just wondering

[Jock]

mystery Babylon the great. I had thought that this was a modern city but I  was reading a piece by ellen white and she says (very confidently) that it is not a city, but a fallen church. I see truth in this "come out of her oh my people and be separate saith the Lord"

Any other thoughts on this?

:Peace2:

Jock

[eaglesway]

I think Babylon is a mystery(deep secret to be fathomed). IMO it is a spiritual system seeking to restrain the reign of Christ- that includes the fallen church. Babylonia is the head of gold is seen in Daniels prophecy, (Nebuchanezzar being at that time the king of Babylon). It roots are in the tower of Babel.

Babylon(etymology meaning) means "Confusion" or "Mixture" or "Confusion by mixture".

In Rev 11:8

"Their(the two witnesses) bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified."

So how does Babylon become Egypt Sodom and Jerusalem(wherein our Lord was crucified)?

Rev 17:4-6

And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. She held in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. On her forehead a mysterious name was written: Babylon the Great, the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth. I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus.


Well, for one thing, she does everything for money. She hates God and His family of believers/sharers/lovers. All the kings of the earth get drunk upon the passion of her immorality. She has intercourse with them all. She is the opposite of the Bride. She hates the City of God(coming down out of heaven) and the gates of righteousness. She is clothed in scarlet and gold and drinks blood. The Bride is clothed in wwhite linen and drinks the water of life.

In her initial incarnation(Babel, imo) she sought to establish domimion over the whole earth in opposition to God.

She serves the one who seeks to rule rather than to serve.

One might say she is his lover, the "queen of heaven".

I know many "ID's" for Babylon have been posited- like the U.S. or the Roman Catholic Church, but I do not see that any single entity fulfills all the prophecies concerning her.

What I like about Daniels prophecy, is that it shows a historical process, moving from the singular monarchy of Babylon(head) down to the feet of iron and clay.

"While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth."

This rock is the kingdom of God in Christ which will obliderate unrighteousness dominion until it can no longer be found.

"You are Petra(rock) and upon this rock I will build my ecclesia." We are living stones, and ambassador for Christ, the forerunners of the new(renewed) heavens and the new(renewed) earth."

Our blood in the earth is the power of God, changing the very foundations of the world and all who are in it, as the further shedding of the blood of Jesus.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements(stoicheion- elementary principles) will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Peter spoke of the flood, in the verses previous to those I quoted, and how "the Lord destroyed the world that was"- but we know he did not actually destroy the earth, he "dissolved" the foundations and "elementary principles"(systems of dominion where "might made right" and violence reigned).

So also the kingdom of God, which "is like a measure of leaven hidden in 3 bushels of flour until the whole was leavened" Mt 13:3 will "disarm the principalities and powers", and the world will be freed into the reign of love, equity, justice and light.

We do not kno the day or the hour but.......

IMO, We are definitely in the feet of clay and iron in this process of the degradation of world kingdoms.



When the seventh trumpet sounds the cry goes out, "The kingdoms of this world hav become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ"....

When the seventh bowl is poured out the cry goes out "It is finished!".

"When you see these things rejoice, for your redemption is at hand".

We are the first fruits (James 1:18)of the new heavens and the new earth(Rev 21:1-5) setting the whole creation(Rev 5:13) free from futility into the "glorious freedom of the children of God"(Ro 8:21)

[Ross]

G'day;
Revelations 17, 18, 19 refer to the Babylon system. Seems to refer to the world system which we are currently under.
Kings of the earth, merchants of the earth,
17;15 " The waters where the prostitute sits are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages."
17;18 " The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."
Could well be figuratively the world banking system that controls global finance.
18;3 " All nations have drunk the wine of her passionate immorality..."

17;8 the beast she rides
17;12 the 10 kings that will receive authority with the beast
17;17 handing their authority to the beast
18;2 a dwelling place for demons

18;16 clothed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."

18;20 " rejoice over her O heaven and you saints and apostles and prophets,
           for God has pronounced judgment for you AGAINST HER."

18;23 " ... all nations were deceived by your magic spells."

19;2 " For He has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged the blood of His servants
          shed by her hand."

Could be just a system or a reality- either way the global powers will be deliberately led astray by the whole shebang.
Interestingly Nebuchadnezzar seems to be an example of how this will be fulfilled. Lived in a glorious temple; had people bowing down to him; on the day when he said,
                                                      " look what I have done"
he became an animal. Was that animal for 7 years, then was returned in one day to his position.
He instigated the Babylonian system, which we seem to be currently under.
So the beast, building the temple and having an image made of him seems to be just like that scenario.

[Seth]

. Well, for one thing, she does everything for money. She hates God and His family of believers/sharers/lovers. All the kings of the earth get drunk upon the passion of her immorality. She has intercourse with them all. She is the opposite of the Bride. She hates the City of God(coming down out of heaven) and the gates of righteousness. She is clothed in scarlet and gold and drinks blood. The Bride is clothed in wwhite linen and drinks the water of life.

This sounds almost like everything the Bible says about the mind of the flesh.

[marie glen]

What I like about Daniels prophecy, is that it shows a historical process, moving from the singular monarchy of Babylon(head) down to the feet of iron and clay.

I haven't read the rest of this post yet.. or any other posts, before replying. But I agree so much with that sentence that I just had to pause.

Now I know not everyone is into bible prophecy and I've yet to come across another living soul that reads it in the interpretations I do.. but i've 'always' felt what i think of as a revelation call, the understanding (imo) that though God created life and the earth, man has created his own world, which we do good to not let ourselves get too wrapped up in - all in our Father's plans of course, this allowing much to run its course.

City Babylon is said in the word, to be responsible for all slain upon Earth. That to me, seems to support the idea that it is not one single entity or institution. But that through time it has many faces, from Babylon the Great to today. And even preceding any 'great' kingdoms or cities of man.

Per rev chapters 17, 18 and 19:2, the kings and politicians are always in bed with her.. And in Revelation, she made the merchants wealthy with her charms, enchantments and seduction. (Imo, mesmerism today via the tube, etc, making it so easy!) The greek word translated harlot is "pornos" which meaning includes "to sell". Lots of folks make a big deal out of her sitting on 7 hills, but there are also 7 continents which are in essence, hills. (7 being, last manifestation/form, global?)

The ten kings (horns, divisions? toes) of the last hour will consume and destroy her. And here it says specifically, per God's will. The ten divisions of what? Of the first beast of Rev 13, which I take to be a 'big' one as opposed to the "little horn" ('little' one also of rev 13). And since it's not that hard to see where the world's progressing to (a world governing/beast) which expired once (chap 13) but after 13:13 was rebuilt.

The "last hour" ten, will raze and devour her. I think this is socialism (extreme) will finally devour and do away with capitalism (extreme and embraced pornos to sell) over whom the merchants will weep when she falls for no one will be buying their long list of products of rev 18, from necessities to luxuries, and chariots and the "bodies and souls of men" (and women). And she made all those who trade upon the seas wealthy.. (In prior age, trade was done much more by sea.)

I think her name -  her forehead/psyche, is mystery babble, in agreement with Eaglesway, all confusion
(and all untruth, responsible for all slain upon earth.. all death really)

Many think City Babylon and Jezebel are one and the same.. and maybe they were for a time.. (and I think some bible prophecy buffs and students are locked into yesteryear.. aNd, also have put Revelation into a box called "seven years" which is another reason EW's - "What I like about Daniels prophecy, is that it shows a historical process, moving from the singular monarchy of Babylon(head) down to the feet of iron and clay." imo, is right on.

Much of Revelation, too, follows that pattern not the 7 year box.

"Fallen.. fallen... $ity Babylon is fallen.." .."in one hour"
                                                                              .."in a day.." .."when the towers fall" (Isaiah 30:25) "..great hail" (debris?)  Rev 16:21.
(Rev is not, imo, in strict order, but is in scenes.. for example chapters 12 and 13 are inserts/total histories on their own. Inserts, like a boxed insert in a magazine or history text book.)

Hope I didn't get too far off topic.. but she does "ride the beast"... including the ancient king and priest empires, where they ruled hand in hand..
:icon_jokercolor: :Peace2:

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: great posts!!!


..."I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." - ! :Chinscratch: this lets me know who/what, or I guess that would be why, beheadings of christians is being allowed to run rampant in the middle east.. the dove will compatriot with the vulture, that is, beast 13:1-10 will harness the sword of those extreme haters, to achieve its aim..
and they (beast) are in bed with $ity babylon, that city which babbles on and on, noisy babble of voices...

"She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her fornication" - and the side effects? - dissolution of family, etc - side effects of her "corrupting the earth with her fornication" (spirit of harlotry?) .."she sits on many waters.. and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." ("But the earth will swallow the flood.." 12:16 w/ Luke 23:28,31) :icon_jokercolor:

[rosered]

 
I can only  share what I believe  has been  the Lords  help in this  simple  understanding ....
But Had  to ''get it ''   first   that ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN created though CHRIST  ...
This being the anointing of GODS WORD by His Spirit  breathing on them and making them ACTIVE    in His  own desire  and timing .
or they are just sealed up   WORDS that are  given over to the carnal nature and understanding  to form all these religions  over the ages  and mans vanity  and imaginations   and to their own detriment/harm .

EVERYTHING   FAILS BUT GODS OWN SPIRIT OF TRUTH ONLY   ... nothing  else comes of it  but much harm .
   
You can do nothing against the TRUTH    , But for it   ,   the ones whom   fight against the truth    fall and utterly break themselves   against it ...

  The dead know nothing[In Adam  all die and are dead to the Living God ]   by faith and grace  of God , we learn  about God, they must be awakened to righteousness , the Christ anointing  is the Light   in men , but it is keeping your eye single [ first Love / pure and Holy Love of God   being the Wisdom of God  found in the Lord Jesus Christ , love GOD first and  everyone else as you do your own selves   and want what is best for all concerned .
But here is the catch,  if that Light be darkness[worldly wisdom  mixing with what is Holy ] , How great is that darkness !!    this knowledge being the confusion by mixing   of Babylons pride  , not love , but  pride   thinking they are above the law of God     , no one is ever  above the LAW OF GOD ....

  The Law of God is powerful and active   as to bring Life  / Spirit [fruits of peace and joy  and death  /carnal  minded   to anyone   depending on their HEART  condition ..   

That is it in a nutshell ......

  There is a whole lot more   to the Day and hour of trial  on the whole world  and the  timing  of  being in Adam  930  and the   70 years of the captivity of Babylon=1000 total as a DAY OF THE LORD ,   but they all do apply to the 1000 YEAR  reign of Christ    , HIM BEING THE ALL IN ALL   ,   COL1

The Supremacy of Christ
...Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence....


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58
"Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.




Proverbs 8:22,23 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old...
Isaiah 43:11-13 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior...

Isaiah 44:6 Thus said the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD ...
Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands ...

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD  

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory ...

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, ...

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Revelation 1:8,11,17 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, said the Lord, ...

I do believe when you begin to understand everything is in GOD   ALREADY    but not  ALL  Alive  just  yet .

You will understand   just how much it is His LIVING WORD & SPIRIT   is  ALL POWER   and there is nothing outside of HIM  that exist 

ALL GLORY IS GODS ALONE and we can REALLY boast in the LORD !!!  :HeartThrob:

I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE   JOHN 11 21Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that God will give You whatever You ask Him."

23"Your brother will rise again," Jesus told her.

24Martha replied, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NEVER ANY TRUER WORD  IN POWER THAN THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!firm in allegiance; loyal; faithful; steadfast!!!!!!!!

27"Yes, Lord," she answered, "I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

[WhiteWings]

mystery Babylon the great. I had thought that this was a modern city but I  was reading a piece by ellen white and she says (very confidently) that it is not a city, but a fallen church. I see truth in this "come out of her oh my people and be separate saith the Lord"

Any other thoughts on this?

:Peace2:

Jock

It can be both. Cities don't do good or evil; but the people living in the city can and do. God was never angry at the buildings in Sodom but He was with the people living in those buildings.

The whore of Babylon sits on many waters. Waters is nations.
The ancient Babylon was not just buildings and people but also teachings that polluted the world.
The ruler living in that city controlled his own and many others from that city. The heart of false teachings was in that city.

I'll use Manhattan as an explanation not as some sort of prophesy....
Manhattan is the financial heart of the USA and (partly) the rest of the world. Manhattan isn't about steel and bricks but a system. It's the blueprint of the financial things on this world. And (not so) indirectly it's the blueprint for greed. A very successful blueprint...
So when there would be a verse in the Bible that says God is going to punish/destroy Manhattan He indeed could literally do so, but I think the primary meaning of the verse would be God will come down hard on the person/mind that follows Manhattan's blueprint/system of greed.

So Manhattan is a symbol of greed but the buildings themselves aren't greedy.
Compare it with the cross that's a symbol of Jesus. That cross was just wood that never teached and loved people.

Summary: A city can be the symbol of the way of thinking. And it's those thoughts God is after.

[Jock]

Wow! some excellent posts on this. you all are causing me to think and meditate. thank you each and everyone for your thoughts. Marie Glen, I agree with your view of the book of revelation.  :thumbsup:

:Peace2:

Jock.

[eaglesway]

mystery Babylon the great. I had thought that this was a modern city but I  was reading a piece by ellen white and she says (very confidently) that it is not a city, but a fallen church. I see truth in this "come out of her oh my people and be separate saith the Lord"

Any other thoughts on this?

:Peace2:

Jock

It can be both. Cities don't do good or evil; but the people living in the city can and do. God was never angry at the buildings in Sodom but He was with the people living in those buildings.

The whore of Babylon sits on many waters. Waters is nations.
The ancient Babylon was not just buildings and people but also teachings that polluted the world.
The ruler living in that city controlled his own and many others from that city. The heart of false teachings was in that city.

I'll use Manhattan as an explanation not as some sort of prophesy....
Manhattan is the financial heart of the USA and (partly) the rest of the world. Manhattan isn't about steel and bricks but a system. It's the blueprint of the financial things on this world. And (not so) indirectly it's the blueprint for greed. A very successful blueprint...
So when there would be a verse in the Bible that says God is going to punish/destroy Manhattan He indeed could literally do so, but I think the primary meaning of the verse would be God will come down hard on the person/mind that follows Manhattan's blueprint/system of greed.

So Manhattan is a symbol of greed but the buildings themselves aren't greedy.
Compare it with the cross that's a symbol of Jesus. That cross was just wood that never teached and loved people.

Summary: A city can be the symbol of the way of thinking. And it's those thoughts God is after.

:thumbsup:

[Jock]

Yes, I believe that is both, a city but I also believe that it has a false religious system that encompasses many tongues and tribes. the following is a pretty good explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY20IFaWlsQ

Jock.

[sheila]

...interesting....I think it DOES go all the way back to garden of Eden...Adam/red clay and a dividing

  when sin entered..ate from TOKGAE..=mix,too.

[eaglesway]

marieglenn,

I think Babylon and Jezebel are the same n principle at least. The same spirit. Babylon the harlot entices the kings of the earth to immorality, as Jezebel did in ancient Israel, with Ahab, enticing him to commit murder to deprive a man of his property and inheritance. In revelation she causes the saints to commit immorality. Another interesting verse is

How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers. 22Your silver has become dross, Your drink diluted with water....Isaiah 1:21

[marie glen]

I agree! but maybe only to a point.. :dontknow: I think of the harlot city as man's system.. a definite entity, so to speak, I guess. I think of it as capitalism, which began as free market, mainly u.s. and Christian based originally, and then became corrupt, and has even adopted a spirit of harlotry to entice (and brainwash, mesmerize, away from God).

Yet in essence, of course, it is the same Jezebel spirit.. Always the pull is "away" (from God as opposed to, toward God).

Especially as this city ($ity?) is responsible for all slain upon Earth, which I have taken to mean profit and mammon, man's system as opposed to God's.. love of money.. But actually there is the spirit of it (away.. rebellion?) which underlies it.

:Chinscratch: Maybe, that's the forehead.. confusion (I think of as mystery babble, all untruth).
I read somewhere not too long ago that one of the adversary's names is mammon...? But I can't remember the context or where they got that idea from..