Interpretation of the Unpardonable Sin

[Graph1159]

In the UR community, the most common interpretation of the "unpardonable sin" (Mark 3:29), seems to be that, while blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven in this age, or the age to come, it will eventually be forgiven in the fullness of time. I think that interpretation is definitely a possibility, although to me it feels like a bit of a stretch, and there is another way I have come to interpret the passage that seems to fit well with other Scriptural themes.

My view is that the term "forgiveness" refers to the type of forgiveness that was active in the Old Covenant (and might, in certain aspects, still be active today - more on that later). Forgiveness under the Old Covenant was conditional and dependent on sacrifices and repentance manifest through works. John the Baptist told the Pharisees that they had to produce fruit of repentance before he could baptize them (Matt. 3:7-8), and John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4).

Regarding Gentiles, Paul wrote that "when Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all." (Rom. 2:14-16).

Obviously, all have sinned, so nobody completely does what the Law requires. But I think Paul's is saying that, those who tried their best to orient their lives according to their God-given conscience, may be forgiven of their sins by the blood of Christ on Judgment Day and spared from the judgment that will come upon those who spent their lives pursuing evil. I think that this type of forgiveness might also apply to those who are outside of the Christian faith (possibly due to erroneous portrayals of Christ by Christians) but are living according to their conscience as best as they know how (maybe, just maybe, this is why Jesus said that those who blaspheme Him could be forgiven but those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit could not). But again, this is a works-based forgiveness.

I think that the type of forgiveness described in Romans 2 and the pre-Crucifixtion writings is a type of forgiveness that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit cannot experience, ever. However, forgiveness based on the finished work of Christ covers all sin, for all people. This is the type of forgiveness that those who believe in Christ and His finished work experience right now.

Romans 5:18 - "Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all."

I believe this justification is the type of forgiveness that will be experienced by everybody in the fullness of time.

What do you think about all of this?

Samuel

[eaglesway]

I don't think Jesus, the author of the new covenant, was ever speaking in terms of old covenant forgiveness. That's just my opinion.

I think what Jesus was saying was similar to John's writing in his epistle.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 1 Jn 5:16

Which is another difficult passage. As is this one.....

"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."John 20:33

There are certain sins that can only be cleared through repentance. The person who has committed such a sin must be brought into judgment and acknowledge their responsibility.

There are certain sins, that when we see a brother or a sister committing them we can pray for them, and God will intervene and return grace and life into that persons life- hopefully and eventually leading to victory over that sin, be it habit(addiction, fornication), practice(lying, greed), etc.

There are sins such as adultery, murder, pedophilia, that no one can just remit or intercede for. The only acceptable intercession is for the person to repent and be converted.

I think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is like this. Jesus was giving a warning of the intensely serious consequences of being in the presence of a miracle of God and calling it a work of the devil. I think it is a very unique sin and level of sinfulness to do this, and Jesus treated it as such.

I do not think anything else(wrong doctrine, heresy, worldliness, secularism, etc) fits in the same category of this sin, and I think you would have to see such a miraculous act of God in the flesh with your own eyes in order to commit it.....and even so, Jesus was warning them-so it must take some persistence in such a level of sin to "cross the line" into that special category of judgment which I see as simply this...

You will have to go before the Great White Throne, at the end of the next age, to be dealt with over it. Then and only then can such a one receive release and reconciliation, and I think that is because to blaspheme the Holy Spirit repeatedly causes an extreme hardening of the heart..

It is allowing for a lesser explanation of this sin that we hav people running around all over the place in fear that at some point they committed an unforgivable sin and are destined to eternal torment.

So anyway, those are my thoughts on it ;o)

[micah7:9]

This is just a question, IF there is an unpardonable sin, how can Jesus be Saviour of all?

[eaglesway]

Big if. But there is definitely no INFINITELY UNPARDONABLE SIN, and Jesus never indicates that there is. There is a sin that is unforgiveable in this age or the one to come- imo, if persisted in- which means (to me) it will be dealt with in the lake of fire, as per Rev 14, Rev 20- to be purged with the adversaries.

Thats my opinion ;o)

[micah7:9]

Big if. But there is definitely no INFINITELY UNPARDONABLE SIN, and Jesus never indicates that there is. There is a sin that is unforgiveable in this age or the one to come- imo, if persisted in- which means (to me) it will be dealt with in the lake of fire, as per Rev 14, Rev 20- to be purged with the adversaries.

Thats my opinion ;o)

:iagree: :dsunny:

[joeteekay]

Big if. But there is definitely no INFINITELY UNPARDONABLE SIN, and Jesus never indicates that there is. There is a sin that is unforgiveable in this age or the one to come- imo, if persisted in- which means (to me) it will be dealt with in the lake of fire, as per Rev 14, Rev 20- to be purged with the adversaries.

Thats my opinion ;o)

Much said in this post by EW. 100% in line with Sacred Scripture.  :banana:

[Ross]

1 Tim 1;13 " Even though I was formerly a blasphemer, persecutor, and an insolent person, but I was shown mercy since, being
                   ignorant, I had acted in unbelief."
vs 14 " And the grace of our Lord COMPLETELY overflowed for me with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

vs 15 " Trustworthy is the saying and worthy of complete acceptance,
                               'Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,'
                of whom I am the foremost."
Seems to cover heaps.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Big if. But there is definitely no INFINITELY UNPARDONABLE SIN, and Jesus never indicates that there is. There is a sin that is unforgiveable in this age or the one to come-

   :iagree: :iagree:

[Graph1159]

Thank you all for your replies and thoughtful discussion!

There are certain sins, that when we see a brother or a sister committing them we can pray for them, and God will intervene and return grace and life into that persons life- hopefully and eventually leading to victory over that sin, be it habit(addiction, fornication), practice(lying, greed), etc.

There are sins such as adultery, murder, pedophilia, that no one can just remit or intercede for. The only acceptable intercession is for the person to repent and be converted.

This is interesting; I've never seen this view expressed before. When you have time, could you post more information and Scriptures that lead to this conclusion?

[eaglesway]

Sure. Have written about it a lil more in depth, if I can find the posts LOL.

[eaglesway]

I'll just wing it I guess.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 1 Jn 5:16

My thoughts on this are from several scriptural sources, one being the Old Testament.

Sins like witchcraft, sorcery, incest, adultery, premeditated murder were death penalty offenses(sins unto death) in Israel.

Deuteronomy 22
22 "If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die--the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.

Some sins were not.

Exodus 22:16-17
16 "If a man ENTICES a virgin who is NOT BETROTHED (engaged), and lies with her, he shall surely PAY the bride-price for her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall PAY MONEY according to the bride-price of virgins.

If a young man lay with a maid unmarried(fornication), depending on the circumstances, he might get to marry her, he might have to pay a price to her father- it was not a "sin unto death".

If a man was to steal, he would have to repay with a penalty, as much as 5 times the value of his theft.... not a "sin unto death".

This difference is what I think John was speaking of .

All sin is a violation of our relationship with God or with man, but...

If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Some folks would disagree with me about this but, if we are not sinning occasionally we do not need..."the blood of Jesus His Son cleans(ing) us from all sin". But James says "We all stumble in many ways"Jam 3:2. He also says,"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed."James 5:16

So these are some of the verses from which I draw my view on this.

"If you find a brother in a fault restore such a one in a spirit of meekness considering your own self(pride, judgment) lest you become ensnared"..... we all stumble in many ways... better to pray for one another than to judge one another.

[Graph1159]

Thank you Eaglesway! That post was very thought provoking, and the Old Testament parallel is an insightful connection.

[CHB]

Just my thoughts on the unpardonable sin.

I believe the unpardonable sin only applied in the time of Jesus.

(Matt. 12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in THIS AGE, {the age then} neither in the age to come {our age}.

Reason being, the age they were living in Jesus hadn't died for their sins. In this age those who sinned against the Holy Spirit are still in their graves, so they cannot be forgiven in this age either but the next age will be a different story because God will be all in all.

Just the way I see this.

CHB

[Ross]

Pretty good little logic there. :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Yet, Jesus said, "In this age or the one to come".... :dontknow:

[Ross]

There seems to be a few to come yet. Great white throne seems to be one of those major correction ages.

[CHB]

Yet, Jesus said, "In this age or the one to come".... :dontknow:

Yes, the one Jesus lived in and the one we now live in. When Jesus said "this age" I think he was speaking about the one he was living in. That age ended in 70AD. The one to come was after the one he was living in I presume. My thought is, the age to come is still going on till Jesus comes back. I think there are more ages to come.

CHB

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: yep, that deep habitual hardening of the heart to the degree of intentional blasphemy/hatred of the Holy Spirit of God, is unable to be forgiven.. until it is consumed away from the heart.. (whether by the great light of His perfect purity and holiness or by trial, sorrow, even consuming hatred, burning shame, etc. or a literal lake of fire, age-during) imo..

[rosered]

Just my thoughts on the unpardonable sin.

I believe the unpardonable sin only applied in the time of Jesus.

(Matt. 12:32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in THIS AGE, {the age then} neither in the age to come {our age}.

Reason being, the age they were living in Jesus hadn't died for their sins. In this age those who sinned against the Holy Spirit are still in their graves, so they cannot be forgiven in this age either but the next age will be a different story because God will be all in all.

Just the way I see this.

CHB

To be carnally minded is DEATH    , SO DEATH REIGNS ......   even the new born  babes in Christ are  still carnally minded    , yet their sins are forgiven them   FOR HIS NAMES SAKE !   what grace to save !!!   while we were yet sinners   Christ died for us ,,,


    The age/duration  of darkness ?    THE hour of darkness  is the betrayal of the LORD JESUS CHRIST He is the true God and eternal life. !! 

This world and  carnal  ''animal like '' life lies in death , it is the tree of knowledge of good and evil  that all have eat of   and are dead , in Adam all die !! only in Christ raised up out of death can we live a new life ..

But men loved  the darkness more than the LIGHT    Because their deeds / works are EVIL    and of   their father     the devil    these works    ol satan  whom is earthly sensual and devilish  and self serving ..

  The LIGHT HAS COME !!  come into the Light  and be exposed before the eyes of God !   

    John 3 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.



   LUKE 22 New International Version
Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour--when darkness reigns."

New Living Translation
Why didn't you arrest me in the Temple? I was there every day. But this is your moment, the time when the power of darkness reigns."

English Standard Version
When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness."

Berean Study Bible
Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on Me. But this hour belongs to you and to the power of darkness."

Berean Literal Bible
Every day of Me being with you in the temple, you did not stretch out the hands against Me; but this is your hour, and the power of the darkness."

New American Standard Bible
"While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

King James Bible
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Every day while I was with you in the temple complex, you never laid a hand on Me. But this is your hour--and the dominion of darkness."


  REV 3 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.


1 JOHN 5  18We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one cannot touch him.

19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding,

so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life....

  TO   remain in the dark  [AGE ]   is not forgiven , because the AGE TO COME IS THE LIGHT OF DAY !!!    and children of the day are born of GOD though Jesus Christ are are   called the   sons of God ....  as the grace of God  does the works    by the HOLY SPIRIT  in us   and we rest in HOPE    ,    there is NO REST    for the wicked !

[eaglesway]

In my view it very simple. This is a sin that will not be overlooked in the Day.

"And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled." Acts 3

"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you."

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

There are many sins God has, does and will overlook.

The person who has comitted this sin will stand before God for it and the recompense will be what it is- I don't exactly know and neither does anyone else.

Jesus CLEARLY distinguished this sin from the "all manner of sins and blasphemies" that can be forgiven men in this age and the nest, and this sin, which will not be dealt with until "on the Day wehen God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ"

Everyone who is walking in darkness is not committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Everyone who is walking in error is not committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Whatever that is, and that is open to debate - it is definitely not carnality in general by worldings or misled believers.

have you ever seen a miracle? to see miracles of divine healing and deliverance, blind eyes opened and leprosy cleansed, as well as the dead raise and to attribute it to the power of Satan- that is a special kind of hardness and self righteousness. I like the way marie glenn put it.

yep, that deep habitual hardening of the heart to the degree of intentional blasphemy/hatred of the Holy Spirit of God, is unable to be forgiven.. until it is consumed away from the heart.. (whether by the great light of His perfect purity and holiness or by trial, sorrow, even consuming hatred, burning shame, etc. or a literal lake of fire, age-during) imo..

To me that describes the recompense of it, in principle(who knows the details?- no one :o), perfectly.

[rosered]

  I do believe they will know and be ashamed   that they missed out  in the here and now  !!   that to me is the error /sin

because you say you SEE   YOUR SIN REMAINS!  JOHN 9 40Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, "Are we blind too?" 41"If you were blind, Jesus replied, "you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see,' your guilt remains."

UNDER THE LAW   guilty  before GOD   ROMANS 3 There is No One Righteous
...18there is no fear of God before their eyes."


19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law,

so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin....    Those whom are wise in their own eyes are  using the law to destroy others and NOT using the law lawfully  to awaken to righteousness  and acknowledging their  own sin! but exalt them selves above God and all that is called God   2 Thess 2
The Man of Lawlessness
...3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?...


  WHAT IS BLASPHEMING THE HOLY SPIRIT  BUT     proclaiming   oneself to be God !!  ....  CALLING EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL  ...........  Jesus Christ Himself never ever exalted Himself   but continued to give the glory to the Father..

     ISAIAH 5 Woes and Judgments
8 Woe to you who add house to house
    and join field to field
till no space is left
    and you live alone in the land.
9 The Lord Almighty has declared in my hearing:

"Surely the great houses will become desolate,
    the fine mansions left without occupants.
10 A ten-acre vineyard will produce only a bath[a] of wine;
    a homer of seed will yield only an ephah[c] of grain."
11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning
    to run after their drinks,
who stay up late at night
    till they are inflamed with wine.
12 They have harps and lyres at their banquets,
    pipes and timbrels and wine,
but they have no regard for the deeds of the Lord,
    no respect for the work of his hands.
13 Therefore my people will go into exile
    for lack of understanding;
those of high rank will die of hunger
    and the common people will be parched with thirst.
14 Therefore Death expands its jaws,
    opening wide its mouth;
into it will descend their nobles and masses
    with all their brawlers and revelers.
15 So people will be brought low
    and everyone humbled,
    the eyes of the arrogant humbled.
16 But the Lord Almighty will be exalted by his justice,
    and the holy God will be proved holy by his righteous acts.
17 Then sheep will graze as in their own pasture;
    lambs will feed[d] among the ruins of the rich.
18 Woe to those who draw sin along with cords of deceit,
    and wickedness as with cart ropes,
19 to those who say, "Let God hurry;
    let him hasten his work
    so we may see it.
The plan of the Holy One of Israel—
    let it approach, let it come into view,
    so we may know it."
20 Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
who put darkness for light
    and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
    and clever in their own sight.
22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
    and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
    but deny justice to the innocent.
24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw
    and as dry grass sinks down in the flames,
so their roots will decay
    and their flowers blow away like dust;
for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty
    and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore the Lord's anger burns against his people;
    his hand is raised and he strikes them down.
The mountains shake,
    and the dead bodies are like refuse in the streets.
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
    his hand is still upraised.
26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations,
    he whistles for those at the ends of the earth.
Here they come,
    swiftly and speedily!
27 Not one of them grows tired or stumbles,
    not one slumbers or sleeps;
not a belt is loosened at the waist,
    not a sandal strap is broken.
28 Their arrows are sharp,
    all their bows are strung;
their horses' hooves seem like flint,
    their chariot wheels like a whirlwind.
29 Their roar is like that of the lion,
    they roar like young lions;
they growl as they seize their prey
    and carry it off with no one to rescue.
30 In that day they will roar over it
    like the roaring of the sea.
And if one looks at the land,
    there is only darkness and distress;
    even the sun will be darkened by clouds.

  the Holy Spirit of Truth is the true teacher when you reject  HIS WISDOM you have nothing   in this time of darkness or in the light  but to expose the shame 

[eaglesway]

 

I do believe they will know and be ashamed   that they missed out  in the here and now  !!   that to me is the error /sin

yes, there is error and sin in that, but the thread is about "Interpretation fo the unpardonable sin". So I am not sure I get exactly what you are saying.

I think I agree with you in general terms, but as far as interpreting the unpardonable sin, I would disagree with what you are saying, unless we are talking about two different things. I am not talking about sin in general. The thread is focused on the unpardonable sin.

Everyone who has missed the mark has not committed the unpardonable sin. Every sin is not included in that category. There are measures/degrees/levels of sin. IMO at least four are defined in the scriptures. Sins of ignorance; sins not unto death; sins unto death; blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin that does not lead to death"

[rosered]

I do believe they will know and be ashamed   that they missed out  in the here and now  !!   that to me is the error /sin

yes, there is error and sin in that, but the thread is about "Interpretation fo the unpardonable sin". So I am not sure I get exactly what you are saying.

I think I agree with you in general terms, but as far as interpreting the unpardonable sin, I would disagree with what you are saying, unless we are talking about two different things. I am not talking about sin in general. The thread is focused on the unpardonable sin.

Everyone who has missed the mark has not committed the unpardonable sin. Every sin is not included in that category. There are measures/degrees/levels of sin. IMO at least four are defined in the scriptures. Sins of ignorance; sins not unto death; sins unto death; blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin that does not lead to death"

  Thank you John ,,

You have explained it well !

  Apparently there are   worse things than death   than  :sigh:

  what is the unpardonable sin according to the scriptures ?  It seems to be the lake of fire .?

For me to  closest thing is found in Hebrews 6 and it is wilful sinning ,  under the  age of  law /repentance and  age of  grace /  Jesus Christ righteousness  in mercy    this  to me shows  them being UNTEACHABLE ....    because the SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS our teacher and   comforter   and is with them the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

6 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits.
  the law of moses

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

For me this is the  age of  grace


6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Also  in Hebrews 10  25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume all adversaries....

Again  we do not know   exactly , but this has been an eye opener    and  learning experience  to say the least ..

[eaglesway]

I am not sure what the nature of the process is. I dont claim to :o)

I am pretty sure the scriptures indicate it will be difficult, but effective!

And why shouldnt it be.

Sometimes we forget that with all God's mercy he does discipline us as children, and  that is difficult for us- and He makes it so to purge and purify us.

"Every sacrifice will be salted with fire".

So for those who have been adversarial in the extreme- the predatory wicked, etc. I believe the light will hurt their eyes. After all that darkness, they will be face to face with pure unadulterated light. When the eyes of their hearts are confonted with the glory of God then the "worm" will gnash its teeth as every hidden thing is brought to light, until they turn, in their hearts, and embrace the overwhelmingsuperiority and grace of His love.

To me the point is not torment, it is brokeness.

Watchman Nee wrote, in his book "The Release of the Spirit"...

"From the moment a person comes to Jesus Christ the purpose of God in their life is the breaking of the outward man so that the inward man will be released".

Thus we endure fiery trials so that we can begin to reflect the image of Jesus Christ and He can flow out of us.

If God wants to give everyone else but us a free pass on the Day- I personally have no problem with that idea......

I just don't think that is what the scriptures say. The testimony of our Lord is that it would be better to "get it over with" in this life :o)

Cut off that offending member now, rather than having it removed in Gehenna.