Saved from?

[lduebel]

I understand that Christ saved us. I don't know from what it is that He saved us.  Before His birth the angels announced His name to be Jesus, because He would save His people from their sins.  I do not see where that means He saved us from eternal hell, but it does seem that He saved us from the penalty of sin.  Now I am trying to find out what is the penalty of sin.  As I see it the Lord told Adam that, "ye will surely die."  Since Adam did not proceed to physically die, we must assume that He died spiritually.  I view spiritual death as a separation from the Creator on a spiritual level.

I have read other posts and have found that their are many beliefs concerning hell.  Some say that it does not exist, but the angels that lost their first estate went somewhere, and Psalms tells us that hell hath enlarged her borders. That doesn't make much sense either, because God is omnipresent.  We read that, "If I make my bed in hell, God is there."  Consequently, there must be a literal hell, but apparently its function is for those who are judged and condemned to have the dross removed by the Refiner's Fire.

Does all this mean that if a person does not enter the Kingdom of God and Christ through repentance and faith that that person must be refined before they can enter Eternal Rest in Christ?  Is this what it means to be saved from our sins?  Secondly, what is the wrath of God?

How can God be ALL LOVE, condemn men for their lack of love and forgiveness, and yet be the God that loves His children so much that He will give them what they need, even if it is time in hell?

[marie glen]

hi! And welcome to the tent forums! God Bless! :hiya:

Others here may have other answers to some of these things.. but I myself don't think many at all will go to the lake of fire.. 'hell' is a mistranslation that should read the grave.. and it is thrown into the lake of fire. I used to think for that reason that the lake of fire was annihilation, but now I think it is a 2nd death for the not yet saved, who will not bend the knee upon what surely must be a very long 'day' of judgment (Great White Throne) - and the refining is the 1st death for the saved, and is during this lifetime and they will not be harmed by their 2nd death.. just my opinion of course.. :2c:

I think our heavenly Father is letting the ability to make choices (an offshoot of thinking ability) run its course.. directing it, etc/building in the rescue from the beginning/foundation, that it will prove to all "in heaven and earth" that to wander from God (who surely? is Life itself) can only ever, end in apocalypse.. a wisp of self destructive smoke..

There's really only one verse which could be thought to imply, after this life, no hope and that is when Jesus told the pharisees if they did not repent they would die in their sins.. but to die in their sins, surely? simply means they would rise in their sins.. at the 2nd resurrection, 1000 years after the first one.. I truly think it is only at the end of judgement 'day' that it will be said - those not believing (written in the book of life) will go to the 2nd death/lof/refining fire of God's love. But I have to wonder, how many, after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing the 'day' of judgment.. how many are not going to "believe" and joyfully so, since they heard all their life they would either perish of be tormented for ever.. I do believe upon judgment 'day' there will be outer darkness of heart and much weeping and gnashing of teeth.. and some totally hard cases, despots, predators, or the like or even some who have habitually hardened their heart against Him - the unable to be forgiven sin while being in it.. who may indeed need further refining in the fire of God's corrective love.. same (imo) purifying fire we believers undergo and have undergone during this lifetime.

...the "place" the angels who left their first place went - darkness, locked into judgment - perhaps because now being imperfect they cannot change their course back to perfection, being imperfect, thus locked into and awaiting judgment...

this is why I love the interlinear word for word translations.. Jude 1:6 "angels who left their first place.." clicking the number will show the original word used..
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jude1:6&version=MOUNCE

"The wages" (result) "of sin is death" and we can see Adam and Eve did die, which process began the very day they disobeyed..

"Sin" - the greek - "missing the mark" - imperfection - God being Life and of course Perfection.. imperfection then is the opposite of life..

But God's other option? no rational creatures? ..ever?

I think and believe that the "wrath of God" is the natural consequences of man's (and angel's) reprobate behaviors.. judgment as consequences( :2c: ).. (Obadiah 15) - "The day of the Lord is near for all nations, As you have done, it will be done to you; your deeds will return upon your own head."
:Peace2: :girlheart: God bless!!

this link - 2nd image - is what i believe concerning the 'afterlife' - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html

[Lazarus Short]

1.  God made the heavens and the earth.  Hell was never NEVER NEVER mentioned as part of the Creation/Cosmos.

2.  God told Adam that he would die.  930 years later, he did.  God did not also mention Hell as part of Adam's penalty.

3.  The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death --- just death, not Hell.  "Spiritual Death" is a church term, not Biblical.

4.  Paul tells us that when we die, we are freed from sin (just like the Jubilee), not sent to Hell.  Paul never mentions Hell at all.

5.  Jesus came to save us from our sins, and made #4 possible.  He never said that He came to save us from Hell.

6.  "Hell" is a word from the ancient languages of pagan northern Europe.  It originally meant "covered" and "unseen" just like "sheol."  "Hell" was never in the original text of the Bible, or part of the languages in which it was written.  It is an overlay.

7.  After much study, I could find no convincing proof of Hell in the Bible.  On the contrary, I found Hell to be excluded.

8.  Welcome to the Tent!

[Seth]

I understand that Christ saved us. I don't know from what it is that He saved us.  Before His birth the angels announced His name to be Jesus, because He would save His people from their sins.  I do not see where that means He saved us from eternal hell, but it does seem that He saved us from the penalty of sin.  Now I am trying to find out what is the penalty of sin.

I think you said it above. He would save his people from their sins. That could also be read as "he would save his people from their sin."

Sin is an underlying condition, sin in the flesh, and Romans 7 talks about the motions of sin being a trap, leading to suffering and helplessness.

So, when the Bible says that he came to save his people from their sins, I think it means BOTH the sin itself and the natural consequences that follow from sin: sadness, pain, loneliness, vanity, loss and self-destruction.

[eaglesway]

The penalty phase of sin is, as Seth posted above, the consequences of sin. Looking at sin itself, I would say the scriptures define it as the result of having a broken connection with God. So when Jesus died to save people from their sin/sins, it was, specifically, by re-uniting them with God. If sin is the result of a broken connection with God, which produces death, then that reconnection allows life to flow back in, like a river

            He will comfort all her waste places.
            And her wilderness He will make like Eden,
            And her desert like the garden of the LORD;
            Joy and gladness will be found in her,
            Thanksgiving and sound of a melody.

[marie glen]

1.  God made the heavens and the earth.  Hell was never NEVER NEVER mentioned as part of the Creation/Cosmos.

2.  God told Adam that he would die.  930 years later, he did.  God did not also mention Hell as part of Adam's penalty.

3.  The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death --- just death, not Hell.  "Spiritual Death" is a church term, not Biblical.

4.  Paul tells us that when we die, we are freed from sin (just like the Jubilee), not sent to Hell.  Paul never mentions Hell at all.

5.  Jesus came to save us from our sins, and made #4 possible.  He never said that He came to save us from Hell.

6.  "Hell" is a word from the ancient languages of pagan northern Europe.  It originally meant "covered" and "unseen" just like "sheol."  "Hell" was never in the original text of the Bible, or part of the languages in which it was written.  It is an overlay.

7.  After much study, I could find no convincing proof of Hell in the Bible.  On the contrary, I found Hell to be excluded.

8.  Welcome to the Tent!

I love this Lazarus! I am very partial to, and fond of, lists and summaries and outlines! And this is a very good one!!

I understand that Christ saved us. I don't know from what it is that He saved us.  Before His birth the angels announced His name to be Jesus, because He would save His people from their sins.  I do not see where that means He saved us from eternal hell, but it does seem that He saved us from the penalty of sin.  Now I am trying to find out what is the penalty of sin.

I think you said it above. He would save his people from their sins. That could also be read as "he would save his people from their sin."

Sin is an underlying condition, sin in the flesh, and Romans 7 talks about the motions of sin being a trap, leading to suffering and helplessness.

So, when the Bible says that he came to save his people from their sins, I think it means BOTH the sin itself and the natural consequences that follow from sin: sadness, pain, loneliness, vanity, loss and self-destruction.

Amen! One day for some reason, i started to think that God could only be perfect ...or He too would fade?! And what a ridiculous idea that is! That HE could fade, hence, I don't know why, because it's kind of circular, but i believe He simply hAs to be perfect or He too, would fade.

This being I guess, and along the same lines, because surely(?) He is life itself, the life force.. "In the beginning God.." so everything that was made had to be made of Him.. and the life force, surely is no external thing? But is He Himself.

So that makes imperfection, which would be a missing the mark, which coincidentally is exactly the greek description of "sin" - imperfection, then is the opposite of life.

So I figure we have to be saved from imperfection.. from being flawed.. (not matter, just to clarify, like the gnostics taught, not the flesh as in the body God gave, but the flesh as that imperfect flawed nature and character).

[Not that somehow He made a mistake, or something occurred to us (or heylel) that took Him by surprise! :doh: :laughing7: As if!!]

[marie glen]

The penalty phase of sin is, as Seth posted above, the consequences of sin. Looking at sin itself, I would say the scriptures define it as the result of having a broken connection with God. So when Jesus died to save people from their sin/sins, it was, specifically, by re-uniting them with God. If sin is the result of a broken connection with God, which produces death, then that reconnection allows life to flow back in, like a river

            He will comfort all her waste places.
            And her wilderness He will make like Eden,
            And her desert like the garden of the LORD;
            Joy and gladness will be found in her,
            Thanksgiving and sound of a melody.

Amen! :thumbsup: :cloud9:

[Ross]

I understand that Christ saved us.
Does all this mean that if a person does not enter the Kingdom of God and Christ through repentance and faith that that person must be refined before they can enter Eternal Rest in Christ?  Is this what it means to be saved from our sins?  Secondly, what is the wrath of God?

Christ is the first to be resurrected, so that He can be first in everything.
Some will not even have heard of Christ- they will need to be taught in the coming ages. Hence seems there will indeed be the need to be "refined' so as to learn that position and all the responsibility of said position "In Christ".

By the way- I.M.O eternal rest in Christ is about the position in Christ- not just sitting around twiddling our thumbs.
We will be entering a new age, doing things in the spiritual world with the physical having been considerably altered.
We will see Christ as He is because we will be like Him.

[chester-blowfold]

Lazarus, a quality list you wrote there. Short, sweet and simple so even an idiot like me could understand it.

If you've anymore like that please lead me there.

[dougj7]

You are saved from God's wrath:

CLV 1Th 5:9 for God did not appoint us to indignation, but to the procuring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

CLV 1Th 5:10 Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him.

[chester-blowfold]

dougj7, CLV?

[ed]

dougj7, CLV?

CLV - Concordant Literal Version

Copyright Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/

[Dandelion]

I think we can look at it this way.

To be saved is to surrender to God our lives, our beings.

God wants our hearts and souls. He wants us to put Him first; to surrender our wills for His will for us.

Jesus died to save us from our earthly, materialistic self, to give us the cover of righteousness in Jesus' blood and death on the cross.

Jesus showed us how to surrender to the Father, as He died in obedience. The perfect sacrifice to atone for the justice of our straying from God's will. Perfect because He was God's only son, yet a representivative of us, as He was a human, born of a human mother. God's mercy was shown, in that He sent His only son.

In a way, He saved us from our selves, from our human bodies, born into a fallen world, where we would seek our own will, at least sometimes, and not our Father's will for us.

Jesus' death broke the grip of Adam's sin; the curtain was torn into two, in the temple. God and Man, reconciled.

Romans 5:

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have a peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.

6For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.



My  :2c:

D.

[bushy]

The way I see it, we are being saved from sin. "You shall call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from their sin". There is no hell to be saved from. I don't think anyone is saved yet, but our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. Romans 13:11

He also rescued us from this present evil age. Galatians 1:4  "who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,"  I believe that He did this for every person from Adam on down whether they know it or not and it will become clear in the future for each person.

I see His wrath as what turns us from our way and into the path that leads to life. So we are not saved from His wrath, but because of His wrath. The sacrifice that Jesus made did not satisfy the wrath of God like a song says, but Jesus was on that cross because of the Father's love, not His wrath. The best known verse in the bible, John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son", so it was the love of God that was satisfied by the sacrifice of Jesus, not His wrath.

[CHB]

I noticed no one mentioned death or at least I never saw it. Christ death and resurrection saved us from death, not from dying but death. If he hadn't been resurrected, when we die we would stay dead for the ages.

CHB

[Patinak]

I noticed no one mentioned death or at least I never saw it. Christ death and resurrection saved us from death, not from dying but death. If he hadn't been resurrected, when we die we would stay dead for the ages.

CHB

CHB,
Thanks for this post.  Would you like to expound on your thoughts about the mechanics of salvation from death?  The book of John has quite a bit to say about this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what it means.  So far, my understanding is that before Christ, the dead went to Sheol (lots of different views of Sheol).  After Christ (who has the keys to Hades and Death), now people die, and are resurrected to judgement (lots of different views of judgement) instead of "staying dead".  I have not been given any revelations about any of this, it's just my own thoughts, so I wouldn't mind hearing from others.

Thanks,
Pat

[eaglesway]

I noticed no one mentioned death or at least I never saw it. Christ death and resurrection saved us from death, not from dying but death. If he hadn't been resurrected, when we die we would stay dead for the ages.

CHB

CHB,
Thanks for this post.  Would you like to expound on your thoughts about the mechanics of salvation from death?  The book of John has quite a bit to say about this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what it means.  So far, my understanding is that before Christ, the dead went to Sheol (lots of different views of Sheol).  After Christ (who has the keys to Hades and Death), now people die, and are resurrected to judgement (lots of different views of judgement) instead of "staying dead".  I have not been given any revelations about any of this, it's just my own thoughts, so I wouldn't mind hearing from others.

Thanks,
Pat

Not sure, for myself, that it is mechanical ;o) More like,  fluid and organic and multidimensional.

[CHB]

I noticed no one mentioned death or at least I never saw it. Christ death and resurrection saved us from death, not from dying but death. If he hadn't been resurrected, when we die we would stay dead for the ages.

CHB

CHB,
Thanks for this post.  Would you like to expound on your thoughts about the mechanics of salvation from death?  The book of John has quite a bit to say about this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what it means.  So far, my understanding is that before Christ, the dead went to Sheol (lots of different views of Sheol).  After Christ (who has the keys to Hades and Death), now people die, and are resurrected to judgement (lots of different views of judgement) instead of "staying dead".  I have not been given any revelations about any of this, it's just my own thoughts, so I wouldn't mind hearing from others.

Thanks,
Pat

I don't know exactly what you mean by "mechanics of salvation".
I believe there is more than one reason that Jesus died and there is more than one thing that we are saved from. Micah said in another thread that Jesus died to show us love and how to love,...not exact quote...but I believe it is true. I also believe he died to save us from death, sin, and give us life for the ages, to become like him. I cannot say life eternal because that only applies to God. 

CHB

[Patinak]

I noticed no one mentioned death or at least I never saw it. Christ death and resurrection saved us from death, not from dying but death. If he hadn't been resurrected, when we die we would stay dead for the ages.

CHB

CHB,
Thanks for this post.  Would you like to expound on your thoughts about the mechanics of salvation from death?  The book of John has quite a bit to say about this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what it means.  So far, my understanding is that before Christ, the dead went to Sheol (lots of different views of Sheol).  After Christ (who has the keys to Hades and Death), now people die, and are resurrected to judgement (lots of different views of judgement) instead of "staying dead".  I have not been given any revelations about any of this, it's just my own thoughts, so I wouldn't mind hearing from others.

Thanks,
Pat

I don't know exactly what you mean by "mechanics of salvation".
I believe there is more than one reason that Jesus died and there is more than one thing that we are saved from. Micah said in another thread that Jesus died to show us love and how to love,...not exact quote...but I believe it is true. I also believe he died to save us from death, sin, and give us life for the ages, to become like him. I cannot say life eternal because that only applies to God. 

CHB

I was not inquiring about how you see "mechanics of salvation", I was just trying to get your view point  about how "salvation from death" works.  Everyone(?) who has ever lived has experienced or will experience death, so when you said that Christ's death and resurrection saved us from death, I was just trying to get a better understanding of what you meant by that, you know, the 'mechanics' of it.  I guess I may have made an assumption that you were talking about physical death (yes, I know what they say about assuming :laughing7:). I have read many of your posts, and have respect for your point of view on many things, just trying to gain more insight.   
Pat

[StevenL]

Here's my current (subject to change if and probably when faced with opposing reality) condensed, admittedly darkly understood, view of the 'mechanics' of salvation from death. For the elect priests:

I am a blind and deaf human, born in Adam, subject to flesh, incapable of knowing God.
Eph 2:12  that at that time you were without Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Rom 8:7  because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.

I was DEAD in sin.   Eph 2:1  Also you--being dead in the trespasses and the sins,  Mat 8:22  But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.

At the appropriate time, Gods will that I be born from above was manifested.   Joh 1:13  who--not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but--of God were begotten.  Eph 1:5  in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will,

God appropriated to me the measure of faith that He had planned for me.   Eph 2:8  for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift   Rom 12:3 ..., as to each God did deal a measure of faith,

The old me (in Adam) DIED and a new (hidden) me was raised from death.   Rom 6:4  we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.   Col 3:3  For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.

I received the Spirit of God within me as a down payment of my future state.   2Co 1:22  even He having sealed us, and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.   Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I now have Life eonian or Life pertaining to the ages. 'Eternal life' in King James.   Joh 3:15  that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."  Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life." Joh 5:25  Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living."

What is life eonian?   Joh 17:3  and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send--Jesus Christ;   1Jn 5:20  Yet we are aware that the Son of God is arriving, and has given us a comprehension, that we know the True One, and we are in the True One, in His Son, Jesus Christ. This One is the true God and life eonian."

For the rest of my time in the flesh, I am transformed to be more and more like Yeshua, my salvation being worked out and completed by God.    Php 2:12  So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out, Php 2:13  for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Rom 12:2  and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your proving what is the will of God--the good, and acceptable, and perfect.

My fleshly body dies. My breath leaves. I 'go to sleep' in Christ.   1Th 4:13  And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep (died)...    1Co 15:18  then, also, those having fallen asleep (died) in Christ did perish; (except for a resurrection)

At the resurrection of the just, I am raised to life with a new body. The AGES are still in progress so I still have 'life eonian', or 'life pertaining to the ages', but with an additional benefit...INCORRUPTION AND IMMORTALITY.   1Th 4:16  because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,   1Co 15:42  So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;  1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54  But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory." Isa. 25:8

No human, beside Yeshua/Jesus, the First from among the dead, has immortality until the resurrection from the dead.   1Ti 6:16  the only One having immortality, living in light that cannot be approached, whom no one of men saw, nor can see; to whom be honor and everlasting might. Amen.

The elect Priesthood then take over the government of the world with Yeshua as the Head.  1Co 6:2  Or are you not aware that the saints shall judge the world?   Rev 2:26  '"And to the one who is conquering and keeping My acts until the consummation, to him will I be giving authority over the nations;"

In the ages to come, the Grace of God will be displayed to all through his dealings/salvation of the Ecclesia, God's nation of Priests.   Eph 2:7  that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

All of the above is for the Elect, called-out, the Overcomers. As for the rest, they remain without life until the era of judgment. The mechanics of that... who knows? I'm gonna strive to be part of the Life of the Ages.

How that for some mechanics?  : )  Best I can do. And for all that work, I'm sure somebody has a whole different version of it. But that's ok. I usually learn at least something from everybody's versions and interpretations. It's a dim mirror.

[Ross]

 :gimmefive:
After all; " Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
1 Cor 13;12 For the present we are looking through a mirror obscurely, but then face to face.
                  Now in part; then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known."

I Cor 15;10 " By the grace of God I am what I am..."

2 Cor 4;7 " But we have the treasures in clay pots so that the surpassing power belongs to God and does not come from us."

Christ set us free from the law of sin and death.

[lduebel]

Here are some Scriptures that I believe need clarification.  Acts 5:3 - Peter said Satan filled Ananias to lie to the Holy Ghost.  Luke 22:3 - Satan entered into Judas.  John 13: 2, 27 - Satan entered into Judas; The devil put into the heart of Judas...to betray Jesus.  Matthew 4:10 - Jesus named Satan and said, "Get thee hence..." Matthew 17:18 - Jesus rebuked the devil..and cured the child.  Matthew 8:28 - Two were possessed of devils that Jesus cast out.  Luke 8:2 - Seven devils were cast out of Mary Magdalene.  Luke 8:30 - The demons were many and were called Legion.

I have read other posts concerning Satan, demons, and the devil.  It would seem that the majority feel that these terms represent other things, such as stars that fell to earth.  I am perplexed to understand how Satan can be in the presence of the Sons of God in the book of Job if he was cast out of heaven to? darkness, hell, earth, etc?  If these spirits are being held in bondage, how do they have so much freedom? It is so easy to just dismiss these things and say that the Bible doesn't say much about them, but certainly Jesus Christ and many others recognized possession.  I understand that Jews in the time of Christ had exorcists who were apparently able to cast out demons. Jesus even acknowledged this when He said, "If I cast out by Beelzebub, by who do your sons cast them out?"

I was reading in the posts concerning demons and learned that even some of our members have had experiences with them. In addition, there doesn't seem to be a clear understanding of the purpose for (a place) where God keeps souls until they learn of the glorious gospel of Christ, and are ready to enter into their eternal home.  Since God does not exist in a time frame such as we do, couldn't humanity also enter into this time-less existence, where "once to die, and then the judgment?"  I could see that.  God's judgment is for correction and restitution, and perhaps it is instantaneous.  That would leave Christians in the earthly Kingdom of God/Christ/Heaven which would be the best existence anyway.

Thanks to anyone that has researched these things and has some conclusions. :gimmefive:

[WhiteWings]

I understand that Christ saved us. I don't know from what it is that He saved us.

From theFather.
That's what the orthodox teaching boils down to. theFather sent His only Son to save people from Himself. (His hell, wrath, vengeance, etc)
Something doesn't feel right about that view  :Chinscratch:

[marie glen]

I noticed no one mentioned death or at least I never saw it. Christ death and resurrection saved us from death, not from dying but death. If he hadn't been resurrected, when we die we would stay dead for the ages.

CHB

That's what I believe. ...But I can never leave things at their clear and simple! ..short and sweet :O

I believe God is both Life (itself) and also Perfection, and therefor imperfection (missing the mark/sin - G266) is the opposite of life.

...choice - albeit thankfully very limited - is an offshoot of thinking ability-and is a whole new world/tree of possibilities, namely apocalypse! In that when life crashes and burns - w/o Him, then truth and untruth are unveiled, and engraved upon every heart will be the full understanding of good from evil, which is also life from death.

Yep, saved, rescued from death -

If He hadn't died for us,

when we die we would stay dead for the ages.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Here are some Scriptures that I believe need clarification.  Acts 5:3 - Peter said Satan filled Ananias to lie to the Holy Ghost.  Luke 22:3 - Satan entered into Judas.  John 13: 2, 27 - Satan entered into Judas; The devil put into the heart of Judas...to betray Jesus.  Matthew 4:10 - Jesus named Satan and said, "Get thee hence..." Matthew 17:18 - Jesus rebuked the devil..and cured the child.  Matthew 8:28 - Two were possessed of devils that Jesus cast out.  Luke 8:2 - Seven devils were cast out of Mary Magdalene.  Luke 8:30 - The demons were many and were called Legion.

I have read other posts concerning Satan, demons, and the devil.  It would seem that the majority feel that these terms represent other things, such as stars that fell to earth.  I am perplexed to understand how Satan can be in the presence of the Sons of God in the book of Job if he was cast out of heaven to? darkness, hell, earth, etc?  If these spirits are being held in bondage, how do they have so much freedom? It is so easy to just dismiss these things and say that the Bible doesn't say much about them, but certainly Jesus Christ and many others recognized possession.  I understand that Jews in the time of Christ had exorcists who were apparently able to cast out demons. Jesus even acknowledged this when He said, "If I cast out by Beelzebub, by who do your sons cast them out?"

I was reading in the posts concerning demons and learned that even some of our members have had experiences with them. In addition, there doesn't seem to be a clear understanding of the purpose for (a place) where God keeps souls until they learn of the glorious gospel of Christ, and are ready to enter into their eternal home.  Since God does not exist in a time frame such as we do, couldn't humanity also enter into this time-less existence, where "once to die, and then the judgment?"  I could see that.  God's judgment is for correction and restitution, and perhaps it is instantaneous.  That would leave Christians in the earthly Kingdom of God/Christ/Heaven which would be the best existence anyway.

Thanks to anyone that has researched these things and has some conclusions. :gimmefive:

hi! :hiya:

This makes me think of Jesus saying "I give to you power to tread on serpents and scorpions and nothing shall by any means harm you".. and then the verses about putting on the full armor of God to resist the wiles of the adversary who roams to and fro throughout the earth roaring like a lion seeking whom to devour.. (Oh Lord don't let me be whom!) "Above all taking the sWord of the Spirit" - which we know the sword is His Word - Thy Word is Truth.. Truth cuts through every lie..
        but have I gotten sidetracked?

there doesn't seem to be a clear understanding of the purpose for (a place) where God keeps souls until they learn of the glorious gospel of Christ, and are ready to enter into their eternal home.

I believe some here may believe that..(?) or shades of it (pun intended :laughing7: ) my belief is life, death and resurrection in their literal, most literal meanings

Since God does not exist in a time frame such as we do, couldn't humanity also enter into this time-less existence, where "once to die, and then the judgment?"  I could see that.  God's judgment is for correction and restitution, and perhaps it is instantaneous.  That would leave Christians in the earthly Kingdom of God/Christ/Heaven which would be the best existence anyway.

I can see that too.. but mostly I think of us sort of like being in God's school.. and judgment 'day' being like a really intense review (of all things.. as to what the heck went wRonG?! or in some small instances, right? acts of heroic rescue or some such.. :dunno: the review of all human history. gulp. :eek: a day of weeping.. gnashing teeth even on the part of some.. so many sad, sad stories.. and one whole big sad story..  :Chinscratch: I think He's going to really prove His point.. and drive the lesson home.. I see Him as being - in these stages of the game - very organized and very logical. Not to say it won't be at the same time extremely spiritual..
   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :Peace2: welcome back!