Is not believing in Jesus........

[chester-blowfold]

a sin?

[Seth]

Yes, I believe so but not an intentional one. And I think the Bible shows that God is long suffering and slow to anger among those who sin in ignorance (ie not knowing it's a sin).

I base my opinions on the Biblical definition of sin (lawlessness) and how that God's commandments are that we believe in Jesus and love eachother. 1 John 3

[Lazarus Short]

If you define sin as missing the mark, then not believing in Jesus certainly is a sin.

[micah7:9]

If you define sin as missing the mark, then not believing in Jesus certainly is a sin.

I must agree.

[MichelleSR]

I think that the way we live is more important than what we believe intellectually.  I don't know very much about other religions, but my impression is that they focus more on the self.  They are about maybe following rules and also reaping rewards for themselves.  Jesus taught and demonstrated with His life and death that the greatest are the ones who no longer live for themselves but live for others, the humble, the meek, etc. 

So I am thinking, everyone has a conscience and knows this deep down.  But everyone also rejects this (some more than others) unless they are born again.  Can a person from another country who was brought up in another religion become born again and choose to live the way Jesus taught without actually believing in Him?  I'm really not sure although I have to say I hope so.  However it also makes sense that all those people would eventually be led by the Lord to Jesus and they will naturally want to convert and accept Him.

The thing is, if you are intellectually doubtful about the details about how He died or if He died for your sins, I don't think it matters as much since it says repeatedly in the Bible that we are judged for all the things we DO in our lives.  (Yes it says we are saved by faith but it also says faith without deeds is dead, and since we are all ultimately saved I think deeds do matter quite a bit.  Otherwise what are we physically here in the physical world for?). Now I'm being a hypocrite myself though - my belief in Jesus has been just fine but I feel like the rest of my world is falling apart and I haven't been doing what He commanded to do very well at all lately. 

I think believing in what He stood for (loving others, serving others) is the most important. 

Is it a sin?   I think that for some it is a sin and for others it is not, depending on the background.  Once someone really understands Him and feels He has called them and they choose to reject Him then obviously that would be a sin, probably the biggest sin since all the other sins basically stem from that disbelief.

[jabcat]

I believe true saving belief on Jesus is not just "intellectual".  It's a work of the Holy Spirit, a calling, drawing, providing of faith, a death of the old man and giving of life of the new man.  Change of heart, change of nature, change of family. A God-given miracle.  True saving faith changes from within, and produces good works - works of His through us.  "we are saved by grace, not of works..."   Obedience and walking in the Spirit is very important, I agree, and has consequences now and in the day of judgment.  For believers there will be loss of reward..for many unbelievers, ,shame and regret.

Everyone is born with a conscience and there can be some level of justification or judgment based on that and actions.  I believe that likely ties into "few stripes or many stripes", rather than salvation itself.  I'm one that feels strongly that to truly be a born again believer, be saved/taste of salvation, one must know who Jesus is and call on/turn to Him.  Romans 10:13  "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?"    I believe those who've never heard and live according to a good conscience, will likely accept Him readily ("few stripes") when He's revealed to them in the next age.  While those who resisted and seared their conscience, feeding on wickedness, will likely face "more stripes" and have a harder time kneeling and confessing.  More difficulty having their will broken to surrender to Him and His will.  But every knee must, and will, bow.  Each according to their need, and God knows what that is for each.

I certainly think not believing on Jesus is sin - probably the ultimate sin.  IMO, that's why Jesus died, to bridge the gap between us and Him, through belief on His name.  Without and before coming to that point, for each of us, we were/are "without hope and without God in the world "(Ephesians 2:12).  God reconciled Himself to us (made the Way)..now each must be reconciled to Him - as He draws and calls, and gives faith to believe.

2 Cor. 5:20 Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

[chester-blowfold]

The thing is, if you are intellectually doubtful about the details about how He died or if He died for your sins, I don't think it matters as much since it says repeatedly in the Bible that we are judged for all the things we DO in our lives.  (Yes it says we are saved by faith but it also says faith without deeds is dead, and since we are all ultimately saved I think deeds do matter quite a bit.  Otherwise what are we physically here in the physical world for?). Now I'm being a hypocrite myself though - my belief in Jesus has been just fine but I feel like the rest of my world is falling apart and I haven't been doing what He commanded to do very well at all lately
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, where does it say you need to do deeds too?

[chester-blowfold]

Jabcat, I certainly believe in God but find it hard to believe in Jesus (with plenty of asking behind me), say I died tomorrow where would I stand in the eyes of our Lord God?

[MichelleSR]

James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)

"Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

____


Is it just me or are these verses NEVER discussed in churches?  I feel like the only Christian out there who thinks works not only matter, but that they matter a great deal.  Anyway, I feel like perhaps people don't talk about this because they don't want to feel burdened by the responsibility or recognize the difference between what they are actually doing and their potential.  I could be wrong. 

But I don't feel burdened by it because I know that God sees me as good enough the way I am.  He knows my limitations and loves me anyway and I feel like anything I do, if I do it for Him, will be the right thing.  Now that I am coming around to the idea of universalism, I am feeling much more encouraged to do good things for Him.

[MichelleSR]

Chester-blowfold,

I think there are two kinds of people who reject Jesus.  One kind of person is like my father.  He's an atheist and the probably the most brilliant person I know.  He is a physicist and puts his "faith" in science, not in the Bible.  He just doesn't believe in all the miracles that He performed, doesn't believe that a virgin could become pregnant, doesn't believe a man can rise from the dead, etc. 

However, he does have a "religion," I can tell.  He believes in respecting others, is faithful to his wife, and probably leads one of the most "christian" lives amongst the people that I know (more so than some professing Christians actually), and yet he doesn't believe that the Bible could be true.  Is my father "saved" at this moment?  Goodness, no one knows except God if someone else is saved, but if you follow Christian teachers, you may notice that a lot of them accuse all the other Christian teachers of not being "saved" because of varying beliefs on what it actually means to be saved. 

The other people who reject Jesus, IMO, are the ones who understand what He taught and reject Him because they do not want to face their own sinful and selfish nature, and He highlights that.  They do not want to love others as themselves, do not want to be forgiving, would rather worship money or fame or whatever addictions they may have, compare themselves to the rest of this fallen world and say "I'm not so bad" when in reality they could be so much more loving.  Those people are the ones who are truly not "believing" in Jesus because they are rejecting everything He stood for.

Jesus said that whoever loves Him will obey Him, but whoever does not obey Him does not love Him.  Obeying Him to me means living our lives in a way that comes as close as humanly possible (and of course we are quite limited and He understands that) to the life that He led and the way He taught us to be. 

[Seth]

Jabcat, I certainly believe in God but find it hard to believe in Jesus (with plenty of asking behind me), say I died tomorrow where would I stand in the eyes of our Lord God?

The thing I would wonder first is where you stand with God right now. Tomorrow would be the same, I would think.

[Seth]

John 1
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[jabcat]

Jabcat, I certainly believe in God but find it hard to believe in Jesus (with plenty of asking behind me), say I died tomorrow where would I stand in the eyes of our Lord God?

Hi chester.  I'll try to help, but without overstepping bounds of trying to "play God", if you know what I mean.  So I'll share some thoughts;

salvation is through Jesus.  He states He is the only way.  The Bible also states that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.  J. Preston Eby, a man well-respected by TM, and who has studied extensively for many years, states that God will do whatever is necessary to break man's stubborn will.  I don't know what is necessary for anyone.  God does, and He convicts the heart of man to turn to Him.  I believe it will be various times and punishment/correction for various people, depending on their needs.  Your heart's condition is between you and God, He knows, and He convicts to give you some idea of your need for Him - the desperation of your heart in need of a Savior.  I don't know when He is or will call you, maybe now since you're asking and thinking about it.  But again, that's between you and Him.  He does say though in scripture, that "today is the day of salvation". 

I've heard of people praying things like "if you exist help me..I believe the best I can, and the best I can I turn to you, save me..help me to truly believe", etc.  I may write more as the thoughts settle in a bit, but I'll be praying for you.

[CST]

Chester, I think you have just gone and asked one of the most difficult questions in Christendom.

Is not believing in Jesus a sin? Well, obviously this word 'believing' has multiple meanings in this case you mean believing in Jesus as described in the Bible as opposed to simply believing Jesus was a historical figure who once walked the Earth.

Believing in this thread appears to be understood as accepting versus rejecting Jesus as Lord and Savior of yourself and Mankind. Here's the thing to proponents of UR this is very important to their reasoning for advocating UR. The Bible teaches that no human can accept Jesus unless God takes the initiative. Let to themselves they will never find God we're all just blundering around in the dark. The idea of grace is the Jesus has to reveal Himself to each individual so they can accept Him. To those who argue for UR this results in the question of how is it fair that those who God didn't choose to reveal Himself to in their lifetime should go to Hell forever for a choice they themselves couldn't make. To a ET or ED advocate God must therefore reveal Himself to everyone at least once so that they have this choice and where they go after death is determined by what position they are in at death. ED and ET advocates claim that people have a completely free choice of whether or not to choose Jesus. UR advocates point out that the Bible still says people cannot accept Jesus unless Jesus basically makes them so there's no choice at all (so they can not boast, etc).

This leads us to the strange position of suggesting that people who reject Jesus are sinners. I would say that were true if if were actually possible to reject Jesus when He chose to reveal Himself to you which the Bible seems to suggest it's not. It's harder to say people who have yet to accept Jesus because He hasn't yet revealed Himself to them are sinners on account of not believing in Jesus because they haven't been been given that option yet.

The Bible teaches that all mankind are sinners and stuck in sin until they believe in/ accept Jesus, but the suggest is that it is more on account of Adam's unbelief in Jesus than their own.

James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)

"Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

____


Is it just me or are these verses NEVER discussed in churches?  I feel like the only Christian out there who thinks works not only matter, but that they matter a great deal.  Anyway, I feel like perhaps people don't talk about this because they don't want to feel burdened by the responsibility or recognize the difference between what they are actually doing and their potential.  I could be wrong. 

But I don't feel burdened by it because I know that God sees me as good enough the way I am.  He knows my limitations and loves me anyway and I feel like anything I do, if I do it for Him, will be the right thing.  Now that I am coming around to the idea of universalism, I am feeling much more encouraged to do good things for Him.

Our site founder wrote an article about this. It's a strange article given that one of the primary pillars of Tentmaker is the innerancy of the Bible but I'll post the link for you for your approval.

http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/2011/james-is-really-jacob/

I explained what I felt about the relationship between faith and works on another thread, but it was clearly wrong in some way since no one cared to address it so I won't repeat it here. I will say I imagine there to be both many forms of work and many forms of worship and many forms of prayer and many people do many of the all the time and God may well be willing to receive them later if not now when they individual receives Jesus in this age (preferably) or the next.

[Seth]

I agree with Jabcat, that faith is not simply an intellectual acknowledgement but a calling and renewal. The Hebrew word for fatih is enumah, which means faithfulness. So, Abraham was faithful, not that he just believed God intellectually. More info:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/the-hebrew-word-for-faith-(and-so-it-was-fulfilled-)/

Here are the scripture's words on both SIN and FAITH. It's pretty clear:

1 John 3
4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

19This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

[jabcat]

faith is not simply an intellectual acknowledgement but a calling and renewal.

Here are the scripture's words on both SIN and FAITH. It's pretty clear:

:thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

To Seth,

The word 'enumah', I was told, by my good friend, a Pastor, who was born and raised an Orthodox Jew, means 'an open vessel' usually used for such things as capturing rain water.

I am told it looks like a bowl, with a very wide opening on top, to capture all the water it can hold. And, he compares faith to this.....to be open and eager to 'catch' all the love; wisdom; understanding and truth that we can, by emptying ourselves of us and allowing Him to literally fill us up.

To Chester,

I don't know if the concept of sin, as most of us know it, is really the best picture to have here, in regards to believing in Jesus.

While I definitely acknowledge that it is a gift of grace, from the most High, I also say that we are told in Psalm 27 to seek God's face.

I don't know the combination of things that must occur, precisely, or how it occurs, but I do think we must ask God to show us 'His face'.

As David of the OT asked of God, we must also all ask Him to search our hearts.

Psalm 139:

For the choir director. A Psalm of David.

1O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
      2You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
            You understand my thought from afar.

      3You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
            And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.

      4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
            Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

      5You have enclosed me behind and before,
            And laid Your hand upon me.

      6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
            It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

      7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
            Or where can I flee from Your presence?

      8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
            If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

      9If I take the wings of the dawn,
            If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,

      10Even there Your hand will lead me,
            And Your right hand will lay hold of me.

      11If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me,
            And the light around me will be night,"

      12Even the darkness is not dark to You,
            And the night is as bright as the day.
            Darkness and light are alike to You.

      13For You formed my inward parts;
            You wove me in my mother's womb.

      14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
            Wonderful are Your works,
            And my soul knows it very well.

      15My frame was not hidden from You,
            When I was made in secret,
            And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;

      16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
            And in Your book were all written
            The days that were ordained for me,
            When as yet there was not one of them.

      17How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
            How vast is the sum of them!

      18If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand.
            When I awake, I am still with You.

      19O that You would slay the wicked, O God;
            Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed.

      20For they speak against You wickedly,
            And Your enemies take Your name in vain.

      21Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD?
            And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

      22I hate them with the utmost hatred;
            They have become my enemies.

      23Search me, O God, and know my heart;
            Try me and know my anxious thoughts;

      24And see if there be any hurtful way in me,
            And lead me in the everlasting way.

I personally find that when I am most sincere and intent when praying is often when I receive my most amazingly direct answers.

Rather than think of 'sin' in the traditional sense, I would prefer to think of our searching for God as being in His light or in being in darkness.

I do believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

I believe He was sent by His father to be the link between a God we cannot see and one who came to earth, as one of us, to show us the way home. He is Emmanuel, God With Us.

I also believe that if one's heart is sincere, that is a very important step, and I know that God can see that, in us.

Trust God to lead you, don't depend on yourself; be honest with yourself; seek God's face in prayer, His word and through the Holy Spirit; always seek truth, and attempt to live your life in the light, and not the darkness.

I don't know if there is anymore that can be asked of anyone.

I pray that you have the peace that surpasses all understanding, that God alone can give.

D.

[Seth]

Dandelion  :thumbsup:

[chester-blowfold]

Jabcat, I certainly believe in God but find it hard to believe in Jesus (with plenty of asking behind me), say I died tomorrow where would I stand in the eyes of our Lord God?

The thing I would wonder first is where you stand with God right now. Tomorrow would be the same, I would think.

God I'll always believe in. Jesus? Not so sure and that's not to say even though I believe in God I'm not a  tosser about God at times.
Firstly I thought you needed to believe in Jesus to know God?
Secondly I thought you couldn't blaspheme and know God (i'm always blaspheming, I've a disgraceful mouth on me, and I've no excuse as it wasn't the way I was brought up).

[CST]

Hmm, I'm not saying you don't blaspheme like crazy. But my experience is that an awful lot of people like to trap others into blasphemy when only God can really identify what blasphemy is.

[micah7:9]

My thought, if you miss the mark.....what do you have. :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

Hmm, I'm not saying you don't blaspheme like crazy. But my experience is that an awful lot of people like to trap others into blasphemy when only God can really identify what blasphemy is.

AGREED!

You do have to know Jesus to know God. You can know God and blaspheme- not that there is no consequence to sin- but there is a remedy for it, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

All sin is not blasphemy. Missing the mark is not blasphemy.

Under such a strict interpretation of the word as that we would ALL walk in total futility, because as James said, "We all stumble in many ways" and as Paul said, "When I try to do good evil is present with me".

Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Thank God for Jesus Christ!

Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ and walk according to the Spirit....."