Reconciling the adversaries, Restoring the whole creation

[eaglesway]

I recently read a post on another forum where a believer could see God saving all mankind, but not Satan and demons. They must suffer forever or be annihilated. I understand the sentiment but I do not see that in the scriptures.  It does perhaps, (wondrously) "miss the mark" concerning  the original purpose of God in creation, because the key thing is that the creation was not subjected to futility of its own volition. That includes the entire creation, and I hope to demonstrate through the scriptures, that the whole creation must also be restored.

every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10

Unto what do they bow? When? Why?

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Rom 8:19-22

This is seen(imo) fulfilled in Rev 5

  And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" Rev 5:13

This (again, imo)was the Creator's original plan and purpose, and the reason the Lamb was slain from the beginning of the world.


having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure(eudokia-kind intention) which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. Eph:9,10

The reason every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord is the revelation, breaking like the dawn, in every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth, of His love, reconciliation and transformation into the glorious liberty of the children of God- which is love, light and newness of life.

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. Rom 8:25-29

God is love. Jesus is Lord and the subjection He brings within His Lordship and Kingdom is to love. The conversion/transformation of the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God is a translation from this present evil age into the kingdom of His glorious light. It will eventually transform the whole creation.

As all have been adversaries- all will be converted, every knee shall bow. Else how could God be all in all? How could Jesus be Lord of all? Where there is anger, remorse, agony and hatred, How has every thought been taken captive to the glorious light? How has every tower and stronghold exalted against the true knowledge of God been torn down? His plan is greater than our reasonings, perceptions and sense of justice. Is it better to punish forever than to transform the adversary to friend? The fool to wisdom? The wicked to righteousness? The hater to love?[/color]

"His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms" Eph 3:10

In this age God is demonstrating His wisdom through the ecclesia- the callled out ones, the elect, the firstfruits, us.


Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. Rom 11:33-36

God never planned from the beginning for any creature to dwell in darkness forever, but rather to bring the whole creation through chaos/futility (in the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters and God said, "Let there be light") into being "friends of God", in union, communion and harmony.

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.


This gospel of Jesus and all the apostles has been procalimed to every creature under heaven.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven....." Col 1:15-20

We were all formerly adversaries. We were all reconciled as enemies. So Paul goes further here to show that this gospel of reconciliation is for every creature under heaven.


"....And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.  Col 1:21-23

This is consistent with the writings in all his epistles, and consistent with John, James and Peter......

Peter... "until the times of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the holy prophets from ancient times".  Acts 3:19

And it was the gospel of Peter from day one....

....But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2 Pet 3:13

James.... "You were begotten by the word of truth that you may be a kind of firstfruits of His creation"  James 1:17

Paul... "The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God

John...  And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.  1 John 2:2

For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,  that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever(all generations of the age of the ages). Amen. Eph 3:14-21

Paul's desire for us is that we be rooted and grounded in love..."filled up to all the fulness of God".

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.(Col 1)

We are a kind of firstfruits of His creation.(James 1)

The whole creation is in pangs of childbirth even until now.(Romans 8)

Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.[/b]

Why is He exalted above ALL heavens? Why will every knee bow, whether in heaven or one earth or under the earth? Why is it that God's plan is a "kind intention" which He "purposed in Himself" to "gather all things into one in Christ Jesus"?(Eph 1) Why was it God's pleasure "to make all fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself whether things on earth or in heaven"?(Col 2)

Because He who descended to the lowest place is ascended to the highest place in order that He may fill all things so that God will become ALL IN ALL.

In ALL that He ever created.

[Lazarus Short]

Thank you, that is well said.  :declare:

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

I see these objections as putting a limit on how much better God can be than Satan. As if saying that God is good, but surely not THAT good.

[darryl]

i was in church last sunday and fell down on my knees during the worship  before  the congregation..a young woman came up a few feet in front of me and fell on her knees too...we didnt care what anybody thought...overcome by the depth of Jesus love for me, for us, for ALL ... :dsunny:

[darryl]

Matthew 25:41..."Then he will say to those on his left, 'make your way  from me, you who are cursed, into the  fire aionion prepared for the devil and his angels'.
if the ' Lake of Fire' is 'the fire aionion' and we know the Lake of Fire is the 2nd Death, and Death will be abolished, humans go there and are ultimately reconciled with God...this verse strongly infers that demons and Satan will be reconciled also...because the Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his angels...the Lake of Fire is a place of chastisement and correction for God's creatures who need such correction, not endless torture in fire...and Satan and the demons are definitely 'creatures created by God'.

[CST]

As I've mentioned before I don't believe in Satan, but for the purposes of this topic that doesn't really matter as I am very enamored with the idea of reconciling adversaries. Of course, I think of human adversaries first. We've met them, experienced them, been hurt by them that is where our forgiveness lies.

So, with that in mind, the Bible teaches that know man has ever seen God, but we can meet Him in Jesus. So I have a question, have any or all of us ever met the Devil or do we merely stumble over the obstacles he's put in our way. We know, of course, what the Bible says about adversaries:

'The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.' (Isaiah 11:6-9)

Oh, and it's refrain:

'"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the LORD."' (Isaiah 65:25)

So here's the question: are we required to forgive the Devil as we are required to forgive our human adversaries?

[marie glen]

I would say.. when he asks for forgiveness.. Until then we are to "put on the full armor of God that we will be able to stand in the evil day(s)" ..("for our adversary seeks to devour")... "resist the devil and he will flee from you".. So I figure it's not forgiveness (yet) but resist and arm/armor ourselves against the wiles of the enemy/adversary.. Without that armor, I think we suffer - moods, etc, etc? that otherwise we would not have to.. (Was it Winston Churchill who said "know thy enemy"? :dontknow: )

In Ephesians 6 is the armor -
13 because of this take ye up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to resist in the day of the evil, and all things having done -- to stand.
14 Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about in truth, and having put on the breastplate of the righteousness,
15 and having the feet shod in the preparation of the good-news of the peace;
16 above all, having taken up the shield of the faith, in which ye shall be able all the fiery darts of the evil one to quench,
17 and the helmet of the salvation receive, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the saying (word/s) of God,
18 through all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the Spirit, and in regard to this same, watching in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints --

But when Yahweh is "all in all", then, yes.. we will, I believe, forgive the adversary/opposer.

[CST]

I'm not sure we're generally meant to wait for someone to ask for forgiveness before giving it, it seems God doesn't He just forgives.

That said it's easier to wait for someone to ask because it creates a degree of trust that you won't be 'wasting' your forgiveness. At the same time it's hard to see how you can forgive someone who is continuing in active sin on great proportion. That would be like "I forg-, oh, no. Never mind."

I believe it should possible to forgive any of your personal human enemies whenever you get respite from them, however brief. Not terribly easy though.

[eaglesway]

As I've mentioned before I don't believe in Satan, but for the purposes of this topic that doesn't really matter as I am very enamored with the idea of reconciling adversaries. Of course, I think of human adversaries first. We've met them, experienced them, been hurt by them that is where our forgiveness lies.

So, with that in mind, the Bible teaches that know man has ever seen God, but we can meet Him in Jesus. So I have a question, have any or all of us ever met the Devil or do we merely stumble over the obstacles he's put in our way. We know, of course, what the Bible says about adversaries:

'The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.' (Isaiah 11:6-9)

Oh, and it's refrain:

'"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the LORD."' (Isaiah 65:25)

So here's the question: are we required to forgive the Devil as we are required to forgive our human adversaries?

I think the question about forgiving the devil is an interesting one. Personally I dont think that is our job, and scripturally there is no mention of it anywhere.

The verses in Jude about the angels who left their proper abode and are held in "aidos chains" awaitng the day of judgment are interesting, as is the verse in Ephesians that says God is using the assembly of believers to manifest His wisdom to the principalities and powers.

Since Jesus made a statement about the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels" it is possible that every demon and Satan himself wil be in some way corrected and transformed in whatever the lake of fire represents- 

for instance, the lake of fire may possibly represent the general assembly of the first- born registered in heaven, the elect of God

"Dont you know you will judge angels"?

"Tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"

All these things are seen through a glass darkly and not much is written, but the general principles of reconciliation and restoration would seem to apply across the board as far as I can see because God would not be inconsistent.

Similar to Israel being adversaries of the gospel but beloved for the forefathers sake....

Jude spoke of how carnal men rail against the devil, when Michael the archangel would not do so, saying, "the Lord rebuke you Satan"...this to me seeming to relate to staying in ones proper abode, like Paul said, "By the grace of God I say unto you let no man esteem himself more highly than he ought but judhe yourself soberly for to each of us is given a measure of grace..."

In other words, evryone has a range of function and a domain of grace given to them, even angels. Only pride or lust leads one to seek a higher abode than has been given, rather than to serve humbly.

Jesus, on the other hand, was exalted because he served, not because he sought to be exalted. "For this reason He was given the name above every name...." Phil 2

I think this is close to the core of all iniquity, this desire to be exalted, and to use that exaltation to gather to oneself glory, domion, or gold. The urge to rule others is one of the most cripling addictions and destructive impulses that exists.

It is at the root of deception, "He that speaks His own words seeks his own glory"- Jesus

"They love the high seats in the synagogue"

"For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God"

I find it interesting that in 1 Cor 15 where it talks about "He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet" that when God is all in all, all "rule, power and authority" will have been abolished.

Leading me to believe that when God is all in all there will be no need for rule, power, authority or law of anykind, because where love rules, no one seeks to invade anyone else. Every one live in the joy of sharing, in communion, in harmony and humility.

As to your question about meeting the devil, since he is the father of lies and author of confusion, according to Jesus- an angel of light, a wolf in sheeps clothing- I would guess many have met him and didnt know it, in one form or another; a few have met him and knew it; in one form or another,

It appears to me from the scriptures that he operates in guise and in people corrupted to his will, and through emissaries who are somtimes ignorantly and sometimes knowingly in alliance with him.

As Paul said, we who are children of the light are not ignorant of his wiles- who roams about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

But then you dont believe he exists, so what matters if we meet him or theorize as to what he is and how he works ;o)

[Seth]

I have to say, any anger I had toward Satan dissipated when I discovered UR. Life is hard enough than to be angry at something I can't even see and who has way less power over God's plan than I thought. I agree about being watchful, but I don't think unforgiveness of Satan is any more part of our journey than forgiveness. I don't need to forgive a wild animal. It does whatever its function is. It's just a non issue for me as far as my emotions go.

[eaglesway]

 

I have to say, any anger I had toward Satan dissipated when I discovered UR. Life is hard enough than to be angry at something I can't even see and who has way less power over God's plan than I thought. I agree about being watchful, but I don't think unforgiveness of Satan is any more part of our journey than forgiveness. I don't need to forgive a wild animal. It does whatever its function is. It's just a non issue for me as far as my emotions go.

  :iagree:

[eaglesway]

Personally, I am glad there are things we cannot see clearly, if at all. It reminds me of the immensity of our God, and His works, and His ways.

[Dandelion]

I don't know....reading the last few blogs, something in me thought....we will not be angry with Satan....we will feel badly for him......for all the energy he spent on waste and vanity of vanities.

Even if we haven't resolved all our anger, I don't think we will feel angry in God's presence. It will seem a waste of our energies, at that point, as well.

He will look pathetic, in the light of Jesus. He will be the last of the lost.

Just a thought.......

D.   

[marie glen]

Eaglesway, Dandelion and Seth, great posts! I learned a lot from each one.. At times I have a tendency to despise satan&co. who interfere, it seems to me in every thing in life.. (The first to say (?)  I will exalt myself above the Most High.."?) Working all sides to issues, disputes.. wars. Helping to accelerate whenever possible to wars, division, hatred.. and abuses.. Though I know it's pointless to grieve over people's sufferings and infirmities and misfortunes, tragedies - and - or as, despising the principalities and powers. Doesn't the principalities at all! Better to abide in the peace of knowing Him and UR-the spirit of trust?/shield of faith, peacefully wearing the armor of God. Not stirred up/...angry..

.."the last of the lost.." profound! :thumbsup:

[Ross]

God created satan.
Satan is recognised by Christ as the prince of this age; ergo seems to indicate that satan is here deliberately as part of God's plan.
We are  to learn right from wrong- so this seems to promote role play as necessary to have depictions of what will happen when the wrong motives, desires etc are used.
As Paul says, " if this life is all there is then we should be pitied most of all." 1 Cor 15;19
We are also told not to judge others- satan is an 'other'
Christ said; ' Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Nobody could do that.
Judas was appointed to condemn Christ and expose him. He will be saved as well as us.

I.M.O the 1000 years will remove our ability to blame satan for our mistakes;  but that should then in turn speak to us of our real power/position;  hence the need to actually make informed decisions from the right basis- God.
So much to learn.

[CST]

As I've mentioned before I don't believe in Satan, but for the purposes of this topic that doesn't really matter as I am very enamored with the idea of reconciling adversaries. Of course, I think of human adversaries first. We've met them, experienced them, been hurt by them that is where our forgiveness lies.

So, with that in mind, the Bible teaches that know man has ever seen God, but we can meet Him in Jesus. So I have a question, have any or all of us ever met the Devil or do we merely stumble over the obstacles he's put in our way. We know, of course, what the Bible says about adversaries:

'The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.' (Isaiah 11:6-9)

Oh, and it's refrain:

'"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the LORD."' (Isaiah 65:25)

So here's the question: are we required to forgive the Devil as we are required to forgive our human adversaries?

I think the question about forgiving the devil is an interesting one. Personally I dont think that is our job, and scripturally there is no mention of it anywhere.

The verses in Jude about the angels who left their proper abode and are held in "aidos chains" awaitng the day of judgment are interesting, as is the verse in Ephesians that says God is using the assembly of believers to manifest His wisdom to the principalities and powers.

Since Jesus made a statement about the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels" it is possible that every demon and Satan himself wil be in some way corrected and transformed in whatever the lake of fire represents- 

for instance, the lake of fire may possibly represent the general assembly of the first- born registered in heaven, the elect of God

"Dont you know you will judge angels"?

"Tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"

All these things are seen through a glass darkly and not much is written, but the general principles of reconciliation and restoration would seem to apply across the board as far as I can see because God would not be inconsistent.

Similar to Israel being adversaries of the gospel but beloved for the forefathers sake....

Jude spoke of how carnal men rail against the devil, when Michael the archangel would not do so, saying, "the Lord rebuke you Satan"...this to me seeming to relate to staying in ones proper abode, like Paul said, "By the grace of God I say unto you let no man esteem himself more highly than he ought but judhe yourself soberly for to each of us is given a measure of grace..."

In other words, evryone has a range of function and a domain of grace given to them, even angels. Only pride or lust leads one to seek a higher abode than has been given, rather than to serve humbly.

Jesus, on the other hand, was exalted because he served, not because he sought to be exalted. "For this reason He was given the name above every name...." Phil 2

I think this is close to the core of all iniquity, this desire to be exalted, and to use that exaltation to gather to oneself glory, domion, or gold. The urge to rule others is one of the most cripling addictions and destructive impulses that exists.

It is at the root of deception, "He that speaks His own words seeks his own glory"- Jesus

"They love the high seats in the synagogue"

"For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God"

I find it interesting that in 1 Cor 15 where it talks about "He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet" that when God is all in all, all "rule, power and authority" will have been abolished.

Leading me to believe that when God is all in all there will be no need for rule, power, authority or law of anykind, because where love rules, no one seeks to invade anyone else. Every one live in the joy of sharing, in communion, in harmony and humility.

As to your question about meeting the devil, since he is the father of lies and author of confusion, according to Jesus- an angel of light, a wolf in sheeps clothing- I would guess many have met him and didnt know it, in one form or another; a few have met him and knew it; in one form or another,

It appears to me from the scriptures that he operates in guise and in people corrupted to his will, and through emissaries who are somtimes ignorantly and sometimes knowingly in alliance with him.

As Paul said, we who are children of the light are not ignorant of his wiles- who roams about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

But then you dont believe he exists, so what matters if we meet him or theorize as to what he is and how he works ;o)

Interesting. I asked about meeting Satan because it was consistent with the main message of forgiving our adversaries, most of our adversaries we do meet. Not all but I expect most. Meeting people has adversaries probably does nothing good for a animosity.

But what about my own answer to the question. Directly, of course, I don't think Satan exists to be forgiven but in the passage from Isaiah I references we can read: 'and dust shall be the serpents food.' This continues to have the implication that the serpent eats the dead but whether it actually retains that aspect or not it would seem to suggest the serpent remains under the curse it the next world and so perhaps forgiveness should not be expected for Satan.

[marie glen]

...the serpent slithers over the earth.. I get the sense perhaps the prophecy was said in metaphor? The serpent originally was more upright.. not crawling midst the dust of earth.. A lot of scripture and prophecy, I think, opposite from what we humans think these days, that much prophecy foretells earthly events, not final outcome prophecy. Even many of the fire and brimstone prophecies I most often believe are earth scenes which occur in the earthly arena.

I learned recently that in the thermonuclear bomb or explosion, is sulphur. Which I thought was interesting and didn't know before.

--
Eaglesway's post explains this verse - which to me was always confusing..

Luke 15:16 - "...what is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination in the sight of God."

Thanks Eaglesway! I could never quite get the sense of understanding this verse.. But the verse, I think, encompasses so much! The human behavior you describe in your post, I'm thinking, likely a foundation abomination, yet highly esteemed among men. And perhaps is THE alternate psychology. The apart from God psychology, an abomination. (which it surely is! but is like THE abomination..)

[Seth]

Even if we haven't resolved all our anger, I don't think we will feel angry in God's presence. It will seem a waste of our energies, at that point, as well.

When we see him we will be like him. So yeah... :thumbsup:

[rosered]

  I agree with  so much of the   things brought out in this thread..........
  True it is  GOD whom rebukes satan ,,,,, 
  I saw this in  Jesus telling  Peter  ,  and rebuking him , he was not tasting the  things of God /LIFE /TREE OF LIFE .
  But the things that be of men ...tasting death   as an adversary against the TRUTH .. 
and Michael  saying.'' The LORD rebuke you satan !'', when contending over the  body of moses ..  IN JUDE.

  I have seen a lot of ''mental illness ''  sin sickness rise up out of the   religious   battles and divisions   , making many worse off and not the better for ''seeking Gods face '' over the course of human history.
and DO see a  lot of vanity   , being  useless  efforts  lying against  the TRUTH ...

I guess the greatest proof   that impressed on me was  in Job   41 and any human effort would not prevail against  GOD

But it was all those whom ''joined with the Beast ''   being full of  spiritual pride ,  now this chapter is full of wisdom  .

This beast  , makes a covenant    with God  ,  and the word play is amazing    the LEVI  priesthood   making Leviathan   a  great beast of the sea ,  being many tongues peoples and nations   .......   over the course   of humanity as earthly dwellings .  would never make ''perfect''  complete    , but it sure DID  PROVE GODS WORD  AS TRUE ......making every man a liar .




Now this other beast of the earth being a Behemoth  in Job 40     and was made along with Job  on the 6th day  ,being the inward man of the heart and the outward man    as a beast  , being both the  good and the evil image 



I can  certainly see this as being      the trees of knowledge of good and evil   God planted in the earth and what  man sees and judges  according to the outward appearances  [image ]   and the vain imaginations  take a  hold of .

I have certainly considered this to imply , GOD GAVE  mankind an earthly wisdom  that is not different than a beast   in the  natures  ,  that ECC 3  speaks of  , giving  great clues and in Jude being the natural brute beast  that bring on  their own demise and destroy themselves with .

  Being led  by this kind of wisdom of the carnal mind and nature God   gave them to work  painfully   fruitlessly  from , many kingdoms to be brought  down from their own high places they built up from in the earth    and ruling over many of the weaker    types and  helpless  natures ,   I see our own government  doing this with hate and greed and  abuse of power over the peoples tongues and nations and also in the religious circles  being the sea monster    , both  being beasts

as past , present and future  as  an end of fruitless pursuit and nothing   but dead works to show for it


Gen 1  24Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. 25God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

      26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."


29Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed;

it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
 
These are very powerful Living WORDS    about the seeds and trees and what we eat   to sustain  us    and what manner of trees we are eating from 

   The mixing of good and evil has  PROVEN GOD IS TRUE   every single time  , but the offering of the tree of Life   is in JESUS CHRIST  ,   THE OPEN SHOWING OF A NEW AND BETTER WAY   AND LIFE    WOULD COME  and never die though HIM    , THIS SEED IS THE INCORRUPTIBLE ONE 

You being evil know how to give good gifts to your children , how much more will the Heavenly Father give the good gifts / HOLY SPIRIT to those whom ask HIM ! These are the only   good and living works   that  endure   all things .

  and cannot be  corrupted    being is is the TRUE AND  VERY PERFECT IMAGE OF GOD   HIMSELF
 
When GOD said though Jesus Christ being the very SPIRIT OF PROPHECY as fulfilling  ,''  all things into HIMSELF '',    the  true worshippers  will worship GOD IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH  ONLY  ,as He is seeking out the hearts of mankind ,and giving these gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT     now , it will be the only thing that survives and everything else will fail   the test      and not survive  in GODS PRESENCE    and the only IMAGE    we can  trust in fully and completely   and perfectly  in the END
GOD IN HIS WISDOM  ONLY .

[CST]

...the serpent slithers over the earth.. I get the sense perhaps the prophecy was said in metaphor? The serpent originally was more upright.. not crawling midst the dust of earth.. A lot of scripture and prophecy, I think, opposite from what we humans think these days, that much prophecy foretells earthly events, not final outcome prophecy. Even many of the fire and brimstone prophecies I most often believe are earth scenes which occur in the earthly arena.

I learned recently that in the thermonuclear bomb or explosion, is sulphur. Which I thought was interesting and didn't know before.

--
Eaglesway's post explains this verse - which to me was always confusing..

Luke 15:16 - "...what is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination in the sight of God."

Thanks Eaglesway! I could never quite get the sense of understanding this verse.. But the verse, I think, encompasses so much! The human behavior you describe in your post, I'm thinking, likely a foundation abomination, yet highly esteemed among men. And perhaps is THE alternate psychology. The apart from God psychology, an abomination. (which it surely is! but is like THE abomination..)

Well, that's just it isn't it? Current Christian theology seems to teach that the term 'serpent' equals the term 'Devil' or 'Satan' directly. When you believe the story of Eden as a literal history you are obligated either to believe the Devil took the form of a serpent in order to beguile Eve. Or else 'serpent' is simply an active synonymous term that the writer and Eve can use to describe Satan and both understand what it actually means. This concept seems unlikely because without the knowledge of Good and Evil which Eve did not yet possess why would she know who Satan was. The term 'Satan' never appears in Genesis at all.

Now EW mentioned a statement of Jesus in which He said Satan can take the form of an Angel of Light. Now this is an interesting statement which seems to reference a pseudepigraphal text 'The Books Of Adam and Eve (and similar) in which Adam and Eve attempt to do penitence of Adam's own design in the hope that God with let them back into Eden - Adam fasting Eve standing mute in a river for forty days. In the story Satan appears to Eve - again - disguised as 'the brightness of angels' to try to get Eve to abandon her penitence by telling her it has achieved it's purpose. Whether he succeeds or not depends on which version of the story you're reading (although the one where he doesn't is supposedly narrated by her :rolleye:) and it is just as possible, as far as I know, the story could be written by early Christians based on what Jesus is recorded as saying. But there's a phrase and a reference for the phrase.

I mention these because there is also a pseudepigral book 'The Book Of Adam' where the serpent is not Satan but instead is employed by Satan to deceive Eve. Just to show that religious history appears not to always have held the same position on this matter.

On the matter of prophesy I agree that it may speak more to future world history that the final victory of our Lord, but you must concede that those passages from Isaiah appear to describe a very strong victory it's hard to image the New Earth being less than is described there. Even though as advocates for UR we believe eventually there will be no dead for the serpent to feed on because they will all be raised by Jesus to life eventually. Of course, the curse also culminates in that same Jesus eventually crushing the serpent's head. Which sounds pretty final no matter how optimistic I try to be. But I don't believe in the Devil so this action doesn't refer to the final destruction of any real character but simply the forces that might lead humans away from God and towards those abominable things which they high esteem. A phrase that I feel needs careful understanding. The story of thing that enables ETers to write of most of the species because we're all irredeemably incorrigible.

The Bible says that we both no how to give good gifts to our children and that our thoughts are immovably evil from the first. taken absolutely literally these phrases are mutually exclusive. Something who thinks on naught but evil cannot possibly know what good is but the Bible suggests that in some sense both are true. The Bible is a wonderful book full of allusions, poetry, irony and hyperbole. A failure to see things in the Bible for what they are is what is most likely to mislead the reader into thinking the inspired Bible says something it doesn't.

God created satan.
Satan is recognised by Christ as the prince of this age; ergo seems to indicate that satan is here deliberately as part of God's plan.
We are  to learn right from wrong- so this seems to promote role play as necessary to have depictions of what will happen when the wrong motives, desires etc are used.
As Paul says, " if this life is all there is then we should be pitied most of all." 1 Cor 15;19
We are also told not to judge others- satan is an 'other'
Christ said; ' Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Nobody could do that.
Judas was appointed to condemn Christ and expose him. He will be saved as well as us.

I.M.O the 1000 years will remove our ability to blame satan for our mistakes;  but that should then in turn speak to us of our real power/position;  hence the need to actually make informed decisions from the right basis- God.
So much to learn.

I neglected to mention last time how beautiful I thought that post was. Although it may invite more questions than it answers.

Even if we haven't resolved all our anger, I don't think we will feel angry in God's presence. It will seem a waste of our energies, at that point, as well.

When we see him we will be like him. So yeah... :thumbsup:

I like that idea on many levels but I fear it underestimates human capacity to be irrational. Remember the Bible teaches that only those chosen by God go on to choose God. I don't think that changes in the next life. People remain in rebellion until such a time as God brings therm out of it which is according to His own timetable.

[marie glen]

When thinking about the adversary I usually think of the verse Revelation 12:9 - "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."

I can see how to a degree it is metaphoric.. But since Jesus referred to whatever force it is, as an entity/personality, that's the way I take it..

But it seems to me the important thing is, whatever we think the adversary is, is to have our spiritual defenses up and intact. I'm currently learning this. After, abide in Christ, drink the water of the word (daily bread and new wine), always be yield, yielding.. is being added keep spiritual armor - "the armor of God" fully on and secure.

A failure to see things in the Bible for what they are is what is most likely to mislead the reader into thinking the inspired Bible says something it doesn't.

I totally agree with that. :smile:

..Remember the Bible teaches that only those chosen by God go on to choose God. I don't think that changes in the next life. People remain in rebellion until such a time as God brings therm out of it which is according to His own timetable.

I see some of it is being under a veil.. under untruth.. Case in point, people are now educated to believe the idea of a creator/sustainer God, and the bible, is fairy tale. (But once one investigates the 'science' for their self it is soon apparent the case is so very far from closed. :laughing7: )

Satan, whatever he/it may be "has blinded the minds.." Yet God only removes the veil.. How can both be true? I can't answer for others, but after praying about it, the answers I received was God is both life and perfection. When he endowed thinking ability (to angel and man) it was then that a whole new world (tree) of possibilities came to be. Rational creatures - no matter what degree of rationality - can make choices.

But any tiny degree of differing in thought, word or deed with what He chooses, is to become imperfect, the opposite of life. Hence life as it is and death.. So the rescue was built in from the foundation/beginning. And thus, "The kingdom of heaven - is like leaven a woman hid in 3 measures of meal, till aLL was leavened." - "As in Adam aLL die, even so in Christ aLL will be made alive. 23 But, every man in his own order: (1)Christ the firstfruits; (2)afterward they that are Christ's at his coming, then -- the end, (3)when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.. 28 that God may be aLL in aLL."

These verses tell us everything we need to know. WE know exactly what numbers (1) and (2) are. In between number (2) and number (3) is where we employ some speculation. It encompasses the shutting satan up in the abyss for 1000 years while Jesus reigns upon Earth. Most believers - well, some anyway, are pretty clear on that (the return, then millennium of Christ).

So we have the in between. Has not God said that via the Holy Spirit He would show to His own "things to come"? When I prayed about it, I found myself imagining myself awaking, instead of in the resurrection at His return, awaking from my sleep in the grave in the 2nd resurrection, as my previous, not yet born again self. As one "still in my sins". That gave me a whole new aspect and view of that day we call Judgment Day, and which is biblically, the great white throne judgment.

So I guess, this how we agree, in a sense. It's here, right at the 2nd resurrection, that I believe many will at that moment "be called". I've tended to think of it as 'after experiencing being woke up from the grave after death and also witnessing a great day of review of all human history, etc.. who's not going to "believe" and thus be written in the book of life?'

That's not doctrine, it's my own thoughts on the matter. But I have some faith in it as it all came to me while in prayer and communion with Him. That's my experience. I can't deny my own experience. I also can't easily pass it on, if it be based in truth. Not easily, but I think its likely I'll be like a broken record.. especially as I tend to forget what I've conversed about and haven't, called "repeating myself" :laughing7:

Yes, since coming to tentmaker and reading the view of the next ages on pages and discussion here, I now think there may bery well be some stubborn very hard cases that will still refuse to bend the knee! :mshock: :faint: who will go to the lake of fire, the 2nd death.

Now just recently I've begun to think of this, 2nd death, as the believer's - those born again during this brief life - as their 1st death. And physical death as their 2nd death! Hence, "not hurt of the 2nd death" for we rise in complete newness of Life. But a nonbeliever's first death is physical death. And their immersion into the great lake of the "fire of God's jealousy and correction".

Also, upon awaking in a resurrection "still in one's sins" would be to awaken in that bright (and harsh) all revealing Light of God and His Presence and Throne. I can't help but think many ordinary folks will fall to their knees in awe.. happy to be resurrected :smile: but othere, in all different degrees, will find their selves in deep weeping.. and some will even gnash their teeth.. But - According to #(3) - "when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.. 28 that God may be aLL in aLL" - we KNOW He will be successful in redeeming every soul and psyche.

All I'm saying is, yes, God is the one who calls and chooses, but paradoxically - like so many biblical things are, i also believe we are endowed with some self direction.. But I don't think of it as a matter of 'blame'. We're all to 'blame' - tho too, God Himself is to 'blame' - He endowed rationality/thinking ability - all the more reason He's not going to 'lose' any! Since He Himself designed all things according to His own plan and design of outworking..

I think in a certain degree, I've been babbling.. sorry.. gotta run.. :Peace2:
P.S. - i also agree, some great replies in this thread.. (per usual:)

[CST]

I'm not sure how to understand the term 'dragon' in the Bible. Obviously dragons don't exist but a reader of English imagines a large four-limbed reptilian creature with huge wings that breaths fire. I'm not sure if that would be the beast translation of the Greek word involved and if it is, is that how John would understand a dragon.

There's a bit more to people's disbelief than how they're 'educated' again the Bible teaches people will or will not believe depending on whether or not God has chosen them too. The arguments that God is a 'fairy tale' is just their way of intellectually justifying their unbelief after the fact.

But I do agree and already understand that only God is Holy and 'perfect' in the absolute sense. And in that sense that will always be true, we will always be 'very good' in that sense because only God is perfect. He founded a new creation when He made us our goal is a 'perfection' according to the design of our creation where we stop doing this that hurt, destroy and otherwise thwart the goals of that creation.

I've had my own vision of the resurrection and my own vision of 'Hell' I can't remember which came first but they were both very powerful experiences. But I can't share them so I don't speak of them much. But my experience of the resurrection almost made me believe in the rapture. These aren't NDEs they're experiences I had that kind of forced themselves on me.

Who ask "who's not going to believe?" I share the sentiment and sympathize with it especially in the past even those who believed in UR were viciously minded when it came to how they understood the process of punishing those God didn't choose. There's a topic I want to write on this in way I hope will be able to promote the purposes of UR.
I've also seen things in the Bible, the gate to the New Jerusalem being left open, the 'death' of death and the place in Samuel where King Saul uses God's victory to pardon all capital criminals on the ground of that victory make me inclined to agree with you.

But I don't think the Lake Of Fire is an empty threat or prediction, God shows Himself to be wrathful many times in the Bible (but...) and when I see your question who will not believe my answer remains, who ever God decides. We can hope that will turn out to be a small number due to the compassion and mercy we are instructed to live by. But we can't know.

And another reason I hope to write that other topic is that I think ET and ED advocates have really done a number on everyone to the point that when they awaken at the resurrection I don't think many will be happy. Some will, of course, and smug with it, they'll probably wish they had been more compassionate and less self-righteous. But I feel many who awake and did not believe and perhaps several who did will awake and be utterly terrified because of what they've been led to believe about the fact of those 'like' them.

Thanks God for them that UR is true. And I don't think you been babbling, well, if so, only slightly. Thanks for listening and responding.

[eaglesway]

Nice post CST.

Another really good look at what the dragon is is in Isaiah 27

In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
            With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
            Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
            And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

He will slay the dragon that lives in the deep.... to me this is figurative. The light of day pursues the "author of confusion(chaos)" into the deep deep places where he lurks and twists, justifying himself. "In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters and GOD SAID.... the GREAT  and MIGHTY sword of His word....LET THERE BE LIGHT.

But yet, it is also literal, for all these things will be brought to light by the Day of His appearing.

But further as to the metaphor

Leviathan lives in all the sons of pride..

the whole of Job 41 explains him metaphorically

31"He makes the depths boil like a pot;
            He makes the sea like a jar of ointment.

      32"Behind him he makes a wake to shine;
            One would think the deep to be gray-haired.

      33"Nothing on earth is like him,
            One made without fear.

      34"He looks on everything that is high;
            He is king over all the sons of pride."

I think tfurther his is explained also in Heb 4

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Let there be light, light divided from darkness, chaos and emptiness into harmony and fulness.

This is what I think aionian kolassis(Gehenna, the lake of fire) is- not physical torment of anykind, but rather being pentrated by the light and having Leviathan pulled up from the deep and slain(deceptive prideful heart pierced by the sword of the Spirit, every veil torn by the light of His countenance)

I do believe many will bow the knee instantly and rejoice, but ersonally, I dont think it ill be "just a few hard cases" that experience aionian kolassis in the lake of fire.

The question is (imo) not, "Who will not believe?" in the sense of, "Who will not believe what their eyes see".

That is not what it means to believe in the biblical sense.

We who adore Him can perhaps not fathom aionian adversaries standing before the throne unwilling to acknowledge their rebellion, but I have seen people shake their fist at God as they walked through the door into eternity and I have seen wickedness and depravity at such deep levels that I both believe that many adversaries are harder of heart than we can imagine- and I believe that there are sins committed in this world that can ONLY be answered in the olam of God.

Leviathan ...

14"Who can open the doors of his face?
            Around his teeth there is terror.

      15"His strong scales are his pride,
            Shut up as with a tight seal.

      16"One is so near to another
            That no air can come between them.

Only the sharp two edged sword that comes from the mouth of the Lord can pierce Him

The scriptures clearly say that there will be people who experience aionian consequences for their earthly acts and attitudes.

God is not, imo, one to warn people about something He has no intention of invoking, or to strongly speak to a recompense that He never intends to levy upon those who mock Him.

For instance, I agree that Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years, with ten thousands of ten thousands of resurrected saints as preists on earth- but all through that 1000 years their will still be enemies, adversaries and sinners to subject...

and at the end of the thousand years the adversary will be released and there will be a final rebellion into which, it appears a vast number of people will fall. So "Who can see and not believe"? apparently many can see and "not convert".

Otherwise ther would be no need of ANY MENTION of aionian kolassis.

Yet, there are scriptural warnings to the wicked concerning aionian consequences or wickedness from JESUS AND EVERY APOSTLE.

James says...

THE DEVILS BELIEVE AND TREMBLE....

That kind of belief will not save from aionian consequences, imo-

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. 2Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. 3Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire.

While I rejoice with joy unspekable and full of glory that every advesary will be reconciled, I dont think the process to "subjection" will be pleasant for all of them and I continue to warn such of the judgment to come.

[rosered]

  :HeartThrob:  Good Word John !

Thinking today of  how even  Michael the angel did not rebuke  satan the  adversary  to Gods will  , but said the Lord rebuke you satan .

  and  How it is the Lord whom rebukes us and chastens us !! and How He done Peter when he was tasting the things that be of men and not  GOD

and How he told satan to WORSHIP GOD and him only shall   you serve    in Matt4 and Luke 4    Hebrews 12 

God Disciplines His Sons
...5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you.

6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son.

" 7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?...

  These things have really have me looking closer than ever before      and  repentance  is changing your mind ,  from the carnal  and beast  nature to the Mind of Christ     ,  the mind of Christ    is the token of the HOLY SPIRIT  working in us all to know the spiritual things  of God Spiritual Wisdom
...15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment. 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
21Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

  Only God  can give us   these things , they come from no man  ever ...
 

[marie glen]

Very nice verses Rose! :dsunny:

..."punishing those God didn't choose" - this is one reason why I sometimes think few will actually go to the lake of fire.. just a few (relatively speaking) despots.. or some who have trained their heart to habitually, no matter what, reject God. A sin unable to be forgiven? while held to, that is? Other times, because of the horrors of history, I think many will experience the wrath of God.. But then again, half the time, I think a majority of that will be via what's called "the apocalypse" when man's empire, finally gone global and predatory, crashes and burns. A graphic example to all.

In the way that I think of things, I can't help thinking that in God's truth proving drama, there has to be those wicked doers who do so wickedly they trigger the very 'burning' wrath of God - like when humans offered babes alive in fire to idols.. What righteous God worth His salt wouldn't be angry!? History is full of some terrible stuff. So I find myself thinking there will be a lot of weeping and burning shame on day of judgment following the resurrection of all who rise (eeek) still in their sins, not yet chosen of God..
:2c: :smile: