absolute proof?

[ask21771]

is there 100% proof hell isn't real

[bushy]

Hades is real but it's not a fiery torture pit. It's the grave where all of us go when we die. The word Hell should never be in the bible.

[Lazarus Short]

I spent more than a year reading and analyzing the KJV, as recorded in my thread "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No."  Absolute proof will need to wait until we die, but I am 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% certain that there is no Hell (or "jell").

There's always room for Hell-O!  :LH:

[Ross]

Hell used to refer to being six foot under.
Then got mixed in with mans' attempts at defining creation and God.
Was also working on the fear factor to control peoples' behaviour.
The Greeks, Egyptians, and Romans are the major influences on todays beliefs. The Jews were isolated and given correct information of creation. The others tried to out-do them. History of "my argument is better than yours' is prolific.

[ask21771]

i'm still scared of going to hell

[Lazarus Short]

i'm still scared of going to hell

There is no need to be scared.  Here is your first clue to freedom from fear:  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  (Genesis 1:1)  The creation of Hell is not mentioned.  Nothing, NOTHING in the rest of the book says otherwise, if you dig under the surface of the translation, esp. the KJV.  I could not even find a connection between the Devil and Hell in my KJV.  As the song says, there's only Heaven...so why worry?

Hell is a matter of belief, mental programming, brainwashing, or in other words, it is a Spiritual Stronghold.  Escape may take prayer and fasting, but escape is very possible.

[eaglesway]

Hell does not exist. It is a myth of Norse origins. It was inserted into the scriptures in the 1500s by the King James Version translators.

Hades does not exist. It is a myth of Greek origin. They used their myth word to replace the Hebrew word "sheol"(grave) when they translated the scriptures to Greek.

"Sheol" is a Hebrew word from the scriptures. It is real, but the nature of sheol is unknown, because no one knows for sure what will happen after death.

Between "hades"(Septuagint, the Greek translation) and "hell"(KJV English translation) there was "inferno"(Latin vulgate, Roman translation). That was the Latin word for the Roman myth of the afterlife.

The mythical Hades was ruled by the Greek god Hades. The mythical Inferno was ruled by the Roman god Pluto. The mythical Hell was ruled by the Norse god Hela.

None of those words ever had any origins in the scripture.

The lake of fire is not Hell. It is a metaphor for the way in which God will bring adversaries to their kness in the age to come, and I believe it refers to being immersed in His light, which is fire to darkness.

Jesus said, "Every hidden thing will be brought to light" and the apsotle John said of Jesus, "His eyes are as flames of fire and His face is as the sun shining in its strength". Paul called the gospel "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ'(2 Cor 4)

The lake of fire is called the second death. Whatever it is, it does not last for ever because Paul tells us that death will be destroyed(1 Cor 15:23-28) and that God will become "all in all".

Gehenna is not "Hell". IMO, Gehenna is a metaphor for how God deals with the garbage in our lives, putting us in places that are uncomfortable until we turn to Him.

Whatever Gehenna and the lake of fire represent, they do not last forever because Paul says,

"For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross, things I say, whether in heaven or in earth." Colossians 1:20

Also

"Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" Phillipians 2:10,11

And

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:25-28

And

In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 1with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Ephesians 1:9,10

There is no Hell.

There is no "eternal torment".

If Jesus is your Savior and Lord you have the forgiveness of your sins.

If not, you will eventually kneel before Him and recieve mercy.

Everyone will be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, His blood was sufficient to pay for the sins of all who ever lived.

Of all this I am 100 per cent certain. There is no doubt.

[Ross]

Romans 8;38,39 " For I am convinced that neither death, nor life,
                           nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come,
                           nor powers, nor height, nor depth,
                           NOR ANY OTHER CREATED THING,
                           will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[GodIsLove]

Hell does not exist. It is a myth of Norse origins. It was inserted into the scriptures in the 1500s by the King James Version translators.

Hades does not exist. It is a myth of Greek origin. They used their myth word to replace the Hebrew word "sheol"(grave) when they translated the scriptures to Greek.

"Sheol" is a Hebrew word from the scriptures. It is real, but the nature of sheol is unknown, because no one knows for sure what will happen after death.

Between "hades"(Septuagint, the Greek translation) and "hell"(KJV English translation) there was "inferno"(Latin vulgate, Roman translation). That was the Latin word for the Roman myth of the afterlife.

The mythical Hades was ruled by the Greek god Hades. The mythical Inferno was ruled by the Roman god Pluto. The mythical Hell was ruled by the Norse god Hela.

None of those words ever had any origins in the scripture.

The lake of fire is not Hell. It is a metaphor for the way in which God will bring adversaries to their kness in the age to come, and I believe it refers to being immersed in His light, which is fire to darkness.

Jesus said, "Every hidden thing will be brought to light" and the apsotle John said of Jesus, "His eyes are as flames of fire and His face is as the sun shining in its strength". Paul called the gospel "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ'(2 Cor 4)

The lake of fire is called the second death. Whatever it is, it does not last for ever because Paul tells us that death will be destroyed(1 Cor 15:23-28) and that God will become "all in all".

Gehenna is not "Hell". IMO, Gehenna is a metaphor for how God deals with the garbage in our lives, putting us in places that are uncomfortable until we turn to Him.

Whatever Gehenna and the lake of fire represent, they do not last forever because Paul says,

"For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross, things I say, whether in heaven or in earth." Colossians 1:20

Also

"Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" Phillipians 2:10,11

And

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:25-28

And

In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 1with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the gathering together into one of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Ephesians 1:9,10

There is no Hell.

There is no "eternal torment".

If Jesus is your Savior and Lord you have the forgiveness of your sins.

If not, you will eventually kneel before Him and recieve mercy.

Everyone will be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, His blood was sufficient to pay for the sins of all who ever lived.

Of all this I am 100 per cent certain. There is no doubt.

:thumbsup:

:banana: :banana: :banana:

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

[joeteekay]

Thank you EW. Very well written and comprehensive.
Joe   :banana:

[jabcat]

 :goodpost:

[ask21771]

what about this http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rejectuniversalism.htm

[darryl]

i'm still scared of going to hell

hell ?...you mean eternal never ending conscious punishment in hell ?...that is, unceasing perpetual torment administered by God without any mercy or pity at all, without any end to it, forever ? ..such a concept is incomprehensibly awful and terrifying in the extreme, not to mention monstrous..my advice is, try and focus on the Bible verses and word meanings ( such as 'aion'/ 'aionios' ) that mitigate against this idea of 'eternal punishment/ torment in hell'...and above all, pray to Jesus, draw closer to Him, know Him, His sweetness mercy and love...God's essence is LOVE...not hate :dsunny:

[ask21771]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rejectuniversalism.htm well?

[Ross]

When any contract is written the first points made are the terms used in the contract.
The push for eternal punishment depends on the definition of the term- Ages [Aionian]
Under the hell-fire doctrines the term is defined as literally never-ending.
Under the correct definition the term is a fixed period of time known only to God as to the length.
We have examples of this in our history where the historians say;
         the Iron age, The bronze age, the Ice age.....

So many doctrinal problems arise when making chronological errors.
Prime example is like when going to see a movie set in the Roman age, and there is a man with a digital watch on his wrist.

Then there is the term judgment;
we have this in our court system where the process of conviction has to lay the crime, prove the guilt and then pass the sentence accordingly. Varying levels of correction. The greatest punishment is death.
Ironically the wages of sin is death. Not eternal separation.

Then Christ came to give us life with more authority than death since the creator is greater than everything else that tries to undermine His authority.
" As in Adam ALL die so In Christ will ALL be made live, but each in his own turn."
The "Gift" of God is life; and this life is In Christ Jesus.
No man comes to the Father except through Me.
Many will say I am Lord yet I never knew them.

Then the term mystery.
Paul specifically refers to the mystery which had been hidden for ages till Christ had been first to be resurrected, so that He could be first in everything.
How would a loving God hide this information from man and then accuse man of being stupid?
Can the pot say to the potter this is why I have been made?
God has handed them over to disobedience so that He can have mercy on ALL.
O the depth of the riches and the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord or been His counsellor?
Or who has given to God so that God must pay him back?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things.
To Him be the glory for ALL time!
Amen!

Hence,
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect


This is love;  not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
God is love! Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
By this love is fully realised among us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment, because just as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment. So the one who fears has not been perfected in love. We love because He first loved us.

For me, love conquers all. Working on God's example/definition of love- not ours.
Amazing how many vow to love then break those vows. God does not break any of His vows/promises.
The gift of God is life.
Christ came so that we would have life and MORE abundantly.
He did not fail.

[darryl]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rejectuniversalism.htm well?

hmmm, interesting....may I attempt to answer some of these objections to UR ?
your writer says : This Is Why The Texts For Universalism Have ALL Been MISUSED

Tormented Day and Night For Ever and Ever

2. Revelation chapter 20 is one of the most stirring chapters in the Bible. In it we read:
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev. 20:10).
Since the beast and the false prophet are real people, it is apparent there is no salvation for them since they are with the devil to be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Again, it is evident that universalism is fatally flawed, but there is much more Biblical evidence.

please note..the phrase in Rev. 20 : 10 is 'unto the ages of the ages'...it doesn't say 'forever and ever'...

in my view these 'Ages of the Ages' are the penultimate Ages (corresponding to the Holies of the Holies in the Temple ) when God brings His plan of Universal Restoration to fruition...

i.e. these 2 beings will be corrected/ chastized only into  the 'Ages of the Ages'...not for all eternity...

you cannot make the phrase 'ages of the ages' mean 'forever and ever' when it plainly does not mean 'forever and ever'....to do so is to add to the Book of Revelation a meaning it does not have..and, as we know, there is a strict warning about adding to the Book of Revelation.

[eaglesway]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rejectuniversalism.htm well?

hmmm, interesting....may I attempt to answer some of these objections to UR ?
your writer says : This Is Why The Texts For Universalism Have ALL Been MISUSED

Tormented Day and Night For Ever and Ever

2. Revelation chapter 20 is one of the most stirring chapters in the Bible. In it we read:
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev. 20:10).
Since the beast and the false prophet are real people, it is apparent there is no salvation for them since they are with the devil to be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Again, it is evident that universalism is fatally flawed, but there is much more Biblical evidence.

please note..the phrase in Rev. 20 : 10 is 'unto the ages of the ages'...it doesn't say 'forever and ever'...

in my view these 'Ages of the Ages' are the penultimate Ages (corresponding to the Holies of the Holies in the Temple ) when God brings His plan of Universal Restoration to fruition...

i.e. these 2 beings will be corrected/ chastized only into  the 'Ages of the Ages'...not for all eternity...

you cannot make the phrase 'ages of the ages' mean 'forever and ever' when it plainly does not mean 'forever and ever'....to do so is to add to the Book of Revelation a meaning it does not have..and, as we know, there is a strict warning about adding to the Book of Revelation.

:thumbsup:

[darryl]

is there 100% proof jell isn't real

jell ?..u mean jell-o ?..sure it's real..used to love it when I was a kid !..my Mom would serve it every Saturday nite...hehee  :laughing7:

[ask21771]

does the bible say anything about people hearing the damned screaming from hell

[darryl]

does the bible say anything about people hearing the damned screaming from hell

dunno...does it ?.. :dontknow:

[darryl]

does the bible say anything about people hearing the damned screaming from hell

wasnt there a recording made of that by some Russians in Siberia or someplace ?  :eek:...turned out to be a hoax  :banana: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

i'm still scared of going to hell

There is no need to be scared.  Here is your first clue to freedom from fear:  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  (Genesis 1:1)  The creation of Hell is not mentioned.  Nothing, NOTHING in the rest of the book says otherwise, if you dig under the surface of the translation, esp. the KJV.  I could not even find a connection between the Devil and Hell in my KJV.  As the song says, there's only Heaven...so why worry?

Hell is a matter of belief, mental programming, brainwashing, or in other words, it is a Spiritual Stronghold.  Escape may take prayer and fasting, but escape is very possible.

I highly recommend reading Lazarus Short's thread "heaven yes, hell no" - linked above in Laz's earlier post..

It was very good. The main thing to my mind, it supported is the (so very true) idea, that if there were 'hell' as the myth goes, surely, it being such a horrific thing, God the Father would have warned against it from the get go. Surely! ...No ? about it..! (Imo :smile: ) And so on throughout every book, speaker and author of the Bible (inspired by God - who is love) ...no pleading with mankind to avoid eternal torture..

Besides, God is perfect. Surely? Or He too would fade.. Even if we don't believe that (His fading if imperfect) surely He has to be perfect?! Imo. :gsmile: Perfect makes no mistakes, can lose nothing. (Let alone 3/4's of the human family.) Surely the 'end' result of all this - letting the ability to make choices run its course (resulting in imperfection, the opposite of Life/God) - surely the 'end' result can only be the utter best one possible? :gsmile:

here's the link to an image i drew to express some of the things I believe I have learned after some serious prayer and some after joining tentmaker forums.. click on the 2nd image - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html

I recently did some additional research and figure I discovered quite a bit.. was reviewing and looking for the roots of the hell myth.. I forget it so easily! In Babylonian myth Inanna went to the underworld, but I have forgotten (already!) how the story goes.. Egypt had elaborate levels.. It's believed much of the Greek underworld.. River Styx, etc is borrowed somewhat from the Egyptian.. It makes sense to me it (and other things) spread out from Babel Tower, with both differences and likenesses in the different myths, stories, legends..

But something new I learned (from more than one source) - I'll simply copy/paste -

""The first adoption of the pagan beliefs by a Christian writer was in the Apocalypse of Peter, probably written between 125 and 150 CE that remained in various church lists as a canonical text for centuries. It contains what the author claimed were the words of Yeshua as he instructed Peter after the resurrection about the signs of the end times. It also contains a variety of punishments awaiting sinners in hell and the pleasures of heaven. The descriptions clearly came from Homer, Virgil, Plato, and Orphic and Pythagorean traditions. The hell myth wasn't in the Old Testament or Christian tradition before this writer developed it out of pagan traditions." - From - http://30ce.com/developmentofhell.htm - the first few paragraphs I do not believe to be accurate...

I did learn that Plato...

From - http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/origin-of-hell-fire.php#.Vx-ORnErLnA

"The concept of a soul within us that cannot die first became a 'Christian' doctrine at the end of the second century AD. Hell had been taught in Greek philosophy long before the time of Jesus, with Plato (427-347 BC) as the important leader in this thinking.

The teaching of an everlasting place of punishment for the wicked is the natural consequence of a belief in an immortal soul. By the year AD 187, it was understood that life, once we have it, is compulsory; there is no end to it, either now or in a world to come. We have no choice as to its continuance, even if we were to commit suicide to end it.

At the end of the 2nd century Christianity had begun to blend Greek philosophy —human speculative reasoning, with the teachings of God's Word. Such words and phrases as 'continuance of being', 'perpetual existence', 'incapable of dissolution' and 'incorruptible' began to appear in so-called Christian writings. These had come straight from Plato, the Greek philosopher, all those years before Jesus."

And... I learned it is amaazing what an impact Dante had!!! I never knew there was as much art devoted to his "epic" poem! :faint:
   God bless! :hiya:

[eaglesway]

does the bible say anything about people hearing the damned screaming from hell

wasnt there a recording made of that by some Russians in Siberia or someplace ?  :eek:...turned out to be a hoax  :banana: :thumbsup:

The Bible has nothing in it about the damned screaming in hell.

[marie glen]

what about this http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rejectuniversalism.htm

"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41)." "the fiery furnace" - this of course is at Jesus' return, when the wheat (sheep) is gathered into His barn and the tares are gathered to armageddon, the goats.. Or is there sentence and torture before judgment/trial?

"Tormented Day and Night For Ever and Ever" - this, as other's posted is translated from "aion" "aionian"... eon..
...besides, this is said about the devil and his angels..

"better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell (Matt. 18:9)." - actually what was written was fire of gehenna, and "gehenna" was the city dump where even the bodies of criminals were burned. "better your hand be cast there than you harm one of these little ones" (context) "and your whole body be cast there"

"None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled (John 17:12)." - for example, one business man may say to another, I will destroy you.. Another example, many will be destroyed at Jesus' return - in the "Day of the LORD" - Apocalypse is the lesson, not 'hell'. YHWH is both perfect and all mighty.. and also is 100% "good".

"[color=greenwill be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes[/color] - everlasting - from "aionian"

"Raging fire will consume the enemies of God (Heb. 10:27)" - again apocalypse, the unveiling, that life apart from YHWH - who iS life (and Perfection) can only ever end in a crashing and burning.. He is much (much) wiser and capable than we give Him credit for!! He is writing the truth - good from evil / life from nonlife,death upon every heart, mind and psyche.

"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (Rev. 22:14,15)." - amen, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness.. on 'day' of judgment.. and it is ALWAYS true that to be outside His Perfect Will.. is to be outside..

"small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it (Matt. 7:13,14)." - true I'm not sure any of us "find it" as the Word says He chose us, not vice versa..

"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 7:21)." - absolutely.. those of the 2nd resurrection, having died in their sins, will rise still in their sins.. I believe it is only at the end of judgment day, a day of the review of all things, every story, and all human history, when it will be said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death" (or lake of fire-aionian, maybe a few really hard cases? imo)

But really.. who after having experienced being woke up from their grave, and witnessing the judging of all things, who's not going to "believe"? (After aLL that?!) :smile:

"those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned (John 5:28,29)." - who is this writing this? they don't look into the original words used, at all..?

http://studybible.info/IGNT/John%205:28,29 - the verse with the language references
"destruction" = G2920
κρίσις
krisis
decision
by extension a tribunal; by implication justice

So say I rise from my grave still in my sins and imperfect and I never heard anything whatsoever about Jesus and His paying the price for my sins.. nor ever heard of the heavenly Father God who loves me. I will simply be woken up and thrown into burning forever fire, where my skin will melt forever and ever. And that would be Yahweh's perfect justice.. Perhaps I lived all my life under a horrible despot and died under torture or in a rape room. Now even worse things await me. The face burning in the image of this site, says it all. How God is love and is almighty and is perfect. I am never surprised at scoffers. And those who cannot believe. Wo to those who add to and take away from God's Word. His word, not man's translations of it.. "they love the lie.. and love to have it so.."?

It's only after Dante and such that we are obsessed with an afterlife. The Hebrew barely makes mention of such a thing.. Only resurrection.

"This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe (1 Tim. 4:9,10). - It does not say "exclusively those who believe" but "especially those who believe" which of course is so very true! Can't save them until they believe. "Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess" -  a verse repeated at least 3 times. "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn-to-the Lord, and all families will worship before Him" Ps 22:27. "In your seed (Jesus) all nations will be blessed" .."all families will be blessed".. And so many more.. how are they missed? :faint:

:Peace2: God bless... hope some of these very good posts and scriptures quoted in this thread have helped! :girlheart:

does the bible say anything about people hearing the damned screaming from hell

wasnt there a recording made of that by some Russians in Siberia or someplace ?  :eek:...turned out to be a hoax  :banana: :thumbsup:

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: yep, nothing like it is in the bible.. when nations and even Israel was sacrificing children and babes in fire - beating drums so the screaming would be drowned out - (that's what the name means, "Tophet"? - "drumming") The LORD God said "such a thing never rose up in my heart! nor originated with me!!" And I (for one) 100% believe Him.
    :Peace2: :cloud9:

[eaglesway]

the man of sin being revealed, it is revealed in everyone just as this is an ancient concept of the struggle of flesh and spirit and there really is a false prophet who speaks to you in your ear. Revelation is the overcoming of the beast and false prophet within people and those two witnesses are within everyone.


While agree with the principle there, because many things are "wheels within wheels" in the scriptures, I believe there is going to be a historical manifestation of this principle at the end of the age, as John said, there are anti-christ's already, so there is a spirit of anti-christ, but there are also human anti-christs, in league with and inspired by that spirit as adversaries to the Lordship of Jesus and His gospel proclaiming His truth, His salvation and the resurrection of the dead.

The god of this world hates the resurrection of the dead.

If you note the prophecy of Daniel(the sealed book, daniel 12), of which Revelation is a continuation(the sealed book unsealed Rev 6:1 thru Rev 22:6 ... an example could be the statue with the gold head, which represented various spiritual principles but was also yoked in history with certain actual kingdoms among men and their kings- Nebuchadnezzar being the Head of Gold, the monarchal empire of Babylon.

I want to again remind you Hannibal that this is a site for the promotion of UR. it is not a place for folks to come present their unique views on eschatology as "teachings", which whether you realize it or not, you are doing. Please present your points as points of view, "I think", imo, or "this looks to me like"- rather than as foregone conclusions and absolutes. I am enjoying some of your points and they are interesting, I disagree with some as well, but this is not a debate site. It is a discussion site, focused on the salvation of all..