So is this basically an evangelical forum?

[chester-blowfold]

Don't get me wrong though, as it's a nice evangelical forum where everyone eventually gets to go to heaven through their admittance (not forced mind) of Jesus as our saviour?

[jabcat]

This may help;

Quoting Gary Amirault;

"[The aforementioned forms of Universalism ("all roads", "it doesn't matter what you believe or W/who you believe in - or not, etc.)] is NOT the universalism of Tentmaker Ministries, or true Christian universalism. We have nothing to do with the various forms of the New Age Movement. There is only one Name under heaven by which one must be saved as far as Gary Amirault and Tentmaker Ministries goes -- that name is Jesus the Christ (English), Yeshua Ha Machiach (Hebrew), Iesus Christos (Greek). There are no "ascended masters" as far as we are concerned. Everything we believe centers around the Father of Creation, His Son Whom the Father sent to redeem the world and His Holy Spirit, Whom Jesus sent to "lead us into all truth."

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently saved.  At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

[bushy]

In my opinion it's not about getting to heaven as much as being saved from ourselves and the grip sin has on all of us. And being saved is not a reward for believing but the natural outcome of believing the truth instead of lies. "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free". So keep on wrestling with these things in your mind and eventually a light will come on and you'll know what is the truth. That's how it was with me a little at a time and faith grows.

[darryl]

And being saved is not a reward for believing but the natural outcome of believing the truth instead of lies.

:thumbsup:

[Patinak]

In my opinion it's not about getting to heaven as much as being saved from ourselves and the grip sin has on all of us. And being saved is not a reward for believing but the natural outcome of believing the truth instead of lies. "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free". So keep on wrestling with these things in your mind and eventually a light will come on and you'll know what is the truth. That's how it was with me a little at a time and faith grows.

Good words.

[jabcat]

I haven't spent a whole lot of time thinking about it, but the question re: evangelical forum prompted me to look up just what evangelical is/how it's defined.  From nea.org

"What is an Evangelical?

Evangelicals take the Bible seriously and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

The term "evangelical" comes from the Greek word euangelion, meaning "the good news" or the "gospel." Thus, the evangelical faith focuses on the "good news" of salvation brought to sinners by Jesus Christ.

Evangelicals are a vibrant and diverse group, including believers found in many churches, denominations and nations. Our community brings together Reformed, Holiness, Anabaptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic and other traditions.

Historian David Bebbington also provides a helpful summary of evangelical distinctives, identifying four primary characteristics of evangelicalism:

Conversionism: the belief that lives need to be transformed through a "born-again" experience and a life long process of following Jesus

Activism: the expression and demonstration of the gospel in missionary and social reform efforts

Biblicism: a high regard for and obedience to the Bible as the ultimate authority

Crucicentrism: a stress on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as making possible the redemption of humanity

These distinctives and theological convictions define us — not political, social or cultural trends. In fact, many evangelicals rarely use the term "evangelical" to describe themselves, focusing simply on the core convictions of God, the Bible, faith, Jesus, salvation, evangelism and discipleship.


The NAE/LifeWay Research method includes four statements to which respondents must strongly agree to be categorized as evangelical:

The Bible is the highest authority for what I believe.
It is very important for me personally to encourage non-Christians to trust Jesus Christ as their Savior.
Jesus Christ's death on the cross is the only sacrifice that could remove the penalty of my sin.
Only those who trust in Jesus Christ alone as their Savior receive God's free gift of eternal salvation."


Adding Gary's quote, "At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by Jesus at a later time...salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ."

I've never called it that nor do I believe I've ever seen Gary label it as such, but based on the above I could see how someone might categorize TM as UR evangelical in nature.  I believe Gary just personally prefers "The Victorious Gospel of Grace". 

[rosered]

 

  Amen brothers   in Christ !     Love it  .
Consider the 70 years of Babylon captivity ......  that can be the expanse of  a human life   more or less .spiritually speaking .

All of this  given to us for our learning  , teaching and a  great help .
  Take Daniel 9   and Jeremiah's book  70 years of Babylonian captivity , of letting GODS people go.....  I do believe Revealing of Christ  being Revelations explains  how Gods Spirit of Truth and Word of Truth   deliver us from the kings of the earth  that has been     mixing with the great whore of the earth the  false church since    Gen 11   .
  This is Gods judgement in the earth to destroy those whom destroy   His people   His resting place  good  earth Rev 11 ..

God shall deliver  from death and Babylon and make a pure and holy  nation  to serve Him only from all the earth ?

Habakkuk   1   22
11"Then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on.

But they will be held guilty, They whose strength is their god."

12Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die. You,

O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.[Babylon ]   as hard task masters  .

13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor.

Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously?

Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they?...

[Seth]

In my opinion it's not about getting to heaven as much as being saved from ourselves and the grip sin has on all of us. And being saved is not a reward for believing but the natural outcome of believing the truth instead of lies. "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free". So keep on wrestling with these things in your mind and eventually a light will come on and you'll know what is the truth. That's how it was with me a little at a time and faith grows.

:thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Amen, Jabcat.. and Bushy.. and Rosered..

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Very good thread/posts..

[chester-blowfold]

Some interesting posts but which Bible?

[eaglesway]

I think we are saved into fellowship with the Father and the Son. To know them is the "joy of our salvation". The details are debatable but knowing Him is the beauty of it all. Beyond loving  God and loving those with whom we find ourselves surrouded by in this life, everything else is secondary.

[marie glen]

I think we are saved into fellowship with the Father and the Son. To know them is the "joy of our salvation". The details are debatable but knowing Him is the beauty of it all. Beyond loving  God and loving those with whom we find ourselves surrouded by in this life, everything else is secondary.

Amen, amen!! "Life is good!" (per God's blueprint and outcome that is.. not so good, at the moment, if you're under the thumb of Isis or something.)

[Lazarus Short]

Some interesting posts but which Bible?

Good question!

If you can read the Bible in the original languages, you've nailed it.  If, like most of us, you are obliged to read in English, then you must settle for a translation, in which most of the original words have been replaced with English words.  Therein lies the problem.  In just the jump from Hebrew to Greek (Septuagint), the Hebrew word "sheol" was replaced with its closest Greek equivalent "hades," but that brought in a lot of problems, and was the first step toward Hell theology, IMO.

So what Bible to read?  First of all, avoid paraphrases.  I know they are popular and easy to read, but they will not deliver the Whole Counsel of God.  Avoid versions which add and/or take out portions of Scripture.  This would eliminate from consideration all the modern versions whose NT's follow Westcott & Hort.  What comes to mind here are the NIV, the NASB and suchlike.  Versions sponsored by a denomination should also be avoided, like the New World or the SDA version (forget the name).

This is what I use:

Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible - I'm just starting to read it, but it looks promising, and is a non-Hell version.

The Holy Bible in Modern English - aka, the Ferrar Fenton Version.  I love his OT, but his NT follows Westcott & Hort, though Fenton leaves all the parts in that other modern versions leave out, like the last 12 verses of Mark.

The KJV.  I know its ins & outs, its theo-illogical biases, its failures at translation.  Given that, I'm like the pool player who practiced on a warped table so long, that no one could beat him on it.

I haven't got one yet, but the Concordant Literal Translation (if I got the title right) may be very good.

Maybe someone else in the Tent can make better suggestions...

[eaglesway]

I use Bible Gateway online. Has all the Bibles and I can check any verse with a cross section of the Geek interlinear and several dictionaries and lexicons in seconds.

I prefer the NAS for general reading.

[Dandelion]

To me, to be evangelical, is to go out among the people, and share God's Word, in a conscious/deliberate manner.

It is also, to share it not only in words, but in our actions, our very lives, and with joy and love.

So, to me, this is an evangelical website, in its nature.

Of course, led by Gary and our wonderful moderators, but it also depends on each one of us, to carry that mission, in our hearts, as we converse with each other, and with the guests who come to see what
this website is all about. I believe it is an honor and a privelege to be able to be a part of this ministry.

That is how I see it.

I do tend to be a wee bit dramatic, though. Okay, maybe more than a wee bit.     

:drama:

D.

[darryl]

'Mitchells New Testament Translation' is excellent and I heartily recommend it.

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/

[CST]

Some interesting posts but which Bible?

Good question!

If you can read the Bible in the original languages, you've nailed it.  If, like most of us, you are obliged to read in English, then you must settle for a translation, in which most of the original words have been replaced with English words.  Therein lies the problem.  In just the jump from Hebrew to Greek (Septuagint), the Hebrew word "sheol" was replaced with its closest Greek equivalent "hades," but that brought in a lot of problems, and was the first step toward Hell theology, IMO.

So what Bible to read?  First of all, avoid paraphrases.  I know they are popular and easy to read, but they will not deliver the Whole Counsel of God.  Avoid versions which add and/or take out portions of Scripture.  This would eliminate from consideration all the modern versions whose NT's follow Westcott & Hort.  What comes to mind here are the NIV, the NASB and suchlike.  Versions sponsored by a denomination should also be avoided, like the New World or the SDA version (forget the name).

This is what I use:

Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible - I'm just starting to read it, but it looks promising, and is a non-Hell version.

The Holy Bible in Modern English - aka, the Ferrar Fenton Version.  I love his OT, but his NT follows Westcott & Hort, though Fenton leaves all the parts in that other modern versions leave out, like the last 12 verses of Mark.

The KJV.  I know its ins & outs, its theo-illogical biases, its failures at translation.  Given that, I'm like the pool player who practiced on a warped table so long, that no one could beat him on it.

I haven't got one yet, but the Concordant Literal Translation (if I got the title right) may be very good.

Maybe someone else in the Tent can make better suggestions...

There's actually a bigger problem to consider here...  [MOD EDIT

From http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/msg84791/#msg84791     "..our focus is WITHIN THE SCRIPTURES.  Gary Amirault has noted that there needs to be a respect for scripture in the discussion forum.  Not any other members' point of view crammed down others' throats, but that the default setting is a respect for scripture.  Accurately translated (as much as is currently possible), and the Spirit within the letters having been revealed to us, they are reliable.

Outright texual criticism is not an allowed topic or matter of discussion on the TM discussion forum.  It is seen as a divisive tool within the body, and not helpful to others' growth in the faith of Jesus Christ.  Also, repeated subtle, veiled references within posts that the scriptures are untrue, unnecessary [to whom they're available] or to be discounted in matters of belief and practice, are not only discouraged, but will be moderated based upon moderators' discretion.  Continually ignoring these policies, or public criticism of moderators' decisions, will be subject to a ban from the forum.  We will strive to be fair, respectful, and to have anything we do done with the love of Christ, but please see sentence #1 above.

There are plenty of other places in the world today that are accepting to the deceit that the scriptures are either not reliable, not necessary, or that don't understand (or care) that the Father and Son, the Spirit, and the written scriptures work in tandem - that they don't cancel each other out, nor one make the other unnecessary.  TM is not one of those places.  If anyone has any honest, searching questions about the validity of the scriptures (not just a repeated effort to cast doubt or trash them) any moderator will discuss that by PM and try to help you, and an honest, loving effort will be made to try to help you grow in the faith."]