U.R. affirmations

[CST]

That's very true.. When I read part of the book "I'm Ok, You're Ok" years ago, what it said struck me as very true.. That there's (basically) three psychologies (according to the book)

1 - I'm ok. You're not ok. - I think we can see this in many folks.. but it is not the healthy mind set

2 - You're ok. I'm not ok. - This too, is not the healthy mindset, for obvious reasons.. which you touched on..

3 - the healthy mind set - no chip on the shoulder, no inferiority complex.. "I'm ok. You're ok." Of course this cannot always be true. Faced with Charley Manson or someone, it would not be true to say "I'm ok, you're ok...

Which sort of reminds me of my own biggest reason for not wanting judgement day to be a piece of cake - (for the everyday sinner, no more so than it was for the rest of us 'everyday' sinners).. but certainly not for despots, dictators and genocidal maniacs.. including all those on a lesser scale.. Nope, should not be "easy".. Not by a long shot!

And, their victims 'deserve' to think "I can't wait for judgment day" when their evil is exposed and they have to pay their dues! I find myself thinking "I can't wait for judgment day" when I hear of some terrible evil done to, well, some of those everyday sinners.. (regular folk/people -- we're all in this together). Or when I read of some horrible ruler in history.. etc.. etc..

I actually, however, am not entirely sure any humans will go to the lake of fire. If indeed, or by any chance, judgement 'day' does last nigh unto 500 years - who by end of 'day', after being risen from their grave and living through and witnessing a long day of the review of all things.. who, after all that, isn't going to "believe" and therefor, faced with the radiance of God's holiness and purifying fiery presence, not going to come to their senses and repent - mightily.

This is just my theory of course. But I can't help noticing that in revelation chapter 20, last verse, when it says those not written in the book, will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, it doesn't say "age-during" or anything else pertaining to duration at all.

The only lake of fire verse which does mention duration is Rev 20:10 - (YLT) - "and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." - "ages to the ages" being #g165 "aiōn" with a slight difference in the two "ages/aion, but I don't know greek so..

αιωνας of the αιωνων  :dontknow:

But we do know Col 1:20 and Eph 1:10 which say "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus." And how Yahweh will be "all in all".. (so, either the devil perishes in the lof or there is a duration..)

In Revelation chapter 19 - I may of course be very wrong, and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who agrees with me, but in revelation 19 when "the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the LOF" I don't believe they are persons at all (but institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return). So to my mind, before end of judgment day - thus far, no humans in the lof.

"Judgment" too upon unrepentant evildoers (who likely no one would like to see get off easy) will also come upon many at Jesus' return, when the birds 'of midheaven' - the birds which fly higher than the little birds? are told to gather for the great feast of God in the day of the great slaughter (when the towers fall) is likely not to be too clear of sailing either.. And that's a large part of what I personally think "judgment" is. The coming upon our own heads, our own doings and choices. (Amen, not 'free-will', but what I think of as the ability to make choices, an offshoot of thinking ability?)

'Hell' --- fire as destruction.. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer, on the 'success' of the Manhattan Project.
"The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard" - Isaiah 24:20

...all just my :2c: of course.. :gsmile:

Wow, fascinating. Even though I'm not sure you were trying you seem to have addressed just about everything I've said in that last post by relating it all to one psychological philosophy.

Sounds good, in most all of those stories I remember that got my goat there does seem to be an unpleasant mixture of cynicism and moral hypocrisy both of which I rationally know to be the most destructive attitudes on the planet but also know are the hardest sins to avoid.

Often the story position appears to be 'I'm OK, You're not OK' with added because of that I can do whatever I like to you and I'll still be OK and you'll still be not OK and there's this feeling we're meant to endorse that. I just find that very unpalatable and it offends my sense of justice or something.

That said, again I like to believe everything you say about what you feel about Judgment Day and I feel that there are hints in the Bible that can be used to make cases to support it. You and greg have just introduced another one by basically downgrading the lake to a pond. It doesn't sound like it will hold an awful lot of people that.

However, I still feel I have to come down on the side of EW and 'why write it if it's merit-less?' sounds like another way of saying that it's not in the spirit of what's written. That said, the merit of writing it may not lie in the unfolding of what it describes but how it works on and affects the reader of the work.

But remember while it sounds logical for the victims of injustice to feel as you describe towards those that hurt them and natural to do so remember history is written by the victors and the victor in this case is Jesus who commands us to forgive. And such thoughts aren't that forgiving. However natural they might seem. <sigh> Hard, hard, hard.

[SarahR37]

I have forgive alot of people in my life. But it seems that they can't do the same. We all makes mistakes and it is what god planned.  So if god plans for us to do bad and learn from it , it was ment to happen? Even if we wish it didn't happen? I learned a lot in my life time. And I never wanted to hurt no one. But it seems people have a hard time to fogive me.

[CST]

I have forgive alot of people in my life. But it seems that they can't do the same. We all makes mistakes and it is what god planned.  So if god plans for us to do bad and learn from it , it was ment to happen? Even if we wish it didn't happen? I learned a lot in my life time. And I never wanted to hurt no one. But it seems people have a hard time to fogive me.

:smile: At least you seem comfortable to talk about it and it is certain that it is also part of God's plan that they will forgive you and we'll forgive all those we've neglected to forgive. Even while it can suck to wait for it right now. I wonder how many people set out to hurt others. I doubt it's that many and then they get hurt themselves and start to go down hill on that. :bsad:

[marie glen]

It's my belief since the Heavenly Father does the choosing, for most their reconciliation will be no more stringent than ours is and was. Or the fire He baptized/s us with.

Sometimes I believe the lake of fire is what it says it is, death, which contrary to what popularly is believed, I believe is nonlife. And there's no verses mentioning a 3rd resurrection... :faint:

And I believe judgment day to be, surprise(to many) - Day of Atonement - since the ancient Spring holy days are a shadow of Jesus' first advent, it would be illogical that the fall ones do not represent His long second advent.

By verses we have describing Day of Atonement I believe we can learn much.

I do believe there's very likely to be for the truly evil much weeping, gnashing of teeth and outer darkness.

And of course believe "all" ultimately will choose Yahweh/life/perfection, and that His purity and holiness will permeate and rule all things :dsunny: which I can't help thinking there will be no more attitudes of "I'm okay but there's something wrong with you" but the whole-some psychology of mutual respect and affection.
:Peace2: :gsmile:

[marie glen]

U.R. Affirmation:

From Luke 4:18

.."to preach deliverance to the captives.."

with

Hebrews 2:14,15

"..Since the children have flesh and blood, he too..  so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death.. and free all those who through fear of death were held in bondage.."

and

Romans 11:32

"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

[CST]

It's my belief since the Heavenly Father does the choosing, for most their reconciliation will be no more stringent than ours is and was. Or the fire He baptized/s us with.

Sometimes I believe the lake of fire is what it says it is, death, which contrary to what popularly is believed, I believe is nonlife. And there's no verses mentioning a 3rd resurrection... :faint:

And I believe judgment day to be, surprise(to many) - Day of Atonement - since the ancient Spring holy days are a shadow of Jesus' first advent, it would be illogical that the fall ones do not represent His long second advent.

By verses we have describing Day of Atonement I believe we can learn much.

I do believe there's very likely to be for the truly evil much weeping, gnashing of teeth and outer darkness.

And of course believe "all" ultimately will choose Yahweh/life/perfection, and that His purity and holiness will permeate and rule all things :dsunny: which I can't help thinking there will be no more attitudes of "I'm okay but there's something wrong with you" but the whole-some psychology of mutual respect and affection.
:Peace2: :gsmile:

I'd like to agree with that and try to but struggle to see 'ours' as an objective term here as clearly there are some Christians (or would claim to be) that have pretty easy lives and there are others, like the apostles, who suffered and were executed for their beliefs. There are also a number of non-Christians who never had the chance to hear of Jesus who have awfully tragic lives. Claims about how stringently we are disciplined seems to come to nothing if we compare that discipline to the martyrs. Or think about the suffering of the heathen disenfranchised who nevertheless must receive further correction owing to not being Christian.

That's certainly how tradition would have us see it. Something that bothers me about UR is that sometimes is seems like it's simply ET-lite. Like all we have to is take out the endless aspects of the consequences of the great judgement and all the items of Christianity people might find objectionable go away. Hardly surprising give that the official religion drills all these things into our heads without us really thinking about it.

[marie glen]

Amen, CST! ...to me part of the 'question' has been how to make sense of the different degrees of suffering.. Some suffer horribly.. And some, it would seem, not so much (at least or especially, when compared to the truly horrific things which have happened in history and happens to some, Christian and non Cristian alike. By less stringent, I mean I can't envision for all those who never came to believe during this life, many who never ever heard the Good News, a resurrection (the 2nd, 1000 years after the 1st) which simply consists of waking up and being cast into a lake of fire. It just does not sound logical nor reasonable to me.)

Why the suffering, and why suffering not equally distributed? The only sensible 'answer' it seems to me, is things are being let to run their course. With of course His interference to some degree, but somewhat minimal, otherwise it wouldn't be natural course. When He endowed rationality, choice, naturally comes along with it. And what is choice if you don't let it run its natural course?

And in all of this, I can't help thinking also, that our Heavenly Father being life itself, being that life force(?) he lives through, suffers, and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur.. Imagine putting himself through aLL that..

One thing I thoroughly believe is that he is Perfect and is Perfection. And perfect (surely?) makes  no mistakes, loses nothing, and the 'end' result of all this, can only be the best one possible.
:dontknow: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

If the wages (result) of sin is death.. And death came upon all (not 'hell' - that's not even worth considering, but death is the result, the law of sin and death which all are under). And Jesus defeated death for only some? How is that even remotely possible? Or logical? Jus' sayin'.. :laughing7: :gsmile:

I'm sure this has been mentioned here before..!

[CST]

Amen, CST! ...to me part of the 'question' has been how to make sense of the different degrees of suffering.. Some suffer horribly.. And some, it would seem, not so much (at least or especially, when compared to the truly horrific things which have happened in history and happens to some, Christian and non Cristian alike. By less stringent, I mean I can't envision for all those who never came to believe during this life, many who never ever heard the Good News, a resurrection (the 2nd, 1000 years after the 1st) which simply consists of waking up and being cast into a lake of fire. It just does not sound logical nor reasonable to me.)

Why the suffering, and why suffering not equally distributed? The only sensible 'answer' it seems to me, is things are being let to run their course. With of course His interference to some degree, but somewhat minimal, otherwise it wouldn't be natural course. When He endowed rationality, choice, naturally comes along with it. And what is choice if you don't let it run its natural course?

And in all of this, I can't help thinking also, that our Heavenly Father being life itself, being that life force(?) he lives through, suffers, and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur.. Imagine putting himself through aLL that..

One thing I thoroughly believe is that he is Perfect and is Perfection. And perfect (surely?) makes  no mistakes, loses nothing, and the 'end' result of all this, can only be the best one possible.
:dontknow: :cloud9:

It doesn't sound logical or reasonable to me either, but there are other things that Christianity has traditionally believed that also don't sound logical or reasonable so I continue to be unsure what to do with it, there's only so far you can dilute (reinterpret more mildly) the text of the Bible before the interpretation starts to become tenuous even to you. But, technically, of course, the dead don't just wake up and get cast into the lake of fire. There's a judgement first. The concern, of course, is the Bible at places appears to suggest this process in a formality because who does and doesn't go into the lake is determined exclusively by who's names are written in the Book of Life a strange concept the content of which sometimes appears fixed and sometimes flexible. Ultimately unless names can be added in after it's opened and indeed first read, some people will never find life and will never enter Heaven and therefore UR is wrong. The question for us therefore is not whether or not names can be put into the Book of Life, it's whether they can be added during the judgement process.

Natural course, I think that's what I alluded to in my post on the thread about the question on the creation of Hell. I see you've posted in their too so I'll go there now.

Amen to your last post, it's hard to see how it could be untrue.

[Lazarus Short]

Here's an affirmation, as I posted elsewhere earlier today in my thread, "Will the Prosecutor's Chair be Empty?"

Isn't God clever in that, before the Great White Throne judgment, He takes the accuser of the brethren out of the way?  I have never heard of read of it, but once you realize it, it pops out as obvious.  God is going to keep His own counsel, with no distractions from the peanut gallery of the Prince of Heck, who is dragged off to the abyss/bottomless pit/Lake of Fire before the judgment proceeds.  What a merciful God we serve!

[CST]

Again, that's one of those points that sounds very nice and plausible but starts to seem a bit tenuous is you stop to think about it. I don't want to rule it out entirely and don't think this thread is really the place to go into detail but even without Satan present people are being judged according to what's written in the books, that I would expect to be true, but go to Heaven or Hell in accordance with whose names are recorded in the Book of Life which is entirely down to God. On that score it's more important, I think that Death is recorded as going into the Lake of Fire before it is announced that any people not found in the Book of Life do. But that still seems a mite tenuous.

[marie glen]

The question for us therefore is not whether or not names can be put into the Book of Life, it's whether they can be added during the judgement process.

Exactly.. and what we have to go on is God's Word.. also the question to my mind is, what is required for one's name to be written in the book of life? I think it requires "belief".. true and honest belief in Jesus as Messiah and Savior and Yahweh as Most High God.. or that's how I would think of it anyway.. And since I believe judgement day' to be an age (of 500 years more or less, allowing time for Satan's short release and the surrounding of the holy city) - this 500 years, because of the spacing of the ancient fall holy days (shadow of our Lord's long 2nd advent?)

So being of a pondering sort of mind, i find myself thinking about the resurrection of all those not yet saved, and what it would be like for them. As soon as many are awakened from their grave and find their selves in front of the Great White Throne and Yahweh's radiant presence, I think many will "believe" right then.. and begin the repentance process. Some weeping.. even some gnashing of teeth.. even, for some.. outer darkness! I mean just think of all the evil in mankind's history! Oppressions.. Very few people have lived good and free lives, actually.. Then i figure those at the end of judgment age who have refused to bend the knee - thus far - for the Word does say "every knee shall bow" and this is written in three places - Philippians, Romans and Isaiah.. And of course "God will be all in all". But those few very stubborn holdouts, if there are any, shall spend aionian time in the purifying LOF.. or POF pond of fire.. :smile:

Here's an affirmation, as I posted elsewhere earlier today in my thread, "Will the Prosecutor's Chair be Empty?"

Isn't God clever in that, before the Great White Throne judgment, He takes the accuser of the brethren out of the way?  I have never heard of read of it, but once you realize it, it pops out as obvious.  God is going to keep His own counsel, with no distractions from the peanut gallery of the Prince of Heck, who is dragged off to the abyss/bottomless pit/Lake of Fire before the judgment proceeds.  What a merciful God we serve!

It's true!

Revelation 20:7-11a

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it.."

:thumbsup: :banana:

[eaglesway]

Just as a thought from a different perspective.....

Who is to say that the book of life is ever used again after what is depicted before the Great White Throne? In Daniel 7:10 and Rev 20:12 it is written that "the books were opened". In Romans 2 it is written, "their conscience either accusing them or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ". Determinations are made by what are in the books, the scrolls, the records of the acts and secret attitudes of all who have ever lived. "The Lord knows those who are His"(2 Tim 2:19) and He is the only one who writes a name in that book, or blots it out

Whatever the lake of fire represents(I believe it represents being immersed in light in the presence of the Lord and all His holy ones until every hidden thing is brought to light and every knee bows), Phil 2:9-211 and 1 Cor 15:25-28 make it clear that every adversay will be reconciled. Whenever that point comes(each in their own order)- perhaps there will be no more judgment, no more need for books or thrones, they will all have been "gathered into one in Christ" and become a part of the "all in all". According to Paul in 1 Cor 15 "all rule power and authority" will be anulled previous to God becoming all in all. Peter says the same thing in other words in 2 Peter 3,

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will be destroyed(lythesetai- dissolved) by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare(heurethesetai-exposed).

It is only by assumption that we can impute any future relevance to the book of life beyond that which is written of at the GWT. To me this is how Christian myths get started and perpetuate, based on information that is speculative- and really non-existent. We really just cant see that far. :o)

All I can see about the book of life from what is written is that at the GWT- whatever that will be- the book of life will be used to determine who is in need of whatever the lake of fire is, or better, who is not in need of it.

Personally, I believe millions or even billions who never heard of Jesus or the law of Moses will bow their knees instantly at the GWT and give glory to God the Father. As strange as it sounds, I believe some will hold out in some way, measure, until the fire in His eyes and the sword of His mouth and the love shining from His face finally disarms the last adversary- at which point death will have totally disappeared.  :dsunny:

Me, I am going through this every day. The light is penetrating further and further into the chaos of my soul. I find myself perceiving the acts and attitudes of my life both in the past and in each Day in the consuming fire of His love and I must agree quickly with my adversary while I am on the way to the judge lest I be delivered over to the bailff for imprisonment.

Freedom abides ony so long as I agree with what I see in the mirror of His penetrating gaze.

19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

[CST]

The question for us therefore is not whether or not names can be put into the Book of Life, it's whether they can be added during the judgement process.

So being of a pondering sort of mind, i find myself thinking about the resurrection of all those not yet saved, and what it would be like for them. As soon as many are awakened from their grave and find their selves in front of the Great White Throne and Yahweh's radiant presence, I think many will "believe" right then.. and begin the repentance process. Some weeping.. even some gnashing of teeth.. even, for some.. outer darkness! I mean just think of all the evil in mankind's history! Oppressions.. Very few people have lived good and free lives, actually.. Then i figure those at the end of judgment age who have refused to bend the knee - thus far - for the Word does say "every knee shall bow" and this is written in three places - Philippians, Romans and Isaiah.. And of course "God will be all in all". But those few very stubborn holdouts, if there are any, shall spend aionian time in the purifying LOF.. or POF pond of fire.. :smile:

Or we could just look at a crucifix. I'm absolutely certain that if you want evidence for how wicked people are you need look no further than remind them that they devised to execute people like that.

Just as a thought from a different perspective.....

Who is to say that the book of life is ever used again after what is depicted before the Great White Throne? In Daniel 7:10 and Rev 20:12 it is written that "the books were opened". In Romans 2 it is written, "their conscience either accusing them or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ". Determinations are made by what are in the books, the scrolls, the records of the acts and secret attitudes of all who have ever lived. "The Lord knows those who are His"(2 Tim 2:19) and He is the only one who writes a name in that book, or blots it out

Whatever the lake of fire represents(I believe it represents being immersed in light in the presence of the Lord and all His holy ones until every hidden thing is brought to light and every knee bows), Phil 2:9-211 and 1 Cor 15:25-28 make it clear that every adversay will be reconciled. Whenever that point comes(each in their own order)- perhaps there will be no more judgment, no more need for books or thrones, they will all have been "gathered into one in Christ" and become a part of the "all in all". According to Paul in 1 Cor 15 "all rule power and authority" will be anulled previous to God becoming all in all. Peter says the same thing in other words in 2 Peter 3,

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will be destroyed(lythesetai- dissolved) by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare(heurethesetai-exposed).

It is only by assumption that we can impute any future relevance to the book of life beyond that which is written of at the GWT. To me this is how Christian myths get started and perpetuate, based on information that is speculative- and really non-existent. We really just cant see that far. :o)

All I can see about the book of life from what is written is that at the GWT- whatever that will be- the book of life will be used to determine who is in need of whatever the lake of fire is, or better, who is not in need of it.

Personally, I believe millions or even billions who never heard of Jesus or the law of Moses will bow their knees instantly at the GWT and give glory to God the Father. As strange as it sounds, I believe some will hold out in some way, measure, until the fire in His eyes and the sword of His mouth and the love shining from His face finally disarms the last adversary- at which point death will have totally disappeared.  :dsunny:

Me, I am going through this every day. The light is penetrating further and further into the chaos of my soul. I find myself perceiving the acts and attitudes of my life both in the past and in each Day in the consuming fire of His love and I must agree quickly with my adversary while I am on the way to the judge lest I be delivered over to the bailff for imprisonment.

Freedom abides ony so long as I agree with what I see in the mirror of His penetrating gaze.

19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

'This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Rev 20: 14b-15)

Book of Life is used to contrast second death or death. Those whose names are not found therein, it is suggested, are thus dead to Truth and thus can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Being made alive in Jesus is what qualifies people for going into Heaven and why their name is in the Book. Since no-one believes anyone will go to Heaven until they meet the necessary criteria and those who meet that criteria would be those whose names are in the Book of Life it's not a unreasonable conclusion to believe that, at bare minimum they will all have to meet that criteria for having their name in the Book before they can leave the lake of Fire.

'And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true."' (Rev. 21:5)

Notice He doesn't say 'Behold, I make all new things.' Which would be different. That statement rather reduces the meaning of the phrases were He talks about destroying the Earth.

[marie glen]

I can clearly see Eaglesway, how you perceive the lake of fire and I do agree some of what we ponder and think about judgment day is speculative beyond what is written about lives being examined.. And this may be where we differ, as I think of judgment 'day' or more accurately the GWT judgment to be a great 'day' of review, even intensive and collective review. Collectively not so much the review of individual's lives but of history and all mankind's more collective ways, doings and choices.

It's very true that our human reasonings and speculations on biblical matters can be quite faulty. We can also wrongly interpret what we believe to be answers from His spirit. To me, the whole idea of the GWT judgment being a great day of review and individual coming to terms, with the elect helping to counsel individuals came in a package with what I perceived to be answers to a heartfelt prayer for better understanding in order to have better answers {when my son at age 16 asked me two questions I was not at all happy or satisfied with my answers to - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm!?" - I guess that last ones not a question? :laugh2:

To me, logic is a line (I think) I can see, an extension. And the truth, to me, is a whole. It's why 'hell' was never a consideration for me. To me, by extension, I can't help thinking a great day of review (collective) is an awesome opportunity! I believe He is creating an un-breakable paradise/perfection. That it will be un-breakable and un-disturbed because every single psyche in heaven and earth will thoroughly understand the rod of truth which can never in no way ever be broken.

You see, I don't see the lake of fire as being a process of death, but as death. That the only reason any soul/person ever lives after their death is because of "resurrection" an active act of Yahweh (and, or Jesus?) And therefor the only reason for a distinction between a first death, and a second. (Having nothing to do with us being 'metaphorically' dead before being "born again".)

Though I have toyed with the idea of Satan's survival of it, the LOF, for the Word says "every knee shall bow" and "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus".

I don't remember how it dawned on me - likely read it - that if His 1st advent fullfilled the Spring Holy Days, then by logical extension, His long 2nd advent will fulfill the fall holy days.
    ...and aren't there three peaks of that advent? and three holy days..?

And by extension / speculation  :laughing7: if the ten days between trumpets and day of atonement is a shadow of the millennium reign of Jesus on this earth before it is made new or is a new heavens and new earth wherein Yahweh our Father is "all in all", and before the resurrection of those not yet saved and before the GWT judgment, what are the five days between day of atonement and tabernacles a shadow of?

Look how nicely the fall holy days fit with the three peaks of our Lord's long second advent! "Trumpets" being used in the book of revelation to herald His appearing.. And then the final trumpet when he arrives and gathers His elect to Him both living and the no longer living saints/believers. And the ushering in/arrival of His millennial rule.

Ten days after Israel's ancient day of trumpets is their most ?important annual holy day. The only day of the year when the high priest went into the holy of holies to present sacrifice for the reconciliation of all the people. "Any one not presenting themselves on that day will be cut off" ("from the people"). It was a great day of collective repentance. And reconciliation.

Five days after day of atonement is Tabernacles. (Seven days of camping! :banana: )

I love how the KJ says Rev 21:3 "behold the tabernacle of God is now with man and He will tabernacle/camp(!) with them and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and will be their God".

I believe the only record of any one going to the LOF is that one called satan, because I believe the others, in chapter 19, the beast and false prophet cast there, one I believe is an institution of man and the other a false idea and (strong) teaching, never to exist/be active again.

...and I don't believe any humans will go there, as I believe every name by end of the GWT judgment 'day', will be written in the book of Life. Which, "books" I am inclined to think of as metaphor, but of course I may be completely wrong. :smile: :smile: :girlheart:

[eaglesway]

I can clearly see Eaglesway, how you perceive the lake of fire and I do agree some of what we ponder and think about judgment day is speculative beyond what is written about lives being examined.. And this may be where we differ, as I think of judgment 'day' or more accurately the GWT judgment to be a great 'day' of review, even intensive and collective review. Collectively not so much the review of individual's lives but of history and all mankind's more collective ways, doings and choices.

I agree the "books" (the word is actually scrolls) are metaphorical, but I believe they are metaphors for the secrets of mens hearts spoken of in Romans 2..."Their conscience either accusing them or excusing them on the day when God will judge the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ." To me that is highly individual, as is Romans 2 and Matthew 25,"When the son of man shall come in His glory and all the hly angels with Him and sit on His throne"... "Lord, Lord, didnt we blah blah blah"..."I was thirsty and you gave me no drink".... Depart from me into the aonian pyr prepared for the devil and His angels"

So, I have to disagree with the statement that there is no record of anyone besides the beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire. It is clearly written that of all the dead raised at the second resurrection, "anyone's name who was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". I dont think the scriptures play word games, describing a category where no category exists. Also, we see Jesus spoke of people being cast into "aionian pyr" for "aionian kolassis" and describes it as "prepared for the devil and his angels"

"6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

If Rev 19 stood alone, perhaps I could see your point, but I believe it must be viewed in context with Rom 2, Mt 25, Rev 14 and Rev 20

Also Paul speaks in 1 Cor 3 of believers being saved "but as through fire".

So, I believe the "fire" is metaphorical language for the light of God exposing and consuming darkness. It is not as literal flames of physical torment, of course.

But I fail to see the logic or integrity of Jesus warning people to beware of a fire(experience of exposure and correction) that does not exist, or John saying blessed are those who miss it- unless it is real and in some way difficult and to be avoided.

I do believe we also experience this in this life, in principle, as we walk through experience and trial and discipline. But I also read the scriptures, through Jesus, John and Paul- testifying to some form of "aionian pyr"- which I believe is what both the lake of fire and Gehenna represent metaphorically.

[CST]

Highly, individual... and specific. My heart can condemn me and excuse me on the exact same thing on different days. Human consciences aren't really reliable to any ultimate degree if they wee we'd have stopped sinning long ago as we learned never to ignore them.

I certainly agree that 'those whose names were not found' describes a category it's just possible it doesn't describe a category of specific humans. Of course, later in the book we get a list of several categories none of which are peoples names but rather the types of being you'll find in the Lake of Fire. Is that the whole being or part of the being? Probably the whole but... well it's presented strangely.

But I'm not sure how much I want to talk about any of this here.

[marie glen]

I believe the only record of any one going to the LOF (thus far, I should say) is that one called satan...

It's my belief the rest is threats and very real potential.. but I believe the potential (and threat of occurring) is death (thanatos) a second time.. rather than a process of purification.

Even as late as Revelation 21:8 - "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars their part shall be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - I simply think by that time no one will be any longer fitting in those categories.. Since I believe the 2nd death is death/nonlife plus believe "every knee shall bow".

Although.. there are times (since coming to tentmaker) I believe there is purification, as brimstone/sulphur is said to be cleansing (and believe even torment!) even if fire does bring to nothing.. And perhaps some few totally hard cases, who simply cannot bend the knee by end of judgment day', may end up there after all.. "ageduring" -

One day we will know what the lake of fire and the second death is, punishment, purification or death.. for me, I can't get past the word thanatos, and, how death and the grave are cast there.. to my mind, to perish, and no longer exist.. (same as the political beast body and the false notion/teaching/prophet/prophecy so strongly accepted/adhered to and alive/active in these 'last days')

Until then I figure we're surely, all believers, or even all U.R. believers are not going to believe all things exactly alike and all we can do is listen and try to understand one another's view (when at all feasible of course).

[CHB]

What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?

CHB

[rosered]

What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?

CHB

I LOVE IT  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

HOW CAN ''all things ''be made by Him and though Him and for Him [ the WORD OF LIFE ]  Col 1;16 John 1 ;3   Romans 11 ;36 and GOD end up being all in ALL[SPIRIT OF LIFE ] 1 Corth 15   , IF  this is not the truth   :iagree: 

Every hold  gives up the dead ... and only GOD raises the DEAD  to life again ...

27For "God has put everything under His feet." Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him.

28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?...


Baptism for the dead, vicarious baptism or proxy baptism today commonly refers to the religious practice of baptizing a person on behalf of one who is dead—a living person receiving the rite on behalf of a deceased person.

Many believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead and are gathering   all into Christ   now , some do not believe it at all

  HE IS THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING ,   and WILL KEEP HIS WORD

Romans 14 ...8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat....

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

John 12:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if dies, it bears much fruit.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Philippians 2:11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

1 Thessalonians 5:10
He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.

1 Peter 4:5
But they will have to give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Revelation 1:18
the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

Revelation 2:8
To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life.


From dead letters of the law   that kills to the LIVING WORD OF TRUTH  BY THE LIVING GOD ,WHOM IS SPIRIT AND LOVE and A CONSUMING FIRE . :dsunny:

[CST]

I believe the only record of any one going to the LOF (thus far, I should say) is that one called satan...

It's my belief the rest is threats and very real potential.. but I believe the potential (and threat of occurring) is death (thanatos) a second time.. rather than a process of purification.

Even as late as Revelation 21:8 - "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars their part shall be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - I simply think by that time no one will be any longer fitting in those categories.. Since I believe the 2nd death is death/nonlife plus believe "every knee shall bow".

Although.. there are times (since coming to tentmaker) I believe there is purification, as brimstone/sulphur is said to be cleansing (and believe even torment!) even if fire does bring to nothing.. And perhaps some few totally hard cases, who simply cannot bend the knee by end of judgment day', may end up there after all.. "ageduring" -

One day we will know what the lake of fire and the second death is, punishment, purification or death.. for me, I can't get past the word thanatos, and, how death and the grave are cast there.. to my mind, to perish, and no longer exist.. (same as the political beast body and the false notion/teaching/prophet/prophecy so strongly accepted/adhered to and alive/active in these 'last days')

Until then I figure we're surely, all believers, or even all U.R. believers are not going to believe all things exactly alike and all we can do is listen and try to understand one another's view (when at all feasible of course).

What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?

CHB

It's entirely by suggestion but it's a strong suggestion: 'And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Rev. 20:13-15)

The context seems to be referring to Death, Hades and people who are under judgement, not Satan and the Beasts who went in earlier.

But I believe the process could well eradicate much of those eight category groups. To be honest I'm not entirely sure if the category group descriptions are current or historic. The latter seems more likely, people who occupied some of those category groups during their mortal lives rather than people who refuse to leave them in the narrative present. After all they might struggle to continue in those groups after the judgement.

[marie glen]

Awesome verses Rose! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

One thought which was running through my mind while reading, how He has authority over both the living and also the dead. Is there any limit to His reach on this? And I am thinking of the literally dead, who have ceased this life, no longer breathing, and not what's called dead while living/standing-the condition of us all before our faith in Jesus, when we were still, without hindrance headed toward, in my opinion, extinction.

(I believe any thing outside of God's will leads to death, extinction. And if not for God's great plan of salvation, that is where we would go... "a rod of iron which cannot be broken" and something which simply must be learned? Called understanding "good from evil". Only the good, the perfect, the pure - including 100% true - can endure.

I believe there are things hidden (and good reason for allowing the hell myth). If I were an evil despot who rose to power over other's lives and spent my life not only selfishly gratifying every want and whim, but spent it oppressing, torturing, raping, and killing others, when I first stand in front of God's Holy Throne, I don't deserve to know there's light at the end of the tunnel! Imo of course.:smile:
"Vengeance is mine, saith the LORD."

But thanks be to God, He does reveal things to His own.

How blessed we are to know in the 'end' He (Perfection) loses nothing. And most certainly :laughing7: makes no mistakes.
:girlheart: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?

CHB

That's the very thing I've been wondering.. Since I think of the 2nd death as extinction, and Satan as a rebel angel, a living creature, with thought etc, and since God's Word says "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus"... I know there's the thought that Satan is not alive, not a living creature, but just yesterday evening, coming up in my readings was "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take to you the whole armor of God." (Eph 6)

... if the principalities were merely forces or metaphor for the ability of humans to wander off and also to do evil, then wouldn't that make the Christian's warfare to be against flesh and blood?

But since - like the verses Rose posted, Jesus has authority over all who have ceased to live/ are dead, can there be any limit to this? Even from extinction, if God wills, one can be brought back..?

The others, the beast and false prophet, I do not believe are individuals as is most commonly thought and taught.

The beast.. which beast? As there are two (rev 13). Since I don't believe it to be an individual, I think this one is referring to the first beast of rev 13, the one with seven heads and ten horns w/ crowns, the 7th head having expired but come back.. Surely this beast is some sort of empire or governing.. (In bible language, ruling.)

In Revelation 19, when it says the beast and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, the 2nd death, the Greek word rendered alive is "zao" - " to live, literally or figuratively" including "active".

..the ('big') beast (13:1-10) an institution of man active at the time of Jesus' return? but never to rise again..

And the false prophet i (simply have to) believe is that false teacher/teaching so strongly and erroneously held by so many in these latter days, and which has turned western civilization/Christendom on its ear and is causing and has caused a great falling away in the culture, from the faith. A very strong delusion. (In strength on a par with the hell myth?) An absurd teaching never to be active/alive again..

:iagree: :thumbsup: How can names not be written in the book of life beyond this age? If all will live? All bend the knee.. And He be "all in all"..

[marie glen]

CST

"All were judged by what they had done, then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire"

..."all were judged.. then death and hades / death and the grave are thrown into the LOF, the 2nd death" ("and anyone found whose name is not in the book of life (believing?) will go to the LOF/2nd death"

"..and the last enemy to be defeated is death" - this makes me think once death is cast into the lake of fire/2nd death, all is/ has been subdued. The work is finished. (All have been reconciled/purified?)
:Chinscratch: what i'm most trying to discern right now is, will Satan be saved? :Chinscratch:

..Interesting discussion.. even if we are messing up these threads.. :o

[eaglesway]

Well, imho, it is a UR affirmation to say that all things in heaven and earth will be reconciled, inclusive of all things that were created by Him, all things that He is before, all things He is preeminent over(Col 1:15-20), so to me, the adversaries are done away with by reconciliation. They are subjected by reconciliation. By the blood of His cross. Once subjected all those adversaries will be returned to the Father that God may be all in all(1 Cor 15). Every knee shall bow(does Satan have knees  :laugh:) and every tongue confess - whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, that Jesus Crist is Lord to the glory of God the Father(he certainly has a tongue :laughing7:)- so yes, I believe "the adversary" will be reconciled, and with his reconciliation death will dissolve and the grave, being empty- will be no more and the lake of fire will be the glory of God, bearing a testimony that darkness is no more, chaos is no more, rebellion is no more- All are in God- our consuming fire. God is in all, having burned up every hidden self centered act and attitude- AND NOTHING WAS LOST. EVERYTHING ABOUNDED TOWARDS HIS GLORY IN THE RESTORATION OF THE WHOLE CREATION  :dsunny:

Every one redeemed from self will rejoice in the river, a voice like the rushing of many waters, 10,000s x10,000s praising God.

To me that is the message of Romans 8:18-23, Col 1:15-20, 1 Cor 15 23-28, Acts 3:21 and Rev 5:13...

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

14And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.

In Eph Paul says the principalities and powers are being taught the wisdom of God though the ecclesia, as we carry the ministry of reconciliation and bear His cross- we are showing them something greater than life. The love of God that swallows death and chaos and restores love and grace.

8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord(UR Eph 1:9-11), 12in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory(see Rom 8:18).
      14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

      20Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.