Aionios and the problem with Limited Duration

[trettep]

Aionios is often described by those of the UR crowd as having "limited duration".  Yet we read in the Bible that God is Aionios.

I'm a universalist.  I do not believe in Universal Restoration.  Because I believe for something to be restored it has to be first be dismantled or disfigured, etc..  And I don't believe that is concert with the Bible.

When people think about aionios they assume it must have a duration.  But the word really doesn't speak to the END point of the duration at all.  In fact, that end point is CONCEALED from us just what lies beyond the horizon.  So when you think of the word Aionios, realize that what it really is telling you is that something shall CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the AGE (AION or EON) but doesn't tell you how much further it shall continue beyond that boundary.

Let's consider a particular verse:

Mat_25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both of the words in bold above are derived from the Greek word aionios. 

Since aionios describes something that CONTINUES BEYOND THE AGE BOUNDARY, then we can see that the punishment referenced above is going to be punishment that CONTINUES after this age but it does NOT tell us how long that duration is.  Likewise it shows us that those that have done righteous are going to have LIFE CONTINUING after this age.

So as you can see there is no "limited duration" attributed to the word aionios.  JUST AS there is ALSO no ETERNAL duration attributed to it either.  It simply means that something shall continue beyond the age boundary.

Let's take another example from scripture:

Rom_16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

In the verse above the bolded part is AIONIOS.  Noticed the translators used a whole phrase here to define the meaning here to fit this one word into the context. 

What this tells us is that the secret was a secret that continued to exist beyond the age boundary, so in essence here the secret was a secret before the age.  See how this understanding fits?  No contradiction. 

Now, after you understand this then you realize that often the focus is being given NOT to what is going to happen far far after this age but what is happening is that it is placing your focus on the end of this age and what is going to happen next which is the coming of the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hope that helps.

[sheila]

 :Chinscratch:  I know that there is a time and purpose for everything under heaven...and that there will be those that seek to change

times and seasons......which would make them false-prophets...such as those who say 'peace,peace' when there is no peace..as God

ordains times for war and peace under Heaven.  A time to give up as lost...and a time to to gather.....

   Israel was a fig tree that did not bear fruit[it was not the season for figs] thus something out of time/or season for their age....and

to these He comes as a thief  in the night/out of season=a day and hour you thought not.

  Thus...though He who would take away their sin..and be their saviour was at hand...and a new time/grace covenant would convene

those out of season continued under law...and haveing missed the time of 'peace' continued in the age of wrath and desolation


  some times come early...'did you come before the appointed time to torment us?" and some late...'the Bridegroom was delayed"

      therefore...WATCH.....

   I mean..here we are in a time..when the vast majority of christendom/babylon is preaching judgement and destruction...and

we are Preaching the salvation of all and the return of the Lord and deliverance of all men into the image of Christ!

   the two edged sword/judgement/salvation...divides unto.the dividing..of ...time,times..and half a time.

[marie glen]

That is helpful!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I think it is part of what EW was saying in his post a while back about the Hebrew word "olam"..

It's very subtle! :goodpost:

[2KnowHim]

Hi everyone,

I read this a while back and thought it would help with understanding "aionios".

The destruction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.

Eternal often refers to the permanence of the result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Blessings

[rosered]

Hi everyone,

I read this a while back and thought it would help with understanding "aionios".

The destruction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.

Eternal often refers to the permanence of the result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Blessings

    Hi   2Know Him ,

wow !!    yes      ,,,, love how you worded this  sis  !!..   the permanent Results!!!!   amen !! :banana: :banana:

We see the same permanent   results over the duration   of the ages        till the END  which is Christ from the beginning

Matt 28 The Great Commission
...19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,[ baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you]  ; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

     

[trettep]

Hi everyone,

I read this a while back and thought it would help with understanding "aionios".

The destruction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.

Eternal often refers to the permanence of the result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Blessings

But that understanding doesn't fit the usage of the word in the context. Additionally since the word is an adjective based on the root aion it presents problems.  For example, the Bible says that all ages are created.

Additionally, there is a gross mishandling of the word "eternal" seen in debating this subject with others.  It either means "no beginning and no ending" or people are using it to say "a beginning but no ending".    Again, if we go with the latter then it is a defamation to describe God as one how has "a beginning but no ending".    Therefore, I don't associate the word "eternal" with the word "aionios" at all because I believe that eternal describes something with no beginning and no ending.  And I don't think that aionios describes either of those two descriptions but rather as explained before that aionios is describing something that continues beyond the age boundary.

[rosered]

Hi everyone,

I read this a while back and thought it would help with understanding "aionios".

The destruction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.

Eternal often refers to the permanence of the result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Blessings

But that understanding doesn't fit the usage of the word in the context. Additionally since the word is an adjective based on the root aion it presents problems.  For example, the Bible says that all ages are created.

Additionally, there is a gross mishandling of the word "eternal" seen in debating this subject with others.  It either means "no beginning and no ending" or people are using it to say "a beginning but no ending".    Again, if we go with the latter then it is a defamation to describe God as one how has "a beginning but no ending".    Therefore, I don't associate the word "eternal" with the word "aionios" at all because I believe that eternal describes something with no beginning and no ending.  And I don't think that aionios describes either of those two descriptions but rather as explained before that aionios is describing something that continues beyond the age boundary.

  I do believe   2KNOW HIM  is speaking a spiritual language    brother ,
     and the greeks  don't have a clue  :laughing7: Titus 1:12  greeks /cretans

  I am not trying to be  petty here at all      , 
  We just believe what we know and share it with others     
God bless you   

   Jesus said HE IS THE  BEGINNING AND END    THE alpha  and Omega    the  contents   of all things are HELD IN CHRIST   the Lord of the living and dead   

  That is a  circular  to  me with   complete    PERFECT  results    , CONCLUSION  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

great points...I do believe God shall make a believer out of all men..using both negative and positive..and shall utterly destroy all unbelief

     ...however long it takes..God knows....

[darryl]

Aionios is often described by those of the UR crowd as having "limited duration".  Yet we read in the Bible that God is Aionios.

I'm a universalist.  I do not believe in Universal Restoration.  Because I believe for something to be restored it has to be first be dismantled or disfigured, etc..  And I don't believe that is concert with the Bible.

When people think about aionios they assume it must have a duration.  But the word really doesn't speak to the END point of the duration at all.  In fact, that end point is CONCEALED from us just what lies beyond the horizon.  So when you think of the word Aionios, realize that what it really is telling you is that something shall CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the AGE (AION or EON) but doesn't tell you how much further it shall continue beyond that boundary.

Let's consider a particular verse:

Mat_25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both of the words in bold above are derived from the Greek word aionios. 

Since aionios describes something that CONTINUES BEYOND THE AGE BOUNDARY, then we can see that the punishment referenced above is going to be punishment that CONTINUES after this age but it does NOT tell us how long that duration is.  Likewise it shows us that those that have done righteous are going to have LIFE CONTINUING after this age.

So as you can see there is no "limited duration" attributed to the word aionios.  JUST AS there is ALSO no ETERNAL duration attributed to it either.  It simply means that something shall continue beyond the age boundary.

Let's take another example from scripture:

Rom_16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

In the verse above the bolded part is AIONIOS.  Noticed the translators used a whole phrase here to define the meaning here to fit this one word into the context. 

What this tells us is that the secret was a secret that continued to exist beyond the age boundary, so in essence here the secret was a secret before the age.  See how this understanding fits?  No contradiction. 

Now, after you understand this then you realize that often the focus is being given NOT to what is going to happen far far after this age but what is happening is that it is placing your focus on the end of this age and what is going to happen next which is the coming of the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hope that helps.

its interesting to see how 'aionios' is used in the LXX (Septuagint) Greek translation of the Old Testament...its crucial how its used in the LXX because the LXX was many times quoted from by Jesus and the writers of the New Testament (therefore the Septuagint is an authoritative translation ) ..anyway, its interesting that 'aionios' is the Greek word chosen to transliterate 'olam' in the  LXX Old Testament.'Aionios' appears hundreds of times in the Septuagint and its very informative studying the different verses, passages and contexts where it appears.

[marie glen]

Hi everyone,

I read this a while back and thought it would help with understanding "aionios".

The destruction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.

Eternal often refers to the permanence of the result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Blessings

Aha! That is very helpful too!  :thumbsup: :dsunny:

Additionally, there is a gross mishandling of the word "eternal" ..."no beginning and no ending"

  That's true.. there's only one solitary thing which is "eternal" and "everlasting" and that is God Himself... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Hi everyone,

I read this a while back and thought it would help with understanding "aionios".

The destruction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.

Eternal often refers to the permanence of the result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Blessings

Aha! That is very helpful too!  :thumbsup: :dsunny:

Additionally, there is a gross mishandling of the word "eternal" ..."no beginning and no ending"

  That's true.. there's only one solitary thing which is "eternal" and "everlasting" and that is God Himself... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

:thumbsup: :thanks:

[jugghead]

Hi everyone,

I read this a while back and thought it would help with understanding "aionios".

The destruction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.

Eternal often refers to the permanence of the result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Blessings

But that understanding doesn't fit the usage of the word in the context. Additionally since the word is an adjective based on the root aion it presents problems.  For example, the Bible says that all ages are created.

Additionally, there is a gross mishandling of the word "eternal" seen in debating this subject with others.  It either means "no beginning and no ending" or people are using it to say "a beginning but no ending".    Again, if we go with the latter then it is a defamation to describe God as one how has "a beginning but no ending".    Therefore, I don't associate the word "eternal" with the word "aionios" at all because I believe that eternal describes something with no beginning and no ending.  And I don't think that aionios describes either of those two descriptions but rather as explained before that aionios is describing something that continues beyond the age boundary.

For me ..... because it "IS" an adjective is why what 2knowhim said makes perfect sense

An adjective describes a noun .... the noun being the focus of what is being described ..... for example: "eternal judgement" ..... judgment is the result of what is being described by the adjective .... it is understanding it as "permanent judgment", a permanent result

and because God loves all and will draw all men unto Himself .... that is a permanent judgment by the Father that it will take place ..... it is the same as a promise

To thank the Father for His "Eternal Judgment" is to give the glory to whom it belongs .... for Christ Himself is that eternal judgment for it is only through Him that His result becomes permanent for all

[greg]

Nice post.

Here is a thought exercise before limiting aionios to the temporal domain - How do you say "worlds" (plural) in Greek? 

The word aionios is inherently mysterious and beyond the horizon of time and space to the perspective of the observer.  It is humbling to know that the Hebrew noun 'olam is related or derived from the verb 'alam, which means "to hide," "keep secret," or "obscure."  This word history suggests olam is meant to be a saga of uncovering something hidden or confusing. 
 
Here's another thought exercise, say: "an age of worlds"?  or "a world of ages"?

[darryl]

with thanks to Luke Kessler http://makepeacewithjesus.org/6-the-septuagint-part-1

aion and aionios were used in the New Testament in ways that do not mean endless.  This blog will introduce how these 2 Greek words were used in the Septuagint.

The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, and was quoted by the authors of the New Testament anytime they referenced the Old Testament writings.  It was also the main translation in use during the time of Christ.  For those who spoke Greek (which was the universal language at the time), this was how they knew the Scriptures.  Understanding how the Septuagint uses aion and aionios to translate the Old Testament will help clarify for us the meaning of these 2 words, as well as reveal how the people at that time understood them.  This, as I have stated before, is important because these words are at the core of the issue regarding whether judgment for the wicked is endless or merely for an age.

So, to begin with, any interpretation of the teachings in the New Testament ought to be understood from a Hebrew mindset, not a Roman mindset.  When the Bible speaks of the "adoption as sons," it is referring to the Hebrew practice, not the Roman practice (an unfortunate oversight in the Son-ship teachings within the Church).  All the people who were involved in Judaism, during the time that Christ and His apostles ministered, understood Scripture from a Hebrew mindset.  However, the common and dominant language was Greek not Hebrew.  Hence, the New Testament as we have it is an expression of the Hebrew culture through the Greek language.

The Septuagint was translated around 300 BC, long before Jesus arrived.  It is many times referred to as LXX, which are the Roman Numerals for 70, because tradition states that 70 scholars translated it.  Tradition also states that all 70 of these scholars translated it independent of each other, but when they came together to compare notes, they had all translated it the same!  So the Greek translation was considered divinely inspired.  That, however, is probably a myth – and beside the point.   The point is – many people in Jesus' day understood the Old and New Testaments through the Septuagint.  They understood the words and teachings of the New Testament from how those same words were used in the Septuagint.

So it is pertinent that we understand how the Septuagint uses Greek words to translate the Old Testament in order for us to understand specifically the cultural mindset of the people that the New Testament was written to.  The words aion and aionios, were used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word olam.  The noun aion is used 349 times and the adjective aionios is used 110 times; in all but 4 occasions (note that, only 4!) it is the translation of the Hebrew word olam.  Which means that aion was used for no other word than olam.  This gives the Hebrew word olam almost exclusive defining rights to the Greek word aion; thus the 2 words are interchangeable.

This blog will focus on defining what olam means in order that we can see the connection to aion.  The next blog is where we will look at the usage of the words aion and aionios in the Septuagint.

Lets get started; Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon tells us that olam means,

"What is hidden; specially hidden time, long; the beginning or end of which is either uncertain or else not defined."

J. W. Haley in his work An Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible says:

"The Hebrew word 'Olam' rendered 'forever,' does not imply the metaphysical idea of absolute endlessness, but a period of indefinite length, as Rambach says, a very long time, the end of which is hidden from us." (p. 216)

Parkhurst's Lexicon states that,

"Olam seems to be used much more for an indefinite than for an infinite time."

The Encyclopedia Dictionary of the Bible (Catholic Bible Dictionary), under Eternity, says,

"The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gn. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as 'forever,' means in itself no more than 'for an indefinitely long period.' Thus, 'me olam' does not mean 'from eternity' but 'of old' (Gn. 6:4, etc.).  In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam." (p. 693)

Dr. Bullinger's Appendix 129 to The Companion Bible, says this about olam

"The Hebrew [word] olam . . . denotes indefinite, unknown or concealed duration (an age); just as we speak of 'the patriarchal age,' or 'the golden age,' etc."

Dr. Beecher observes, in his book Christian Union, that,

"We find, since there are many ages, or periods, that [Olam] is used in the plural.  Moreover, since one great period or age can comprehend under it subordinate ages, we find such expressions as an age of ages, or an Olam of Olams, and other reduplications.  In some cases, however, the reduplication of Olam seems to be a rhetorical amplification of the idea, without any comprehension of ages by a greater age.  This is especially true when olam is in the singular in both parts of the reduplication, as 'To the age of the age.'" (Italics mine)

Again Dr. Beecher notes that,

"The use of the word in the plural is decisive evidence that the sense of the word is not eternity, in the absolute sense, for there can be but one such eternity. But as time past and future can be divided by ages, so there may be many ages, and an age of ages."

It does not take much time to discover that the idea of eternity did not exist in certain if not most ancient cultures.  They expressed everything with the idea of eras or ages. As The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. IV, under Time says,

"The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for 'eternity which one could contrast with 'temporality.' The word aion originally meant 'vital force,' 'life;' then 'age,' 'lifetime.' It is, however, also used generally of a limited or unlimited long space of time. The use of the word aion is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX (Septuagint).  Aion means 'long distant uninterrupted time' in the past (Luke 1:10), as well as in the future (John 4:14)." (p. 643)

Lange's Commentary American Edition, Vol. V, commenting on the Hebrew word olam, translated by the Septuagint as aion in Ecclesiastes 1:4 states that,

"The preacher, in contending with the Universalist, or Restorationist, would commit an error, and, it may be, suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words, aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that, of themselves, they necessarily carry the meaning of endless duration." (p. 48)

Rev. G. Bennet in his incredible treatise Olam Haneshamoth says,

"The primary nature of Olam is 'hidden,' and both as to past and future denotes a duration that is unknown." (p. 44.)

Rev. J.S. Blunt in the Dictionary of Theology under the entry Eternity; says,

"The conception of Eternity in the Semitic languages is that of a long duration and series of ages."

On page 62 of Dr. J.W. Hansen's short but comprehensive book Aion-Aionios, he quotes a scholar from the Christian Examiner (Sept. 1830, pp. 25,26), but gives no name,

"Aiónios is a word of sparing occurrence among ancient classical Greek writers; nor is it by any means the common term employed by them to signify eternal. On the contrary, they much more frequently make use of aidios (not aionios)...To me it appears that the Seventy (Septuagint), by choosing aiónios to represent olam, testify that they did not understand the Hebrew word to signify eternal. Had they so understood it, they would certainly have translated it by some more decisive word; some term, which, like aidios (again not anionios) is more commonly employed in Greek, to signify that which has neither beginning nor end."  (parenthesis mine)

And lastly, but most beautifully, Jeff Benner describes the Hebrew word olam in his book, The Living Words; Volume One.  You can also find it at his website:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html

In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time.  (pgs. 34-37)

As before, there are many more scholars I could quote on the subject, but for the sake of time and your attention, I will refrain.  But I hope that it is somewhat clear to see that even in the Old Testament, there was not an understanding of eternity or endlessness.  Rather, there was a concept of ages; or even grander, ages of ages.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup:

[darryl]

Hi everyone,

I read this a while back and thought it would help with understanding "aionios".

The destruction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent.

Eternal often refers to the permanence of the result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Blessings

true but it goes deeper than that..please do not forget the importance of the Septuagint in these discussions.

The Septuagint is critically important in understanding how the people to whom the New Testament was written understood its teachings.  For it was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament (Greek being the universal language at that time), in use by the Jews of Jesus time.

  Of the 459 times that the Septuagint uses aionios and aion to translate a Hebrew word – 455 times that word is olam.  So its safe to say that the definition of aionios will be similar to the definition of olam.  And we have seen that as nouns both aion and olam generally refer to an age, or as adjectives – age long.

We will now look at some instances of how the Septuagint uses aion and aionios to translate olam.  Note: There are literally hundreds of verses that I could use here, the following, is but a tiny sampling.  If anyone has a Bible Study program with The Hebrew Old Testament and the Septuagint, you could easily look up every reference for yourself.  In some instances, after I quote the verse, I will add a comment below it to point out that the idea of it meaning forever simply doesn't work.

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old (aionios), men of renown."  (Genesis 6:4)

Mighty men of eternity?

"Those from among you will rebuild the ancient (aionios) ruins; you will raise up the age-old (aionios) foundations; and you will be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of the streets in which to dwell."  (Isaiah 58:12)

How do you rebuild an eternal ruin?

"For My people have forgotten Me, They burn incense to worthless gods and they have stumbled from their ways, from the ancient (aionios) paths, to walk in bypaths, not on a highway, to make their land a desolation, an object of perpetual (aionios) hissing; everyone who passes by it will be astonished And shake his head." (Jeremiah 18:15,16)

"You shall also observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as a permanent (aionios) ordinance." (Exodus 12:17)

"The priestly sons of Aaron, moreover, shall blow the trumpets; and this shall be for you a perpetual (aionios) statute throughout your generations." (Numbers 10:8)

These all obviously are not still happening.

"The prophets who were before me and before you from ancient (aion) times prophesied against many lands and against great kingdoms, of war and of calamity and of pestilence."  (Jeremiah 28:8)

How were these long dead prophets from eternal times?

"I descended to the roots of the mountains.  The earth with its bars was around me forever (aion), but You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God."  (Jonah 2:6)

Jonah says here that he was in the belly of the whale "forever," but we know it was only for 3 days.

"Behold, these are the wicked; and at ease forever (aion), they have increased in wealth."  (Psalm 73:12)

We know that the Bible also talks about the wicked's prosperity coming to an end and that they will be judged for their deeds, so they cannot be at ease forever.

"No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, they shall not enter the assembly of the LORD forever (aion)."  (Deuteronomy 23:3)

Here "forever" only lasts until the 10th generation.

"But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, 'I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever (aion).'"  (1 Samuel 1:22)

Samuel did not live in the temple forever.

"Therefore, the leprosy of Naaman shall cling to you and to your descendants forever (ton aion). So he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow..."  (2 Kings 5:27)

Perhaps this is still true, perhaps Gehazi's descendents to this day still all suffer from leprosy, but I doubt it.  Leprosy has mostly been eradicated.

"Remember the former things long (aion) past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me," (Isaiah 46:9)

How can they be 'forever' past?

"For the enemy has persecuted my soul; he has crushed my life to the ground; he has made me dwell in dark places, like those who have long (aion) been dead."  (Psalm 143:3)

It is not possible for them to have been dead forever.  The same exact phrase is found in Lamentations 3:6.

"You, O LORD, rule forever (aion); Your throne is from generation to generation." (Lamentations 5:19)

This is a form of poetry known as Hebrew Parallelism.  It is when you say something, and then repeat it, but with different words.  The second line is equal to first.  So here "forever" (or aion) means the same thing as "from generation to generation."

"then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever (aion)."  (Deuteronomy 15:17)

He will really only be able to be a servant until he dies.

David wrote in a Psalm about God's blessings upon him as a king.  One of the blessings was for his length of life to be extended.

"He asked life of You, You gave it to him, length of days forever and ever (eis aiona aionos."  (Psalm 21:4)

But we know that David didn't live forever; he died.  We also know that nobody's earthly life will last forever.

Speaking to the nation of Judah God says,

"I will put an everlasting (aionios) reproach on you and an everlasting (aionios) humiliation which will not be forgotten."  (Jeremiah 32:40)

But God also says later on that,

"after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, all of Israel will be saved."  (Romans 11:25,26.)

So their "eternal" reproach and humiliation is only for a limited duration.

Speaking about the sun, moon and stars in Psalm 148:1-6 David declares that,

"[God] has also established them forever and ever (ton aiona tou aionos – to the age of the ages); He has made a decree which will not pass away."

And yet the Bible says that all these things will pass away one day (see Luke 21:33; Hebrews 1:11,12 and 2 Peter 3:10).

The Hebrew and Greek languages use these words (aion, aionios and olam) to speak of 'days of old,' (Deuteronomy 32:7; Isaiah 63:9; Amos 9:11 and etc...) 'generations of old,' (Isaiah 51:9) 'people of old,' (Ezekiel 26:20) not to mention that David's seed is said to endure "forever," (Psalm 89:4) his throne is to be "forever" and his house is to continue "forever;" (2 Samuel 7:16; 1 Kings 2:45 and etc...) the Passover is also declared to endure "forever."  (Exodus 12:24)

In Isaiah 32:14, the forts and towers were to be "dens forever, until the spirit is poured upon us."  The smoke of Idumea was to ascend forever, (Isaiah 34:10) though it no longer rises.  The priesthood of Aaron was to exist forever (Exodus 40:15; Numbers 25:13; Leviticus 16:34) and continue through everlasting duration; but Christ's priesthood replaced it.  Solomon's temple was to last forever (1 Chronicles 17:12), although it has long since ceased to be; and was really replaced by the new temple of our body.

As I said above, there are literally hundreds of verses that we could look at, which we don't have time for, but I think that what little I have shown gives you a good sense of how the Septuagint uses the words aion and aionios.

This is how the Greek speaking Jews in the time of Jesus understood these words.  Not in the sense of endlessness, but in the sense of an age,belonging to an age, or something 'hidden' or 'just over the horizon' or even' just over the horizon and further on'.

Here's a pertinent point /question...wouldn't the Jewish and Greek speaking Christians of the early church  been mighty confused if 'aionios' meant something to do with 'age' in the Greek Septuagint Old Testament but meant 'eternal' and 'never- ending' in the Greek New Testament ?...when did this supposed change in meaning take place ?...the ECTers claim that the meaning of 'aionios' changed to mean 'eternal' but there's absolutely no evidence of this.

Why wont the proponents of ECT take into account the crucial evidence of the Greek translation of the OT?..the Septuagint ?.

Just goes to show how biased they are, not to even consider this crucial evidence.

This evidence is the death knell for the idea that 'aionios' always meant 'eternal' in the minds of the writers of the New Testament.

[eaglesway]

That is helpful!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I think it is part of what EW was saying in his post a while back about the Hebrew word "olam"..

It's very subtle! :goodpost:

Yes, that is very close to what i was saying concerning "olam", from which aionos is drawn. Not limited or unlimited per say, but other and beyond.

This where the element of 'world" comes into it as in 'worlds without end" or in the 'world to come". It is not just duration of time but of another realm, dimension, state of being.

"Brothers and sisters we kno not yet what we shall be, but we kno that when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as he is".

But, as it is written,

"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
    nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him"—
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.  For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.  And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual

This goes beyond translation into understanding. The loss of this understanding is the reason for the gross mis-translations that abound.

The only difference i have is that i see olam as defined in connection with the subject it references, including duration, so when referencing God, or the life of the resurrection, I believe it includes the concept of "infinitely beyond" and as I understand it from seaching its occurences(over 450) in interlinears and lexicons, the hebrews often doubled it- "olam olam"- to give that indication.

In deuteronomy 15;17

then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life(olam).

There is the element of duration, but it is, as always with "olam", unforseeable duration(the servant could live two weeks or 80 more years).

In genesis 6;4 "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old(olam-of times afar off, or the ancient world), men of renown.

Again an element of duration is included, but it is beyond specific definition.

In Genesis 21:33

Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Eternal God(el yhwh olam)

This could be "God of all worlds" or "God of all ages". I happen to think in this instance, the "Eternal God" is fine because, for me, the word 'eternal" is more appropriate than "everlasting". To me eternal gives more the sense of transcending time and the wges and or worlds to come, ages and worlds "other and beyond".

What I appreciate most about treteps post is this.

The insistence by some UR proponents that "aion" always means a period of time with a beginning and an end does not, imo, stand up to scrutiny, and therefore, diminishes the UR apologetic when presented that way to real scholars of the languages of antiquity. Aion comes from the thought expressed by the word "olam" because it was Hebrew minds, thoughts, language that the gospel came forth from.

Selah lol.

[darryl]

That is helpful!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I think it is part of what EW was saying in his post a while back about the Hebrew word "olam"..

It's very subtle! :goodpost:

Yes, that is very close to what i was saying concerning "olam", from which aionos is drawn. Not limited or unlimited per say, but other and beyond.

This where the element of 'world" comes into it as in 'worlds without end" or in the 'world to come". It is not just duration of time but of another realm, dimension, state of being.


This goes beyond translation into understanding. The loss of this understanding is the reason for the gross mis-translations that abound.

The only difference i have is that i see olam as defined in connection with the subject it references, including duration, so when referencing God, or the life of the resurrection, I believe it includes the concept of "infinitely beyond" and as I understand it from seaching its occurences(over 450) in interlinears and lexicons, the hebrews often doubled it- "olam olam"- to give that indication.

In deuteronomy 15;17

then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life(olam).

There is the element of duration, but it is, as always with "olam", unforseeable duration(the servant could live two weeks or 80 more years).

In genesis 6;4 "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old(olam-of times afar off, or the ancient world), men of renown.

Again an element of duration is included, but it is beyond specific definition.

In Genesis 21:33

Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Eternal God(el yhwh olam)

This could be "God of all worlds" or "God of all ages". I happen to think in this instance, the "Eternal God" is fine because, for me, the word 'eternal" is more appropriate than "everlasting". To me eternal gives more the sense of transcending time and the wges and or worlds to come, ages and worlds "other and beyond".

What I appreciate most about treteps post is this.

The insistence by some UR proponents that "aion" always means a period of time with a beginning and an end does not, imo, stand up to scrutiny, and therefore, diminishes the UR apologetic when presented that way to real scholars of the languages of antiquity. Aion comes from the thought expressed by the word "olam" because it was Hebrew minds, thoughts, language that the gospel came forth from.

Selah lol.

yes, amen..'aionios and olam..its so subtle...too subtle for many..the link 'tween 'olam' and 'aionios'?, it's a difficult concept to grasp and being difficult often gets a negative reaction from ECTers..sometimes i think im crazy cos i kinda 'feel' 'olam- aionios ,what it means,and i get it  but nobody else seems to get it..Im glad u guys do get it..sometimes its more about quality of life than duration ?..aionios life is the life of knowing God and Jesus, according to Jesus himself... :dsunny:

[marie glen]

..sometimes i get a sense of eternal present.. but then again can't quite put my finger on it! :laughing7: it's a bit fleeting.. lately though (speaking of 'time') days and weeks go by so fast.. I've been thinking about the life span of the first people, and by time a thousand years, the sunrises and sunsets must have seemed almost dizzying in their quickness.. and thinking about time makes me think about space.. and how we are traveling so very swiftly.. flying through the starry universe.. and all the while the planet spins.. then at other times, I want to sit on the ground and hold onto the grass, not because I feel dizzy or afraid :laughing7: but because my favorite sense of all is good, solid, down to earth (watch the carrots grow) (thanks for bearing with me and my little bit of fancy!) :dsunny:

[darryl]

..sometimes i get a sense of eternal present.. but then again can't quite put my finger on it! :laughing7: it's a bit fleeting.. lately though (speaking of 'time') days and weeks go by so fast.. I've been thinking about the life span of the first people, and by time a thousand years, the sunrises and sunsets must have seemed almost dizzying in their quickness.. and thinking about time makes me think about space.. and how we are traveling so very swiftly.. flying through the starry universe.. and all the while the planet spins.. then at other times, I want to sit on the ground and hold onto the grass, not because I feel dizzy or afraid :laughing7: but because my favorite sense of all is good, solid, down to earth (watch the carrots grow) (thanks for bearing with me and my little bit of fancy!) :dsunny:

yayaa...the passing of time, eternity etc are difficult concepts to grasp !  :banana: