If Aionios is not "eternal" --What then is "age-during" life?!?

[Msandino]

So, we say with confidence that "eternal punishment" can be accurately translated as "age-during correction/chastisement". Or something with that essence.

This brings up an extraordinary question!

According to my concordance, the primary use of the word eternal in the NT does not refer to punishment, but rather, "eternal life" or "everlasting life".

Isn't this what we always believed when we first heard the gospel! That whosoever...eternal life.

What then, for Christ's sake, is the meaning of "age-long" life? Or "Life pertaining to the ages"?

This is baffling to me. My brain short-circuits.  And just as serious matter as the understanding of "Eternal punishment" as "age-during correction". Perhaps more significant!

Couldn't this question have been one of the most compelling reasons to (erroneously) translate aionios as eternal?

What have we gotten into? What have we actually received through faith in Christ? Doesn't faith in Christ enable us to survive death? Could someone help me out here?

And if there are other posts relating to this - Could you direct me? Still new here.

Martha
Universal reconciliationist
as of 5/16/2016

[rodgertutt]

Is this a help Msandino?

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God's wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html 

[Msandino]

That's great -- and makes good sense. It's true, then that the original mistranslation in part occurred as a direct result of the inability to grasp the significance of Age-During Life.

If I was peddling priducts door to door, I think I could get a lot more takers for Eternal Life than Age-During Life.

[rodgertutt]

THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN

"Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to 'do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church', appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.

I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan's cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man's destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large."

EDITOR'S ADDITION
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

BERT BAUMAN continues, "The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God's vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God's judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.

Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God's judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, 'for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them' (Luke 9:56)."

[greg]

So, we say with confidence that "eternal punishment" can be accurately translated as "age-during correction/chastisement". Or something with that essence.

This brings up an extraordinary question!

According to my concordance, the primary use of the word eternal in the NT does not refer to punishment, but rather, "eternal life" or "everlasting life".

Isn't this what we always believed when we first heard the gospel! That whosoever...eternal life.

What then, for Christ's sake, is the meaning of "age-long" life? Or "Life pertaining to the ages"?

This is baffling to me. My brain short-circuits.  And just as serious matter as the understanding of "Eternal punishment" as "age-during correction". Perhaps more significant!

Couldn't this question have been one of the most compelling reasons to (erroneously) translate aionios as eternal?

What have we gotten into? What have we actually received through faith in Christ? Doesn't faith in Christ enable us to survive death? Could someone help me out here?

And if there are other posts relating to this - Could you direct me? Still new here.

Martha
Universal reconciliationist
as of 5/16/2016

The answer to your question is Mark 10:30.   That verse has a famous promise, that disciples who give up good things in this world for the messiah's sake will receive 100-times more in the world to come.  This promise helps show the character of the Father, as One who favors justice and measurement.

Literal Mark 10:30, "There is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters... because of me and my gospel and not will receive one hundred times the houses and brothers and sisters... ubEalma ("and in the world/age") to come life dEalm ("that is to a world/age").

Notice first that the text says 100-times more in the world to come, not infinitely more.

But secondly (and more importantly to language scholars), Mark 10:30 is a serious reality check to preachers of infinity, because it defines the next world/age as a finite world/age like the present one. The text says so literally if you know how to read Greek or Aramaic.  As shown below, the Greek & Aramaic are in total harmony here on the grammar.

The key here is that the literal grammar is specifically saying that the world/age to come is a finite world/age, because we read the definite article Ealma ("the world/age") in the very same expression to expressly define the indefinite Ealm ("a world/age").  If you don't study language, this fact may not sound important, but I assure you, it is enormously important.  Aramaic and Greek translators who use non-literal definitions are forced to awkwardly ignore this grammar in Mark 10:30 to fit their cherry-picked translations. 

Indeed, in reading the gospel cover-to-cover literally (in the ancient original languages), I've never found any promises of unconditional everlasting life.  Rather, I can only find those statements in ancient secular sources (ie., from the Pharisees and Greek mystics who thought everything was eternal).

In reading the bible literally, I see promises about life are specifically in reference to a world/age to come, such as John 10:28, which reads uana yhb ana lhun Khya dlEalm ula nabdun lEalm ("And I give, I am to them life that is to a world/age, and they will not perish to a world/age")."

This language is a very specific promise about a world/age to come.  If the messiah was going to promise that someone will never perish ever, then the text should instead say la nabdun mThum ("they will not perish ever"), or something similar to that.

Here is another example that proves this point.  John 11:25, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he should die he will live.  And whoever lives and believes in me to a world/age will not die."

Once again we see the promise of life is very specifically in reference to the world/age to come.  The indefinite form of the word is used Ealm ("a world/age") rather than the definite form Ealma ("this world/age").

Who would presume they deserve everlasting life for infinite time simply because they passed one test with one life on one planet?   Answer: conventional religion.

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

Only the Father continues perpetually, and those who live in Him (namely, the Son). 

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/mark-1030-reality-check-for-preachers-of-man's-infinity-soul/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7o6UD4z4Xc

[jabcat]

Literally, do you believe in the eternal annihilation of the wicked/unsaved greg?  Thanks.

[greg]

Ecclesiastes 12:7, "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to אלהימ who gave it."

Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."

Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."

Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every doer of wickedness shall be chaff.  And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."

Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out."

Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: and awe of him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

Ezekiel 28:16-19, "In the abundance of your merchandise they filled the middle of you with violence and you have sinned. And I will cast you as profane from the mountain of Elohim, and destroy you, you covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.  Was lifted up your heart because of your beauty.  You have corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness.  Upon the ground I will cast you.  Before kings I will lay you, that they may look in you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you have defiled your sanctuaries.  And I will bring forth a fire from the midst.  It shall devour you. And I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of any who see.  All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at the terror you shall be.  And you are not age-during."

[jabcat]

 Good scriptures, especially so within their context and rightly divided.  So what's the answer to what YOU believe?  Eternal annihilation/literal destruction, or something else?  I'm asking you to be very specific and clear please.  A concise, few-word summary.  Thanks.

[jabcat]

If you're going to make a point, especially one that contradicts the purpose of this site, we want you to make it clearly and concisely, making it obvious to readers where you stand and where you're coming from.  Otherwise, it can be confusing and/or some of it seen as just so much verbiage.  And if it's not contradictory, then that needs to be clear too.  Folks need to be able to discern.

[greg]

These are my words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7o6UD4z4Xc

I would venture that every flesh body is literally destroyed, and some souls are literally destroyed, and that spirit literally returns to אלהימ who gives it. 

I don't claim to have the perspective/capacity to describe the physics/logistics of what this looks like in the universe: when spirit returns to אלהימ. 

Indeed, Ecclesiastes 3:21, "Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?"

I think there is a lot of humility in Ecclesiastes that is useful to students of the bible pondering these matters about life after death. 

Even Rev 21:4 does not technically promise 'eternal life' -- the text refers to the new earth when it says 'death will not be' in that one particular world/age.  Indeed, one of the key limiting words used in this verse mkyl ("now" or "therefore") is used throughout the gospel in a limiting sense to some measurable amount of time or a measurable conclusion in a current world/age.  See e.g., Matthew 26:45 (referring to one night's sleep), Mark 11:14 (referring to the present world in comparison to a world to come), Mark 14:41 (same as Matthew 26:45), John 14:30 (messiah says he won't speak again at that time rather than ever again); John 17:11 (messiah says he won't be in the world again at that time rather than ever again).    Even the root of the word is mn kul ("from measurement").

The word mkyl is a combination of the roots mn ("from") and kl ("any/all"), so it is naturally dependent on context for meaning (i.e., from who/what/where/when; all/any of who/what/where/when). Here the context is set in terms of new Jerusalem in the new age/world; so that is the specific 'Where' and 'When' that sets the context for how "death will not be thereforward," in new Jerusalem in the new age/world. This verse does not say that the new Jerusalem in the new world/age continues for perpetual time or exists outside of time. To claim perpetual time or eternal time from this verse would be an assumption outside the literal text.

[rodgertutt]

Another point of view.

DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ARE NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larsen
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story...that's why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.

We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.

To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.

If I said to my kids, "Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie," I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet "hell mindset" Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas.

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm

[Seth]

So, we say with confidence that "eternal punishment" can be accurately translated as "age-during correction/chastisement". Or something with that essence.

This brings up an extraordinary question!

According to my concordance, the primary use of the word eternal in the NT does not refer to punishment, but rather, "eternal life" or "everlasting life".

Isn't this what we always believed when we first heard the gospel! That whosoever...eternal life.

What then, for Christ's sake, is the meaning of "age-long" life? Or "Life pertaining to the ages"?

This is baffling to me. My brain short-circuits.  And just as serious matter as the understanding of "Eternal punishment" as "age-during correction". Perhaps more significant!

Couldn't this question have been one of the most compelling reasons to (erroneously) translate aionios as eternal?

What have we gotten into? What have we actually received through faith in Christ? Doesn't faith in Christ enable us to survive death? Could someone help me out here?

And if there are other posts relating to this - Could you direct me? Still new here.

Martha
Universal reconciliationist
as of 5/16/2016

I believe that what we call "eternal life" today, is referred to in the NT as "immortality" (this mortal must put on immortality). Aionios life, I believe is a reference to the gift of the Spirit (Christ within - "I am the life") which was given as a foretaste of future glory.

I have more here if interested: http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.html

[eaglesway]

greg, it appears to me that you negate the entire NT record as well as much of the OT record as a contectual "fabric" based on a the "jots and tittles" of your opinions on Hebrew language.

You present them as immutable fact. Some of what you present I agree with. Much I don't.

As long as you present what you think in the way of an opinion to the contrary regarding universal reconciliation, we at leaqst have the option of identifying where you come from and reacting accordingly. With discussion, if you allow it, or with moderation, if you present as uncontradictable, or if you present your opinions as things one must "beware" if they disagree.

Having had this go round with you in the past, I can say that working your way subtly and slowly around to teaching annihilation is not going to work.... and this is why.

This site is firmly established in the doctrine of the salvation of all, the reconciliation of all and the subjection of all adversaries to become gathered into one in Christ- so that God may become "all in all"- His plan and intention from before the foundation of the world.

We are not here to debate the issue, but we will discuss it with those who are not convinced but are willing to discuss the scriptures.

As I see it you are unwilling to discuss the scriptures. Your entire presentation depends on your opinions about certain words and you seem top have litte respect for topical context. Anyway, we are not providing space for interminable intricacies presented as immutable facts from an expert :o)

We are not apologizing. We are declaring and answering queries with the scriptures as we see them. That is what Tentmaker is for- altho it seems difficult to keep it in that field at times, we persevere and are confident in our stand.

[anti_nietzsche]

I translate aionious in "aionious life" and "aionious kolasis" more as "enduring". If I am caught stealing and must go to jail for half a year I get an aionious sentence in that I won't get out of jail for all the duration of the sentence.The sentence won't be lifted until it is finished. It is the same with aionious kolasis or aionious fire. The kolasis lasts enduringly for as long as God sees fit, and same for the fire, but according to God's sovereign ability to give us the right kolasis and an effective fire, at some point the punishment is completed and its purpose got fulfilled. And the outcome is a cleansed human who can then really partake in the divine life again. 

The "enduring life" in "aionious life" is also an enduring outcome of our death and having been judged by God and dwelling with Him now. It is the same as with the punishment, the life will not stop and endures for as long as it is supposed to be. But God never limits our lifespan after death. That's nowhere to be found in the entire bible. I'm of the view that everyone always got aionious life since the dawn of times, and that this includes animals and plant souls and beings. The Earth and this universe provide a special experience. Death is not just death as an end of life but instead a transformer and a door to another life. And this other life is then eternal in the true sense of the word "eternal". But "aionious" life firstly means to know God and His son Jesus Christ. Everyone gets eternal life, that was always a given, but not everyone has "aionious" and "enduring" life.

The natural human may believe in a God but his faith and devotional life is not constant and consequent. But if he finds Jesus he is brought into the "aionious" life where God doesn't simply fade from you and where faith is rewarding with being given a righteous standing with God and man.

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:

I agree  only the  HOLY SPIRIT  IS ETERNAL

I am under the impression  that all   , not some  or a few but all   eventually will worship the FATHER IN SPIRIT  AND TRUTH   ,as  HE seeks them  now and There are many  witnesses  already in heaven and many with the same  witness  found in them  on the earth ,  pouring out the CHRIST SPIRIT   on all flesh 
Have both the FATHER AND THE SON'S  WORD  OF TRUTH  BY THE    SPIRIT OF TRUTH    growing as LOVE , LIGHT AND LIFE   in them   as the Spirit of prophecy long ago is being fulfilled   daily  ...
  On  earth and it is in heaven  prayers answered ...  first BY JESUS  CHRIST and those with the same   breath  , prayer 
Our Father whom is in heaven HOLY Is YOUR NAME YOUR KINGDOM COME   and will be done on earth as it is in heaven    ...   :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

there is no counting of 'time' in immortality..so when resurrected in the spirit/raised up in the incorruption when you meet death[of

flesh/last enemy] there is no 'age"  The ages pertain to the time of men sown in the earth in their generations...the fruit we bear

or thorns/weeds in this life.as we sow we reap in this life. Now the man with one talent that hid it in the earth[even the wicked one]

accused God of reaping what He did not sow and being a harsh man like himself=should even punish and destroy mankind eternally

after he dies[punishment for sin in flesh= death..then resurrection and God's judgement which = free gift of eternal life/immortality

in Christ's image..sown in corruption raised in incorruption.  But God sowed all mankind in the earth..and this accusation against

  God comes from the spirit of the accusor/satan..and he will even lose what he thinks he has..even mankind that he possess's and

brings forth the corrupt image in..thinking to condemn man to eternal death.

  you will find he has planted that very talent in christendom.

[sheila]

every 'hidden' thing will be revealed.

[ps]

In reading the bible literally, I see promises about life are specifically in reference to a world/age to come, such as John 10:28, which reads uana yhb ana lhun Khya dlEalm ula nabdun lEalm ("And I give, I am to them life that is to a world/age, and they will not perish to a world/age")."

Not 'life' directly, but it appears that Jesus kingdom (presumably the same to be handed over to the Father, 1 Cor 15:24) is spoken of as being ageS (plural) without end in Luke 1:33.

His reign shall be for the ages, and that reign/kingdom will be without end, i.e. will reign over kingdom for ageS withOUT end.

And, it appears that to enter/receive/inherit life, and to enter/receive/inherit the kingdom, are generally the same notion.
(kingdom, matt 5:20, 7:21, 18:3, 19:23-24, 23:13, Mar 9:47, 10:15, 10:23-25, Luk 18:25, John 3:5
life, Matt 18:8-9, 19:29, Mar 9:43,45,  10:17,30, Luk 10:25, 18:18, Jas 1:12)

Comments, thoughts on any of that?

Here is another example that proves this point.  John 11:25, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, even if he should die he will live.  And whoever lives and believes in me to a world/age will not die."

Isn't that actually v25 and v26, which seems as though it might be two slightly separate thoughts.

First is that those who die (in this age) will be resurrected.
Second (v26), is that those who are alive, living and believing until that age/point of resurrection (1 Cor 15:51 - a mystery, not all sleep) having not yet died, will never die.

[sheila]

in the consummation..all men will go up to the Holy spiritual city[Mt Zion/in the clouds] where He teaches us His ways[perfects the

  just spirits of man] where all supp on the fatted calf and the shroud removed[understanding given]

   then each will go to His inheritance/eternal estate..in the new heavens/new earth no more tears/death/mourning.

   Look to me and be saved all ye 'ends' of the earth=all the successive generations of man[wheat] He has sown in this world being

harvested into the storehouse of heaven. The consummation is when all/the full number of Zion's sons have been sown and reaped

and have bore much fruit unto heaven[because of CHRIST THE HOLY SEED] all mankind is Jesus Christ inheritance..and He gives

them eternal life.

   there has been a continual sowing and reaping of man in the field of this earth by God........and in the consummation of this world

she comes walking up out of the wilderness[of this world] leaning on her Beloved[not leaning on her own understanding] like the sun

moon and stars  in procession.   and just as Israel passed-over from bondage and slavery from Pharoah..so,too shall mankind

pass-over by the blood of the Lamb into the real promised land..the new heavens/new earth..and the whole creation groans

for this revealing/unveiling......God with Us.

[eaglesway]

I personally believe the solution to the connundrum you present is explained in the Hebrew word "olam". It is the primary word that was used in the OT to communicated  periods of time that were not of specific duration. It is also a word that was frequently used to communicate mystery, otherness and that which is "beyond the veil".

When the Septuagint was translated from Hebrew it was done by Greek Jews. Aion or its adjective form aionion were the words chosen to translate olam. In the OT olam occurred over 450 times in the original hebrew and was used in reference to every thing from the far distant past(Gen 4:6) to the far distant future (Gen 49:26) to the "world" Isaih 64:4, to the uncertain duration of a life time (Deut 16:3), to the name(a descriptive indicator of His divine nature) of God(YHWH OLAM-Gen 21:33; Deut 23:3)

It is this reason why you will see aion occasionally translated "world". Aion never means world in its original usage, but its translation to "world" by English translators is an acknowledgement of "olam" aion is a translation transition from "olam".

To this day, and back through over a thousand years in the writings of the rabbi's, "olam ha-ba" speaks of "the world to come". "Olam ha-ze" means "this present evil world", and "tikkun olam" means "repairing the world", a fundamental concept in a jewish view of how one is counted worthy to enter "olam ha ba", which is akin to a Christian concept of eternal life

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0015_0_15058.html  http://jewishroots.net/library/anti_missionary_objections/how_long_is_forever.html-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olam

so.....

Olam, as it refers to the life of the world to come is "other", "beyond the veil", "not clearly seen", even as God is all those things, and so are the things in the far distant past, as well as the things in the ages to come..

In my opinion the insistence that the root thought of "aion" is a "period of time with a beginning and an end is in my opinion, incorrect. There will be an age with no end, a world without end-  after the consummation when the last adversary is subjected into the "all in all" of God. This to me is obvious from the topical context of many staements of scripture to the extent it speaks for itself more loudly that disputations over the exact meaning of "aion".

We will live forever. God's life endures forever. Of all that God has created nothing will be lost because "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things". "The whole creation will be set free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God".... thought the outworking of the ages, a "dispensation(economoi) suitable to the fulness(pleroma) of times(kairos)" in which all things in heaven and in earth will be "gathered into one in Christ" (Eph 1:10 kjv).

Again, imo, in these verses and many others context speaks louder than jots and tittles of transliteration and translation- eternal is not always incorrect, if it is inclusive of the otherness of the world to come and not just a reference to unending time.

If we look at "eternal" as another word for "olam"- behold, it fits- because it refers to that which is, as Paul spoke, "seen through a glass darkly", but certainly existent...certainly real- not because we know every facet of it or have every detail about it, but because God has assured us it is so ithroughout the larger context of His word.

I find this explanation eliminates the problems of finding a way to dispute the many instances wre olam or aionion, in the context, seem to indicate an "olam" that includes forever as a part-not a full definition, but a part- of the subject that is no completely dseen because it is olam.

[darryl]

 look, if God wanted to state that the rising smoke was definitely 'eternal' (in Rev) or that the 'chastizement ' was 'eternal' in Mt 25, He would have used a Greek word that definitely and unambiguously means 'eternal'...NOT a word like 'aionas'  or 'aionios' that does not, in and of itself,  mean 'eternal'...surely God, the creator of the universe who knows all things, surely He  knows the Greek language and is conversant with it !.The KJV 'hellators' are mostly Biblical literalists and they believe every word is inspired so they should take the Bible word 'aionios' literally and KNOW that it does not mean 'eternal' in and of itself and further KNOW that in such an important matter as our eternal destiny God, who inspired the Bible, would have chosen a word like 'aidios' that DOES in and of itself mean 'eternal'.I mean it's all common- sense...isn't it ?

[eaglesway]

I have read in several places that aidos means eternal and aion means a period of time with a beginning and an end. We have to be careful not to believe our own mythology wthout studying it. This thing about aidos is just UR propaganda(imo). Sorry if I offend.


aidos does not mean eternal, in the sense of "everlasting". In Jude we see that the angels who left their proper domain are bound in "aidios chains" reserved for the judgment of the great day(know ye not ye shall judge angels?).

So, their chains are not forever- they are , possibly, perhaps, "eternal" if one reads that word as "other worldly" or as "of the world to come"- they are definitely not "everlasting" or "forever" as they are only in force until judgment is rendered.

Aidos only occurs two times in scripture. Jude verse 6 and Romans 1:20, where, interestingly enough, it refers to Gods "aidios power".

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal(aidios) power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This to me does not speak of "everlasting" power- but it could refer to "eternal power", because His power is not of this world or limited to this world, it is aidios, olam and aionion.

I think aidios and aionion and olam all mean exactly the same thing- in the mind of the speakers(the Holy Spirit, the apostles and prophets).

Aionion is not "forever" or "everlasting", but (again- in my opinion only of course) eternal is not nessarily erroneous if it is viewed in the sense of "olam"- of the world/age to come as opposed to simply "forever" or "everlasting".

I personally think eternal is the wrong place to draw the battle lines. IMO not everything that is eternal lasts forever. The eternal realm, to me, is the realm of God, beyond the veil, and cannot be encompassed in the mind of man.

Forever is differnet to me, again, me personally- as I read it, forever and everlasting are clearly eroneous translations- but aidos does not translate to forever or everlasting either, it seems to mean the same thing, in Greek as "aionion".

[darryl]

well, I'm trying to use my common sense and I guess the point i'm trying to make  is that God, who inspired the Bible, surely, in order to avoid confusion, would have used a Greek word, any Greek word, that definitely and unambiguously means 'eternal' or 'never ending' when matters of our destiny in the next existence are mention in the NT, such as in Mt25:46...whether that particular Greek word for 'eternal' or 'unending'  is 'adios' or whatever (I don't  know koine Greek so I don't know all the possible words that mean 'eternal' or 'never ending' in that language) ..

why would the Holy Spirit, who inspired the Bible,  choose to use such a word like  'aionios' ? which has a range of meanings according to the context, seeing as it's used to convey the meaning of 'olam' ?...God could have settled the entire thing by inspiring  a Greek word that unarguably means 'never ever ending' or 'everlasting' in passages such as Mt25:46...the fact He did not is a good evidence that 'hell' is not 'eternal' or 'never ending'...that's the point I'm trying to make..I was not trying to make a point about 'aidios' per say...I'm trying to make a general point about the usage of certain words in the Bible, not about the Greek word 'aidios'.

[darryl]

A SNIPPET FROM THE GREEK WORD AION – AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING – ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION – JOHN WESLEY HANSON

"The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior's day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.

Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation."

[eaglesway]

Yes, I hav read that. I am not trying to debunk it, it is a theory......but lets look at the scripture. Aidios is only used twice.

Never by Jesus.

Once of punishment-Jude verse 6- or at least restraint for the purpose of judgment which is at least a form of kolassis, and clearly- most definitely Not forever/everlasting.

Once by Paul, speaking of the power of God. Ro 1:20

I feel like, with all due respect to John Wesley Hanson.... those two occurrences do not present enough precedent to justify his statement as more than a theory, because Jesus never used the word at all- and Jesus (imo) probably spoke Hebrew or Aramaic , and even if He didnt, He was a Hebrew and His thoughts came out of the law and prophets- not the philosophy of Greeks.

Now, to make a point.

What does a serious ET or ED student of the word who hears or reads this think- when they go to the word and find only these two occurences and none by Jesus, and one CLEARLY not meaning everlasting(Jude 6)? Wont they think we are not objective? Doesnt that appear as a device that skirts the real facts?

I dont wish to be argumentative but I wonder if we, as UR believers and propnents, can afford to be that careless? Are we willing to be corrected? Are we willing to correct ourselves? Are we becoming another deaf religion, with our own sacred cows and little boxes?

:o)

That said, I will say no more about it and I hope I havent offended anyone