart was likely in the right place I'm sure!)

bless you Chester! ..for trying.. for being battle scarred.. :clapping:

[AgapeWins]

I've also made the mistake of trying to argue online about the fallacies of eternal torment, assuming that others would welcome this news as I did. Man, was I wrong.

Oh, well. At least it taught me to be a bit more careful talking about this with others in real life. Most believers don't seem ready to hear the truth just yet. It took the death of my father to get me thinking about it at all. Before that, "eternal torment in Hell for the unsaved" was just something you had to accept, since that was what the Bible says (or so I thought) and my pastors all agree on, even if they never bring it up.

Though I do wonder if more pastors would consider the idea of universal reconciliation if it wasn't for the fact that their church denomination requires them to accept (and teach) Eternal Torment as part of their Statement/Confession of Faith.

[Patinak]

I've also made the mistake of trying to argue online about the fallacies of eternal torment, assuming that others would welcome this news as I did. Man, was I wrong.

Oh, well. At least it taught me to be a bit more careful talking about this with others in real life. Most believers don't seem ready to hear the truth just yet. It took the death of my father to get me thinking about it at all. Before that, "eternal torment in Hell for the unsaved" was just something you had to accept, since that was what the Bible says (or so I thought) and my pastors all agree on, even if they never bring it up.

Though I do wonder if more pastors would consider the idea of universal reconciliation if it wasn't for the fact that their church denomination requires them to accept (and teach) Eternal Torment as part of their Statement/Confession of Faith.

Good post :thumbsup:

[sheila]

Rev ch 9;11...the scriptures must be fulfilled Chester......the fallen away church in the end/Laodecia are spewed out of His mouth

...and the destroyer is come up from the abyss...the sting is in their talestails/false prophets...that say..unless you receive our

mark/seal of approval...ye shall  be tormented in the fiery furnance hell forever[for that is their origin} they make a covenant

with death..that it won't touch them...just other's. They do not have the power of death/keys..Jesus does..but they do torment

the minds of men with the thought for a time.  Men will pray for death[because of the great torment/mind] but not find it..because

death has no sting!!!!!!O'Death..I shall be thy plagues!!!!   Now those that have the seal of God are not tormented of this

destroyer...For Christ has the keys..and what He opens[iron bars] sets free from the fear of death.


  people in these 'strong holds" and spiritual prison houses are spiritually sick[for I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me]

  failing to discern the body of Christ..feeding themselves freely on grace but exacting 'debts' on other's. Making them go hungry for

  the free gift of life.  God allows this....[if you dont forgive those who trespass against you..the Father will not forgive your trespasses]


       debtor's prison's........we receive double for all our sin[missing the mark of Love and forgiveness which is necessary for true

reconciliation] here on earth. King of pride[reckoning yourself better then any other man/not loving your brother as yourself]


   God becomes our adversary when we resort to unforgiveness...and we become debtors unto Him..and these spiritual prisonhouses

  become our abodes..til we repent. If you visit them feed them with love and forgiveness/and yourself,too  to become reconciled with

God and Christ..and your fellow man

...because they are receiving their judgement as they have judged.Some die/perish in this state[destruction of the flesh that

the spirit may be saved] Jesus rebukes them as having no part of His body while on earth..and this is sufficient for them.......

and they are more than happy to receive from Him the free gift not dependant on their works..with all.  For I will not always

be wrathful,lest the very spirit fail. They lose their reward/commendation........they took the most prominent seat and are told

to move to a lower position.....see the parable to not take the most prominent seat when invited.   Some go to  their death in terror


   judging themselves by what they approved/if they judged themselves with the same scales they judged other's...and are greatly

  relieved and joyful  w ith God's judgements....of Grace to all. Pride/boasting in the flesh is removed from all..one way or another.

  some of us learn this lesson down here.....my child would never do that! and your child do some notorious deed and your pride

knocked down.[shamed before the whole community].or..I thank you I am not like so-an-so........

.you realize what is more important..love and forgiveness and your childstraightened out. Love the most important thing! you could

care  less what other's think!!!!BUT GOD!!


   God has promised 'MY PEOPLE WILL NOT BE ASHAMED" Sins are not re-membered in Heaven..but blotted out..forgive and forget

and treat your fellow man in accord with that! We are all given a good conscience....a new spirit not haunted by past wrongs.....

    for God's heart is greater than our own..it is just joy that 'my son which was dead is alive!" elder sons may receive a gentle rebuke

........before they join into their Father's joy.  There is more joy among the angels of heaven in the repentance of one sinner....

  than in 99 righteous!![cause we all know..not one of them is righteous..no not one!]   we may do a few things well..and He is

always just to commend these things..and His reward is with Him..but we all know we have 'uncomely' parts...a lack. And He

covers this 'Lack" in all of us..with the BEST ROBE....for out of His HEART'S ABUNDANCE HE GIVES FREELY OUT OF HIS GREAT

LOVE UNTO ALL.

    Jesus rules with a rod of iron..be they iron bars of a spiritual prison..or a fiery iron furnace of which He burns off the bindings

of captivity,whether the rod of iron crack our clay vessel to pieces that the spirit be released to return unto the Father.

  Babylon is become a cage of unclean/hateful birds[spirits] a prison house..yet the dove escapes from the fowlers" snare....


  if your brother have anything against you..first be reconciled with your brother..then when you offer a dove.on the altar...maybe the

other dove[spirit of the other man] will be set free.......


  don't be oweing your fellow man anything but to love him....beware lest a bitter root of hate come up in your heart. You are dealing

with powers and principalities in high places,brother! strong-holds. some it's easier to love from a distance..if they persecute you

flee........some places are so full of briars and thorns  lest they pierce you ,you must be fenced in with iron..yourself.......and they

become a trap/snare....and ye be partakers with them.....caged up like a hateful bird...with them....


   when we go to do good..evil is present...and a little evil spoils much good......when they crucified Him they placed a crown of

thorns on His head and pierced Him..yet He said 'Father forgive them..they know not what they do.""  fields overgrown with

thorns and tares are shut up to be burned[all their doctrines/works..found to be of the wicked one and burnt up]  but they shall be

saved through that firetrial/hour of judgement by the very blood of Christ...and shall be loosed.


  Ultimately God and Christ purify us all..that we be without spot or wrinkle.....and treat us with long-suffering in our condition

now./even to the extent of saying..from now on call no man unclean..because of the Blood poured out for all.in order to display His

mercy......unto man..as a vessel of  His mercy.....

  we must never expose our brothers nakedness..but realize they are clothed by Christ's blood, they also have the free gift of eternal life

we may desire that they have more abundant life now..out of love..and share. a lot of them are in a famine for hearing the 'word of

God" and buying bread that is not bread..or eating bread over two days old that has bred worms. to the starving every bitter thing is

sweet!  if sin and error is abounding in them..Grace abounds much more. when one member of the body suffers..we all suffer.

stripes for turning the Father's house into a den of robbers/cast out with the hypocrites/chastisements are all ours. afflictions

  sickbeds/hunger/cold/nakedness,blindness/deafness/paralysis/lameness ..death..all these things are man's expierence........as He

deals with His children.

we suffer for doing wrong/God sees to this..or we suffer for doing good[satan see's to this/sifted]...we take up His cross/or

hang beside Him as a robber/theif if we suffer for doing evil.[eating of tokogae is trespass/thieving in the garden]

all men shall be with Him in paradise..eventually..as the cherub that covereth without sin in the wing of His temple..,,under His feathers

covering with a corner of His garment[Matthew 4;5]   :2c:  see the flaming sword

of His mouth guarding access[see letter to churches] to TOL..see Him warring with the sword of His mouth as He guards it.?

    Jesus and Holy spirit as guarding cherubs of the Word of God.

 

           .

[Seth]

I've let you all and the site down.

I've been arguing with ETers on facebook and realised, as I have been advised on here, you can't reason with them.

I apologise to each and everyone of you on tentmaker.

Jesus said you should love your enemy but I can't love them, I hate them, as imho they destroy peoples lives.

I know where you are coming from C-B. I went through a period of anger when I stopped believing in ET. I thought they had completely hijacked the Gospel and I agree, they do ruin people's lives.

But, do consider that they were probably raised to have these beliefs from childhood. "Forgive them for they know not what they do" is not said without good reason and it doesn't excuse the crucifixion and the seriousness of it.

If I could give you some friendly advice that might help you as it helped me: study or meditate on God's sovereignty. Even if you believe in classic free-will, note that God himself has restrained himself from revealing the truth to them as he could so easily do. He is patient, and meditating on his patience has helped me with my own patience. There is a plan in play here, and they are pieces of the puzzle.

Part of that plan might be to teach you, who have been lucky enough to be brought out of ET, more patience for yourself. Maybe they are meant to rub up against your emotions so that you can practice taking captive every thought and put those emotions where they belong, in their place.

Understanding God's sovereignty has done alot to heal me of my reactive emotions, not that I am perfect about that, but it has taken me a long way from where I was at before.

[Abigail]

Chester, I understand your anger. What might help you to learn to love, actually what helps me, is to remind that we are not fighting against flesh & blood (people), but against powers and principalities. This helps me to see people more as ones that need to be set free instead of to be conquered.

Before I believed UR, I saw humanity as (forever) lost ones and saved ones. Now I see all people as coming from the same father, though many of them still have to be brought back to his heart (yet they ultimately will be). So they are to me my still lost brothers and sisters who don't know the Father's heart yet, and I desire for them to really know the Father's heart toward them (and I know they will!)

As for fire & brimstone teaching, that actually lead me to UR... a lot of people over here in Europe assume ET is true, but never really think of speak about it. They put it on a shelf in the back of their brains somewhere. An (American ;-)) hell preacher woke me up to how ridiculous the belief actually is and made me think twice. The impossibility to unite this belief with the knowing of God that had already been birthed within me, made me so desperate that I was eventually open to God showing me HIS Gospel.

[eaglesway]

Chester, I understand your anger. What might help you to learn to love, actually what helps me, is to remind that we are not fighting against flesh & blood (people), but against powers and principalities. This helps me to see people more as ones that need to be set free instead of to be conquered.

Before I believed UR, I saw humanity as (forever) lost ones and saved ones. Now I see all people as coming from the same father, though many of them still have to be brought back to his heart (yet they ultimately will be). So they are to me my still lost brothers and sisters who don't know the Father's heart yet, and I desire for them to really know the Father's heart toward them (and I know they will!)

As for fire & brimstone teaching, that actually lead me to UR... a lot of people over here in Europe assume ET is true, but never really think of speak about it. They put it on a shelf in the back of their brains somewhere. An (American ;-)) hell preacher woke me up to how ridiculous the belief actually is and made me think twice. The impossibility to unite this belief with the knowing of God that had already been birthed within me, made me so desperate that I was eventually open to God showing me HIS Gospel.

Thank you Jesus!  :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

Chester, I understand your anger. What might help you to learn to love, actually what helps me, is to remind that we are not fighting against flesh & blood (people), but against powers and principalities. This helps me to see people more as ones that need to be set free instead of to be conquered.

Before I believed UR, I saw humanity as (forever) lost ones and saved ones. Now I see all people as coming from the same father, though many of them still have to be brought back to his heart (yet they ultimately will be). So they are to me my still lost brothers and sisters who don't know the Father's heart yet, and I desire for them to really know the Father's heart toward them (and I know they will!)

As for fire & brimstone teaching, that actually lead me to UR... a lot of people over here in Europe assume ET is true, but never really think of speak about it. They put it on a shelf in the back of their brains somewhere. An (American ;-)) hell preacher woke me up to how ridiculous the belief actually is and made me think twice. The impossibility to unite this belief with the knowing of God that had already been birthed within me, made me so desperate that I was eventually open to God showing me HIS Gospel.

Great statement, Abigail!

43You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'i 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,j 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even Gentiles do the same?  Matthew 5

God knows we are all brothers/sisters. He taught us that we are one in Him. So, rather than cut off someone for doing wrong, we must hope, pray, and work towards helping them to draw closer to God. Personally, I don't think arguing gets us anywhere. State your position; be a good example by carrying out your beliefs into your life; show the people with opposing viewpoints great love and respect; pray for them; become knowledgable of what the Bible says; listen to the Holy Spirit's directions and be humble. I think that about covers it.

We all have our difficulties with these matters, Chester. Don't be too hard on yourself.           :friendstu:

D.

[RonnyTX]

Chester, just reading some more in this thread and thinking about 6 or 7 years ago. That was when I told my next oldest sister, that I no longer believed in a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment. I told her such was not in the bible, as it was first written. Oh my, did she really get mad when I said that! I was shocked, at how mad she got! And my oldest sister, she was brought up in the same calvinist teaching church, just as I was; but later, she went with her husband, to a arminian/free will church. Well, at least she likes the way I believe now, better than when I was calvinist in belief. :-)  I also told her, hell was not in the bible and that such put in there, was a mistranslation of some Hebrew and Greek words.  That shocked her and she told me,why, if you can trust the bible, who can you trust? And that reply shocked me and I simply said, why, you can trust God of course. Just shaking my head, about the many wrong things I was taught in church and believed. That because I was taught the lie in church, that all of the teachings of my church, they were from God. And what ever my pastor said from the pulpit, that was the equal of my hearing such from God. I was taught to believe that, when I was real young and what I didn't know then, was what I was really being taught, was to idol worship some people. And I had no idea, that I was being taught to sin in that way. And I'm just so glad, that in time, God taught me better! :-)

[eaglesway]

 :HeartThrob:

That testimony brought tears to my eyes :o)

[chester-blowfold]

Thanks all.

[marie glen]

and she told me,why, if you can trust the bible, who can you trust? ...why, you can trust God of course.

Amen!! ..and we cAn trust His Word.. just not every point of translation by man (though they got a lot right too.. or we wouldn't even have a Bible!) I think that's a big impediment to U.R. that E.T.believes U.R. is not in the Bible! When the opposite is true! E.T. (hell, etc) is not in the Bible.. as it was given by God, that is! And which version is the one we want?!

The Bibles we read come from a long line. What once were scrolls written in Hebrew, and words spoken in Aramaic went through the Greek language and were likely Hellenized like most other things. Then there was the Latin. So the Hebrew "sheol" where there was "neither doing nor thought" became first "hades" and then "inferno". Then came Signor Dante with his entertaining tales. (In the 1300's.) This was after some Norse tribes had brought into the lands their slant on an afterlife, named Helheim, shortened to Hel. And then of course came along (1600's) good King James. Whose heart was likely in the right place I'm sure, it's just the culture was saturated with these other ideas.. That's what happens when you put men's teachings in front of God's words! :faint:

[eaglesway]

From what I have read, King James was locked in a struggle with Rome over sovereignity of states..... Rome was trying to institue a Roman Catholic sovereign monarch in England which was a main motivator for France and Spains wars against England....so there was a heavy political influence that motivated his commissioning of the KJV. He did not necessarily have deep spiritual convictions to seek truth in all matters, and he certainly made sure he had representation for his interests among the translators.

James dissolved the English Parliament on February 8, 1622, following a dispute involving parliamentary criticisms of a marriage proposed by James, of his son Charles to Princess Maria Anna of Spain. King James was quoted as saying,

"Monarchy is the greatest thing on earth. Kings are rightly called gods since just like God they have power of life and death over all their subjects in all things. They are accountable to God only ... so it is a crime for anyone to argue about what a king can do" [1] (http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/PKCS.html)

[jugghead]

Hey CB - Christ got angry and overturned the tables of the money changers ..... that is what you are trying to do in the cleansing of the temple - and what happened afterward, the chief priests and scribes were displeased

You are learning discernment .... and more importantly .....

You are living the life of Christ

and something that might help with your anger towards them is this: keep in mind that every time you speak to them, you words are winged messengers that are building a honeycomb inside those dead lion carcasses

for you are the one with the answer to the riddle (mystery)

[marie glen]

From what I have read, King James was locked in a struggle with Rome over sovereignity of states..... Rome was trying to institue a Roman Catholic sovereign monarch in England which was a main motivator for France and Spains wars against England....so there was a heavy political influence that motivated his commissioning of the KJV. He did not necessarily have deep spiritual convictions to seek truth in all matters, and he certainly made sure he had representation for his interests among the translators.

James dissolved the English Parliament on February 8, 1622, following a dispute involving parliamentary criticisms of a marriage proposed by James, of his son Charles to Princess Maria Anna of Spain. King James was quoted as saying,

"Monarchy is the greatest thing on earth. Kings are rightly called gods since just like God they have power of life and death over all their subjects in all things. They are accountable to God only ... so it is a crime for anyone to argue about what a king can do" [1] (http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/PKCS.html)

Geesh! puts even more light upon that idea of KJ only! And puts the question, "why KJ only?" under even more (common sense) scrutiny!

We can often hear ppl quote the Protestant - Catholic wars (against each other) and their inquisitions as proof of the violence of 'religion' - really they mean of Christianity and Bible based belief - which of course all that was 'religion' used for politics.. was purely human motives (unless we include principalities in spiritual places, that is).

Human history - shocking.