Punishment to fit the crime

[Mark Scott]

I am really puzzled with what happens to everyone when they die?  If your a believer, does God still judge you, (after all no-one is righteous not even one) but it doesn't make sense because Pastor says when you repent God forgets your sins as far as the East is from the West which when translated correctly means he forgets he forgets!!!  How can we remember anyway, once we die we have no memory we are dead, I don't understand?

As for unbelievers, take everyone's favourite when thinking of someone evil like Hitler how does he eventually make it to heaven compared to say someone at work who tries and does all the good things in life even working for charities and helping homeless victims.  If you were Hitlers dad for example and had to authorise punishment for his crimes it would obviously be very severe compared to the guy at your workplace!  How will God deal with the likes of Hitler, the Satan Worshiper, the atheist, the terrorist, the child abuser and even the good guy on the street who doesn't believe etc in terms of the level of punishment and how and what transforms people back to what God intended them to be?  Really confused!!!   :dontknow:

[Lazarus Short]

From I Corinthians 3, NIV

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I'm leaning these days, to thinking just about everyone will suffer some loss, even those in the first resurrection - unless this only applies to those going into the Lake of Fire.  Maybe someone here can enlighten further... :dunno2:

[GodIsLove]

Punishment to fit the crime falls into an eye for an eye mentality.

Jesus said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

The more I ask God to fill me with His spirit and lead me, the more love I feel from God and the more love I feel from God to all of humanity. And the more love I feel emanating from my own heart.

God will burn away the impurities and the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" will be our own regret, knowing how loving God is and how horrible we were in our lifetimes and how even though we don't deserve it, He loves us unconditionally and more than we could ever comprehend in this lifetime.

Anyone who says that regret isn't "harsh" enough 1) has never tasted true regret that can eat you alive 2) still has a mind that is focused on retribution and vindication, instead of being focused on forgiveness and mercy.

[eaglesway]

Jesus put it pretty simply, I think.

"That servant who knows his master's will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded" Luke 12

Not to be taken literally, but setting a principle that God will judge everyone by the light they received.

"Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny" Matthew 5

Not to be taken literally but setting forth a principle that the sooner you agree with God concerning your faults and sins the sooner you will escape corruption and correction.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Romans 1

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. John 1

I believe everyone who comes into the world as some light in them. Everyone has some glimmer of the testimony of God in them. Everyone decides whether to follow that glimmer or to stamp it out in themselves.

The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Acts 17

I believe in the wrath of God and in the judgment of God. I believe He judges in this realm and also in the world to come. Those who hav committed horrendous crimes and did not repent in this life will be, imo, in need of stronger correction before the throne of God, "they will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb"(Rev 14)

But I also believe that all of God's judgments are intended to reclaim the one corrected. To bring them to repentence, brokenness and a change of heart. To end in mercy and reconciliation to the glory of God.

So as we read in Rev that the beast and the false prophet will receive a specific punishment, and as we read in Jude that certain angels who left their domain received a specific judgment, I do believe that hardened sinners and predators will endure intense correction in the presence of God to open them up and bring them to their knees.

After all, that is what the scripture says isnt it?

God is not a respecter of persons. Everyone will get what they deserve whether reward or punishment, only God knws.

Behold I am coming quickly"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. Rev 22:12

"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve." Jer 17:10

For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Romans 2

For all those who have trusted in Jesus, there will only be rejoicing, and the work of reconciling the rest of creation in the ages to come......

and no one knows for sure all of God's mercy and judgment but...

"He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the eternity in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end." Ecclesiastes 3:11

[marie glen]

From I Corinthians 3, NIV

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I'm leaning these days, to thinking just about everyone will suffer some loss, even those in the first resurrection - unless this only applies to those going into the Lake of Fire.  Maybe someone here can enlighten further... :dunno2:

Hi Laz.. I believe these verses are speaking of His return, so concerns believers.. What will we take with us really? past death? Or vivifying if an alive believer at His return and the 1st resurrection, which we know is of all believers through the ages..

"He comes with fire and His angels.." 1 Thess 1:7,8. Which is when, I believe is the separating of (live) sheep and goats.. the goats to Armageddon (Rev 12:17; 16:14-16) and the sheep 'in His barn' - "angels will gather His elect.. to meet Him at His coming".

God will burn away the impurities and the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" will be our own regret, knowing how loving God is and how horrible we were in our lifetimes and how even though we don't deserve it, He loves us unconditionally and more than we could ever comprehend in this lifetime.

Anyone who says that regret isn't "harsh" enough 1) has never tasted true regret that can eat you alive 2) still has a mind that is focused on retribution and vindication, instead of being focused on forgiveness and mercy.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana:

And Amen to Eaglesway's post! So very, very true! :iagree:

I am really puzzled with what happens to everyone when they die?  If your a believer, does God still judge you, (after all no-one is righteous not even one) but it doesn't make sense because Pastor says when you repent God forgets your sins as far as the East is from the West which when translated correctly means he forgets he forgets!!!  How can we remember anyway, once we die we have no memory we are dead, I don't understand?

As for unbelievers, take everyone's favourite when thinking of someone evil like Hitler how does he eventually make it to heaven compared to say someone at work who tries and does all the good things in life even working for charities and helping homeless victims.  If you were Hitlers dad for example and had to authorise punishment for his crimes it would obviously be very severe compared to the guy at your workplace!  How will God deal with the likes of Hitler, the Satan Worshiper, the atheist, the terrorist, the child abuser and even the good guy on the street who doesn't believe etc in terms of the level of punishment and how and what transforms people back to what God intended them to be?  Really confused!!!   :dontknow:

Hello, Mark Scott! and  :welcome:

The only thing I didn't find addressed/answered, was the implication of "immortal soul".. now we here at tentmaker are not all agreed on this, I don't think.. but does the Bible really say we have inherent immortality? Or does it say those past believers are asleep in Christ and will rise at His return at the 'last day'.. and all believers will then, at that time, "put on immortality"? - 1 Thess 4, and 1 Corinthians 15:52-?

Also it says "the former things won't come to mind" but I believe that to be former temptations, etc.. not that we will have no memory. I actually think our memories of this life and the horrors which are mankind's history, are very valuable and will part of what God uses to write His law (deeply) upon every heart and mind (psyche).

Like GodisLove and Eaglesway wrote, I too believe there will be different degrees (pun unintended?) of harshness of judgment.. for those who oppressed and tormented others.. more fiery remorse and burning shame..

Also, I do not believe such a one deserves to know there will be light at the end of the tunnel for them. Let them believe in an eternal hell of torment for themselves for just a bit.. 
   - :laughing7: that's just my own thought, not in any verses.. I believe if not for God's Great Plan of Salvation (built in "from the beginning") we all would perish (which is why all sin is said to be 'equal'.. equal in result, which is nonlife/death)...

But He is perfect, his works are perfect.. Perfect makes no mistakes, loses nothing, and surely(?) the 'end' result of all this (human history) can onLy be, the best one possible...!!?

"Our God is a consuming fire". Consuming all impurity and flaw, which ultimately, cannot exist..

[eaglesway]

From I Corinthians 3, NIV

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I'm leaning these days, to thinking just about everyone will suffer some loss, even those in the first resurrection - unless this only applies to those going into the Lake of Fire.  Maybe someone here can enlighten further... :dunno2:

I think the losses are sufferred in life for first resurrection saints, at the cross, and I dont believe any of them are perfect or sinless, other than by the grace of Jesus and through forgiveness. But Paul did say we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account of our deeds, and Jesus says, in His rebukes to the church in Thyratira, "I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts"..... so your observation may be correct. I personally think the first resurrection saints are overcomers, their faults open to their Father, confessed and under the blood, having endured to the end in the honesty and humility of abiding in Him- not sinless, but in submission and abiding in the Vine.

In Romans 2 Paul speaks about "the Day God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ" and in that portion he says that those without law will be judged without law, and those with the law will be judged by the law, and I think the same applies to the gospel. If you heard it you will be judged by it. If not, you will be judged by the secrets of your heart, because, as Paul says in Romans 1, all are without excuse.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

In Romas 1 and 2 Paul lays a detailed foundation(imo) for the judgement of God and its liberality and its severity. I think in this life we are building for the next and the losses come "in the fire", in His presence. As we draw closer to Him the fire burns hotter, all our secrets are exposed(to us in us). Our conscience reacts(Pasalm 51 "You would make me to know truth in my inward parts) and the fire cleanses.

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Exposure is for the purpose of cleansing. As I grow older things I did not see when I was younger appear to me as "every hidden thing is brought to light". Many of those things relate to attitudes and actions after I became a believer that I thought wer "gold, silver, and precious stone" but turned out, in the fire, to be revealed as wood hay and stubble.


Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

If we let that fire burn, perhaps we will see the first resurrection(thats how I see it). If we do not, then we will experience the fire that will bring the hidden things to light in the next life in an experience Jesus called "aionios pyr". I think Gehenna and the Lake fo fire both speak of this same process- in principle, if not in fact alternative metaphors for the same experience as 1 Cor 3 speaks of and Mt 25 speaks of...that thre righteous will enter aionios zoe and the unrighteous will enter aionion kolassis and aionios pyr.

I personally believe their will be many believers in the second resurrection, and that only "up to date"(thats how I see enduring to the end) believers, those who are awake and abiding in Christ on a daily basis, will go in the first resurrection- but I would not present that as a clear biblical doctrine- it is just what I get from reading the little bit the scriptures say about that.

[anti_nietzsche]

I think in order to deal with evil deeds we must remember how Jesus Christ dealt with them - when the worst evil was inflicted on him, he said, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. St Paul too gave an example of this attitude when he writes that where sin abounds, grace abounds much more. Now grace is something the enemy cannot destroy because it's from God and not from us. But our faith happens inside of us and precisely in that inside we can be confused and weak; but again St Paul writes that when we are weak, then we are strong, because at that point Jesus Christ is strong in us. We don't have to think that we need to be powerhouses and instead might profit from learning to live in weakness. And at the end that's also our destiny in life because we will simply become weak and old, and even then God will carry us.

Sometimes in my spiritual life I hated the weaknesses that came over me because then I could not boast anymore. This taught me that all I ever praised about myself was simply my youth and not God. But again St Paul writes that we can boast about our weakness because it makes us more like Jesus was on the cross (and maybe before ... I could certainly conceive of a Jesus who had weakness in his body and the book of Hebrews says about Jesus and sin that he was tempted like us as well, although as the sanctified son of God he was victorious about temptation ... which is another reason for him to be sympathetic towards us because we are even weaker then him.)

About terrorism, that is a truly awful thing but I think the blame for these acts lie more with satan than with any man. It's simply madness to blindly kill other men and yourself, and so it's for me of no use to think of moral responsibility here. To be sure, there is moral responsibility, but the terrorists who did these things were total madmen. It's like in the world war, after the war everyone sat down and asked, what happened here, why were we so mad? That is where our religion has to chime in and find satan being at work again and we have to expose that influence and then work at the human sin that accompanied the satanic seduction to the war spirit that normally humans do not want to follow. There are also other things to remember, the love of money that the bible calls the root of all evil, the materialism of our culture that doesn't care enough for spiritual things (not just religion, also art and philosophy and education in general), the violence that was in the world to begin with which bred other violence and the madness of extremistic religion too which Isaiah speaks about (the sea of Egypt), and which the book of Revelation speaks about as having killed our Savior as well.

Finally, while some sins are worse than others, in the end I know that I am sinning too, although sometimes I would be glad to say I only sin unconsciously I still am not such a perfectly loving man as Jesus was, and we are supposed to be Christlike. There is also the old saying, if we understand everything, we can only forgive everything. We can excuse every man really because the worst evils come from satan and we must build a humanity that can resist satan and that is able to love human enemies into conversion. Mercy triumphs over Judgment, which is God's way.

I hope I can make clear that Jesus is of utmost importance and that we must go to the tree of life that is the Cross and find abundant grace and mercy there. We have a Lord who endured much worse things than we usually endure, but he forgave his enemies and so we should be able to forgive other humans too. That does not cancel the need for our politicians to work on strategies on how to combat terror and the love of money, and to have a police that can protect the innocent from terroristic or similar evil harm.

Our world is beautiful with its clouds and trees and birds and flowers and oceans and even the cities and villages and houses. We must honor this world as God's world and then we can love it with the love of the Father. Turn away from the world of evil and embrace the world of good. Jesus Christ is glad about everyone who follows his ways of love, peace and understanding, which are in the ways of faith too.   

[marie glen]

  -- Amen, great post!

remember how Jesus Christ dealt with them - when the worst evil was inflicted on him, he said, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. St Paul too gave an example of this attitude when he writes that where sin abounds, grace abounds much more

..I never really put that together before.. but now I can see it..

Now grace is something the enemy cannot destroy because it's from God and not from us. But our faith happens inside of us

     :Chinscratch: .... :thumbsup:

Our world is beautiful with its clouds and trees and birds and flowers and oceans and even the cities and villages and houses. We must honor this world as God's world and then we can love it with the love of the Father. Turn away from the world of evil and embrace the world of good. Jesus Christ is glad about everyone who follows his ways of love, peace and understanding, which are in the ways of faith too.