Flat earth

[Lonely Summer]

I recently became friends with a Christian who endorses the flat earth theory. This is the first time I have encountered this. Is there any real scriptural basis for believing our planet is flat?

[Lazarus Short]

The Globe Earth model and the Flat Earth model both have their problems, but the Globe model has far fewer.  I have looked into the Flat Earth claims, and I see a lot of selective evidence and bad logic.

Now here's something to really blow your mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kL7qDeI05U

[rosered]

The Globe Earth model and the Flat Earth model both have their problems, but the Globe model has far fewer.  I have looked into the Flat Earth claims, and I see a lot of selective evidence and bad logic.

Now here's something to really blow your mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kL7qDeI05U

:banana: :thumbsup: AWESOME  !  THE WORD SPOKEN PSALMS 33

Let the godly sing for joy to the lord;
it is fitting for the pure to praise him.
2Praise the lord with melodies on the lyre;
make music for him on the ten-stringed harp.
3Sing a new song of praise to him;
play skillfully on the harp, and sing with joy.
4For the word of the lord holds true,
and we can trust everything he does.
5He loves whatever is just and good;
the unfailing love of the lord fills the earth.
6The lord merely spoke,
and the heavens were created.
He breathed the word,
and all the stars were born.
7He assigned the sea its boundaries
and locked the oceans in vast reservoirs.
8Let the whole world fear the lord,
and let everyone stand in awe of him.
9For when he spoke, the world began!
It appeared at his command.
10The lord frustrates the plans of the nations
and thwarts all their schemes.
11But the lord's plans stand firm forever;
his intentions can never be shaken.
12What joy for the nation whose God is the lord,
whose people he has chosen as his inheritance.
13The lord looks down from heaven
and sees the whole human race.
14From his throne he observes
all who live on the earth.
15He made their hearts,
so he understands everything they do.
16The best-equipped army cannot save a king,
nor is great strength enough to save a warrior.
17Don't count on your warhorse to give you victory—
for all its strength, it cannot save you.
18But the lord watches over those who fear him,
those who rely on his unfailing love.
19He rescues them from death
and keeps them alive in times of famine.
20We put our hope in the lord.
He is our help and our shield.
21In him our hearts rejoice,
for we trust in his holy name.
22Let your unfailing love surround us, lord,
for our hope is in you alone.

[DanielB]

I consider it possible the earth is flat but I haven't really researched the matter because I don't care about whether it is or not if you can believe that. :) People can pull off some pretty surprising conspiracies if they can convince the majority of people that such a conspiracy is impossible to pull off or simply to brush it off as ridiculous wacko conspiracy theory(influencing majority opinion is not as difficult as it sounds). The reason I find it unlikely is the apparent lack of motive. Maybe it could be people trying to destroy people's faith in christianity or even God but I think it more likely(or at least as likely) that there is a conspiracy to convince people that the Bible tells us that the Earth is flat so that people can not reconcile our probably spherical earth with the Bible. It is also possible that some if not many outrageous sounding conspiracies were made up to discredit people who were pointing out the real conspiracies. I have even wondered if some people might overexaggerate conspiracies or add it false and disprovable details to encourage skepticism.

I think becoming a believer in universal salvation has made me more open minded to "conspiracy theories" for better or worse because I know that supposed experts and even apparent consensus among supposed experts can turn turn into some Emperor's New Clothes bull-crap.

[bushy]

There is a simple formula to figure the distance where things should disappear over the horizon on a round earth, and the thing that first got my attention on this is that we can see things way farther than we should be able to. So I stopped calling everyone stupid that even considered it and started checking it out. As for a motive, it is the same one that got us evolution, to prove there is no creator and we are not special. A few years back everyone believed we were the center of the universe and then a few 'scientists' 'discovered' heliocentrism with the earth spinning 1000 mph while orbiting the sun and chasing it through space at 66,000 mph without us being able to detect any of this movement. There are excellent you tube videos about how and why we got the heliocentric theory and how the bible much more supports a stationary earth.

So there Laz, I think there are more problems for round earth than flat.  :laugh:

[Shev]

I am no scientist, but from my own experiences, I can't see how the earth can be anything but spherical. Here are a couple of things I have noticed:

1 - In flying, the terrain below is always as it is mapped out in Atlas's, whenever I glimpse it below, and the travel times are all consistent with the spherical globe. If the earth were flat, how could they make all flight times comparable with those of the globe? How could I fly 12 hours to Tokyo from the west coast of the US, but then also only be 10 hours from London, from here in Las Vegas? Sooner or later the ruse would collapse, owing to the massive amount of flights. Even if the earth were a flat circle, you could not make everything the correct distance away. Beijing would end up being four hours from Oslo, and we would all scratch our heads. The very overabundance of air travel is a huge witness to me.

2 - The tropics are the central belt of the earth, between the Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn. These have a type of terrain and climate uniquely 'tropical' with jungle, etc. More to the point, there is very little variation in when the sun sets in these places, whereas the further north or south you go, the more variation there is. I grew up in England, where it gets dark perhaps around 3pm in the winter, whereas after 10pm in summer, whereas here in Vegas, the variation is much less, and even less in places like Costa Rica and Antigua that I have been to. Again, this would be consistent with the spherical earth.

I am not sure how the flat earth idea even ties into UR, which is the purpose of these message boards, but I think conspiracies can be taken too far, as if carnal mankind is incapable of making real discoveries about the universe around him.

[eaglesway]

I have observed the planets and the moon through high powered telescopes with my own eyes. Perhaps the earth is flat but the moon and the stars and the sun and the planets are all round Yuk Yuk. I just dont get it. As Shev pointed out, this forum is focused on UR, so this thread will not be given much leeway- there are other places for such discussions, and this one is way below our threshhold.  :laugh:

[eaglesway]

I think the flat earth was invented by the same folks who invented etrnal torment in "hell". They wanted to send Galileo into eternal fire for the blasphemy of saying, "I have seen the heavenly bodies through my telescope, and I can prove the earth is round".

Devilscope, thats what is is. An instrument of eeeeviilll. I mean to me this is like the latest joke of Satan.... "I got them believing God created most people for eternal torment in a literal ocean of fire, LOLOL.... I even have some of them believing THE EARTH IS FLAT....HeHawwww. Can you believe it! They are so easy.

[Shev]

 :iagree: :laughing7:

[Lonely Summer]

There is a simple formula to figure the distance where things should disappear over the horizon on a round earth, and the thing that first got my attention on this is that we can see things way farther than we should be able to. So I stopped calling everyone stupid that even considered it and started checking it out. As for a motive, it is the same one that got us evolution, to prove there is no creator and we are not special. A few years back everyone believed we were the center of the universe and then a few 'scientists' 'discovered' heliocentrism with the earth spinning 1000 mph while orbiting the sun and chasing it through space at 66,000 mph without us being able to detect any of this movement. There are excellent you tube videos about how and why we got the heliocentric theory and how the bible much more supports a stationary earth.

So there Laz, I think there are more problems for round earth than flat.  :laugh:

Those are some of the things my friend is saying; at first I thought it was crazy to question the globe theory; now I am questioning it myself.

[Lonely Summer]

I think the flat earth was invented by the same folks who invented etrnal torment in "hell". They wanted to send Galileo into eternal fire for the blasphemy of saying, "I have seen the heavenly bodies through my telescope, and I can prove the earth is round".

Devilscope, thats what is is. An instrument of eeeeviilll. I mean to me this is like the latest joke of Satan.... "I got them believing God created most people for eternal torment in a literal ocean of fire, LOLOL.... I even have some of them believing THE EARTH IS FLAT....HeHawwww. Can you believe it! They are so easy.

I really want to believe in UR, I really do, because I am a seriously flawed human, and the promoters of ET have such a confusing formula for who gets into heaven, man, it makes my head spin (like our earth supposedly is). All my life I've heard "we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, NOT our own works"; yet, I've also been told only the righteous get the reward of eternal life. Am I righteous? I sure don't feel righteous; I feel flawed, weak, tempted. Oh, right, we are saved by FAITH ...but what is faith? I'm not a guy who reads the Bible for hours every day....heck, some days I don't read it at all! I don't go to church every Sunday, I'm not a great prayer warrior.....I'm sure most ET people would say I will end up in hell with a stake up my butt! So UR is my hope....but I am seeing so many Bible verses about what appears to be ET..or is it just temporary T? It sure looks like ET to me. So confusing, so confused...

[Dandelion]

I understand. I grew up believing that Hell was very real. My family actually seemed to enjoy the idea of Hell. When I was in 4th grade, my teacher gave me....just me.....a book of mortal sins to look at.....perhaps I was asking too many questions.....that was my one 'mistake' in grammar school. I was a very quiet, obedient child. I don't really know why she gave me the book.....but, I was only 8 years old, and as much as I was a goody-two-shoes type of child, I was thouroughly convinced I was going to Hell. That didn't last long, thank goodness, but it was terrible for a short time.

So, when I heard of Christian Universalism, it seemed to be fitting for the God I knew and loved, but, of course, I didn't want to rush into believing it......I take my faith very seriously, and I did not want to make the wrong choices. So, I went through a time of confusion and looking at many verses, over and over again. I had a wonderful friend to help me through, who was always there to explain things to me, however, and that was a huge help. And, when I joined this and some other websites, I had a chance to see how others thought and to ask some more questions, myself.

The moral of this story is supposed to be....take your time, don't feel you need to decide right away.....listen to all the questions and explanations......continue to read the Bible.....I suggest you get a literal translation Bible.....I have Young's but there are others, I hear, but I have not seen them......and, most importantly, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.

God will be with you. You can count on that.

As for any doctrine being our hope.....I think we must always think that our true hope is in God, alone.

My soul, wait in silence for God only, For my hope is from Him. Psalm 62:5

Blessings, LS! I believe God will bring you home.

D.                         :Peace2:

[marie glen]

Dandelion, I love your very thoughtful posts! Always! Your thoughts, experiences and the verses you post.. :gsmile:

[Dandelion]

Oh, Marie, that is so sweet and kind to say. I thank you so much.

I will tell you.....all the stories are 110% true. I have many stories. I have lived an interesting life.....with God always with me.

Though I don't always say so, I always enjoy and appreciate your posts. This blog has become very special to me.....my UR family, who I never see, but are there, nonetheless.

I thank you, as well as the others, for being there for me, and for one another.

To God be the Glory!           :dsunny:

D.                     :Hi5:

[marie glen]

Lonely Summer, hi! I wonder if anyone has ousted this link to a list of good UR verses - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

I'm thinking I must write and kept handy a list of all the verses thought to imply hell, showing the mistranslation and how misunderstood. You see to compound matters, some of the problem is mistranslations made worse by legend added.

Why even "Sheol" (grave) of the Old Testament - which Ecclesiastes 9:10 says "in Sheol there is no thought nor doing" the Talmud and some Jewish folks turned into a legend resembling, yes, that old hell myth.. And the Gnostics? So veRy warned against by Paul, Peter, Jude and John, was in large part a loose collection of the 'esoteric' elements of ye olde paganism! The basis of which is the 'immortal soul'/inherent immortality, when Paul clearly wrote how immortality will be "put on" at Jesus' return.

It really takes not listening to all those old reports.. And letting God's Word do the speaking straight to us..

I absolutely love this study aid - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Matthew%201:1 which links to the Greek words originally used. Although even then it's very good to be aware of the legends of man built up around words like (Sheol) Gehenna, originally a very scary city dump, and hades, originally death, but Greek legend transformed people's understanding of it..

There's a great thread brother Lazarus did on each book of the Bible, looking for 'hell' and not finding it, especially after these things are understood.. If 'hell' is the danger and so many will end up there, surly every book, every prophet and every apostle would have made warning if it endlessly! Thought I had the link in my bookmarks.. Have to fervor there.. When on my computer, not phone.

:Chinscratch: I had another point I wanted to mention, but it flew out of my mind.. :doh:

Oh! I remember! More and more, some dialogs I witness on the World Wide Web, I am becoming convinced there is a 'hell' cult! There's a certain one on Facebook where trying to persuade staunch nonbelievers by all these horrific images of folks or faces burning and screaming in fire.

"God is love" when all is said and done, that one verse is enough for me! :HeartThrob:

...and surely He simply must be perfect!! And does perfect make any mistakes? Lose anything? (Anyone??) And since He only can be perfect, the 'end' result of all this - human history and life as we know it, can only be the very best one possible. We not only greatly under estimate Him, we outright insult Him (and I believe blaspheme His pure and stellar character.

Any doctrine which implies other, or implies less or other than His 100% ability is not only highly illogical but surely simply cannot be true.. And the scripture does support it. Hope I didn't post a book and a half.. And not too many typos on this little phone :gsmile:

[marie glen]

Bless you, D.. :gsmile: :HeartThrob:

..love your stories!

[Ross]

All my life I've heard "we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, NOT our own works"; yet, I've also been told only the righteous get the reward of eternal life. Am I righteous? I sure don't feel righteous; I feel flawed, weak, tempted. Oh, right, we are saved by FAITH ...but what is faith?

..but I am seeing so many Bible verses about what appears to be ET..or is it just temporary T?

Couple of key questions there.
I.M.O key to our future is what is actually our position in Christ.
Because of what Jesus has done for us we are allowed to be called children of God.1 John 3;1,2 emphasise the reality of our position in Christ. Romans 8;15-17 also highlight that position.
Just like we do not earn our position in our earthly family, we do not earn our heavenly position. However to appreciate that position takes time and has many lessons to learn. The position CAN NOT be lost, because Christ has done all the works to guarantee that position.
So, I.M.O you are righteous In Christ.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!!

[JPS]

Back to the original question of flat earth. IF the earth was flat, ALL the noted stars should be visible at some point during the year. However, if you live in Australia, the NORTH Star (Polaris) is never visible.

[eaglesway]

The North Star thing is a conspiracy. The greys made it invisible to Australians so that we would believe the earth is round :)

[Lonely Summer]

Well, if nothing else, I am getting some good fellowship with my new friend, even if we don't agree on EVERYTHING. I've actually gone to church 2 weeks in a row at a very small, down home type church. And we are having some good discussion about the nature of God, and how our tiny little human brains are incapable of truly getting an idea like eternity. Years ago, a girlfriend asked me "if God created the earth and the universe etc, who created God?" My answer, probably not satisfactory to her, was that God has always been and will always be.

[eaglesway]

 

Well, if nothing else, I am getting some good fellowship with my new friend, even if we don't agree on EVERYTHING. I've actually gone to church 2 weeks in a row at a very small, down home type church. And we are having some good discussion about the nature of God, and how our tiny little human brains are incapable of truly getting an idea like eternity. Years ago, a girlfriend asked me "if God created the earth and the universe etc, who created God?" My answer, probably not satisfactory to her, was that God has always been and will always be.

:thumbsup:

[JPS]

God is not a created thing. He is the uncreated one and the creator of all things seen and unseen. He is the "First Cause" of all that is. Logic says one cannot infinitely regress. If one asks, "Who created God?" Any answer other than he is the eternal one would lead to an infinite regression. As in, Atlas created God. Then who created Atlas? Odin created Atlas. Then who created Odin? Apollo created Odin - and so on.
Everything speck of matter thatexists has a cause. The immaterial and eternal God is the first cause. Scientists agree the universe had a beginning and therefore was caused.

[Lonely Summer]

In talking with my friend, it seems flat earth is tied in with Illuminati theory - the idea that Freemasons rule the world as it is today, and the media and entertainers are all Satanists intent on controlling our every thought. I know there's a lot of bad out there (as Cat Stevens said), but I'm not sure I believe in all this Illuminati stuff. I hope my friend's faith in God is stronger than her belief in these conspiracy theories.

[eaglesway]

Me too!  :Pray: