Fully God, Fully Man - no contradiction

[jabcat]

I believe faith is faith, and doesn't NECESSARILY need science to "prove" it.  However, though some of this is a bit over my head, is IMO a very good interesting read;

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/03/27/easter-jesus-and-death-conventional-wisdom.html?intcmp=hpff

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: very interesting! and helps to understand a bit better a little bit about quantum physics.. I love science! and don't want to be too far behind in what's going on in the field of it.. The idea so many have that "science" disproves God, and/or the Bible, is so far from true! :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

Interesting...........

Thanks, jabcat!


D.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

[idontknow]

Quantum physics is way over my head but i always thought this was really bizarre

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdoE1vX7k4

[joeteekay]

I find it difficult to reconcile the ideas that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man as many purport. I have heard that said many times, in many churches,  but I don't think so. I just do not see how something or someone can be fully one thing and fully another. It has to be one or the other.

This idea sounds like Greek mythology and the Greek gods who had both god-like and human attributes.

God is not man and man is not God. God is divine all powerful and immortal. Jesus gave up His glorified state in the Godhead to be born a human. The original scripture in I Tim 3:16 does not say that God was manifested in the flesh ( see extract by Knoch at the bottom).

Joh_17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Php 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Also God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), but Christ was tempted just as we are ( Heb 2:18, Heb 4:15).

Christ said He could do nothing of Himself. He was human when on earth. All miracles were through Him from the Father.

If someone insisted that Jesus was both, then Jesus really did not die (God cannot die) and was not the saviour of the world. Could this belief be the spirit of the antichrist? (2 John 1:7,  1 John 4:3)

Please do not construe this as minimizing the tremendous work and paramount importance of Jesus Christ. He is the saviour of the world. All will be saved through Him.  There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved. The very fact that He was really in the flesh while on earth gives us reason to be even more thankful for the remarkable work and sacrifice He made.

Just my opinion.  :2c:

This paragraph  from www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org  article by A.E. Knoch on "Christ compared with Diety"

We would add the phrase "God manifest in flesh" to our argument at this point, but the manuscript evidence is against the reading "God." It was changed from "who" or "which" in order to manufacture evidence for the deity of Christ. The context is also altogether contrary to this reading. It is concerned with deportment, the secret of devoutness, and its manifestation in the ecclesias of Paul's day. It cannot refer to Christ. He was not justified, or proclaimed among the nations while in flesh. His flesh was figured by the curtain in the temple (Heb.10:20), which hid the shekinah glory. It was not until the veil was rent from the top to the bottom that God was manifest. It was not until He died on Golgotha that God was revealed through, not in His flesh.
This passage is not needed to establish His right to be called God.

[rosered]

 
I have decided to be a fool  so as to become wise  if God permits   and to just ''give up '' on human reasoning and wisdom of the world  , it is flat out foolishness to God

  for me and after  all this time spent on it , its simple as can be   , the Word of God  , come in a human body  prepared for him in the fulness of time    and now returns to us in our human form /dust of the earth  as Spirit , letting the letter of the law KILL the Word of Life ?

  the WORD OF GOD  was not ''dead'' but dormant , what can it mean that the letter of the law kills ?  a letter is a jot and tittle [tiny  speck]
Yet we know the SPIRIT  gives it Life

  Why would Jesus go arounds saying  ,  those he  would rise from the dead were not dead but sleeping ?
   This makes no sense at all to the carnal reasoning  mind ,  because you cannot touch a word or feel it or   taste it or handle it  or see it   for what is is or hear it   , it is an instinctive KNOWING    without any  form  per se'    but  moves in the  physical world  freely and when it leaves it  , it is no more in that form .

Yet God exists  in every LIVING thing .

Dormant dor·mant
ˈdôrmənt/Submit
adjective
(of an animal) having normal physical functions suspended or slowed down for a period of time; in or as if in a deep sleep.
"dormant butterflies"
synonyms:   asleep, sleeping, resting; More
(of a plant or bud) alive but not actively growing.
synonyms:   asleep, sleeping, resting; More
(of a volcano) temporarily inactive.
synonyms:   asleep, sleeping, resting; More

  The Word of God /Son offspring of the  WORD SPOKEN   Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
HE IS THE DAY and Light of the world and  makes children of  the Day / light   being the knowledge of Himself  in them .

   He come in the fulness of time Sons and Heirs
...3So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons....
el·e·men·tal       things of the world    , When you just  think about that  underlying  cause   being a SPIRIT OF LIFE ITSELF    , makes it  hard to grasp it intellectually  , thinking  is  mentally challenging   to understanding   what it is .
ˌeləˈmen(t)l/
adjective
1.
primary or basic.
"elemental features from which all other structures are compounded"
synonyms:   basic, primary, fundamental, essential, root, underlying; rudimentary
"the elemental principles of accounting"
2.
related to or embodying the powers of nature.
"a thunderstorm is the inevitable outcome of battling elemental forces"
synonyms:   natural, atmospheric, meteorological, environmental, climatic
"elemental forces"
noun
1.
a supernatural entity or force thought to be physically manifested by occult/HIDDEN  means.
  Knowing Christ is Above All
7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,


and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,


9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,

but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,...


Faith is the only contact we have      with the SPIRIT OF LIFE   as  being mortal    as   the WORD OF GOD   increases  with the SPIRIT OF LIFE   moving  alive within us   and without this ''substance ''     there is no hope of going any further   or ever knowing the LOVE OF GOD , BEING LIFE ITSELF     , we are moved out of our places when this happens  in my opinion    ,  faith  , hope and love are the greatest    foundations to build  upon and  the name given is the LORD JESUS CHRIST in    this world and life  ,  having a  strong  name meaning  of power   of LIFE ITSELF   , Master  Salvation Anointed   under heaven by which we can be saved   from loss

Master , chief,  first  ,  leader   best mas·ter1
ˈmastər/Submit
noun
1.
historical
a man who has people working for him, especially servants or slaves.
"he acceded to his master's wishes"
synonyms:   lord, overlord, lord and master, ruler, sovereign, monarch, liege (lord), suzerain
"he acceded to his master's wishes"
2.
a skilled practitioner of a particular art or activity.
"I'm a master of disguise"
synonyms:   expert, adept, genius, past master, maestro, virtuoso, professional, doyen, authority, champion, record holder; More
adjective
1.
having or showing very great skill or proficiency.
"a master painter"
2.
main; principal.
"the master bedroom"
synonyms:   principal, main, chief; biggest
"the master bedroom"
verb
1.
acquire complete knowledge or skill in (an accomplishment, technique, or art).
"I never mastered Latin"
synonyms:   learn, become proficient in, know inside out, know (frontward and) backwards; More
2.
gain control of; overcome.
"I managed to master my fears"
synonyms:   overcome, conquer, beat, quell, quash, suppress, control, overpower, triumph over, subdue, vanquish, subjugate, prevail over, govern, curb, check, bridle, tame, defeat, get the better of, get a grip on, get over; informallick
"I managed to master my fears"

sal·va·tion
salˈvāSH(ə)n/
noun THEOLOGY
deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.
synonyms:   redemption, deliverance, reclamation
"salvation by way of repentance"
preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
"they try to sell it to us as economic salvation"
synonyms:   lifeline, preservation; More
a source or means of being saved from harm, ruin, or loss.
noun: one's salvation; plural noun: one's salvations
"his only salvation was to outfly the enemy"

a·noint
əˈnoint/Submit
verb
past tense: anointed; past participle: anointed
smear or rub with oil, typically as part of a religious ceremony.
"high priests were anointed with oil"
synonyms:   consecrate, bless, ordain; formal hallow
"he was anointed and crowned"
smear or rub something with (any other substance).
"Cuna Indians anoint the tips of their arrows with poison"
ceremonially confer divine or holy office upon (a priest or monarch) by smearing or rubbing with oil.
"the Lord has anointed me to preach to the poor"
synonyms:   consecrate, bless, ordain; formalhallow   1. Meaning: commemorate [v]. honour {Ü|en|}, dedicate, observe, celebrate, solemnize, venerate (formal), hallow (formal), memorialise, memorialize, solemnise.
"he was anointed and crowned"

  I do believe religion in general has perverted the  pure    WORD OF GOD    as    to what was originally intended ,

The POWER OF LIFE   IN THE SPIRIT    has no boundaries   , yet  religion   has bound     it to the traditions of men  ,

But   God is longsuffering towards us that none should   ''perish '' suffer complete ruin or destruction.

   and also  get to experience   some  of '' all things ''   to learn  the difference   between the two  realms   in thought and  substances,

   While we  grow in truth and grace   by the Lord Jesus Christ   dwelling among us all  being  both the  Master/LORD  of the dead and living ,

    as He changes us from the dead or sleeping in Adam     to  become  apart of  the Living  in   GOD   fully .   

[jabcat]

Good post rose.  I like what you wrote about the scriptures.

It's in line with what I've been thinking on since reading Joe's post - "what do the scriptures say"?

A few things to consider.  I don't believe someone ONLY fully man could redeem the rest of mankind.  I believe there's evidence Jesus is recorded as being God (Divine, Deity, the same Substance of the Father) while walking on earth.  Taken for something I posted elsewhere, from gotquestions.org.  "Jesus' words in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." We need only to look at the Jews' reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: "You, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one," He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth ... before Abraham was born, I am!" Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus' deity: "The Word [Jesus] was God" and "the Word became flesh" (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'" The Father refers to Jesus as "O God," indicating that Jesus is indeed God."

On the other hand, regarding the 'man' part.  I honestly haven't looked.  Are there clear scriptures that say Jesus was a man (besides Him calling Himself Son of man)?  I mean our human logic would presume that since he walked, talked, appeared to be, breathed, etc. that He was a "man".  But since God can do whatever He chooses to do and be whatever He chooses to be, again, what do the scriptures say?  Maybe this will encourage some further thought and seeking.  Blessings.

[rosered]

   Amen ,  :HeartThrob:
I sure hope so too   James , 
That it can be   thought out better and searched  into  by others  ,
  I do appreciate   what Joe and you have contributed   , it helps me   also  look closer  and consider things that have never crossed my mind before .

Jesus Christ said, Ask anything in my name and it will be done unto you

John 14 12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do;

because I go to the Father. 13"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

and we have Jesus   speaking to the samaritan woman at the well   , explaining the  living waters   to her  , these are the voices from above gathered already  in my opinion   already in Christ
and How we are   given in John 4  a huge revelation  to me ...  and Love  this   truth
  Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

" Jesus *said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth;

for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

   For me this is directly from the heart    , the seat of all things  and how the mind  reacts   to what is in our hearts  already   

  Jesus Christ said ,  AND I  , IF I  AM  lifted up  from  the earth    , WILL  DRAW all men  to MYSELF ..  John 12

...31"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

" 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

hypsoō
Pronunciation
hü-pso'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From ὕψος (G5311)
TDNT Reference
8:606,1241
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
to lift up on high, to exalt

metaph.

to raise to the very summit of opulence and prosperity

to exalt, to raise to dignity, honour and happiness

The  WORD IS TRUTH   ,     and the name given in the earth is the Lord Jesus Christ  , by the Spirit of Truth  [ both witness  about  each other  as ONE ]
  but  there is so much more      to seek and look into and search out     

I was surprised to learn    about   the      Message to the Church in Philadelphia   recently   by a brother  and such a promise     it thrilled me !!  Rev 3


...11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

12'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,

and he will not go out from it anymore;

and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God,

and My new name.



13'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' 


Than I saw in  Rev  19  also the name being the WORD OF GOD  as TRUTH

...12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.


13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses....

  Very mysterious     to me as the name of the Lord Jesus Christ under heaven  as only true salvation comes   but ,  the name in heaven is the WORD OF GOD , being the LORD of lords and KING of kings    and  a  victorious  truth     and  is this HIS  new name   being the WORD OF GOD ? or is there    still more to learn   and understand  TRUTH  much deeper still ?

  We wait on the truth to be revealed  in us all   by the Spirit and Word of truth .

I think of Pilate asking Jesus  ''what is truth ?''       he asked   well    in my opinion  , Jesus was silent  before his accusers

but Pilate found no fault in JESUS     again  pilate done well .

  John 18 ...37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered,


"You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth.

Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."


38Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, "I find no guilt in Him.


39"But you have a custom that I release someone for you at the Passover; do you wish then that I release for you the King of the Jews?"...

THE TRUTH sets us free , but the lies bind us  all  .

[lastpost]

I do like what has appeared here, thank you to all contributors.

Bearing in mind my limited capacity to understand the things of GOD, may I humbly suggest another aspect to consider: the word 'Purity' and what it represents, and I beg a little scope if I use terms that mean other things to people, remembering that this is one point of view.

It seems to me that it was as a human being that the Messiah was to appear – Yeshua, Jesus. A human like any other, and in doing so man was to receive, amongst other gifts:

The perfect example to follow and learn from regarding the perfect spiritual for man.

The ability to see, through the Light of the world, Christ, the precise reflection of GOD - the exact image of Deity, so that man, in his darkness, should be able to reach out and understand his GOD as never before.

The only One who could face the hardest temptations of this world and conquer and overcome them.

The only One who was able to bear the burdens of the whole world upon His shoulders right up to the Cross and gain victory on behalf of all of humanity.

To do this He would have to be Pure as GOD is Pure.

To reflect the exact Purity of GOD, so the mind, heart and soul of the man Jesus of Nazareth would also have to be perfect – Jesus would have to be Pure in every way so that His soul would match in every degree the GOD within Him. And at the same time Jesus would also have to be a human like any other human.

So the Holy Spirit started the life into which the Christ of GOD might take on a human form as a man.

There have been holy men and women, but there has only ever been One, and there will only ever be One, who was totally Pure as Jesus was Pure. His life, point by point, from childhood to the end as far as the physical was concerned, was perfect, and it stands out alone compared to any other. The Purity of the human being Jesus was such that it was countless times more Pure than the holiest saint.

As a human He was to know suffering, but suffering in a way no other human was to have to go through. He possessed a sensitiveness so that even as a child He was sensing the pain of those around Him, even the silent tears of His mother which He knew she was trying to hide from Him for His sake as a mother would do.

And through this suffering, so He unfolded the Godhead, uniting His soul with the Godhead to perfection – the only One who could ever do this to the perfect degree, and unlimited power was there for His use.

But as a man He did this, a perfect man with untainted Purity, and yet a man with feelings, emotions, and temptations a hundred fold those of any other man. And it could be said by some that, if GOD were ever to demonstrate that He knew what it was to feel like a man, then it was found in the complete union of Jesus the man with GOD and GOD with the man Jesus.

And as He was the perfect demonstration of a man, so even as a man there was to be a time when, for a brief moment, He was to undergo complete and total isolation from both man and GOD alike, and so came the cry of being forsaken by GOD on the Cross, as the connection between Himself and His Godhead was severed. Now, when all things are added up together by the man who claims that his GOD does not know how he feels, he will have to rethink his claim and face a wider truth.

So:

If someone wishes to consider that the Son of GOD, Christ (although He was with GOD in the beginning and through whom the Father wrought this creation), cannot be GOD the Supreme Almighty Being who is transcendent to all phenomenal creation due to His Purity which cannot bear to look upon iniquity...then there is an aspect of truth in this.

Similarly, if someone wishes to consider that the man Jesus the Christ and the Supreme Almighty Being GOD were One in perfect unity and perfect Purity when He walked the Earth 2,000 years ago, then there is also an aspect of truth in this.

Everybody sees things from their own perspective and works it out for themselves and makes it their own. 

As for me personally, I would go so far as to say that Christ, out of His love, laid aside His right to the Godhead, leaving behind any privileges which would have given him an advantage over men in the flesh, and that He bound Himself so that, like a man, He was subject to all of the laws of creation in the same manner as a man in the flesh is bound to them, He knew very well what the weariness of the fleshly tabernacle felt like, and His perfect mind was also subject to the burdens that the minds of men are subject to.

So, with my limited understanding, it is my opinion that GOD, through Christ Jesus, in many aspects, brought about the ability for Himself to walk the Earth.

GOD is, after all, ineffable, inexpressible, indescribable - and yet, for someone with the limited understanding that I have, in Jesus the Christ I have the most accessible, expressed and described likeness of GOD available to me.

†

[joeteekay]

Very well put lastpost.  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Very well put lastpost.  :thumbsup:

Yes ,me too !!I agree   Joe    well put Lastpost!   :HeartThrob:

[lastpost]

Now, when all things are added up together by the man who claims that his GOD does not know how he feels, he will have to rethink his claim and face a wider truth.

And perhaps paradoxically to my limited understanding, if a man claims that because Jesus was GOD He had an unfair advantage over him, then he will have to rethink his claim because as a man Jesus triumphed.

[eaglesway]

Great article. Wave theory and quantum theory are really proof that in the beginning God created all things by separating the "waters". He spoke and the quanta reorganized from "formless and void" into light and darkness, heavens above and heavens below, dryland and oceans and seas and rivers and lakes, and then finally, living creatures.

By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that that which is invisible is greater than that which is seen.

Quanta is "God-stuff", the fundamental substance from which He makes all things visible and invisible, physical and spiritual.

Awesome stuff :o)

Scientists know the what but not the how or the why.

God, having spoken many times and in many ways in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
has in these last times spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the ages;
who being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his substance and all things hold together by the word of his power Hebrews 1