New Christian from UK

[MayMcFlurry]

Hi all, I found this site searching about beliefs in Christianity that eventually reconciled all humanity to God through Jesus Christ. I'm a new Christian and am still making my mind up as to what I believe... I think liberalism is too far out for me but Christian Universalism makes much more sense. So here I am looking forward to reading many illuminating posts. Just a question, what is the universalism stance on homosexuality? As a questioning bisexual myself it's important to me. Thanks.

[MayMcFlurry]

I'd also love to know what denominations officially accept universal reconciliation? I want to get involved in a local church like this.

[marie glen]

Hi! :hiya: welcome to the forum! I'm afraid I can't be much help to you though! I've not come across a denomination I totally agree with or that is, which I believe is accurate on all points..

I do know our Lord loves all of us, and all people. Mostly I believe it is an issue of yield, yield, yielding ones self to Him. One time when in prayer, yielding, yielding and submitting myself to His will and His work in me, asking to be what he wants me to me, it seemed as though his spirit 'said' when we get to the floor of our being(deep within yielding) that's when I need to start pulling up floor boards :faint:

Which makes sense to me, because if I allow him to have all his way, if there is anything or any idea, or doctrine not quite right in me - and I'm sure there's plenty! - he will be able, I pray, to change me.. Make me and fashion me just as he wants. After all, of what benefit is any thing else??!

Welcome! And much love!

[jabcat]

Welcome.  It can be a struggle, as are all sins of the flesh.  Sometimes we may fall, but Jesus can pick us up if we keep turning to Him.

Paul addresses the issue in Romans 1, along with many issues of our flesh and struggles - and God's will for us in each of our lives.

As marie said, I believe we are called to continually yield to Him, being willing to surrender ourselves and our desires and tendencies to Him, taking up our cross and denying ourselves to follow Him - and have Him shape us completely after His Word and will rather than ANY of our own desires.

Seek Him, don't excuse anything within ourself the Holy Spirit whispers is against God's will, and keep looking to Him for His strength to overcome and for Him to make you/us everything He wants us to be.  God bless.

[MayMcFlurry]

Thank you both for your replies. Marie I enjoyed your post, can I ask you a bit more about how you see Jesus Christ? Are your views on him more conservative or liberal, or a mix of the two? Thanks.

[Dandelion]

Hi May.....Welcome!

I think something to keep in mind is that Christian Universalism is just one part of what we all believe here. Among Christian Universalists, there are many variations on how we view Christianity.

On this website, we represent a wide variety of views, on other Christian topics. We all come from different backgrounds, and over the years, developed some very different points of view.

I think Christianity is mainly about being willing to hand one's life over to God, and let Him be in control.

I would also recommend reading the Bible, and learning about the Bible from people and sources you believe are trustworthy.

Become good friends with the Holy Spirit, who will teach you and guide you along the way.

Look to Jesus as your example, for how to live your life.

Know that you are very much loved by God, and He will always be there for you. Trust Him with your life. Look to God, not people for direction.

I think if you follow the above, you are off to a great start.

And, remember,  God's Love never fails.

So, basically, I am in agreement with the others, who have posted. I think you have some great advice, here.

Regarding Churches that accept UR......you will be very hard pressed to find any, in a mainstream Christian Church. Accepting UR represents turning the present structure on its head, so to speak.

But, please don't let that deter you. I have been a Christian all my life ~ 60 years ~ and I just began believing in UR a year ago. We must always seek the truth, no matter how unpopular or politically incorrect, because God is truth. And, the truth sets us free.         :dsunny:

Be blessed!

D.

[darryl]

Just a question, what is the universalism stance on homosexuality? As a questioning bisexual myself it's important to me. Thanks.

that's a difficult one...seems to be different opinions about homosexuality within UR belief...everything must be seen thru the prism of God's love as His essence is Love...1 John 4:8 ►Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. :dsunny:

[jabcat]

In a sense it doesn't matter what "UR says about it", as what matters is what God says in the scriptures about it (or any topic).  Because as  mentioned earlier, there are varying views in most groups, including those who believe in UR or ET.

In another sense though, there may be some peculiarities within a general belief of UR, regarding the whole eternal torment question based on any of our potential sins, including active same-sex behavior.  The difference being, any group that believes in UR may believe in varying types and durations of discipline/correction/punishment for our sins, but of course won't teach that one is eternally lost and tormented for them. 

I believe my own sins hinder a clean conscience I can have before the Lord, and can affect my fellowship with Him.  I also believe my unwillingness to yield my will to His, especially things clearly written in the scriptures, is not pleasing to the Person who I claim to love, trust, and follow.  Also, I can find myself being a bad witness to the cause of Christ (see David in the OT, as well as Romans 14 about what we allow in our own lives in regards to others' walk and faith).  Finally, a good Father disciplines, and "be sure our sins will find us out".  There are consequences, probably in this life, but if not, in the next.  So whether UR or ET, IMO, it's always best to seek to obey and surrender. 

For me it's an ongoing process, but my refusal to acknowledge His truths never truly help me.   :2c:

[jabcat]

P.S.  If you're a new Christian, know that Jesus is forgiving and merciful.  He doesn't expect you to be mature and full-grown in the faith right off the bat.  But I do believe He expects us to constantly look to Him and be willing to be changed by Him.  He wants children molded in His image, walking right behind Him rather than wandering around in the bushes.  Because more often than not, and when we really need it, we'll find He is actually walking right beside us, with His arm around our shoulder.

[darryl]

if some of the 'hellists' were right, the ones who believe in 'sinless perfection', nobody could be saved because I believe we all sin ..sins of commission and omission...if practicing homosexuality is a sin so is lying and who doesn't tell the occasional 'white lie' ?..who doesn't get angry sometimes ?..or have bad thoughts ?...does everybody live a loving other- centered giving life at all times ?...NO, nobody...well then, i guess we should all go to the lake of fire...but no, the Bible tells us Jesus IS the Savior of the world..not potentially, not might be..but IS...Jesus died for our sin..that's it...either He IS the Savior of the whole world or He isn't..there can be no halfway Savior...Jesus died for practicing homosexuals as much as He died for self-righteous Christians...ALL will find Him in the end...whether in this world or the next.BTW,I'm not Gay but have met homosexuals and they have been among the nicest people I have ever met..very warm and giving people.LOVE is the key and if it's more loving for 2 homosexuals to live in a committed long term married relationship, maybe that's OK ..is it OK and loving to expect  a homosexual to live a life of loneliness and misery?, without the option of EVER being able to be married to another homosexual ?..just cos he had the misfortune of maybe being born Gay ?.

[Ross]

Hi all, I found this site searching about beliefs in Christianity that eventually reconciled all humanity to God through Jesus Christ. I'm a new Christian and am still making my mind up as to what I believe... I think liberalism is too far out for me but Christian Universalism makes much more sense. So here I am looking forward to reading many illuminating posts. Just a question, what is the universalism stance on homosexuality? As a questioning bisexual myself it's important to me. Thanks.

Hi May;
I.M.O this question is answered by the difference between flesh and spirit; the flesh does anything that feels good or is of personal advantage. Will over-ride the law to carry out desires or needs.
The law does not resolve the issues that pop up out of these lusts of the flesh.
Christ came to pay for all of those mistakes.
Part of coming to appreciate what He has done is having these mistakes get exposed to us. The consequences of indulgences can be  personal problems, or side effects which cause the need to search for answers as to
                                                                                                                       " why is this happening to me?"

Paul talks about the difference between flesh and spirit;

Gal 5;18-25 " But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.
                    Now the works of the flesh are obvious;
                    sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, idolatry, sorcery, quarrels, strife, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish rivalries,
                    dissensions, divisions, envyings, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
                   I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
                   By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, self-control;
                   against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with it's passions and desires.
                    Since we live by the Spirit let us also be guided by the Spirit."
                     
If a person is due to be taught the right way, then all their desires will change. Coming to know Him changes ALL our desires- He corrects us as individuals.

1 Cor 15;22-25, " As in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive, but each in his own order;
                          Christ the first fruit,
                          then those who belong to Christ, when He comes
                          Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when He has destroyed every dominion
                          every authority, and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."

Kids do make mistakes and are corrected as appropriate; Our Loving Father is greater than our dads and corrects us.
All will be saved, but we will be trained as He sees fit and when is their appointed time.

Please be encouraged to look earnestly into all the word is pouring out before you. The will be much resistance to change, but He is greater than we are.

Romans 8;38,39 " FOR I AM CONVINCED that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come,
                          nor powers, nor height, nor depth, NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING,
                          will keep us from the love of God in Christ  Jesus our Lord."

Eph 3;19,20 " TO know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
                 Now to Him Who is able to do abundantly above all that we ask or imagine, according to the power that is working
                within us."

[jabcat]

if some of the 'hellists' were right, the ones who believe in 'sinless perfection', nobody could be saved because I believe we all sin ..sins of commission and omission...if practicing homosexuality is a sin so is lying and who doesn't tell the occasional 'white lie' ?..who doesn't get angry sometimes ?..or have bad thoughts ?...does everybody live a loving other- centered giving life at all times ?...NO, nobody...well then, i guess we should all go to the lake of fire...but no, the Bible tells us Jesus IS the Savior of the world..not potentially, not might be..but IS...Jesus died for our sin..that's it...either He IS the Savior of the whole world or He isn't..there can be no halfway Savior...Jesus died for practicing homosexuals as much as He died for self-righteous Christians...ALL will find Him in the end...whether in this world or the next.BTW,I'm not Gay but have met homosexuals and they have been among the nicest people I have ever met..very warm and giving people.

\

Yes we all sin.  IMO, a crucial discernment is whether we admit it (confess) as sin and look to Him to help us turn from it, or deny it as sin and try to justify and accept it as being OK.  The scriptures teach forgiveness, but they also teach obedience.  All will "find" Him (actually, be found) in the "end", but there are many warnings about either walking in obedience vs. the discipline and correction of disobedience.  God will not be mocked, and "be sure your sins find you out".  Paul said to not let grace and freedom become an occasion (excuse) for us to continue willfully in our sin.    There is an in-between the extremes of willful sin vs. self-righteousness, where we can resist living according to whims of our flesh, while at the same time knowing we need forgiveness and help.  Trusting in Him for His mercy and grace for our many failures, while at the same time yielding to Him to shape and change us (rather than resisting His stated will).

As far as "LOVE is the key and if it's more loving for 2 homosexuals to live in a committed long term married relationship, maybe that's OK"..I'd suggest love is crucial in all things, but isn't the only thing to consider, and I'm convinced the scriptures answer 'no' to the above suggestion. (Romans 1 - among many sins of the flesh, but specific to the Opening Post;  "man with man, woman with woman, burning in lust for each other, doing what is unnatural and shameful...due penalty [consequences] for their error").

To this " ..is it OK and loving to expect  a homosexual to live a life of loneliness and misery?, without the option of EVER being able to be married to another homosexual ?..just cos he had the misfortune of maybe being born Gay ?..."  the scriptures speak of denying our flesh (even having it crucified) - no matter what our sins of the flesh is.  So in many cases that means "not eating" the meat of certain things (I have my own), and for the specific question that's been asked in the OP, I believe that means seeking a life of celibacy if necessary and if there are no other scriptural options (i.e., the ability to be in a healthy marriage between a man and a woman as God created and clearly states in scripture).

[jabcat]

Good post Ross, very edifying and scripturally sound  for a new believer (or anyone) who may want to truly follow Christ vs. live in and justify the works of the flesh.
--------------
On another note though, we don't need to go back and cover every single inch of ground as if it's new.  Since you asked the question May, if you have any further specific questions you'd like to ask about what's been said, please do.  But if this becomes just a re-hash by established members who've talked through this before and already have had pretty much of the scriptural evidence stated, we'll quickly move in another direction.  For review and to see if there's anything NEW to explore, I'll post some links to previous discussions on this topic.  Thanks;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/marriage-and-homosexuality/msg194730/#msg194730

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/the-prophetic-character-of-the-nt-same-as-in-the-ot/msg144866/#msg144866

http://tentmaker.org/forum/topics-for-established-members/homosexuality/

May, remember;  God loves you and forgives your failures and gives you strength to follow Him as you surrender to Him and His ways.

[MayMcFlurry]

Wow, thank you all for your posts! I'm still sifting through the information. I appreciate all who've taken their time to reply!

[Ross]

G'day MayMcflurry;
No rush; good info needs to literally sink in so as to increasingly influence our outlook on life.
Also literally ; slow and steady wins the race.
After all the truth is pretty glorious. :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

WELCOME, MAY!

[Patinak]

Hello MayMcFlurry,

I think you have found the best website in the whole world wide web! (the wwww  :doh:)

Welcome,
Pat

[rosered]

  God bless  your  heart  MayMc , as we   all open out hearts door to let the Light of Life shine  openly  and completely   as the darkness ceases to be found  and the DAY IS  glorious       !   :HeartThrob:

[Msandino]

Hi and Welcome!

I'm just a babe here, too, but I wanted to share my thoughts on the questions you've raised.

Denomination: I asked myself the very same question as soon as I decided that I believed in UR. But what I came to find is that there really isn't a denomination that we can run and join. It seems to me that UR people stay in their denomination and hope to enlighten those they can! As I have chosen to do. If in fact we have been called to understand the magnificent truth of UR, then perhaps 1 Cor 7:20 applies: Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.


The faiths/denominations that do believe there is no eternal hell seem to also be those that interpret the scripture in a very allegorical and broad way, for example, may not believe in the Virgin Birth etc.

--Where I am very serious about full application of as much of the scripture as I can fathom. I think that makes me technically an Evangelical Universalist? I believe everything statement of doctrine in my denomination (Foursquare - Pentacostal Charismatic) EXCEPT the eternal damnation of the lost.

UR view on homosexuality: From what I understand, there isn't a UR view per se, it's various gathering of Jesus-loving folks who can't accept the doctrine of Hell.

So the best I can come up with is this: homosexuality (even in the Greek!) is listed by Paul as a sin -- as is lying, adultery, drunkenness, slandering, greed and so on. I'm on that list as well, though heterosexual. The good news is that none of us will be burning in hell eternally or be annihilated! That forgiveness available for all, now and later as well. First fruits and otherwise. (1 Cor 15:20-18)

Welcome and may God bless you and enlighten your heart as your pour over His Word!

[Shev]

Hello All,

I would like to just add that the scriptures do make some distinction between sexual sin and other sin:

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.  19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?  20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

The scriptures themselves therefore actually highlight such sin as an act against the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, this encompasses ALL sexual sin, not just homosexuality, but I feel it is perilous to downplay something that our Father clearly takes seriously.

[CST]

Hi, May, welcome!

The short answer to your question the Universalist position on homosexuality is that all will eventually be saved, like everyone else other than that that a lot of dispute about that.

It seems that you asked the question, on some level, in the hope the someone might be able to come along and say we've looked at the true text of the scriptures and found, like the use of the word 'eternal' the case for how the Bible has presented God's attitude to homosexuality has been over represented. Sorry, God's not going to make it that easy.

Certainly it is true that St. Paul has more to say about homosexuality than the Old Testament which only really has the prohibition of male homosexual acts presented in Leviticus. Female homosexual acts aren't prohibited. Perhaps due to the ritual aspects of the law and the lack of female freedom in Israel in general making it less than necessary.

The thing about the 'temple of God' statement made above quoted by Seth is that surely it only pertains to Christians it suggests that non-Christians who don't have the Holy Spirit inhabiting them presumably don't have this problem and can commit sexual sins to there hearts consent while if Christians do so the Holy Spirit will just leave. So maybe homosexuals are better of not being Christian. These are obviously untenable conclusions.

Also, surely, even if sexual sins are 'against their own body' surely that not all they'll be against. The must also be against the body of the other party mutually, the outside society and also surely all sins are ultimately against the self because they lead to the unwelcome consequence of discipline?

The Bible says a lot of things and the reason this issue has become so prevalent these days is that sex has become so much less discrete. People think they can just happily broadcast the who what and where of their 'conquests'. I really think this is a bad idea and may be behind many of the prohibitions on sexual practises. Though certainly not all of them.

[marie glen]

Thank you both for your replies. Marie I enjoyed your post, can I ask you a bit more about how you see Jesus Christ? Are your views on him more conservative or liberal, or a mix of the two? Thanks.

... :Chinscratch: I'm a mix? Somewhat of a 'liberal' with conservative values? Liberal toward others but conservative when it comes to myself and to outlook.

Example- my son cohabits w/ his girlfriend. Have I ever offered a word of criticism or even advice concerning this? Even though I believe intimacy before or outside of marriage is not the pattern God built.. And the ideal.. Which to Him, and ultimately, is the only pattern for intimacy. I have gay friends and family and I love them dearly and offer no advice - until or unless I am or will be asked. I pray for all people I know and believe ultimately we all will be fully reconciled to our Heavenly Father and fully conformed and in agreement with His will in all things.

I will be officiating at my son and his dear girlfriend's wedding in September.🙂

Once in a while on social network or in a forum, etc, I come across the idea of try this or try that, when it comes to relationships or sexuality. And personally that bothers me more than any other attitude, as though sex is a pastime or hobby.. Instead of a sacred intimacy. I do believe marriage is the traditional, but other ideas about it are not some unable to be forgiven sin! Worse than all others.

I believe it's my 'job'/calling to love my fellow person, and the Holy Spirit's to convince of the right and wrong of all things. I leave it, mostly (almost exclusively) to the HS. And plant seeds or talk universal reconciliation whenever things lead or open up that way. I try to demonstrate His love, which I believe draws. Once getting hold of ones heart, He is perfectly capable to bring about all the rest.
:Peace2: :gsmile:

[marie glen]

P.S- I think every one, no matter their current mindset, should feel free to seek the Lord.😎

[marie glen]

Some absolutely great answers in this thread. I've been having this thought ever more and more, that the New Testament letters, though thoroughly true for all, were written to believers. The admonition to "Godly living", purity and holiness are directed to believers. That although it applies to all the world, as to God's will and all, nonbelievers actually cannot live "Godly lives"!

Now this doesn't mean anything goes, etc. , or that God's will in any issue is any less. But I think I've come to the conclusion that nonbelievers most usually will not be drawn to Jesus and belief through being told what's right and what's not.. I think far too much emphasis is upon symptoms and not the cause. These days most folks hardly believe there is God and haven't heard the saving gospel.. That's the cause and root.

I guess what I'm clumsily trying to say is in many forums or posts, for example on social media, i see Christians putting out admonitions of how homosexuality is a sin, which to the unbeliever equates to 'they hate gay folks' which is not likely true.. But I do not feel it advances the faith at all.

When it comes to unbelievers I don't concern myself with their lives, one way or another.. But simply plant seeds and love them into the faith. But with believers, it's a whole other thing..
My  :2c: anyway.. 😊

[CST]

Some absolutely great answers in this thread. I've been having this thought ever more and more, that the New Testament letters, though thoroughly true for all, were written to believers. The admonition to "Godly living", purity and holiness are directed to believers. That although it applies to all the world, as to God's will and all, nonbelievers actually cannot live "Godly lives"!

Now this doesn't mean anything goes, etc. , or that God's will in any issue is any less. But I think I've come to the conclusion that nonbelievers most usually will not be drawn to Jesus and belief through being told what's right and what's not.. I think far too much emphasis is upon symptoms and not the cause. These days most folks hardly believe there is God and haven't heard the saving gospel.. That's the cause and root.

I guess what I'm clumsily trying to say is in many forums or posts, for example on social media, i see Christians putting out admonitions of how homosexuality is a sin, which to the unbeliever equates to 'they hate gay folks' which is not likely true.. But I do not feel it advances the faith at all.

When it comes to unbelievers I don't concern myself with their lives, one way or another.. But simply plant seeds and love them into the faith. But with believers, it's a whole other thing..
My  :2c: anyway.. 😊

Quite true and something I touched on in my above point. But I also rejected the final conclusion as untenable.

In truth, so far as I understand, Paul's epistles weren't just written to believers, they were written to believers in the specific church and particular community Paul is writing the epistle that's being referenced. I the case of what Seth quote above it's the Church in Corinth the letter is one Corinthians.

What Paul says to the Corinthians about sin being against the self, I've just discovered so this may be open for adjustment, bares more than a passing resemblance to one of the teachings of the Greek philosopher Socrates.  Also the metaphor as humans as the 'temple of God' is almost exclusive to Paul's correspondence to the Corinthians. Other than that it seems there is only one other references in Ephesians (Eph. 2:21) and possible one in the second letter to the Thessalonians (2 Th. 2:4) although I think that might be something different.

It's not helped by the fact that there is more than one word for 'temple' in the Greek text of the Bible.

The issue I really have is this: as I said above Paul says more to criticize homosexuality than anywhere in the Old Testament in Leviticus and he even takes it further than Leviticus. Now this I don't have any problem with provided that proper caution is observed because I certain would be suspicious of any apostle that actively encouraged reckless sexual behavior which I'm no doubt sure he saw homosexuality as being. I doubt very much he conceived of the notion that these people weren't or might not be attracted to the opposite sex. I don't know for sure but I imagine the modern understand of homosexuality never mentioned his mind. Although I doubt it would matter if it did he's written a fair bit on temperance on this subject.

But while Paul is saying this Jesus is saying things like:

"...Hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye...." (Matt. 7:5)

This is particularly pertinent. People do this all the time condemn the sins of others while ignoring they're own. People mentioned it above. Not only that but they argue in their minds ways around their sins so they don't seem like sins anymore. Fine, go ahead it's easy to condemn someone because they failed to resist a temptation that you don't personally have. When you've resisted all your own temptations maybe you'll be in a better position to talk. It's probably why Jesus also says:

"'Judge not, that ye may not be judged,'" (Matt. 7:1)

Judge being otherwise translated as 'condemn'. But as there's no condemnation in Jesus that would suggest Paul can condemn sin and sinners (like homosexuals) as much as he likes with impunity. Which does make a lot of sense especially give that the very next thing Jesus says in verse 2 is:

"'for in what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged, and in what measure ye measure, it shall be measured to you.'"

And this is when I start to have trouble. Are we really at liberty to choose what measure and judgement we apply. The way the Bible presents it's commandments you'd think not. Paul's measure seems a very severe measure to homosexual people and those who sympathize with them but I find it hard to believe Paul will run into difficulties when God measure back to him. So what are we supposed to do with this?

It invite strange questions like if Paul's measure is sound is it possible to be too merciful and thus, on the terms of what Jesus said, receive too much mercy from God? Well the parts match but they don't ring quite true, do they? Humans being more merciful than God. So is it then in fact more merciful to address these damaging issues rather then just ignoring them. Maybe but it's hard to imagine the receive seeing any such 'intervention' and if done badly will simply harden them on their path.

Strange position.