24 Reasons Hell Is Real

[Dandelion]

Hi all. I missed you all this past week. Nice to be back at Tentmakers this morning.

So, you all did a great job of breaking down the misunderstandings and incorrect ways of analyzing what is written in the Bible, IMO. And, of choosing Bible quotes to back this up.

Three of the points I see as emerging often are semantics or the meaning of words and thus, also expressions; interpretation, especially of words pertaining to fire/judgement in light of our view of Hell, (Of course, semantics and interpretation often overlap.) and the third is timing or often, whether the issue discussed needs to happen before we die or whether it can happen after we die.

So, this is good to see, I believe, and this is also one reason a cite, such as ours, is so useful. When we consider explaining and/or sharing this with others, it is great to have this kind of information.

I also think we need to emphasize the point that Jesus cannot be the Lord of All and yet so many people are in Hell. How can the devil be defeated if he still has half or so of mankind in bondage, with Him? Is that the image of Jesus as the ultimate savior of the world that we speak of?

Also, Love Never Fails. ( 1 Corinthians 13:8)

One simple statement, and yet, for me, it seems to sum up many other Bible quotes that reflect God's never ending and never failing love for us.

How have we for centuries preached this, simultaneously with the concept of an everlasting Hell?

If God is as we all say He is......all powerful, all knowing, all loving.....then He can find a way to reach us all. It might take time, but it can be done.

If love never fails, then, I believe, it will be done.

God's Love is said to never end. God cannot go back on His Word; He is constant and never changing. In our 'throw away' society, we often forget that the goal is that all love never ends. Even if we sometimes fail, He cannot. Even the theory that we choose Hell for ourselves, not God, does not seem adequate for a God who promises everlasting love.

Many, as I used to, believe that God does not put us in Hell, but that we choose it. For me, at this point in time, after giving Universal Salvation much thought, I cannot convince myself that that was His glorious plan from the beginning of time.

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

John 20:29

This is what Jesus told Thomas, after he had doubted that He was alive and had rose from the dead. Many have not seen but believe. But Thomas was brought back into the fold, once he saw and believed. And I believe that is what will happen to those who have died before believing, as well as for ourselves. 

...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

John 11:25

I see it as very interesting that Jesus made distinctions as to the fact that some will die and then believe.

My  :2c:

D.

[rosered]

 

  Good stuff  Dandelion  :thumbsup:  glad to have you back again !! :HeartThrob:

I do believe it is death that is what is tripping most   all people up . understanding  what death means .
Even me at times     Doing a ''death '' study    from the Bible is very enlightening.
Gathering many perspectives    besides the one we  hold  as truth in the moment  .
  How can hell and death be cast into a lake of fire ?

One of the biggest clues  of Revelation  I believe  that there is and that being the second death 
and  Gods promise of  not being harmed by it .
  what dying twice ?   
  what is dead in sin mean ? and what is  found being dead in Christ ?   

How could Paul find himself dying daily ?

  What  of Abraham finding himself  as good as dead already ?

   Those things help us look at more than just   a  mortal death in my opinion .

and I do consider myself  dead already  by many  of those   terms and   also by worldly views .

  The world has definitely lost is luster   to so many of us   already     and cannot wait   till the Lord comes fully

Hebrews  9 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,


28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

[marie glen]

Amen, Dandelion.. Very good post with very good points! What's so missing from the et or ed gospel is logic!! (makes me a little crazy, but I know it's temporary :banana: )
  :gsmile:

[rosered]

Amen, Dandelion.. Very good post with very good points! What's so missing from the et or ed gospel is logic!! (makes me a little crazy, but I know it's temporary :banana: )
  :gsmile:

Exactly     sis Marie ,

   God is the  God of the living not the dead ,,,,  all must rise in Christ   eventually    some are just very blessed now !!   GLORY TO GOD  for His amazing grace and mercy   on all   !! :HeartThrob:

[CST]

Some Christians don't like Rob Bell's teachings because he is super liberal in his theology. I read and enjoy his stuff but I know some don't.  He has an online blog series called "what is the bible" that you can Google if you are interested.

He dissects the bible but over and over in the series he comes back to the idea that the bible was written by man and has to first and foremost be seen through this lens. Imperfect man trying to explain what they saw, heard, or what was passed down to them. But in the same breath, Rob says that doesn't discount be divine element of the bible. God meets us where we are. Then he transforms us to something higher and closer to Himself, through the bible. God is on every page but man has written the bible, so you are seeing God through man. It is somewhat of a paradox.

I believe spiritually viewing the bible can unite these two seemingly opposing views.

I do believe the bible is the story of God reaching out to man and man reaching out to God. It has spiritual truths throughout. Paul tells us of God's ultimate plan for all. Genesis is the story of how God is creating us. The gospels tell of Jesus walking among us and telling us how to live our lives in the best possible way. They tell of his amazing and earth shattering ministry and death.

I once read that Jesus did not come to save us from and angry God, but to save us from the idea that God is an angry God.

He is the face of God. Merciful, forgiving, loving, saving.

I felt some despair this morning so I decided after some self-defeating thoughts swimming around in my head, I would get quiet and meditate on God's love. I couldn't feel it at the time and I was feeling somewhat stubborn and self-righteous about some things but also wanted to reach out and connect with God so He could save me from myself.

I didn't intend to, but I ended up seeing a vision of Jesus on the cross and felt tears in my eyes.

The old sound bite of "Jesus died to save us from our sins" I believe to be true but in a different way than most. I believe the cross shows us how to live our lives. The cross shows us God's true nature. God is not an angry God. He demands mercy not sacrifice. Jesus did not sacrifice himself for God but instead he did it for us, as an example, so that we should sacrifice ourselves for those around us even when they don't deserve it. Loving and forgiving even when they don't deserve it. Doing so gently and with love. Not resisting. This is how we show God's love and how God saves us and how we serve each other. Jesus showed us how to live. I wish I were better at following his example. 

I'm not saying the above is the ultimate truth, just my own experience and thoughts that I wanted to share. I hope it helps. It's my intention to help and to grow closer to God myself.

If I'm still up to date I've read all Rob Bell's books except the latest and watched all his DVD's I find them fascination but because they operate just as introductions to things it's easy to go, whoa, hold up there I'm not sure you've thought that through. Some of them seem to have been re-edited as well and become choppy.

But let's not talk about that let's just talk about the end of your post and how beautiful and inspiring it is. Thanks, GiL.

Oh I do not doubt that there were great leaders whom we call Noah and Abraham with the seed-core of truth at the heart of their stories, what I was saying is that even during their own lifetimes there will have been the beginnings of legends being built around them bolstered by and drawn from already existing legends both local and foreign. The good news is that because of the vibrant and dynamic sacred power that God charges the Holy Book with, spiritual revelation is received by the reader – if they are receptive to it. As for the Deluge, I wonder why Noah would let his duck-billed platypuses out of the Ark 4,000 years ago (or so) and then carry them all the way to eastern Australia and Tasmania and then go all the way back home again. Perhaps it was to give us a clue about something.

This doesn't solve my problem because Abram was supposed to have been a heathen called out of heathenism by God. Every story he would have known would have been a heathen one so so do we get versions that aren't tainted? This is true of so many major characters in the Bible it makes it's entire message in the early part tenuous unless you accept it on faith and believe it somehow came from God not man even if it doesn't record literal history. It's like Jesus telling parables excect characters in parables don't need to exist so why do the characters in these stories except to make us feel aright?

Thanks, Rose. I just thought I'd gotten too deep or petulant or something. Or else you'd found more interesting stuff to discuss.

     Well   Chris  :laughing7:    ,
  I can laugh ,
  I love the simplicity in Christ   , and  hate to get wrapped up to tight in any "   binding  " and  death clothes ..   those are the filthy  rags after all ... we are warned not to be wearing when Christ returns     .

   I see the world as the thing to overcome   and all that is in it , pomp and pride of life and a death shroud of mystery of iniquity  ...   

    Turning one over  to satan for the destruction of the flesh ,   so in the Day of the Lord his spirit will be saved ,  to me is exactly what Jobs  experience was , IS and will be   , we all get to taste the Job experience  to a certain degree      and yet , many times cannot relate to Job at all , go figure ?

All these examples of what men have  encountered with God   dealing with them and still cannot relate in the slightest ?

  in Job were all the sons of God and satan was  with them  before the Lord  ,   This accuser of the brethren , the liar and thief and  destroyer    was looking whom to pick on    and spotted Job , it was his turn to be  enlightened !! 


   Job 1 6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."...

  Before he was cast out of heaven   entirely , and we see in Rev  12  he sure was !!   no more room for such a rotten   egg    so the   earth and the wrath of that ol dragon    get all the  brunt of    it .

   What helped me to  make a big picture was  knowing that  in Rev 12   the woman is the church  , Christ body being formed  all along the way ,  but we can get a real clue in Rev  ,  to me revelation / REVEALING OF CHRIST  is the KEY that unlocks the   books [ lo I come in the  volume of a book that testifies of ME ]


And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth,

he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    the dragon s flood of lies and filth    is a  river to be dried up for the kings of the east to also be prepared       ,,,     we know if the earth  world  / our motal bodies  swallowed up all that  wrath  against     GODS HOLY SPIRIT       it would  surly cause a lot of chaos in the earth       us namely    not being able to inheit the Kingdom of God 
  Now I see the  HOLY SPIRIT  Fire drying up  all them lies and death and hell and troubles and  [seas , and  voices   rivers etc  tongues and peoples   hardened  even  in the iron furnace of affliction   no more earth and no more sea      , TILL CHRIST BE FORMED IN THEM  ,, 
When you can identify with Fire and Light and Holy Spirit oil   , you sure can see a change is coming , fiery  trials  within us cause the heat  and pressure to build up and out , we can see and outwardly manifestation of what was kept inside to be  revealed when the   rods of iron  strike the   clay pots and   the revealing of the sons of God that were hidden inside   can come forth  by the Spirit of Life consuming    all things that offend  what is Holy and righteous and just and true   

  To the Glory of God  ,  that  is cutting to the chase   , for me , but   there are many , many  things in between to overcome along the way  .

    Things within us that must be done away with in Christ  :dsunny:

   


     ps I am one whom loves to just stick to the Word  for  many answers  , for  me   personally  ,    I have  noticed  God puts  a veil over them  writers   for me and do not know why  :dontknow: , but have found many  get lost in translations   and  meanings and stuff like that   and try ,   being so immature spiritually  speaking , I do believe it was a protection   for my own good ,,,
  I enjoy  thinking about others points of view     especially on this particular forum       , we grow in truth and grace   that ultimately  comes from GOD HIMSELF
 



 

Yeah, the world is the thing to overcome, it's also the thing God is meant to be saving so go figure.

I also still can't get over my understanding that I received when I first read Paul talking about 'destruction of the flesh' which I took as a euphemism for execution. Still can't quite get off that.

I also don't seem to see Satan or the opening of Job as you do so if I tried respond to the rest of what you say there I suspect we'd be speaking crossed purposes.

[rosered]

Yeah, the world is the thing to overcome, it's also the thing God is meant to be saving so go figure.

I also still can't get over my understanding that I received when I first read Paul talking about 'destruction of the flesh' which I took as a euphemism for execution. Still can't quite get off that.

I also don't seem to see Satan or the opening of Job as you do so if I tried respond to the rest of what you say there I suspect we'd be speaking crossed purposes

   Hi CST ,
    Just keep on keeping on ,      God has a way of just  '' helping us ,   Say,'' oh yeah !''  down the road  and  '' the light bulb ''  moments , many things it has taken years  of  asking seeking and knocking   and many of      wonderful folks  put in our paths to help us all along the way .   

Voices   of many waters from above , I can now understand them to be ,  all coming from the   mouth of God  /Word made flesh ,   by His Holy Spirit ...

    You are loved and  wont  bother you  with  my   thoughts  on these subjects , God bless you Chris   always !! :HeartThrob:

[CST]

Hi all. I missed you all this past week. Nice to be back at Tentmakers this morning.

So, you all did a great job of breaking down the misunderstandings and incorrect ways of analyzing what is written in the Bible, IMO. And, of choosing Bible quotes to back this up.

Three of the points I see as emerging often are semantics or the meaning of words and thus, also expressions; interpretation, especially of words pertaining to fire/judgement in light of our view of Hell, (Of course, semantics and interpretation often overlap.) and the third is timing or often, whether the issue discussed needs to happen before we die or whether it can happen after we die.

So, this is good to see, I believe, and this is also one reason a cite, such as ours, is so useful. When we consider explaining and/or sharing this with others, it is great to have this kind of information.

I also think we need to emphasize the point that Jesus cannot be the Lord of All and yet so many people are in Hell. How can the devil be defeated if he still has half or so of mankind in bondage, with Him? Is that the image of Jesus as the ultimate savior of the world that we speak of?

Also, Love Never Fails. ( 1 Corinthians 13:8)

One simple statement, and yet, for me, it seems to sum up many other Bible quotes that reflect God's never ending and never failing love for us.

How have we for centuries preached this, simultaneously with the concept of an everlasting Hell?

If God is as we all say He is......all powerful, all knowing, all loving.....then He can find a way to reach us all. It might take time, but it can be done.

If love never fails, then, I believe, it will be done.

God's Love is said to never end. God cannot go back on His Word; He is constant and never changing. In our 'throw away' society, we often forget that the goal is that all love never ends. Even if we sometimes fail, He cannot. Even the theory that we choose Hell for ourselves, not God, does not seem adequate for a God who promises everlasting love.

Many, as I used to, believe that God does not put us in Hell, but that we choose it. For me, at this point in time, after giving Universal Salvation much thought, I cannot convince myself that that was His glorious plan from the beginning of time.

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

John 20:29

This is what Jesus told Thomas, after he had doubted that He was alive and had rose from the dead. Many have not seen but believe. But Thomas was brought back into the fold, once he saw and believed. And I believe that is what will happen to those who have died before believing, as well as for ourselves. 

...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

John 11:25

I see it as very interesting that Jesus made distinctions as to the fact that some will die and then believe.

My  :2c:

D.

Did you mean to put this in the UR affirmations thread? If you did copy it there, if you didn't copy it there. It really is staggering how ETers and EDers don't see the clear objections to their worldview that you explain here.

  Good stuff  Dandelion  :thumbsup:  glad to have you back again !! :HeartThrob:

I do believe it is death that is what is tripping most   all people up . understanding  what death means .
Even me at times     Doing a "death " study    from the Bible is very enlightening.
Gathering many perspectives    besides the one we  hold  as truth in the moment  .
  How can hell and death be cast into a lake of fire ?

One of the biggest clues  of Revelation  I believe  that there is and that being the second death 
and  Gods promise of  not being harmed by it .
  what dying twice ?   
  what is dead in sin mean ? and what is  found being dead in Christ ?   

How could Paul find himself dying daily ?

  What  of Abraham finding himself  as good as dead already ?

   Those things help us look at more than just   a  mortal death in my opinion .

and I do consider myself  dead already  by many  of those   terms and   also by worldly views .

  The world has definitely lost is luster   to so many of us   already     and cannot wait   till the Lord comes fully

Hebrews  9 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,


28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

I suspect that death has main different meanings the primary 2 being physical and spiritual. I've read a post around her of someone denying there is such a thing as spiritual death. I don't think they'd say that if they remembered experience it.

Amen, Dandelion.. Very good post with very good points! What's so missing from the et or ed gospel is logic!! (makes me a little crazy, but I know it's temporary :banana: )
  :gsmile:

Exactly     sis Marie ,

   God is the  God of the living not the dead ,,,,  all must rise in Christ   eventually    some are just very blessed now !!   GLORY TO GOD  for His amazing grace and mercy   on all   !! :HeartThrob:

Jesus saying that is a bit odd. In an isolated context the scripture doesn't say that. It just says the dead are dead the living are living God only is God of the living. But if that is true, where is His authority to judge the dead? Why would He ever care to?

:smile: Than you, Rose, you are so kind and friendly.  :dsunny:  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Jesus saying that is a bit odd. In an isolated context the scripture doesn't say that. It just says the dead are dead the living are living God only is God of the living. But if that is true, where is His authority to judge the dead? Why would He ever care to?

:smile: Than you, Rose, you are so kind and friendly.  :dsunny:  :HeartThrob:

  You are kind and friendly too Chris , and have enjoyed your   ''heart'' .thoughts  that come out of  your heart  expressing   your own position .

    If you believe Jesus Christ is fufulling ''all things''   He has tasted death for every man ,  giving Him that right to judge    the dead and living    , He   become Lord of the dead and the living     presenting them to the FATHER   GOD OF THE LIVING .. Romans 14 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14

Pual is one voice of the many living waters  to me  , the waters from Above found in Christ .

    JESUS CHRIST   ,He is the Lord  of lords and KING of kings ,,, 

But I see Jesus Christ / WORD OF GOD  so much more differently now  , not so much as flesh and blood ,  and a man , but   as the WORD OF GOD HIMSELF .

all things are held by him and for Him and though Him  Col 1

The Supremacy of Christ
...16For by Him all things were created,

both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible,

whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.


17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything....

   For me  and my  :2c:   am seeing   the WORD OF GOD  created   the old and the new  , the name given   under heaven by which you must be saved is the Lord Jesus Christ   , this is the worlds testimony   and witness     to all that dwell on the earth  :2c:

That have heard His name and believed in His name  as being the Son of God , Just as Peter believed  , who do you say that I am  simon? [meaning hearing ]   

   You are the Son of God , Jesus  replies  flesh and blood did not  reveal this to you , But my Father , being the Holy Spirit    of the living that He is  and by the Word spoken made it a     ''rock solid  truth  to Zion , whose new name is Peter''  a lttle living stone '' , a white stone  new heart  , that is living and believing ] of Gods kingdom that the gates of hell / grave and death cannot prevail against   
SION /ZION IS THE NEW JERUSALEM that comes down from above     hebrews 12 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,  etc..

The city of David and the sure mercies  of Gods promise  to all of us   whom have believed on His name also  by the Father showing mercy on us  also .

  We have our hope alive  right now   and  access to the LIVING GOD though Jesus CHRIST  :dsunny:

[CST]

Thanks, Rose, you seem to be playing the context of redemption card there. Fine I see the poetry but again it depends on what is meant here by Jesus when He said 'dead' and also still suggests the objection, but God is Sovereign, of course He has authority over the dead. My point isn't actually that He doesn't have such authority it's why would He suggest He had no part in the dead. All the dead were formally living things made by God if He's lost them while they're dead (and I not sure why He would have) it's only just for Him to claim them back. The position Jesus seems to be describing seems to be a none position. I guess I just don't understand what He's saying when He uses the term dead. Though in the context He does seem to mean people who formerly lived but have died which do not include Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.

[rosered]

Thanks, Rose, you seem to be playing the context of redemption card there. Fine I see the poetry but again it depends on what is meant here by Jesus when He said 'dead' and also still suggests the objection, but God is Sovereign, of course He has authority over the dead. My point isn't actually that He doesn't have such authority it's why would He suggest He had no part in the dead. All the dead were formally living things made by God if He's lost them while they're dead (and I not sure why He would have) it's only just for Him to claim them back. The position Jesus seems to be describing seems to be a none position. I guess I just don't understand what He's saying when He uses the term dead. Though in the context He does seem to mean people who formerly lived but have died which do not include Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.

   Hi Chris ,       For me , again it is symbolism      , considering the      sheer terror of Abrams   experience with God   before His name changed to   Abraham    and the father of ''faith '' a substance     that produced a promised son'' Isaac ''   and Jacob  , in all his troubles     before His name change to Israel   

where all the generations shall be blessed ,     being in Christ  this ''anointing  '' or the smearing of the Holy Spirit  oil ,that  is upon them  is  the Light of  LIFE


    Psalms    72 Give the King Your Justice
...16May there be abundance of grain in the earth on top of the mountains; Its fruit will wave like the cedars of Lebanon; And may those from the city flourish like vegetation of the earth.

17May his name endure forever;


May his name increase as long as the sun shines;

And let men bless themselves by him; Let all nations call him blessed.

18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, Who alone works wonders....

   For me ,   the  :2c:  is   being  Spiritual    in symbolism   walk in the Spirit and the Light of Life  as a never ending thing but becomes a stronger  bond by the Love of God    .   

less  focus on the carnal  things of the  present world   that is full of woes    in their day and in our Day /Light

The peace and joy in the Spirit the carnal can never achieve or  touch or  taste  , just   the things of the  world   that result in     the temporary   moment   but suffer  loss and death    , them things do not last ..

[CST]

Hmm, I think we may really be talking crossed purposes now. I think it's best if we try to address this in the context Jesus said this.

Remember Jesus was answering the Sadducees question/objection on the resurrection. Remember the Saducees don't believe in the resurrection and they only recognize the authority of the Torah/Pentateuch. The Prophets and the Writings carries little to no weight with them.

So they attempt to trap Jesus and ask Him the ridiculous question about the woman who married seven husbands sequentially, basically a complete number of husbands I suspect but I can't work out how they're using it and asks who's wife she'll be in the resurrection. Remember that this is a trap and basically sexist, it would work with a man with seven wives.

The point is Jesus can't say she'll be married to all of them because that would be culturally appalling, but there are obviously problems with naming any single husband either. Ridiculous as I believe this is I expect it may have been a real dilemma in the day.

Jesus says she won't be married to any of them, her marriages all dissolve on the death of her husband (each of them) and will never be reinstated, marriage is an institution of this world not of the next. Which is sad for people who dream of being married but never will be.

He then says, because He can only direct them to the authority of the Torah, that God revealed Himself to Moses as "I AM the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob."

This doesn't come across very well in English I suspect it should be I AM BEING... I AM doesn't have the progressive sense in the context.

Jesus' point was that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had somehow, though they had died, already been resurrected to God because the Saducees should be able to understand from the text He quoted that the patriarchs, though they had died, were not dead. He then said God is God of the living not of the dead. Presumably everything Jesus says to the Saducees here has support in the Torah otherwise they'd be able to reject it out of hand and it would be no sort of answer to the question. They quite probably reject it anyway but that won't be because of any failing in Christ's argument.

[rosered]

  I don't know Chris  , it is according to HOW you believe ...

Pentateuch is a Greek word generally referring to the text of the written Torah or the first five books of the Tanakh. used in the customs and keeping of  Jewish laws

  Seriously   though   , they set ,,,,to trap Jesus Christ  , but He actually trapped them with their own words ,,  thoughts .  what was in their hearts  ,
Proving they were wise in their own eyes [ worldly wisdom ]    how to make the  flesh ''look holy''   before mankind ,but deny the Very power [   Holy SPIRIT ]

Which the Word of Life and Spirit of Life actually are and all that is found in them ..ALIVE 

  Jesus Christ appeared as a man  , for all intents and  purposes , But we Know   by the new testament scriptures    , that Jesus Christ is basically everything ,   and one thing for sure is the Mouth piece   for GOD HIMSELF    The Word of Life   in which they kept rejecting     , they judged the outward appearance    and seeing a man    , not God , because they thought they were   gods .

Jesus Christ spoke only the words Father   John 12 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.


I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them,

I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.


For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

  I hope we are making some  head way    and meeting    in the middle ground     :laughing7:  God bless    us everyone  :HeartThrob:

[CST]

:smile: Thanks, Rose, Jesus did indeed do that. Not sure how many Saducees stopped been Saducees. Well all of them eventually I expect though perhaps not quite so many immediately.

I'm always confused about how Jesus talks about judgement in the Gospel. "I do not judge anyone..." But your God? "The word I spoke is what will judge him on the last day." That God bid you say? God who's you?

In John's Gospel (I think) Jesus also falls back on the law declaring how He will testify and then he Father will testify and thus will provide the two witnesses required by law, there's an implication of the Holy Spirit there because three witnesses are preferable. But that's for the sake of human's. The Father is not human that He should lie or His testimony be mistaken in His testimony.

Very strange, but very true and wise.

[marie glen]

:smile: I'm not so sure that there won't be unions, marriage bonds in the kingdom.. I tend to think He was saying they will not be married (off) nor given in marriage.. no ceremonies.. :2c:

I tend to not think anyone has been resurrected yet, until the 1st resurrection.. but to Yahweh, His people are not "dead" but resting.. They have not ceased to exist - the opposite of life (originally, until, imo, and others I've read, paganism was blended in - I'm a big fan of history which sheds a lot of light) ..again, :2c: :gsmile:

I believe truth judges us.. especially when all built on sand can only crash and burn as the saying goes.. consequences and results of our own doings.. made apparent on judgment day, if not sooner - i.e. in each individual case..

The Saducees pretty much disappeared after the razing of Jerusalem by Titus in 70ce. (days of our Lord, a.d.)
    :Peace2:

[CST]

:smile: I'm not so sure that there won't be unions, marriage bonds in the kingdom.. I tend to think He was saying they will not be married (off) nor given in marriage.. no ceremonies.. :2c:

I tend to not think anyone has been resurrected yet, until the 1st resurrection.. but to Yahweh, His people are not "dead" but resting.. They have not ceased to exist - the opposite of life (originally, until, imo, and others I've read, paganism was blended in - I'm a big fan of history which sheds a lot of light) ..again, :2c: :gsmile:

I believe truth judges us.. especially when all built on sand can only crash and burn as the saying goes.. consequences and results of our own doings.. made apparent on judgment day, if not sooner - i.e. in each individual case..

The Saducees pretty much disappeared after the razing of Jerusalem by Titus in 70ce. (days of our Lord, a.d.)
    :Peace2:

Aah, I love you honesty and optimism. I personally don't expect there to be marriage in the kingdom excepting that of God to the save world and that Jesus was saying exactly what He meant.

That's because I see marriage, which can be beautiful, painful and isn't for me, as being an institution for this world because of the limitations of this world. I feel we demand an exclusivity in love that really doesn't suit it and for practical and moral purposes we can't share our love in the marital way with everyone. Hopefully in Heaven we'll be better at it.

But I certainly think that, yes, people may decide to all sorts of celebrations of love that could be comparable to marriage if that's what you're saying. It's certainly a nice thought.

It's hard for me to believe anyone's been resurrected yet, excepting Jesus, or and Lazarus and a few people in the Old Testament. Resurrection isn't perhaps the best translation for understanding exactly what the Saducees were taking exception to. Obviously they were referring to bodily resurrection in the world to come, believed only the Torah which I don't think contains any direct resurrection stories, and apparently doubted God's intention on this matter, because you'd think if they doubted His capacity, oh wait they did. They were a bit like EDers but for everyone.

Yeah, I'd agree that what God said to Moses can't be understood in the sense of the end of the age bodily resurrection. That is why when I read about the deconstruction of the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, good deconstructions by the way. I can't simply take the objection that what Jesus said about the afterlife was based on a myth. At the very least it acknowledges people who have that understand of the afterlife and does not criticize or correct the idea and lends support to it.

What Jesus does here is suggest that God makes some sort of distinction between those who are alive to Him and those who are dead, and Abraham is among the living. But this is the wrong place to discuss that.

I'll acknowledge your knowledge of the fall of the Saducees though.

[jbertonbounds]

Reading over the original post, I find most of their statements - in themselves - are actually true (if you disregard their obvious, underlying false assumptions about universalist beliefs). But I also find that what they are refuting - Universalism -  hardly represents what we, as universalists believe.  There is a religion called "Universalism" whose beliefs are drastically different from our beliefs about universal salvation.  In fact, it is pretty much a "believe-whatever-you-like" and "anything-goes" religion.  We are not "Universalists" as defined by the religious world.  We are simply believers in the salvation of all, and quite frankly, for obvious reasons, I prefer not to be labelled as a Universalist, or for that matter, an anything-ist.  As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure I want to be labelled "Christian" in today's religious environment. 

The whole batch of 24 reasons to believe in hell was poorly written, using poor logic, opinions, and scripturally unfounded assumptions.  As a matter of fact, the last one, number 24, is not even a reason, but rather, a "what-if."

[eaglesway]

Reading over the original post, I find most of their statements - in themselves - are actually true (if you disregard their obvious, underlying false assumptions about universalist beliefs). But I also find that what they are refuting - Universalism -  hardly represents what we, as universalists believe.  There is a religion called "Universalism" whose beliefs are drastically different from our beliefs about universal salvation.  In fact, it is pretty much a "believe-whatever-you-like" and "anything-goes" religion.  We are not "Universalists" as defined by the religious world.  We are simply believers in the salvation of all, and quite frankly, for obvious reasons, I prefer not to be labelled as a Universalist, or for that matter, an anything-ist.  As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure I want to be labelled "Christian" in today's religious environment. 

The whole batch of 24 reasons to believe in hell was poorly written, using poor logic, opinions, and scripturally unfounded assumptions.  As a matter of fact, the last one, number 24, is not even a reason, but rather, a "what-if."

:iagree:

[joeteekay]

 Very well expressed JB. I strongly dislike the label "universalism" or "universalist".  Has so much baggage with it. It is also not a biblical term. There is a plethora of posts and this topic that see it as a very inappropriate term for we who believe in the salvation of all.  :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Amen! :iagree:

I went back to read the op, but then I couldn't even read it! All so tiring! :gfish:

Like JB said, 'they' just don't get the point that we believe redemption and reconciliation is only through genuinely believing in Jesus, through repentance, etc.

As far as i can perceive the only difference really, in the viewpoints is the idea that once one dies aLL bets are off. And also how they are not able to see - at this time - that to be destroyed here upon earth - literally or in judgment on judgment day as in the judging of the life they led, doesn't mean literally destroyed as to be annihilated.. Besides most believe destruction isn't the end! But are then alive for eternal torment. Yet unable to be alive and able to repent? If you think about it, that makes no sense, either. Gee.. it's just so sad our heavenly Father is so unable to rescue so many more (from the wages of sin, death). So sad.. (So sad so many believe Him to be so incompetent!)

The hell myth is so ridiculous - most especially in light of God's character and POWER - sometimes I simply want to say, "you've got to be kidding!" It's nice to know, one day, all will come 'round... :gsmile:

I think one of the reasons some of these things are shrouded in mystery is because He likes and wants the interaction with us as we seek to understand and go to Him seeking the answers and understanding..

I like too, what GodisLove said -

I once read that Jesus did not come to save us from an angry God, but to save us from the idea that God is an angry God.

[Jason]

31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.  Lamentations 3:31-33

It's plainly stated, "the Lord will not cast off for ever:" - anybody believing in "everlasting hell" doesn't believe in God.  They do believe in a god, but his name is Satan and his lies are wicked, piercing to the very core of their being.  They don't worship Jesus Christ, the truth.  Nor do they worship the one true God, Yahweh, who is "Light in Whom there is no darkness at all." - such a God would never torture people for eternity.

They don't know the scriptures, nor the power of God, but ESPECIALLY, THEY DON'T KNOW THE NATURE OF GOD.  Jesus said He's not a liar, He said His Father and He are one, He also lived a life without sin and PROVED HIS NATURE AND HIS FATHER'S NATURE.

[darryl]

Amen! :iagree:


I think one of the reasons some of these things are shrouded in mystery is because He likes and wants the interaction with us as we seek to understand and go to Him seeking the answers and understanding..

[/quote]

a GREAT  point, Marie...never thought of that ! :dsunny:

[rosered]

31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.  Lamentations 3:31-33

It's plainly stated, "the Lord will not cast off for ever:" - anybody believing in "everlasting hell" doesn't believe in God.  They do believe in a god, but his name is Satan and his lies are wicked, piercing to the very core of their being.  They don't worship Jesus Christ, the truth.  Nor do they worship the one true God, Yahweh, who is "Light in Whom there is no darkness at all." - such a God would never torture people for eternity.

They don't know the scriptures, nor the power of God, but ESPECIALLY, THEY DON'T KNOW THE NATURE OF GOD.  Jesus said He's not a liar, He said His Father and He are one, He also lived a life without sin and PROVED HIS NATURE AND HIS FATHER'S NATURE.

  Yes , the whole world wondered after the beast  :sigh:  I am afraid religious Babylon has made a false Image   of the beast and called it   god , when   they read the scriptures with their  carnal and beastly minds  , the pride of Babylon   
  Religion  in general  appearing holy before men but God knows the heart 

 

  Rev 13 The Beast from the Sea

...2The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion.

And the dragon gave the beast his power and throne and great authority.

3One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded.

But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

4They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?"...

  Job 41

Any hope of capturing him proves false.
Does a person not collapse at the very sight of him?

No one is ferocious enough to rouse Leviathan;
who then can stand against me?
Who confronted me, that I should repay him?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

I cannot be silent about his limbs,
his power, and his graceful proportions.
Who can strip off his outer covering?
Who can penetrate his double layer of armor?
Who can open his jaws,
surrounded by those terrifying teeth?


Isaiah 13 A Judgment against Babylon


...18And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children.

19And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans' pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation; Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there, Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there....
 

  Lots of prophetic   things   to consider .