Another Argument for the Hebrew mindset of the scriptures

[eaglesway]

From time to time discussions have come up on what is a common point of dissension among Bible scholars- "In which language was the NT original spoken"?

Some think Greek, some think Aramaic, some think the Pharisees spoke a form of Hebrew in the temple and in their mid-rash and discussions of Torah.

There is one thing I think that is often missed.

To whatever degree the Jews had been Hellenized or Romanized- Jesus did not seem to struggle with that. The things He struggled with the Sanhedrin over were all intrinsically and overwhelmingly Hebrew issues.

Issues of understanding the law and the prophets that WENT BACK FURTHER THAN the contemporary languages of His time, and were still the prevalent points of contention between YHWH and His chosen people.

The Jews were Jewish no matter what language they spoke- and especially among their heirarchy and preisthhood. Always reaching back for that former glory and using the law to rule rather than to serve.

The purpose of translation is to render the "thoughts of the speaker in his time and place" with words that communicate those very same thoughts in the language of the hearer in his time and place.

There is no doubt in my mind that regardless of what various languages may have been spoken by each individual writer of each individual epistle, the mindset of the writers was Hebrew. They were still, culturally and religiously Hebrews.

Going back to the Greek roots of the Septuagint does not always get to the root thought, if the speaker was a Hebrew thinking like a Hebrew. Thinking from the contextual paradigm of Hebrew cosmology. The fact that the Israelites misused the words of Moses and the prophets does not mean that the cosmology established among them was inaccurate. As a matter of fact it was far more realistic than anything the pagan Romans and Greeks and Assyrians and Egyptians had landed in. After thousands of years of development they were still just recycling the basic myths of the Fertile Crescent, which may have been the "Tales of the Nephilim"( from Gen 6:4).

Looking at the usages of Greek words by Aristotle, Plato and Socrates does not always give an accurate result in understanding the "thought" in the mind of the speaker in his time, if he was speaking from an ancient Hebrew paradigm/cosmology. Pure etymology also does not always give an exact result, because the word being analyzed IS OFTEN A DERIVATIVE WORD, or an INTERPRETED WORD to begin with.

A good example is "aion" versus "olam".

Did the original speaker(Paul) think in terms of "olam" or "aion"

I hear often among universalists that "aion" means "a period of time with an end and a beginning". This is often used as evidence that there is no "everlasting" torment.

Olam was a word with a much greater application because it was more an adjective than a noun and it was defined in conjunction with the subject it was attached to....

A definition of olam could be...

An unknown quantity of time defined by the subject or circumstances it defines.

I have heard it said that olam was a "distant long-during time"- but that is not always so, as in the indenture of the bondslave in Deuteronomy 15:16- it was less than a human lifetime.

olam also often had the element of "world" as in an unseeable place like the "world to come"- which it still has today among modern Jews(olam haba- the world to come...."olam haze"- this present evil world"...tikkun olam..."repairing the world")

I think this is why "aion" is occasionally translated "world" as in Hebrews 1. Aion shows forth that connection to "olam" there. It is an indicator also that the translators were aware of this contextually dependent variety in the meaning of "olam" and supplied the appropriate(in their consensus opinion) "worlds"(altho ages works just as well for me)

So what was Paul, Hebrew of Hebrews, Pharisee of Pharisees thinking when He wrote. Was he thinking like a Greek or a Roman?

What about Peter and James, who hung out with the Jewish brethren and were almost dragged back under the law by hypocrites? Did they think like Greeks or Romans? What about Jesus, who took the words of the prophets as His common context and explained the law from the mind of the giver of it? Was he thinking like a Greek or a Roman?

I personally dont see how anyone could think they did.

So, back to the opening premise. If the goal of translation is to render the thoughts of the speaker in his time and place into words that communicate those same thoughts in our time and place.

Then appropriate weight should be given to the back ground study of context from the Hebrew point of view- in any translation, and in any conversation where it would apply.

So, olam sometimes means "the far distant past", it sometimes means the "world to come" or "the other world" or "world/age", it sometimes means "the term of an indentured slave measured by the length of his remaining life"- when connected to YHWH- it may mean "forever" and at least certainly means "unknowably long, unseeable, "beyond the horizon" of anyone's ability to see.

In every use of "aion" I see that variety and unknowableness of "olam" and the inclusion of the "world" concept, because these will be new and different "worlds to come". But I am always reminded of the blond slave in Deuteronomy and the fact that we can't draw the lines to tightly around certain things or we might miss "uncertain things" God wishes to reveal in part, as we do know in part, as we look through the misty glass into the olam.

Yet routinely I read that aion means definitely always means "a period of time with a beginning and an end", because of the intensity of desire to debunk "eternity" and "everlasting", but maybe that goes to far.

I like "an unknown period appropriate to"

punishment.. "you shall not escape until you have paid the very last penny" "the punishment of the world/age to come" (aionian kolassis)

Not necessarily "age-during". For some it may only be a few moments of being "divided asunder" in order to have their "thoughts and intentions" made manifest by the sword of the Spirit. For some perhaps longer- if such an experience can be measured in time. Who knows? It is olam! Olam esh! The fire of the world to come.

As pertains to God, God has no end,  His duration is unknowable in terms of our ability to see it but most definitely everlasting and eternal..

Eternal and everlasting(forever) are two very different words. To me eternal communicates both the nature of, and the duration of, the life of God and the world(s) to come. Everlasting, only the duration. Yet both words are used to convey aion/aionios, which, imo, are interpretations of olam.

So to me in certain places, based in the context, eternal is in places an appropriate English word to describe unknowable duration AND the unforseeable nature of the "world/ages" to come, especially when connected to the resurrection life of the saints and of divine nature of God.

[sheila]

to me..LOVE AND TRUTH[true understanding] is what crowns man with the likeness and image of God.  there are gentle loving beasts

lesser creatures...be as innocent as a dove..a gentle non malicious nature..but lacking intelligence-silly as a dove. there are highly intelligent

beasts that have a malicious nature......now the serpent was more cautious than any beast of the field...and all predator beasts are

intelligent about their prey..downright cunning.

   so, a mindset/knowledge/intelligence/understanding, without a proper heart set/love ......profits nothing.

   they say but do not do...do all they say..but not as they do.  you can do something in ignorance with a good heart motive...and

death/harm..... be the end of it...........or you can do some act with full understanding and intelligence with bad heart motive..and

death/harm be the end of it............TRUTH AND LOVE IS WISDOM  FROM ABOVE....knowledge without Love is a clanging symbol

   Love without knowledge makes for easy prey..my people perish for a lack of knowledge...easily entrapped and ensnared..love is

innocent as a babe...and just like the babe..without intelligent LOVE/Understanding Parenting/guarding/protecting it..will surely die.


    Wise up,buttercup...He's been known to make jealous by a people without understanding ,  He can teach truth/knowledge if the

love's there...but if the love's not there   :Chinscratch:   

[eaglesway]

Definitely anything we do that is not full of His love is fruitless.

But as we love we also pursue wisom and truth. A person who walks in love is never ignorant, but that does not mean we do not also still dig in the field for knowledge.

By wisdom a house is built, And by understanding it is established; 4And by knowledge the rooms are filled With all precious and pleasant riches....Proverbs 24:3

Much of the study and scholarship that has gone into the digging out of word meanings like "aion" and "sheol" and "olam" has been accomplished by love as well. Men and women who love the truth pursuing it into the depths of language and time in order to deliver the tru gospel that Jesus saves all to the world.

The work of men and women willing to be counted as heretics. Brilliant minds counted as perverse messengers of the devil.

Love manifests in many ways. We have to be careful how we judge anothers love. Only the Lord knows, and I know the Lord loves a zealous seeker of truth even as He loves a zealous hearer of His words.

I mean, look at Paul for instance. Man, talk about love, whew. Yet he carried the mystery of the gospel in the wisdom and knowledge of God- a spirit of wisdom and revelation(Eph 1)- rooted and grounded in love(Eph 3)- filled up to all the fulness of God(Eph 3)- unto a mature man...speaking the truth in love...no longer tossed about by every wind of doctrine(Eph 4)... edifying the body of Christ in all things.

[rosered]

Paul is a great example of the ''experience ''   and presence of God    John ! :iagree:

      Shelia ... :HeartThrob:
   
Love is the sacrifice Eph 5 ;2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
and pure motivator of the hearts  intent  , GOD IS LOVE !!

Finding 1 Cor 1   Speaking the truth in LOVE ... 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1



26 For consider your calling, brethren,

that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;


27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise,


and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,


28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen,


the things that are not,(    We walk by faith not by sight ,    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.   this is walking in the Spirit'' of truth ''   that guides us  , that has both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ ...  the mind of Christ is  pleasing to the Father )   the   Holy things done in secret   that the Father rewards openly ....  not seen or   seeking   the praising of men ,  not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing ...  )  After reading the book of Mark , I wonder how mankind can deny the wonderful signs and miracles of Jesus Christ casting out the evil works of  satan  ruling and reigning in men's hearts  making them slaves to sin   , and allows the kingdom of God to come upon them ..


so that He may nullify the things that are, Romans 1     the whole chapter explains   this burning lusts  [likened to  sodom and gomorrah ]  , men with men 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them

29 so that no man may boast before God.

30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,


31 so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord." :HeartThrob:


The process of the  body , soul and spirit   are to  be    HEALED   and  made whole /complete and ONE WITH GOD    though the work of the Lord Jesus Christ  , HIS WORD made flesh dwelling  within us ..


and  the new creature in Christ  is HERE/come / arrived   for so many whom have been ''touched by Gods finger '' ! Luke 11:20
s
"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.....

2 Cor 5  ►

New International Version
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

New Living Translation
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!

English Standard Version
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Berean Study Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

King James Bible
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


We all are to encourage one another in  Love   by Lifting up the Lord  Jesus Christ body     to the  HEAD/WISDOM OF GOD  and holding it  far   ABOVE   the body of death / below ..   as Jesus told  his followers ,  let the dead bury the dead , You come follow  Me ....

[marie glen]

From time to time discussions have come up on what is a common point of dissension among Bible scholars- "In which language was the NT original spoken"?

Some think Greek, some think Aramaic, some think the Pharisees spoke a form of Hebrew in the temple and in their mid-rash and discussions of Torah.

There is one thing I think that is often missed.

To whatever degree the Jews had been Hellenized or Romanized- Jesus did not seem to struggle with that. The things He struggled with the Sanhedrin over were all intrinsically and overwhelmingly Hebrew issues.

Issues of understanding the law and the prophets that WENT BACK FURTHER THAN the contemporary languages of His time, and were still the prevalent points of contention between YHWH and His chosen people.

The Jews were Jewish no matter what language they spoke- and especially among their heirarchy and preisthhood. Always reaching back for that former glory and using the law to rule rather than to serve.

The purpose of translation is to render the "thoughts of the speaker in his time and place" with words that communicate those very same thoughts in the language of the hearer in his time and place.

There is no doubt in my mind that regardless of what various languages may have been spoken by each individual writer of each individual epistle, the mindset of the writers was Hebrew. They were still, culturally and religiously Hebrews.

Going back to the Greek roots of the Septuagint does not always get to the root thought, if the speaker was a Hebrew thinking like a Hebrew. Thinking from the contextual paradigm of Hebrew cosmology. The fact that the Israelites misused the words of Moses and the prophets does not mean that the cosmology established among them was inaccurate. As a matter of fact it was far more realistic than anything the pagan Romans and Greeks and Assyrians and Egyptians had landed in. After thousands of years of development they were still just recycling the basic myths of the Fertile Crescent, which may have been the "Tales of the Nephilim"( from Gen 6:4).

Looking at the usages of Greek words by Aristotle, Plato and Socrates does not always give an accurate result in understanding the "thought" in the mind of the speaker in his time, if he was speaking from an ancient Hebrew paradigm/cosmology. Pure etymology also does not always give an exact result, because the word being analyzed IS OFTEN A DERIVATIVE WORD, or an INTERPRETED WORD to begin with.

A good example is "aion" versus "olam".

Did the original speaker(Paul) think in terms of "olam" or "aion"

I hear often among universalists that "aion" means "a period of time with an end and a beginning". This is often used as evidence that there is no "everlasting" torment.

Olam was a word with a much greater application because it was more an adjective than a noun and it was defined in conjunction with the subject it was attached to....

A definition of olam could be...

An unknown quantity of time defined by the subject or circumstances it defines.

I have heard it said that olam was a "distant long-during time"- but that is not always so, as in the indenture of the bondslave in Deuteronomy 15:16- it was less than a human lifetime.

olam also often had the element of "world" as in an unseeable place like the "world to come"- which it still has today among modern Jews(olam haba- the world to come...."olam haze"- this present evil world"...tikkun olam..."repairing the world")

I think this is why "aion" is occasionally translated "world" as in Hebrews 1. Aion shows forth that connection to "olam" there. It is an indicator also that the translators were aware of this contextually dependent variety in the meaning of "olam" and supplied the appropriate(in their consensus opinion) "worlds"(altho ages works just as well for me)

So what was Paul, Hebrew of Hebrews, Pharisee of Pharisees thinking when He wrote. Was he thinking like a Greek or a Roman?

What about Peter and James, who hung out with the Jewish brethren and were almost dragged back under the law by hypocrites? Did they think like Greeks or Romans? What about Jesus, who took the words of the prophets as His common context and explained the law from the mind of the giver of it? Was he thinking like a Greek or a Roman?

I personally dont see how anyone could think they did.

So, back to the opening premise. If the goal of translation is to render the thoughts of the speaker in his time and place into words that communicate those same thoughts in our time and place.

Then appropriate weight should be given to the back ground study of context from the Hebrew point of view- in any translation, and in any conversation where it would apply.

So, olam sometimes means "the far distant past", it sometimes means the "world to come" or "the other world" or "world/age", it sometimes means "the term of an indentured slave measured by the length of his remaining life"- when connected to YHWH- it may mean "forever" and at least certainly means "unknowably long, unseeable, "beyond the horizon" of anyone's ability to see.

In every use of "aion" I see that variety and unknowableness of "olam" and the inclusion of the "world" concept, because these will be new and different "worlds to come". But I am always reminded of the blond slave in Deuteronomy and the fact that we can't draw the lines to tightly around certain things or we might miss "uncertain things" God wishes to reveal in part, as we do know in part, as we look through the misty glass into the olam.

Yet routinely I read that aion means definitely always means "a period of time with a beginning and an end", because of the intensity of desire to debunk "eternity" and "everlasting", but maybe that goes to far.

I like "an unknown period appropriate to"

punishment.. "you shall not escape until you have paid the very last penny" "the punishment of the world/age to come" (aionian kolassis)

Not necessarily "age-during". For some it may only be a few moments of being "divided asunder" in order to have their "thoughts and intentions" made manifest by the sword of the Spirit. For some perhaps longer- if such an experience can be measured in time. Who knows? It is olam! Olam esh! The fire of the world to come.

As pertains to God, God has no end,  His duration is unknowable in terms of our ability to see it but most definitely everlasting and eternal..

Eternal and everlasting(forever) are two very different words. To me eternal communicates both the nature of, and the duration of, the life of God and the world(s) to come. Everlasting, only the duration. Yet both words are used to convey aion/aionios, which, imo, are interpretations of olam.

So to me in certain places, based in the context, eternal is in places an appropriate English word to describe unknowable duration AND the unforseeable nature of the "world/ages" to come, especially when connected to the resurrection life of the saints and of divine nature of God.

:thumbsup: thank you! I like to review "olam" and it's difference in shade to aion or ageduring. Ageduring may work, I think, okay for communicating with those new to the concept, believers or nonbelievers.. But I totally agree that the mindset of Jesus, and the apostles and Paul would be more inclined to be the Hebrew mindset put forth in the Old Testament.. Some Jewish belief adapted the beliefs of the nations and which I have heard or read is reflected in the Talmud.. But since Yahweh inspired the word/message I cannot conceive of the mindset being Greek or Roman.
  :smile:

[eaglesway]

I think as our understanding of the background grows our understanding of the foreground increases. Context. Perspective. The breadth and depth of the wisdom of God. :)

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

[marie glen]

:thumbsup: amen!

[greg]

The Hebrew noun עולמ is related or derived from the verb עלמ, which means "to hide," "keep secret," or "obscure."  Knowing that, it helps confirm that this question is meant to be a saga of uncovering something hidden or confusing.  As a Hebrew noun, עלמ also means "world/age".

Given the seriousness of the matter at issue here, if עולמ ever meant 'everlasting' then there should be some statement in scripture defining it clearly as a time period that does not end or that cannot end.  I have never found any such statement in the bible.

Indeed, as you correctly observe EW, it frequently refers to a short time period, such as in Jonah 2:6.  "I went down to the moorings of the mountains; the earth with its bars closed behind me לעולמ yet You have brought up my life from the pit, YHVH, my Elohim." 

In this case of Jonah,  עולמ  meant only three days, which shows its true meaning is finite (often simply a world/age beyond the horizon to the observer).

There are countless examples where  עולמ refers to a definite/limited period of time that could not logically be everlasting. See e.g., Exodus 21:6 "then hath his lord brought him nigh unto Elohim, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, and he hath served him — to the age."

Indeed, עולמ can only be understood in context.   I think the Hebrew language itself makes that plain, even though the Hebrews often disagreed on interpretations. For example, many Pharisees preached everlasting souls just like the Greek mystics did. 

Consider this modern translation (KJV) of Psalm 45:6: "Thy throne, O God, [is] age-during and for everעולמ ועד , A sceptre of uprightness [Is] the sceptre of Thy kingdom."

The King James Version incorrectly translates עולמ ועד as "for ever and ever," which would not be logical because the Bible uses this same Hebrew phrase, עולמ ועד, in Exodus 15:18 (perhaps best translated as YHVH reigns — to the age, and beyond)'.  If עולמ meant "forever" by itself, why do we find constructs (such as ועד) which tell us there is a "beyond" this "forever," as in Exodus 15:18.

As we see throughout the bible, עד simply means 'continuing' or 'during'.  It does not mean perpetual by itself, let alone 'everlasting' or 'forever'.   Indeed,  עד is/was a finite temporal word used in normal everyday Hebrew speech.  It also means "witness" – the word is indeed grounded in reality. 

[eaglesway]

Indeed, עולמ can only be understood in context.

This is for me the primary point. I might disagree with the "definite/limited", if I am understanding you properly.  I would say "indefinite but definitely limited/defined by the context"

I still maintain that when olam is situated in context with YHWH it can be everlasting- perhaps you will dissuade me of that  :gimmefive:, but so far that is what my studies in multiple resources have persuaded me to believe.

[greg]

Indeed, עולמ can only be understood in context.

This is for me the primary point. I might disagree with the "definite/limited", if I am understanding you properly.  I would say "indefinite but definitely limited/defined by the context"

I still maintain that when olam is situated in context with YHWH it can be everlasting- perhaps you will dissuade me of that  :gimmefive:, but so far that is what my studies in multiple resources have persuaded me to believe.

Right on EW.  I would venture that as witnesses today, we have not experienced infinity.  Rather, at our best we only experience/witness perpetual systems.  I think the bible is teaching us that lesson when we read it literally, to be honest witnesses of our perspectives given to us, rather than perspectives outside of our horizon.

I think you honor YHWH in your post. The glory of YHWH is outside of our horizon.  I expect He can create spirits and matters and dimensions beyond our imaginations.  I think that was the main import of your post.

As for the Hebrew word עולמ (olam), it is inherently grounded in the humility of the observer.  That's the traditional Hebrew perspective.

[eaglesway]

Amen greg. I like the portrayal in Phil 2:

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

A vision of a perpetual system :o)

His humility became His exaltation. His victory was in His emptying of Himself. His ascension was fueled by His love, and for that reason the multitudes of the captivity are drawn up in His train.

I agree with the idea of perpetual systems, and I see in Eph 4:11

"He who descended is also He who ascended that He might fill all things", His ascending is perpetual and in that power the drawing of captives out of futility in the fulness of God will continue until all are in the perpetual glory of an ever expanding love of God and one another...

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto Me"

We, as ambassadors of that glory are called into the same trust towards an olam vision..."We kno not yet what we shall be"... but the whole creation eagerly awaits it and groans together with us...."the revelation of the sons of God"...will set the whole creation free from futility into "the glorious liberty of the children of God"- our olam destiny hidden behind the veil...an inheritance reserved in heaven for us...a salvation ready to be revealed in the last imes.... the administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma) of times- gathering all things into one in Christ... good works prepared for us from the foundation of the world(olam past) that we should walk in them(olam future) in the "ages to come(Eph 2:7).

I love this call to humility which allows us to see. Only those who are not so sure they have arrived will get there at all, and the clues are left for those who are still seeking, asking, hungry and thirsty.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

This humility is the acceptable offering....a suitable resting place for the flame..... the fuel of the divine fire.

[greg]

Right on, appreciate the insights.

I think another important milestone on the humility journey in Hebrew studies is the acknowledgment that the Hebrew and Aramaic word כל means "any", and its alternate translation "all" is just a possibility -- context sets its definition.  Literally first, כל always just means "any".  It does not mean "all" except in the sense that the fullest expression of "any" in context can be "all" if context requires.   For example, "the Messiah can save any man" means exactly that -- "any".  It could mean "all", but the text would first require sufficiently clear context to make that fuller expression of the word "any".  So, the humble Hebrew says כל without ever claiming an absolute.  Rather, he speaks in terms of possibilities, which is his humble perspective. 

As I posted recently:

...another cool thing about kl meaning "all/any" is that it embodies humility because men do not promise more than they can deliver.  It embodies the premise that we cannot make one hair on our heads change color without God.  So for example, if you instruct your worker to gather klmdm ("all/any whatever") apples in your orchard, then your worker just needs to gather "any" that he can to the best of his ability.  He does not need to gather "all".   If you want him to literally gather them all, every single one, then you would need to say that explicitly in Hebrew/Aramaic with the proper context, such as knuSh klhyn ula Khd nShThbq ("gather them all and not one shall be left").  You can see this in the bible explicitly in several examples, such as:

• John 1:3, kl baydh hua ublEaduhy apla Khda huTh mdm dhua ("All in His hands existed, and without him not even one existed whatever of existence").  Notice how the second part of this verse puts the first in context to fix the meaning of kl as "all" rather than "any". 
• Matthew 5:18, amyn gyr am rana lkun dEadma dnEabrun Shmya uarEa yud Khda au Khd srta la nEabr mn nmusa Eadma dkl nhua ("Believe.  For I say to you that until that will cross over heaven and earth, one yod and one stroke not will cross over from the law until that all/any will be.")  See also Matthew 5:20 for the concluding context of this verse ("I say to you that if not exceeds your righteousness greater than the scribes and the Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.")
• Psalm 14:3, hkl sr yKhdu nalKhu ayn EaShh tub ayn gm aKhd ("All have gone astray together and they have become filthy; there is none who does good; not even one."
• Psalm 34:20, Shmr kl EaTsmuThyu aKhTh mhnh la nShbrh ("He keeps all his bones.  Not one of them is broken.")  See also John 19:36.
• Psalm 53:3, klu sg yKhdu nalKhu ayn EaShh tub ayn gm aKhd ("All of them is gone back. They are altogether become filthy. None does good.  No, not one."
• Isaiah 40:26, Shau mrum Eaynykm urau my bra alh hmuTsya bmspr Tsbam lklm bShm yqra mra mrb aunym uamyTs kKh aySh la nEadr  ("Lift up on high your eyes and behold who has created these that brings out by number their host, to all of them by name he calls, of the greatness of his might for that strong of his power. Not one was missing."
• Mark 13:2, "Do you see these great buildings? Not will be left here a stone upon a stone that not will be torn down."

...

• Mark 6:39, "And he commanded them to seat klnSh on the grass."  Is Yahshua commanding the apostles to gather all men throughout infinite time and space and make them sit down on the grass that day in Galilee? 
• Mark 13:13, "And you will be hated by klnSh because of my name, but whoever will endure until the end will be saved."   Is Yahshua instructing the apostles that all men throughout infinite time and space will hate them, and that whoever will endure to the end will be saved, and by "whoever" he means all men throughout infinite time and space, and by "end" he actually means "no end" because time is infinite?

...
[/list]

Looking at all these examples, you will begin to appreciate not only the importance of context to either make or limit absolute statements, and also (key point) the importance of the 'negative affirmation' when claiming absolutes.  In other words, to claim an absolute, it is not really enough to say in Israel that "all/any" of something should occur.  To claim an absolute in Hebrew and Aramaic, it is proper to also add the negative affirmation, "that not one" apple shall be left on the ground, "that not one" soul shall be destroyed, etc.

Without an absolute statement, the matter remains in a state of probability.  And in God anything is possible, including the complete destruction of the wicked.  Shall destruction not be possible with God?  If so, where does the text say that?

So I think the most humble and literal reading of the gospel, from the Hebrew mindset, is that the Messiah can save any man, even a Samaritan.   The Messiah draws any man to Him, even a sinner who is ritually unclean. 

But to say the Messiah saves all men is simply not literal from the Hebrew perspective.

Malachi 4:1, "Behold, the day is coming, burning like a firepot; and all the proud, and every doer of wickedness shall be chaff.  And the coming day will set them ablaze, says Yahweh of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them."

Proverbs 24:20, "The evil have no future. The lamp of the wicked will go out."

Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: and awe of him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."

Isaiah 65:17-20, "For behold, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.... No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred, And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be thought accursed."

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die."

Matthew 13:42, "The Son of Man will send his angels and they will pick out from his kingdom all the stumbling blocks and all the servants of wickedness and they will throw them into the furnace of fire. In that place will be crying and gnashing of teeth."

Proverbs 12:7, "The wicked are overthrown, and are no more, but the house of the righteous shall stand."

In the psalms, King David describes the wicked "like chaff that the wind drives away... the wicked will perish" (Psalm 1:4 and 1:6). David explains that the wicked "fade like the grass, and wither like an herb" (Psalm 37:2). They "shall be cut off...and...will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there. (Psalm 37:9–10). "The wicked perish...like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20). "The transgressors shall be altogether destroyed" (Psalm 37:38). The wicked are analogized to finite things like grass, and then the text explains that they are destroyed as finite things are destroyed.

Nahum 1:9-10, "What are you plotting against Yahweh? He will make an utter end; distress shall not rise up a second time...they shall be devoured like fully dried straw."

Matthew 13:40, "As therefore the weeds are picked out and burned in the fire, so it will be in the end of this world/age."

[rosered]

    Loving these wonderful   insights  :dsunny:

I can  gather   from you both sharing    , as it seems a spirit is a life  and  if  it is a bad  or evil spirit   that  receives chastening and fire   to humble and submit  defeat  or even be   captured and   retained     in a lake of fire for  purification  because a spirit    does not die  but must be    changed to GODS own  Holy / Pure  spirit  but a soul  can  die  and  no longer exist , or be as it was before the fire /trial  of fire of Gods consuming  [a life that has  been feeding off a  bad spirit .

I automatically thought of Jesus telling  James and John  , being the sons of thunder  , they did not know what manner of spirit they were of   .. it is   a spirit of destruction     not Life , Jesus was all about    , living and restoring and   regenerating  and making  everything new and  pure , holy  . a work of bringing back  NEW  Life from the dead .

Some mans sins are known before judgement and some come after  ,  and seeing judgement  as  openly bearing and exposing    what is ruling a mans heart to the  fire and Light of the gospel    GODS WORD   to save   what   can be saved and destroy what needs to go , and be no more   ''alive ''  active or working   ,  this can be the perpetual  systems     as GODS WORD BEING ACTIVE /SWORD   to divide Hebrews 4


1 Timothy 5:24 Context

21I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. 22Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. 23Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. men they follow after.'>24Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. 25Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

God's Word is Living and Active
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account....

His eyes are a flame    Rev 19 11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head.

He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God....

Even our own   tongue  / being the WORD OF GOD  has the power of life and death   in it and  eats the fruit of our doings [reaps what he sows   being destruction and eath or Life  and peace ] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+18&version=NASB

I for one am glad to  have   you both sharing these things     with us all  ....  GOD BLESSES us all  / any , at any time  or leaves us to our own destruction , till we  begin to learn what  HIS  righteousness  truly  is  and means to be humbled .

[eaglesway]

greg,

Altho I can understand the concept you are expressing about "any" and "all", I think in many places, in the NT the "all" is clearly and emphatically expressed in the context.

In Phil 2:9-11 I do not believe, personally, that "any" fits the context. Paul being a Hebrew of Hebrews expressed the thought "all" in so many verses, such as Col 1:15-20; 1 Cor 15:22-28; Romans 11:32-36

22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death. 27 For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. But when it says "everything" has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. 28 And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

I don't believe "any" works contextually in a single instance in the above veres.

"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things"

I do not think "any" works at all ;o) here either.

The purpose of translation is to render the thoughts of the speaker in his time in the words that express the same thought to the hearer in our time, so in these and many other instance "all" is clearly the correct translation, and the issue(imo) is not humility- it is clarity. Clarity is the humble way, because the Spirit is leading and guiding us into "all" truth.

Our minds ought to follow in serving the saints with the truth wherever it is clear and in keeping with His character who is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature and who, by the word of His power holds 'all' together." (Heb 1:1-3)

In the OT, a good example is in Isaiah 25

On this mountain he will swallow up
the shroud that is over all the peoples,
the woven covering that is over all the nations;
8 he will swallow up death permanently.
The sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from every face,
and remove his people's disgrace from all the earth.
Indeed, the Lord has announced it!
9 At that time they will say,
"Look, here is our God!
We waited for him and he delivered us.
Here is the Lord! We waited for him.
Let's rejoice and celebrate his deliverance!"
10 For the Lord's power will make this mountain secure.

I do not think "any" works in these verses well either. God does make "broad declarations" and even "universal declarations" and when we are echoing His thoughts in those, we are still, imo, in the "humble way".

But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly 23 and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks of something better than Abel's does. Heb 12

All is inclusive of any, and I am certain in some places the context supports "any" equally as well-  I will begin checking for that. Clearly, in many cases, "all" is the proper understanding of what the Spirit is saying in the scroll, whether in the Hebrew mindset or the Greek, because God is speaking to "any" and "all" though the scriptures.

Perhaps in some of these verses I have quoted a different Hebrew word would be used for "all"?

[greg]

I hear you.  Key point though --  English often unnaturally divides gospel text in two parts/translations that are not actually divided in Hebrew.   For example, עלמ ("world/age") means both "world" and "age" in Hebrew.  The Hebrew language connects space & time, where the English language divides them.  Moreover, the word עלמ is often mistranslated/divided further as "forever" (a third division/translation to fit various theologies).

That's the point I'm also emphasizing with כל ("all/any").  The word כל is not divided in Hebrew thought, but unified (it always means "any" in the most literal Hebrew sense, and understand too that the Hebrew "any" is not the same as the English "any").  Because כל is unified, it means that a man cannot easily claim an absolute with the word כל – he can only speak from his limited perspective. 

Moreover, because כל is unified it means that in God anything is possible.  We are not allowed to force God to save everything or do everything, or destroy anything or destroy everything.  It is God's choice.

"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things"
I do not think "any" works at all ;o) here either.

Does "all things" include near infinite-torment?  Or just the "all things" you want God to be?   :laughing7:

No, I get what you're saying in your post (and I appreciate your post and the sincerity of it).  I would just encourage you to step back from the word study and remember that you are indeed speaking English.  If you say כל from your heart in Hebrew, and think it in Hebrew without translating, it really doesn't sound awkward in the slightest when you quote those verses. 

It's beautiful in the Hebrew.  The English word "any" is just the best approximation we have for purposes of literal English translation.   

[eaglesway]

I think we may both have to step back from the word study. There are several authorities and in my view, context is the highest one when looking at the thoughts behind words in specific verses.

Reading in English is no inhibition to understanding if the context of the thought reveals the correct understanding. Man is not speaking from his limited perspective if he has properly received the thought YHWH is relaying in the scroll.

Instead we speak the wisdom of God, hidden in a mystery, that God determined before the ages(aionion/olam/world-ages) for our glory...God has revealed these to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God....Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 1 Cor 2

The same thought here...

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things(any and all) in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

I am totally in agreement about olam as world/age. The general context from the beginning to the end of the scripture confirms that understanding, although there are exceptions to that also, which are manifest in particular contexts, such as....

"It shall come about if he says to you, 'I will not go out from you,' because he loves you and your household, since he fares well with you; 17then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever(olam)." Deut 15:17

Here the word olam is defined simply at its core meaning, an indeterminate time, the remaining life span of said servant. There is further contextual support for this example of the thought  "olam" as a word for a thought being defined in context in Leviticus...

"46You may give them as inheritance to your children after you to possess as property. You may enslave them perpetually. However, as for your brothers the Israelites, no man may rule over his brother harshly.
47 "'If a resident foreigner who is with you prospers and your brother becomes impoverished with regard to him so that he sells himself to a resident foreigner who is with you or to a member of a foreigner's family, 48 after he has sold himself he retains a right of redemption. One of his brothers may redeem him, 49 or his uncle or his cousin may redeem him, or anyone of the rest of his blood relatives—his family—may redeem him, or if he prospers he may redeem himself. Lev 25

Here the slave may end the olam period him/herself if they earn the value to purchase their freedom and desire to do so. This is not a "world/age", except in a most oblique interpretation. It will nevertheless definitely end.... as will any period of correction which is olam with an ending point explained in Eph 1, Phil 2 and 1 Cor 15.... every knee shall bow and every tongue confess....every adversary will be subjected....all will be gathered into one in Christ...God will be all in all...

In the case of all/any I have no disagreement that both apply, but to me the general context from the beginning to the end of the scriptures reveals(imo) that often, all is the superior rendering- because it is the mind of the Spirit as it is revealed by the writer in common usage.

We don't need to force anything when the context reveals it is the divine purpose and the "kind intention" of YHWH.

9 He did this when he revealed to us the secret of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, 10 toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ—the things in heaven and the things on earth. Eph 1

Simply reading the verses and substituting "any" in those places would be "forcing" the word study over the context- which, as I see it, brings the word study into question as regards accurate translation.

This assumes(which I do assume and weigh it as the correct assumption) that, as I stated in my last post, "The purpose of translation is to render the thoughts of the speaker in his time in words that express the same thought to the hearer in our time"

Different authorities/students of the languages of antiquity assert different conclusions. I weigh them by the overall context.

I would see no reason to accept assertions that are contradicted consistently in the occurrences of the word in various sentences, which are simply "thoughts". Words are the medium of thought.

What is the thought being expressed?

That is the pre-eminent consideration to me.

I would note that what I refer to in the OP(not as an authority, but as a topical consideration) is that we want to understand the Hebrew "mind-set" and in many instances it is fairly flexible with specifics and meanings resting perhaps more heavily on context than certain word studies allow.

[greg]

I would recommend that you don't choose between the English definitions "any" and "all".  In reality, the Hebrew doesn't force you to choose (respectfully, it doesn't even allow you to choose), because in Hebrew כל means "any" in a state of perspective to the observer – so it inherently means "any" in as much a full sense ("all") as a limited sense ("any").   It is humble; it is perspective-driven.  Indeed, if you can, just say כל in your mind – don't translate it.

In English thought, we have unfortunately defined/divided the word "any" in/to a limited sense.  But in Hebrew, the word כל ("any") is not so limited – it encompasses a full spectrum of possibility.

As you appreciate that full spectrum, I think you'll enjoy this – skim the 280 occurrences of כל in Strong's Concordance 3605.

Notice how every single one of those entries makes perfect sense with the full spectrum כל ("any"), but if a translator tries to translate as "all" consistently, then many of his translations would make no sense and would actually be hilariously illogical.  That is because "any" is the literal root definition of the word כל, not "all".

And this translation phenomenon is the same with עלמ ("world/age").  In every single instance the most literal translation ("world/age") makes perfect sense.  But once translators start to feel challenged/limited in their theology, they deviate from the literal text by claiming עלמ means "forever" in certain instances they choose themselves, which of course results in countless illogical translations in other instances.  So they simply launch into private apologetics about the supposed 'intent' of the speaker, or the greater meaning revealed to them privately in spirit, and so on.   

I should also add that this debate about 'English translation division' v. 'original definition unity' is not just an intellectual matter of semantics.  The 'translation division' problem is precisely how the false doctrine of 'everlasting' hell got started and keeps traction even to this very day.

We must learn from that lesson.  We must learn to keep words attached to their root.  John 15:5, "I am the vine, and you are the branches; he who abides with me and I in him, this one brings forth much fruit, because without me, you are not able to produce anything."

Ultimately, those who respect every yod and stroke of the Messiah's words are striving to be law-abiding to Him at heart.

[eaglesway]

The purpose of the site is to communicate the truth of the salvation of all, including any, not to establish a particular opinion of what every "yod" of YHWH's word is- according to one person's opinion.

This purpose will not change, and the site is moderated according to that purpose. I believe you are incorrect on this issue, and I have no good reason to heed your recommendation.

I am certain that YHWH's purpose is too redeem all, and He "causes all(and anything, if you like) things to work according to the counsel of His will". We are communicating with English speaking people, in English, according to what what we believe is correct, and our belief is not without study and assurance.

[greg]

Now wait just one minute, are you suggesting you don't want to argue about this?? -- literally, the very title of this thread was inviting us to have "another Argument for the Hebrew mindset of the scriptures"

Or would you have me believe you intended a less literal thread title?!   :laughing7:

Seriously though, in the Hebrew language, the way to say "all men will be saved" is to say literally, "All men will be saved, and not one will be lost".  As we both know, a clear statement from that Hebrew mindset is not in the literal text.  That's why the text means literally "any man will be saved".   

In my opinion, that's Hebrew 101.  The decision is with אלהא whom to save.  If He wants to save everyone, He shall.  But the literal text does not require it.

Indeed, there are countless verses describing the destruction of the lost, and that the spirit returns to Yahweh.  I like this one in particular, "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to אלהימ who gave it."  Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Psalm 104:29, "You hide Your face – they are troubled.  You gather their spirit – they expire.  And unto their dust they turn back."

[eaglesway]

I was perfectly willing to argue it- so I did. Am I willing to go on into repetitious debate territory?

Nah.

The OP was about the Hebrew mindset. I am not interested in discussing the minutae of one man's opinion about one word- an opinion which you have fully stated at this point, and I have stated my differences with your understanding.

There is no need to go on, I am not interested in debate at that level.

[Caffus]

I believe that God is a very personal God and able and willing to deal with each of us in a personal way. I also do not think He would allow suffering that does not have greater benefits than the pain. So, if repentance, change and acceptance of Truth has come to a person, I would think at that point their punishment would be done with...that it wouldn't have to be for a whole age  for everyone who did not believe before death ect. Not sure if scripture allows for these beliefs or not.  :dunno2:

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:

I think they do.

For all who have sinned [f]without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having

• the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Rom 2
  
  
  

[marie glen]

I believe that God is a very personal God and able and willing to deal with each of us in a personal way. I also do not think He would allow suffering that does not have greater benefits than the pain. So, if repentance, change and acceptance of Truth has come to a person, I would think at that point their punishment would be done with...that it wouldn't have to be for a whole age  for everyone who did not believe before death ect. Not sure if scripture allows for these beliefs or not.  :dunno2:

..I think the scriptures do too. By the verses EW quoted..

..And also by logic.. I've been hearing a lot about the evils of a new teaching called contemplative prayer, so I have to come up with a new phrase.. but prayerful contemplation and study makes me think surely our heavenly Father will make lots of good use of the great judgment..? I think traditionally it seems like judgment day, the great white throne judgment occurs in but a moment.. Well, some folks I think, think of it as occurring, each one at their death, by their going to either heaven or 'hell'.. But that of course sounds way illogical to me, and I don't think scripture backs it up.

So there all unbelievers are (all those not yet saved, who rose still in their sins/imperfection/"missing the mark") all in rapt attention before God's throne.. It seems to me a good opportunity to make the most of it. Is there a verse about the angels and the saved being witnesses to that day?  :Chinscratch: hmmm, can't remember.. But it seems like the absolute opportune time to really pound home (to all) the message and lesson (of good from evil?) ..a great day of review as to all mankind and angelic history..

Then of course (which I have a tendency to rant on about) i believe the ancient fall holy days are a shadow and pattern of our Lord's long 2nd advent (because it appears the Spring ones were a shadow and pattern of His first one). Making day of judgment (2nd peak) to be day of atonement, which was a collective day of repentance and reconciliation.. Lev 23:26-32 (I rant on about it, because I feel this pattern really nails, and is a proof of U.R. and also of His mercy - I'm in agreement with what you said, "I believe that God is a very personal God and able and willing to deal with each of us in a personal way. I also do not think He would allow suffering that does not have greater benefits than the pain. So, if repentance, change and acceptance of Truth has come to a person, I would think at that point their punishment would be done with...that it wouldn't have to be for a whole age  for everyone who did not believe before death ect.")

[Caffus]

 :dsunny: I think many Protestants believe that God judges us all at once and throws most into hell, forever.   Maybe, because of the passage about separating the sheep from the goats. I used to think that to its very sad and impersonal. I don't understand hat passage completely, but I do know my Savior. I also know scripture says each one will be judged according to their works and what was hidden will be made known extra. It also says  their is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. I know He is personal, just and fair and He will make all things right.Not, sure of everything our Father will do, but I know this that I'm loved and I have nothing to fear.

[marie glen]

Amen!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

(I tend to think of the separating of sheep and goats as the gathering to armageddon and the gathering of the elect very shortly later, at His return.. just a :2c: worth :smile: )