An Inhuman God

[eaglesway]

my  :2c:   yes savage wolves..all men are sheep..all men are saved and receive free gift of righteousness and He shall take away

all the their sins[see Jesus seperate the people as a sheep from a goat[scapegoat]  yet some men want to throw the sheep into LOF.

casting out demons=Jesus seperating men/sheep from sin[azazel scapegoats=sin is a demon.

we don't cast out the sheep with demons[sin] into the LOF prepared for stan and his demons. Jesus the great shepherd will seperate

them.  I am a goat shepherdess..I am instructed to graze my flock of goats near the shepherd tents where there is highest light

..there Jesus shall seperate them from their sin and they are saved from the wicked one.

the man of sin /man of lawlessness shall be revealed..and sin is a demon.

certain men have raised up/slipped in unawares[man of sin] and encompassed the righteous..therefore sound judgement

does not go forth.

  we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..and we don't throw men in the LOF with the demons that have been possessing them.

  Jesus doesn't like that!

    the goat shepherdess has[SOS 4;2] teeth like a flock of sheep that are 'even shorn" which come up from the washing......

none of them are barren..everyone of them bear twins.

As I see it- We don't throw anybody anywhere, but whatever the lake of fire and gehenna represent,  many people will go through them as a result of the judgment to come.

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' Mt 25

This fire does not destroy the man, it separates the wheat from the chaff. The "wheat"(the person) is gathered. The chaff(carnal man/man of sin/body of this death) is consumed because light is fire to darkness.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence(in the sight) of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever(to ages of ages); and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev 14

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment(aionion correction), but the righteous into eternal life." Mt 25


Sin is not a demon, it is an action or attitude of a person that falls short of the glory of God. God is renewing people into the image of Christ so that they no longer fall short- but are forgiven and transformed. People who perish in rebellion-wicked sinners and predators of all kinds abound in this world, will stand before the face of the one whose eyes are as flames of fire- along with all His saints and angels. Demons who torment people or inspire and empower them to sin will also experiencethis "pyri aionion", along with the devil and any other rebellious principalities.

In all cases fire as a corrective force involves changing the heart, opening the eyes of the heart, breaking the chaff so that separation can begin, rending the veil of darkness death and deception.

"In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters."

"Let their be light" says God and separation begins, light from darkness.

His eyes were like a flame of fire........ and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength..Rev 1

12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


The LoF is about exposure and repentence, not torture, but it is to be feared.

"Blessed and Holy is the one who partakes in the first resurrection for over Him the second death has no power."

"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire(to pyr to aionion-(" the fire the age").

In other words, receive correction now or later :o)

"All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness". heb 12

Even believers will be tested by some measure of fire, but in my opinion this is different experience than that of the wicked and unrepentant in what Revelations refers to as the lake of fire.


Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

[CST]

about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile:

I agree.  Ken Vincent's article was interesting, and generally seems on track/informative etc. to me.  I will mention, he is a unitarian universalist (generalizing, "anything/any belief [or nothing] goes").  That's one reason Gary has made sure to distinguish between Tentmaker as a Christian/Biblical UR, vs. other forms of universalism, many of which don't even suggest a belief or personal faith in Jesus Christ.

I agree.
I dislike the word Universalist.  To most people it conveys some ideology in variance to what the Bible teaches.  It is true that the word Universalism is not found in the Bible.  The word brings to peoples minds a kind of new age thinking or an idea that the work of Christ is somehow diminished.  That also is unfortunate.  So I believe that Universalism is an inappropriate word when talking about God's plan for mankind.  Simply put: God through Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world. All will be saved. That is the simple truth that ultimately all will be saved and God will be ALL in all.

Why should we let other people ruin our word use through its misuse. Obviously we don't let the ruin the Word of God of God by misuse, do we? That we are trying to oppose.

God is:

Love of Wisdom AND Wisdom of Love ..... Love of Wisdom rules WITH Wisdom of Love .....  they rule together as One (equals)

Whereas in men:

love of wisdom rules OVER wisdom of love ..... which causes the division between the two

Oh, very nice and appropriately true and wise.

Oh Shelia ,  you   said it  ,

  It is the Holy Spirit as teacher  and comforter  after the lessons  learned  by testing our faith   

to master and rule over the sin in our bodies , as it is dead to sin  , but life in the Spirit is our hope this is why faith without works /  Holy Spirit  power    working though us  is dead !!!      oh my  gave a flood of many other things too ,  such as the    they cannot fast when the bridegroom is present , the  stones [hearts ]would cry out
  I was looking at  fasting and it was to do with     the power of  faith  and hope in the Spirit     making alive    the Word of God and powerful and moving and the bonding or union of Love   that death cannot separate

http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2902&t=KJV&page=2  wow !!    :HeartThrob:

Abstaining  from foods is eating  of the   tree of knowlege of good and evil!!! and keeping silent as the mouth is  shut ...  shutting the door and praying in secret

  This is what Jesus done in the wilderness 40 days and nights   when tempted of   the devil   being sent by the Holy  Spirit right after the     Jordan  , descent baptism  as the    was Pleased  fulfilling righteousness   under the law     / Jordan river .... 

He only used the WORD OF GOD   against satan to rebuke him   so  he had to flee    from His presence     perfecting faith  with the works of the law   though the    Holy Spirit of love    and deny the temptation to  exalt   Himself  above others  , by turning stones to bread or    given power over   the cities or throw Himself down   to tempt the   Father   , but become a servant to all   though He be the Only begotten , one of His kind ,  Son of God .

Jesus was about equality    and loving  all the same    , helping the lesser and putting the more equipped to help out more  , sharing and caring  in that same Love of God upon all   
  We saw Peter  needing help of  Jesus  and than  when he was converted "turned around "     to  help feed the sheep  because He loved  Jesus  , and  Jesus loved him first when he was   so needy   and sinner  saved by grace ..      Love works both  ways

:clapping: Yey, hooray!

I think God knows, from His perspective, what we are or are not capable of, from His perspective. We, if we are wise seek His face and endeavor to abide in Him, so that we can grow with the growth that comes from God through grace.

I believe that it is made simple for exactly that reason- because we do not have the perspective from which to figure everything out. "Abide in me"....."Watch and Pray"....."Walk in the Spirit"

Better to trust that He loves us, or he wouldnt have sent his son for us. He forgives us, or He wouldnt have hung on that cross for us. he understands our weakness, or he couldnt be that priest, ever making intercession for us in the presence of God.

This is wonderfully clear and truthful. Maybe you could put it somewhere more prominent.

[CST]

I think God knows, from His perspective, what we are or are not capable of, from His perspective. We, if we are wise seek His face and endeavor to abide in Him, so that we can grow with the growth that comes from God through grace.

I believe that it is made simple for exactly that reason- because we do not have the perspective from which to figure everything out. "Abide in me"....."Watch and Pray"....."Walk in the Spirit"

Better to trust that He loves us, or he wouldnt have sent his son for us. He forgives us, or He wouldnt have hung on that cross for us. he understands our weakness, or he couldnt be that priest, ever making intercession for us in the presence of God.

  Yes ,,   it took a while to write and am poor in writing skills  , thanks bro for saying something  in case I was not able too.

  :HeartThrob:  you are so right it is waiting on the Lord   and clinging to Him , He is our protection and our help in the hour of need . 

Thank you for the  opportunity to explain  more  CST , God bless you and all

Thanks, God bless you too. And everyone else. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

The gathering together of all things into one in Christ.

One of the main ways that the gospel of Jesus that UR folks believe gets seduced into things like unitarian universalism is the desire to eliminate the judgment and correction of God.

Anybody who thinks that everyone will get a free pass at the great White Throne is missing or ignoring or corrupting as much scripture as any "hellist" is, imo.

"Some save with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh".

I believe mercy triumphs over judgment, but judgment must be manifest in order to be triumphed over. For some this is displeasing, and their displeasure leads them to creating an alternate version of the gospel that is watered down and has no salt in it.  :2c:

[CST]

when that verse is read in the light if 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and 2 Cor 5;1-5 and Eph 1:9,10 it becomes so clear that I believe, from the tone of paul and John's writing, that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it. It was a part of the foundation doctrines they taught (see hebrews 6:1-3), it was the basic fabric of the doctrines of "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb 6:2) and was considered "elementary" "foundational" and "pure milk".

:2c:

" that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it."

Indeed  the clarity of why we are here was taught among the Jews. They were all taught the old testament by rote; there lifestyle fully included the remembrance of scriptures. Peter, although only a fisherman, knew every prophecy and history that had been recorded thus far.
They still know and learn the O.T The Pharisees hid there deception about there incident with Christ from the people.
Zecharaiah speaks how the Jews will wail when there eyes are opened.
I recall being in many tears when Christ was revealed correctly- how much He has actually suffered for us and done for us is incredible.
His actual depth of being able to identify with EVERY THING we go through because He was actually like us made more sense than the teaching of the church which claimed He was like us, yet overlooked things like in Isaiah 53 which describes how He will be detested and  looked down upon by the Jews when He first appears.

I.M.O if we look at this age as being the only part of the plan  before heaven or hell, then this all becomes a vague, pointless exercise.
When the purpose of right from wrong is linked to a system which works in progressive stages of development that involves every single person in the picture, having different roles to play, each learning at their own pace, with ONE teacher instead of many; then the precision to detail, the price actually paid for us all, makes sense for me.
The inhuman God becomes a master Who knows everything works together; each at it's own rate; till ALL are in the kingdom where true equality is through the one point of entry- Christ. He will wipe away EVERY tear.
When things make sense the reasoning releases the guilt, depression, inadequacy, failure and nails them all to the cross.
His love cannot be kept away from us by anything- death, nor life, nor any other thing can keep us from the love of God in Jesus Christ His son.

:happyclap: Hooray, yippee

:thumbsup:

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:13-18

That would be impartial wouldn't it? Or have I over reached?

Amen!! :thumbsup:

The gentleness is indeed awesome.
Just thinking of a little illustration;  When I gave my son a bike I was aware there would be mistakes, falls, loss of skin, a little pain here and there, as he was learning to ride. He learnt from those mistakes and now they  are rare, if at all. If I had not given him the bike he would not have learnt. Does that mean I do not love him? I think not. However there is so much to learn in the process.
And that is only a minute part of the whole process.
Bash him to bits to correct him and there would be constant fear and a sense of inadequacy or failing. Correcting him by pointing out what has happened and why, doing that in a gentle manner, made him listen. Still made mistakes, just does not live in fear while learning.

So Again, Amen!

:smile: Amen

[sheila]

sin is a demon..I met him...you will too..it is the work of the Holy spirit to convince the world of sin..and you will be convinced!!!

  I am not doing anything out of bitter envy or self-seeking..I am telling  all you this for your own good out of love.

  the Court has sit and it is time for the saints to inherit the kingdom..the man of sin will first be revealed/removed..the court letters are sent

out[the little scroll that taste like honey but makes your belly bitter]. Go to the Best Home/goodnewsinc..............get prepared........

  it is the DAY OF THE LORD and the man of sin is being revealed and all the judgements and the hour of trial..it's all going down.!

  I BEG YOU TO!!!! I entreat you with tears!!!!!!!.the watchers of the wall will remove your cloak/veil!!!!!!!!

it comes in upon a peaceful unsuspecting people dwelling without wall[He will take back His hedge from around you and you shall

see what has been restrained] :HeartThrob:  yes He loves you..yes He saves all men and only satan and demons are destroyed

[marie glen]

"it's a frightening thing to fall into the hands of the living God"! -- this is so very true.. and part of that, i think, occurs at Jesus' return.. the angels gather the sheep, but the goats are gathered to armageddon which, i believe, becomes a lake of fire (literal) due to, i think, [1] all that oil and [2] man's splitting of the atom..  One of Yahweh's paradoxes.. HE judges, yet what is experienced in large part is the result of one's own doings.. individual and collective..

I also believe we all were salted with fire.. and still are.. tho likely not as intense and as needed as at first.. (unless like sheep we wander off somewhere... then the shepherd will seek to bring us back and will correct us, He being high priest and knowing how to do so in each case). And of course, it's possible to be saved, but so as by fire (trial, calamity) and our works burned up (because they weren't His works).

I think Israel thought of Yahweh's judgment as fiery destruction, but earthly, and occurring during this lifetime.. I think there has to be a lake of fire in the age (day) of judgment and thereabouts.. (or always?) not as a place but as an element, and as EW has said, as a metaphor for being salted with fire (or that's how I remember it anyway, sorry if it's not very accurate! :doh: )

           the cleansing, the washing.. the tears.. which cleanse the heart.. Sometimes I just can't imAgine.. the heart wrenching that would occur if one has mistreated lots of people.. destroyed families.. harmed children.. people starving, people hurt.. living destitute.. oppressed, and in fear.. imagine seeing all the faces of those you had injured or even caused their death..

..most of us believers, i think, have our 'little' horrors, so to speak.. it's all the same thing - horror. Any little speck of it is death and the process of death and dissolution/decay.. the disease of the heart and mind.. (soul) ..that believers have repented and burned with shame over.. and cried bitter hot tears.. or struggled with God.. our own bitterness of the carnal/imperfect/lacking nature (which i think the demons come and fan the flames of.. kick a person when they're down.. have we all shook our fist at God in some way, at some time..?

How merciful and kind He is.

I think the biggest example of fiery judgment is described (by symbols, etc) in the book of revelation.. when mankind's towers built on sand come toppling down... hail of great size/debris? .."when they may see the smoke of her burning" rev 18:9.. all history gathered into one and culminating in the epic story and Yahweh's illustration to all in heaven and earth, what is good (life) from what is evil (non-life), so that all will fully understand that to wander from Him in any tiny way, can onLy ever end in self destruction.. He is, surely? life, and perfection.. and imperfect is the opposite of life. He built the rescue in from the foundation.. (how blessed we are to know, the rescue of all! :gsmile: He is totally able.)
:HeartThrob: :cloud9:

[sheila]

to receive His judgement and atonement..everyone needs to consider the atonement process in the law covenant..that is patterned

  [a shadow]after the heavenly. the last steps are..to take all the people's sin...and place them on Azazel's goats head..then a fit

  man leads them off never to enter the Holy city.   that is what this is all about. and this is what Jesus and Father are doing now.  :girlheart:

[eaglesway]

sin is a demon..I met him...you will too..it is the work of the Holy spirit to convince the world of sin..and you will be convinced!!!

  I am not doing anything out of bitter envy or self-seeking..I am telling  all you this for your own good out of love.

  the Court has sit and it is time for the saints to inherit the kingdom..the man of sin will first be revealed/removed..the court letters are sent

out[the little scroll that taste like honey but makes your belly bitter]. Go to the Best Home/goodnewsinc..............get prepared........

  it is the DAY OF THE LORD and the man of sin is being revealed and all the judgements and the hour of trial..it's all going down.!

  I BEG YOU TO!!!! I entreat you with tears!!!!!!!.the watchers of the wall will remove your cloak/veil!!!!!!!!

it comes in upon a peaceful unsuspecting people dwelling without wall[He will take back His hedge from around you and you shall

see what has been restrained] :HeartThrob:  yes He loves you..yes He saves all men and only satan and demons are destroyed

I do not believe any sentient being is destroyed. Whatever you have seen and whatever your interpretation of that vision is, so be it.... it is not for me to judge. However I still disagree with the statement that sin is a demon. I also disagree that Satan and demons will be destroyed. I believe every adversary will be subjected and drawn into life.

This is a forum for discussion. I don't have a problem with prophetic proclamations as long as they don't exceed the conversation being held  or claim the authority of visions over the authority of the word.

I am not necessarly saying you are doing that- but maybe you are, I dont always get your mode of communication :o).

I am certainly not accusing you of doing anything out of vain-glory either, but I do disagree with your conclusion.

Always we must watch and pray lest we enter into temptation. Always we should agree with our adversary while we are on the way to the judge, lest the judge deliver us to the bailiff and he delivers us to the jailer.

These things are always true.

[sheila]

art thou wiser than Daniel? is nothing hidden from thee? this is in the 'word' and noted as the mystery of iniquity that is to be revealed

before His return.It is a revelation of His..that has left me shaken and trembling. the very root of iniquity/leviathan spiritual negative

and yet He has full control of it...and uses it to accomplish His purposes.Nothing hidden will not be revealed.It is good to recognize

the word of scripture that addresses such.

   Personally,I would rather have learned about it from the otherside............that's all I will speak about it on the forum.........but

  He will testify about it..and reveal it unto all..each in their order.     

[CST]

sin is a demon..I met him...you will too..it is the work of the Holy spirit to convince the world of sin..and you will be convinced!!!

  I am not doing anything out of bitter envy or self-seeking..I am telling  all you this for your own good out of love.

  the Court has sit and it is time for the saints to inherit the kingdom..the man of sin will first be revealed/removed..the court letters are sent

out[the little scroll that taste like honey but makes your belly bitter]. Go to the Best Home/goodnewsinc..............get prepared........

  it is the DAY OF THE LORD and the man of sin is being revealed and all the judgements and the hour of trial..it's all going down.!

  I BEG YOU TO!!!! I entreat you with tears!!!!!!!.the watchers of the wall will remove your cloak/veil!!!!!!!!

it comes in upon a peaceful unsuspecting people dwelling without wall[He will take back His hedge from around you and you shall

see what has been restrained] :HeartThrob:  yes He loves you..yes He saves all men and only satan and demons are destroyed

I'm kind of on the same page as Eaglesway here with certain qualifications. What I think is very important first and foremost is not to dismiss your experiences. They are your experiences and they affect how you think about things and relate to things and through God's sovereignty there serve needs you have in your life. I believe this, I even believe this when people have experiences we know for certain were caused by illness or hallucinogens.

Nevertheless, they are your experiences and they impart lesson to you but nowhere in the Bible does it seem that sin is called a demon and given that there are demons mentioned in the Bible that seems odd. The closest the Bible comes to calling sin a demon, as I can recall, is in Genesis 4 when God tells Cain, who's countenance has fallen, "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; it's desire is for you, but you must master it." (Gen 4:7) If favour of your position is that this monstrofication of sin is the first appearance of the word in scripture although I think it may also worth noting that Cain is instructed to master sin, whatever it may be, not to destroy or expel it.

But the fact is, if sin is meant to be seen as a specific demon in its own right why isn't it shown as being destroyed in the Revelation, are we meant to understand one of those many creatures as sin even when they are not identified as such.

Actually, unlike EW, I don't believe in Satan and I don't believe in demons and I'm actually sure on angels though I'm more inclined to them than other spiritual beings.

Saying why I don't believe in the Devil or Demons is, I think, beyond the scope of this thread, but I think it sufficient to say that I perceive a few logical difficulties with the concept.

"it's a frightening thing to fall into the hands of the living God"! -- this is so very true.. and part of that, i think, occurs at Jesus' return.. the angels gather the sheep, but the goats are gathered to armageddon which, i believe, becomes a lake of fire (literal) due to, i think, [1] all that oil and [2] man's splitting of the atom..  One of Yahweh's paradoxes.. HE judges, yet what is experienced in large part is the result of one's own doings.. individual and collective..

I also believe we all were salted with fire.. and still are.. tho likely not as intense and as needed as at first.. (unless like sheep we wander off somewhere... then the shepherd will seek to bring us back and will correct us, He being high priest and knowing how to do so in each case). And of course, it's possible to be saved, but so as by fire (trial, calamity) and our works burned up (because they weren't His works).

I think Israel thought of Yahweh's judgment as fiery destruction, but earthly, and occurring during this lifetime.. I think there has to be a lake of fire in the age (day) of judgment and thereabouts.. (or always?) not as a place but as an element, and as EW has said, as a metaphor for being salted with fire (or that's how I remember it anyway, sorry if it's not very accurate! :doh: )

           the cleansing, the washing.. the tears.. which cleanse the heart.. Sometimes I just can't imAgine.. the heart wrenching that would occur if one has mistreated lots of people.. destroyed families.. harmed children.. people starving, people hurt.. living destitute.. oppressed, and in fear.. imagine seeing all the faces of those you had injured or even caused their death..

..most of us believers, i think, have our 'little' horrors, so to speak.. it's all the same thing - horror. Any little speck of it is death and the process of death and dissolution/decay.. the disease of the heart and mind.. (soul) ..that believers have repented and burned with shame over.. and cried bitter hot tears.. or struggled with God.. our own bitterness of the carnal/imperfect/lacking nature (which i think the demons come and fan the flames of.. kick a person when they're down.. have we all shook our fist at God in some way, at some time..?

How merciful and kind He is.

I think the biggest example of fiery judgment is described (by symbols, etc) in the book of revelation.. when mankind's towers built on sand come toppling down... hail of great size/debris? .."when they may see the smoke of her burning" rev 18:9.. all history gathered into one and culminating in the epic story and Yahweh's illustration to all in heaven and earth, what is good (life) from what is evil (non-life), so that all will fully understand that to wander from Him in any tiny way, can onLy ever end in self destruction.. He is, surely? life, and perfection.. and imperfect is the opposite of life. He built the rescue in from the foundation.. (how blessed we are to know, the rescue of all! :gsmile: He is totally able.)
:HeartThrob: :cloud9:

Ah, thanks, Marie. I was particularly interested in the 'little horrors' bit. Jesus, we are told, came, among other things to remove fear of death, 'perfect love casts out fear' seeing as many of us have these 'little horrors' things we fear occurring, things we fear losing, it often seems that He hasn't finished perfecting love in too many people on Earth yet.

I sort of shook, fist at God last night, mainly I'm shaking at the evil Conservative government people here in the UK, wickedly and thoughtlessly voted in at the last election as the continue to bully the poorest and weakest members of our society to help those who need least help and basically are acting against everything I understand God intends for the World and sent Jesus to try to achieve. My anger is mainly at them, but hard not to get confused and angry at God and question why He's allowing this to happen to His people.

to receive His judgement and atonement..everyone needs to consider the atonement process in the law covenant..that is patterned

  [a shadow]after the heavenly. the last steps are..to take all the people's sin...and place them on Azazel's goats head..then a fit

  man leads them off never to enter the Holy city.   that is what this is all about. and this is what Jesus and Father are doing now.  :girlheart:

That really, sounds like it could be very right. Except I thought that's kind of what the crucifixion was. well in part anyway, I'm sure the crucifixion and its means are very involved.

sin is a demon..I met him...you will too..it is the work of the Holy spirit to convince the world of sin..and you will be convinced!!!

  I am not doing anything out of bitter envy or self-seeking..I am telling  all you this for your own good out of love.

  the Court has sit and it is time for the saints to inherit the kingdom..the man of sin will first be revealed/removed..the court letters are sent

out[the little scroll that taste like honey but makes your belly bitter]. Go to the Best Home/goodnewsinc..............get prepared........

  it is the DAY OF THE LORD and the man of sin is being revealed and all the judgements and the hour of trial..it's all going down.!

  I BEG YOU TO!!!! I entreat you with tears!!!!!!!.the watchers of the wall will remove your cloak/veil!!!!!!!!

it comes in upon a peaceful unsuspecting people dwelling without wall[He will take back His hedge from around you and you shall

see what has been restrained] :HeartThrob:  yes He loves you..yes He saves all men and only satan and demons are destroyed

I do not believe any sentient being is destroyed. Whatever you have seen and whatever your interpretation of that vision is, so be it.... it is not for me to judge. However I still disagree with the statement that sin is a demon. I also disagree that Satan and demons will be destroyed. I believe every adversary will be subjected and drawn into life.

This is a forum for discussion. I don't have a problem with prophetic proclamations as long as they don't exceed the conversation being held  or claim the authority of visions over the authority of the word.

I am not necessarly saying you are doing that- but maybe you are, I dont always get your mode of communication :o).

I am certainly not accusing you of doing anything out of vain-glory either, but I do disagree with your conclusion.

Always we must watch and pray lest we enter into temptation. Always we should agree with our adversary while we are on the way to the judge, lest the judge deliver us to the bailiff and he delivers us to the jailer.

These things are always true.

Not believing in demons, and the Devil solves this problem for me. Demons are never presented as having the slightest degree of decency with in them and who is to say they meet the proper criteria of sentience as described. They seem to exist, according to the Bible, to reduce the sentience of living beings.

art thou wiser than Daniel? is nothing hidden from thee? this is in the 'word' and noted as the mystery of iniquity that is to be revealed

before His return.It is a revelation of His..that has left me shaken and trembling. the very root of iniquity/leviathan spiritual negative

and yet He has full control of it...and uses it to accomplish His purposes.Nothing hidden will not be revealed.It is good to recognize

the word of scripture that addresses such.

   Personally,I would rather have learned about it from the otherside............that's all I will speak about it on the forum.........but

  He will testify about it..and reveal it unto all..each in their order.     

No one's saying they're wiser than Daniel or things haven't been hidden from them. But it's possible things have been shown to them too.

[sheila]

what you perceive it as in your present..is what He allows you to. You know it now as the serpent in the garden that deceived.......

the angels on the left that went forth to be a lying spirit,the beast,the leviathan,the prince of this world..the spirit in operation

in the sons of disobedience,the wicked one from which we are delivered. the vanity we are subjected to in hope..that unless

He had left mankind the promised seed..we,too,should have been like.You know it as the evil in the TOKOGAE..as hatred,strife

immorality,adversary. and that is true..it is all these things and more..it is the man of lawlessness,son of perdition,murderer,

the beast that comes up out of the sea and the earth,satn released from the abyss..spiritual death.as the sin in your flesh you must

rule over.

and when He wants to reveal to you more of it/as He knows what lies in the darkness..He will show you...for you must,as He

prepares you to receive it,show it unto you. That you may understand His judgement and theirs..and the LOF..and the New Heavens

and new creation. That you may judge angels..and know His judgements. For you must know it's nature..and His creation and

purpose in creating it. and His lifting of us all from it. and when He does..your eyes will be like fire..as well as the waist down as

flaming fire.  and you will be in one accord with Him in it. Not that you are not at present..in what He reveals unto you..and it is Him

that will continue to reveal more unto you..as you continue to follow the Holy spirit that shall lead you into all truth.

   and though iniquity abound,so much more His great Grace abounds unto the children of men...........

  love and grace and mercy be unto the sons of God......

[CST]

I don't believe in Adam, Eve and the serpent of Eden either although I do retain the possibility of the story referring to some spiritual event in some spiritual realm that effected humans in the physical world which I suppose may be a concession to your thinking. And, yes, sin can take many forms but I just think it's primary form it's thoughts in people's heads. Which, yes, manifest in many different ways to many different people.

My disbelief in the literal reading of the story of Eden isn't whim, leaning towards science of scripture trashing, I feel that I have scriptural reasons for believing so.

In other news I'm no longer cross with God at the moment,  :banana:  :dsunny: I have realized that God has used the wicked Tyrant Tories and their abuse of the law to attempt to teach me the faults of legalism which I am sure many people here already know but I shall state my 'epiphany' in case it needs correction and I am mistaken.

The law is supposed to serve society, to maintain the status quo, governments use it to enslave society, this is sin, people are taught they must obey the law, they come to believe 'the law must be obeyed'. No! No, no, no! This is idolatry, isn't it? Only God must be obeyed. (Is that too dramatic? I think this point is important.)

Correct where necessary.

[sheila]

well,God can make a believer out of you..and will do so in His time whenever He desires.But at present He meets you in faith hope and love

and these things will remain.He meets the prodigal when He is yet a long way off..He meets us as a candle in great darkness....

He meets us as a daystar rising in our hearts...and receives us home to dwell in inapproachable light in His presence.

  He does all these things for His creation...and makes man into His image.

who can question Him of the works of His hands?

[CST]

And the same would be true for you on the things you may be mistaken on.

Actually though since you posted this though I've been around the board and seen many of your posts and you seem really wise and kind.

So I really want to disagree with you as respectfully as possible while I have to disagree with you at all.

[marie glen]

I sort of shook, fist at God last night, mainly I'm shaking at the evil Conservative government people here in the UK, wickedly and thoughtlessly voted in at the last election as the continue to bully the poorest and weakest members of our society to help those who need least help and basically are acting against everything I understand God intends for the World and sent Jesus to try to achieve. My anger is mainly at them, but hard not to get confused and angry at God and question why He's allowing this to happen to His people.

I think it's likely we've all been there (shaking fist, etc) and it is hard for a while for us to understand.. but i had an experience which changed all that when my son 17 years ago asked me two questions - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"

I wasn't all that satisfied with my answers to him so I prayed for better ones.. and bam! the answers came like bam, bam bam.. :laughing7:

first thing was how God (surely?) is life itself and also perfection.. but when He endowed thinking ability a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about.. because with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices (tho thankfully very limited!).

But to choose anything other than what He does in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, the opposite of God/Life.. hence death and life as we presently know it.. and all sufferings.. yet God being life itself, lives through, suffers and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur! Why would he put himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating robots or an ant farm but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because aLL will fully understand that to wander away from Him cannot be done, for it can only ever 'end' in a self destructive wisp of smoke/apocalypse, the unveiling. For surely(?) 'judgment' day - in the greek - decision ('day') will be an extremely long day of the examination of all things.. all human history - God surely does not waste such an opportunity to really drive home this learning of good from evil (life from death/nonlife)... being deeply engraved upon every heart and mind..

And, God only able to be honest, there was that tree in the original garden..

I believe He endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. and is letting it run its course.. for the most part, and it's an unavoidable lesson and journey... if there's to be thinking ability, that is.. :gsmile: God bless! :Peace2:

[rosered]

This has been an amazing learning thread in Gods  judgments 

  thank you each one for  reminding   me  , I just do not know how to speak to people ... humility  as  salt of the earth  is critical and salted with fire .

GOD is the Father of spirits . and has control over all    spirits  and the flesh and  everything  ever created by Him ,   this none have no doubts about .

Psalm 105:7
He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.

Isaiah 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.[all things work together for those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose ]  that is the good and bad things  of all things

What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness    from their error  / sin  missing   the mark ?

These two examples   prove  , sin , satan adversary   was at their hearts door and entered into them    causing   BETRAYAL   of innocent blood in the beginning  starting with with Abel,  a brother  ...

They let sin rule over them   taking action  of causing   bloodshed of innocence  & purity  of Life causing death  , murder and  lying  against the truth

Judas was called  a devil   by the Lord Himself when He said one of you is a devil ,  Jesus choose on purpose to  set everything in motion  ,,  We also know Jesus laid his own life down that he could take it back up again  and no one ''took it '' from Him , for those whom do not understand this part , see  Judas as evil  and lost forever  , but  Jesus showed us    the truth .


   John 6 69"We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

  So to   sum up what lies against the truth is betrayal   the opposite of faith   and being loyal .

  Even Jesus said you will   loose heart ,  stumble   , your own  faith will fail you  ,  scandalize  each other , bear    the image of  corruption  and ,   treat each other with contempt ,    will  betray  one another ..  thinking less  of each other than   lifting one another up when one  is stumbling or failing the test   when tribulation /judgements comes .a cause of great trouble or suffering.

synonyms:   suffering, distress, trouble, misery, wretchedness, unhappiness, sadness, heartache, woe, grief, sorrow, pain, anguish, agony; literary travail



Matt 24 ;10  9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many....

What if being honest   with  God means you  know how weak and dark  and  poor in Spirit   you really are when temptation comes and ask Him for  His  help in that very hour of trial ?

I do not think Cain nor   Judas considered it  and to their own hurt and harm and pain  as well as  causing others  suffering for just being  good and obedient  to God , for their own evil doing .

[CST]

I sort of shook, fist at God last night, mainly I'm shaking at the evil Conservative government people here in the UK, wickedly and thoughtlessly voted in at the last election as the continue to bully the poorest and weakest members of our society to help those who need least help and basically are acting against everything I understand God intends for the World and sent Jesus to try to achieve. My anger is mainly at them, but hard not to get confused and angry at God and question why He's allowing this to happen to His people.

I think it's likely we've all been there (shaking fist, etc) and it is hard for a while for us to understand.. but i had an experience which changed all that when my son 17 years ago asked me two questions - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"

I wasn't all that satisfied with my answers to him so I prayed for better ones.. and bam! the answers came like bam, bam bam.. :laughing7:

first thing was how God (surely?) is life itself and also perfection.. but when He endowed thinking ability a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about.. because with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices (tho thankfully very limited!).

But to choose anything other than what He does in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, the opposite of God/Life.. hence death and life as we presently know it.. and all sufferings.. yet God being life itself, lives through, suffers and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur! Why would he put himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating robots or an ant farm but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because aLL will fully understand that to wander away from Him cannot be done, for it can only ever 'end' in a self destructive wisp of smoke/apocalypse, the unveiling. For surely(?) 'judgment' day - in the greek - decision ('day') will be an extremely long day of the examination of all things.. all human history - God surely does not waste such an opportunity to really drive home this learning of good from evil (life from death/nonlife)... being deeply engraved upon every heart and mind..

And, God only able to be honest, there was that tree in the original garden..

I believe He endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. and is letting it run its course.. for the most part, and it's an unavoidable lesson and journey... if there's to be thinking ability, that is.. :gsmile: God bless! :Peace2:

For clarification, since I think you've used this example from your experience more than once, how do you and your son understand an 'ant farm' in this content.

Now my answer to the first question would involve taken the literalism away from the Garden of Eden story but I'm not clear on what model you're disclaiming here. Are you saying  that answers don't have the capacity to make choices or something?

I'm certainly in agreement with you on most all of your logically considered conclusions. Although I have to add the understand that in the absolute sense only God is perfect, anything He creates is going automatically be less than perfect because it is remove from the perfect 'God' model.

However, it can, in theory, be perfect according to what God's intention for it is. So your observation comes into play when the being has the capacity to not act according to that purpose, which I'm assuming would be better and more 'perfect' than only being able to choose what God would have us choose, which to come full circle, I think is what you mean by the ant farm. Is that a correct understanding?

This has been an amazing learning thread in Gods  judgments 

  thank you each one for  reminding   me  , I just do not know how to speak to people ... humility  as  salt of the earth  is critical and salted with fire .

GOD is the Father of spirits . and has control over all    spirits  and the flesh and  everything  ever created by Him ,   this none have no doubts about .

Psalm 105:7
He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.

Isaiah 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.[all things work together for those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose ]  that is the good and bad things  of all things

What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness    from their error  / sin  missing   the mark ?

These two examples   prove  , sin , satan adversary   was at their hearts door and entered into them    causing   BETRAYAL   of innocent blood in the beginning  starting with with Abel,  a brother  ...

They let sin rule over them   taking action  of causing   bloodshed of innocence  & purity  of Life causing death  , murder and  lying  against the truth

Judas was called  a devil   by the Lord Himself when He said one of you is a devil ,  Jesus choose on purpose to  set everything in motion  ,,  We also know Jesus laid his own life down that he could take it back up again  and no one "took it " from Him , for those whom do not understand this part , see  Judas as evil  and lost forever  , but  Jesus showed us    the truth .


   John 6 69"We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

  So to   sum up what lies against the truth is betrayal   the opposite of faith   and being loyal .

  Even Jesus said you will   loose heart ,  stumble   , your own  faith will fail you  ,  scandalize  each other , bear    the image of  corruption  and ,   treat each other with contempt ,    will  betray  one another ..  thinking less  of each other than   lifting one another up when one  is stumbling or failing the test   when tribulation /judgements comes .a cause of great trouble or suffering.

synonyms:   suffering, distress, trouble, misery, wretchedness, unhappiness, sadness, heartache, woe, grief, sorrow, pain, anguish, agony; literary travail



Matt 24 ;10  9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many....

What if being honest   with  God means you  know how weak and dark  and  poor in Spirit   you really are when temptation comes and ask Him for  His  help in that very hour of trial ?

I do not think Cain nor   Judas considered it  and to their own hurt and harm and pain  as well as  causing others  suffering for just being  good and obedient  to God , for their own evil doing .

I think you speak very well, better than me. I manage to burn bridges without even trying it very upsetting for me. I've cut myself off from lots of people doing or not doing whatever that thing is I should or should not be doing.

You also make many good observations. The only sad note I'd make is on the last one when I suspect that when the time of trial comes people don't turn to God for help as you wisely suggest because superpride rears it's head and they don't even realize they're being tried.

[rosered]

I think you speak very well, better than me. I manage to burn bridges without even trying it very upsetting for me. I've cut myself off from lots of people doing or not doing whatever that thing is I should or should not be doing.

You also make many good observations. The only sad note I'd make is on the last one when I suspect that when the time of trial comes people don't turn to God for help as you wisely suggest because superpride rears it's head and they don't even realize they're being tried.

I appreciate you  you answering CST ,
Thanks  for your patience     that  we all are learning   how to speak to one another  in love and not force  , a little love goes a long ,long way together .

I agree with you , that  the man of sin does rear its ugly head   , as sin becomes utterly sinful , maybe why the Lord uses   the Sword of His  mouth to cut it off ..and the breath of His coming  burns  it  to dust and ashes .
Maybe it is the process of   ''putting on the mind of Christ ''    those beheaded    ones  that die in the Lord in Rev  that  no longer use the beastly carnal mind to understand the ways of God  ?   and given a new name  and  white robe  etc ...
  I thought of the scripture      that   Job sat in dust and ashes    Job's Confession
Then Job answered the Lord and said,

"I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
'Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes."  .  Job 42

Job was sure blessed after God was done showing Himself to Job  and satan  touching everything in his life[heart] , but not taking his life ..  the least you have done to them  you have done unto me ..

I do believe this is when Job learned the  righteousness of God in his earth  /heart ,   bodies ,  lives  ..

and do not think   we humans   understand that when the  dragons flood of lies covered the earth   during the   days of Noah   and was protected by the ark built at the Lords command   , the earth opened its  mouth to  swallow it all up    as a ''help''  to the Woman[church ]  of the wilderness   ,   now the earth must   be dried up   with  Holy Spirit and fire to  destroy the works of satan , This is why to me the Lord come to send fire on the earth by the Cross  in Luke  12 ;49
   drying up the great river of  Euphrates   for those kings of the east to be prepared  and so on    till all the  bowls are poured out , we look and see the outward manifestation    of  what is  really a very spiritual battle     within
the old heavens and earth  , by making all things new   by Him for  Him and though Him ..

And  now being accused of being  ''hyper spiritual''  :sigh:  by some   and it does not make me mad , but sad , because  it is the Lord whom is gathering us up  into Himself one by one

Isaiah 27 ...11When its limbs are dry, they are broken off; Women come and make a fire with them,

For they are not a people of discernment, Therefore their Maker will not have compassion on them. And their Creator will not be gracious to them. 12In that day the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt,

and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. 13It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

  Gathering one by one into Himself   1 Thess 4 The Return of the Lord
...15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord....

  He is drawing all men into Himself , the dead in the Lord come   also as to those whom are alive also,   being seated with Christ in heavenly places 

  Eph 2 ;6 Alive with Christ
...5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus

I do believe this is how we see  and hear  in the Spirit or  not ,,seeing  the Lord Jesus Christ  as of yet  .

Perception  verses   deception    and why some just give up and   quit all together          :sigh:

God is merciful to everyone  in every way possible     than mankind finds impossible    to believe .... because it has been hidden  from their eyes . 

Luke 19Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,

42saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace!

But now they have been hidden from your eyes.



43"For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,...

Jeremiah 13:17
If you do not listen, I will weep in secret because of your pride; my eyes will weep bitterly, overflowing with tears, because the LORD's flock will be taken captive.

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
 

Jesus Christ is all about healing and making  whole  all that was lost .

[CST]

Thanks, I like your post there you use the word "we" in places where I know think I should have used the word "we" rather than "they're" but didn't because I was to keen to cleave to the examples you gave as if the likes of we and you and the rest of us here might be somehow different when I suspect we're not.

Calling you hyper spiritual isn't very nice though. People might think that your understanding of scripture and how the world works is off but they should surely just say that. But people love their labels, easier for 'them' to put 'us' into boxes they can warn people off. It's a poor criticism anyway. If you actually are hyper spiritual that could only be a good thing. Fleshy being tend to be those we're taught get things wrong in their heads.

I'm really not sure I'm going to be gathered up in the air by the Lord, I'm not that good. That said I did have an experience was that I would describe as incredibly rapturous except that at the end of it I was still here it seems, on Earth, so either it didn't complete and I was left behind, it was something else entirely, or we've misunderstood exactly what meeting in the air means.

[rosered]

Thanks, I like your post there you use the word "we" in places where I know think I should have used the word "we" rather than "they're" but didn't because I was to keen to cleave to the examples you gave as if the likes of we and you and the rest of us here might be somehow different when I suspect we're not.

Calling you hyper spiritual isn't very nice though. People might think that your understanding of scripture and how the world works is off but they should surely just say that. But people love their labels, easier for 'them' to put 'us' into boxes they can warn people off. It's a poor criticism anyway. If you actually are hyper spiritual that could only be a good thing. Fleshy being tend to be those we're taught get things wrong in their heads.

I'm really not sure I'm going to be gathered up in the air by the Lord, I'm not that good. That said I did have an experience was that I would describe as incredibly rapturous except that at the end of it I was still here it seems, on Earth, so either it didn't complete and I was left behind, it was something else entirely, or we've misunderstood exactly what meeting in the air means.

   I enjoyed your   thought CST ,  thanks for sharing them   ,

  I love the examples    of    the  Word of God ,   We  know  Johns    testimony      was  taken up  in the Spirit on the Lords Day, and that is how  we  have   his testimony    and wrote revelation  , and  he was   still a human being    and brought right back down into   the world  , we also have Paul's account of  one being the in the Spirit   and  was taken up to the 3rd heaven and   hear things that was unlawful to  speak  of   .  we are living epistles    and the Word being being fulfilled  within us all , just my opinion though .

  These things in the    Bible  make  us all wonder what God is doing in us ?     We are humans  after all, but spiritual beings as well .     we walk accordingly  as we are led .

My hubby has had 4 dreams in  the last  two weeks   and they  ''wake him up '' out of sleep   in the night  . and what happens to him is what happens to  us all .

This is pretty literal to me and well as spiritual in  nature .

God loves you and loves all his creation  ,, Paul was convinced and so are we .... Romans 8


38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  This is a pretty powerful conviction    when in doubt ...

If I told you  , how  blessed you are to remember      your  experience  ,   there have been times when awakened and  it was sealed up so fast that my own flesh could not touch it   before  my feet hit the floor  ..

So I go to looking in the scriptures as to ''what was that  Lord Jesus  ?""    and there it was  an  answer   to  those million questions   about God . https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+33

I do believe  the scripture not letting your left hand  know what your right hand is doing  has merit   as  our own carnal nature wars against the Spirit  , and the secret    things of God are sealed up till the appointed time       when they are to be made known  and I do think He is present  , where  two or 3 are gathered in His name He is in the midst of them    and  believe we are   so  much more than just   one little ol human being  ..

  Considering   the mad man   in the tombs    that Jesus  healed and made whole  and placed him in his ''right mind ''  from all the scattering  thoughts that tormented that poor   creature  ,  this caused great fear to fall on those   witnessing  it   , but was legion because there were many in him .

  Mark 5 ...8For He had been saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!" 9And He was asking him, "What is your name?" And he said to Him, "My name is Legion; for we are many."

We whom   do  take the Word of God seriously   , know   this is just the tip of the iceberg  and just beginning to learn  about Gods righteousness in the earth ,and so much more to consider than when we first believed .

Thanking you for the  exchange  CST ,    God bless you in all    things .

[marie glen]

For clarification, since I think you've used this example from your experience more than once,

It made a big impact on me.. I usually describe it as having "my socks knocked off.. and they're still knocked off.. even though i was a firm and happy believer previous to this"

how do you and your son understand an 'ant farm' in this content.

Yes, it was his wording.. I understand an ant farm to be a colony of ants behind glass for observing.. For my use, robots would be more accurate. The conclusion really, was.. we're not an ant farm (robots) and that's the whole 'problem'! If we want to think of rationality as a problem.. but since it includes (surely?) sooner or later, the ability to make choices.. Paradoxically, it is a 'problem'! Or rather the results are, the results being life as we presently know it.. or rather, the world as we presently know it.

Now my answer to the first question would involve taken the literalism away from the Garden of Eden story

I think the Eden story is literal.. I figure why not? :smile: makes more sense than if they were a class of people... all would make a bad choice together at the same time? besides the bible says "all nations came from one man, Adam.."

but I'm not clear on what model you're disclaiming here. Are you saying  that answers don't have the capacity to make choices or something?

I'm not sure I understand the question.. I'm disclaiming the crazy notion (imo:) that we are like robots or an ant farm.. but that when God endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. that was a Pandora's box.. Yet He is creating rational creatures. And that is why He endowed thinking ability, which an offshoot of is the ability to make choices. I think, therefor I can make decisions and choices.. ..but if God is both life and perfection.. Well, we are imperfect, and the result of "missing the mark" is death/nonlife - translated as "the wages of sin is death".

(note: since God designed it this way, I believe He takes responsibility for it all (imperfection) and saves all, having built the rescue in "from the foundation" (beginning.. in the blueprint/design/this life of instruction,teaching us)

I'm certainly in agreement with you on most all of your logically considered conclusions. Although I have to add the understand that in the absolute sense only God is perfect,

:iagree: :iagree: Absolutely!! ..but He does say "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.." but of course we cannot possibly do this until His return and the resurrection / meeting Him in the air at His return when "this mortal must put on immortality and this corrupt/imperfect must put on incorruptibility"

anything He creates is going automatically be less than perfect because it is remove from the perfect 'God' model.

..after the creation days He said "behold it's all good" - all good, to me, would be good with no less than good.. perfect :smile"

I do believe Jesus is the Only straight out from God One.. so to be of the same essence and substance.. and character.. with all other things "created through Jesus" and now being "gathered into Jesus" after like sheep wandering away.. But He is always "First" (pre-eminent; Colossians ch 1:? or 2?)

However, it can, in theory, be perfect according to what God's intention for it is. So your observation comes into play when the being has the capacity to not act according to that purpose, which I'm assuming would be better and more 'perfect' than only being able to choose what God would have us choose, which to come full circle, I think is what you mean by the ant farm. Is that a correct understanding?

Yep! I think so! :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

   ....I just do not know how to speak to people ...

Oh contraire! :laughing7: I disagree! 'proved' by the following rest of your post! (for example) [What we have to say can often be hard to understand.. veil over the eyes and ears.. see through a glass darkly.. and we all can get a little stuck in our ways and it takes a while to be able to hear what someone else might be saying about something.. or my :2c: about it anyway :smile:

humility  as  salt of the earth  is critical and salted with fire .

I agree!! I definitely think part of the fruit our gardener Father wants in us is humility.. othersise I think He would make us perfect as soon as we believe.. I know I have plenty of things in life and in myself that work very well to keep me humble! :mblush:

GOD is the Father of spirits . and has control over all    spirits  and the flesh and  everything  ever created by Him ,   this none have no doubts about .

Psalm 105:7
He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.

               :cloud9:
                    He is so wise.. beyond imagining..

Isaiah 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.[all things work together for those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose ]  that is the good and bad things  of all things

What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness    from their error  / sin  missing   the mark ?

These two examples   prove  , sin , satan adversary   was at their hearts door and entered into them    causing   BETRAYAL   of innocent blood in the beginning  starting with with Abel,  a brother  ...

They let sin rule over them   taking action  of causing   bloodshed of innocence  & purity  of Life causing death  , murder and  lying  against the truth

Judas was called  a devil   by the Lord Himself when He said one of you is a devil ,  Jesus choose on purpose to  set everything in motion  ,,  We also know Jesus laid his own life down that he could take it back up again  and no one "took it " from Him , for those whom do not understand this part , see  Judas as evil  and lost forever  , but  Jesus showed us    the truth .


   John 6 69"We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."

70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

  So to   sum up what lies against the truth is betrayal   the opposite of faith   and being loyal .

  Even Jesus said you will   loose heart ,  stumble   , your own  faith will fail you  ,  scandalize  each other , bear    the image of  corruption  and ,   treat each other with contempt ,    will  betray  one another ..  thinking less  of each other than   lifting one another up when one  is stumbling or failing the test   when tribulation /judgements comes .a cause of great trouble or suffering.

synonyms:   suffering, distress, trouble, misery, wretchedness, unhappiness, sadness, heartache, woe, grief, sorrow, pain, anguish, agony; literary travail



Matt 24 ;10  9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.…

What if being honest   with  God means you  know how weak and dark  and  poor in Spirit   you really are when temptation comes and ask Him for  His  help in that very hour of trial ?

I do not think Cain nor   Judas considered it  and to their own hurt and harm and pain  as well as  causing others  suffering for just being  good and obedient  to God , for their own evil doing .

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree:

"What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness    from their error  / sin  missing   the mark ?" - I think that is the whole thing right there; the whole truth about this life.. And is true of all of us. And I think this is the lesson God is teaching us all. The foundation lesson and truth.

And I think the lesson is both personal and collective, that it is for and about each individual (each one of us) and also is true of the world.. That it's all the same story in every individual's life, all through history, and is the same story of the world.. "Missing the mark" is to crash and burn... be a basket of pieces..

Bless you Rosie!! You aRe perfect! ..we all are, in God's eyes.. any flaws we may have are covered by the love, life and blood of Jesus.. the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, humility, goodness, faithfulness, temperance, moderation... etc..
      :girlheart:

p.s. your  :HeartThrob: 's often are very artistic.. pretty.. how you place them.. been wanting to tell you that..

[rosered]

"What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness    from their error  / sin  missing   the mark ?" - I think that is the whole thing right there; the whole truth about this life.. And is true of all of us. And I think this is the lesson God is teaching us all. The foundation lesson and truth.

And I think the lesson is both personal and collective, that it is for and about each individual (each one of us) and also is true of the world.. That it's all the same story in every individual's life, all through history, and is the same story of the world.. "Missing the mark" is to crash and burn... be a basket of pieces..

Bless you Rosie!! You aRe perfect! ..we all are, in God's eyes.. any flaws we may have are covered by the love, life and blood of Jesus.. the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, humility, goodness, faithfulness, temperance, moderation... etc..
      :girlheart:

p.s. your  :HeartThrob: 's often are very artistic.. pretty.. how you place them.. been wanting to tell you that..

Oh  sis!
  I love you to pieces lol    ha ha  :girlheart:   

Love of God  kind , that wants nothing but good things for all   mankind , not just a few chosen  loved ones  :winkgrin:

The  Lord has blessed us all beyond  measure  , His patience   His goodness  and faithfulness   and gentleness    , peace  and joy  being His miracles   and signs  of LIFE    working  in the times /ages  and stages     and continual supply    though the Lord Jesus Christ      :HeartThrob:

  A favorite thought  as of late ,       life and death are yours '' all things'' are yours , what an inheritance  ! ,'' all things ''    also work together   whom love  the Lord


1Cor 3 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish,[ call that carnal mind  a fooler  and deception is death and  an enmity against the Spirit of Life and dwells in us all  God is fair  that way  !]

so that he may become wise. [putting on the mind of Christ  that all things can become new and living and pleasing to the Living God ]


For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.

For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness";

and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless."

So then let no one boast in men.


For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come;

all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

What a wonderful thing to  focus on '' we all belong ''  to  God and not to ourselves   that seems to be the foolish thinking  that we some how own   anything , but is loaned and borrowed  from God   being slaves to err    that we Know Jesus CHRIST DID buy   back   with His own blood  , a purchase   and a   precious price ,  that will  bear fruit to  the Father  as it is written   and spoken and   finally known to all .

[CST]

Thanks, I like your post there you use the word "we" in places where I know think I should have used the word "we" rather than "they're" but didn't because I was to keen to cleave to the examples you gave as if the likes of we and you and the rest of us here might be somehow different when I suspect we're not.

Calling you hyper spiritual isn't very nice though. People might think that your understanding of scripture and how the world works is off but they should surely just say that. But people love their labels, easier for 'them' to put 'us' into boxes they can warn people off. It's a poor criticism anyway. If you actually are hyper spiritual that could only be a good thing. Fleshy being tend to be those we're taught get things wrong in their heads.

I'm really not sure I'm going to be gathered up in the air by the Lord, I'm not that good. That said I did have an experience was that I would describe as incredibly rapturous except that at the end of it I was still here it seems, on Earth, so either it didn't complete and I was left behind, it was something else entirely, or we've misunderstood exactly what meeting in the air means.

   I enjoyed your   thought CST ,  thanks for sharing them   ,

  I love the examples    of    the  Word of God ,   We  know  Johns    testimony      was  taken up  in the Spirit on the Lords Day, and that is how  we  have   his testimony    and wrote revelation  , and  he was   still a human being    and brought right back down into   the world  , we also have Paul's account of  one being the in the Spirit   and  was taken up to the 3rd heaven and   hear things that was unlawful to  speak  of   .  we are living epistles    and the Word being being fulfilled  within us all , just my opinion though .

  These things in the    Bible  make  us all wonder what God is doing in us ?     We are humans  after all, but spiritual beings as well .     we walk accordingly  as we are led .

My hubby has had 4 dreams in  the last  two weeks   and they  "wake him up " out of sleep   in the night  . and what happens to him is what happens to  us all .

This is pretty literal to me and well as spiritual in  nature .

God loves you and loves all his creation  ,, Paul was convinced and so are we .... Romans 8


38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  This is a pretty powerful conviction    when in doubt ...

If I told you  , how  blessed you are to remember      your  experience  ,   there have been times when awakened and  it was sealed up so fast that my own flesh could not touch it   before  my feet hit the floor  ..

So I go to looking in the scriptures as to "what was that  Lord Jesus  ?""    and there it was  an  answer   to  those million questions   about God . https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+33

I do believe  the scripture not letting your left hand  know what your right hand is doing  has merit   as  our own carnal nature wars against the Spirit  , and the secret    things of God are sealed up till the appointed time       when they are to be made known  and I do think He is present  , where  two or 3 are gathered in His name He is in the midst of them    and  believe we are   so  much more than just   one little ol human being  ..

  Considering   the mad man   in the tombs    that Jesus  healed and made whole  and placed him in his "right mind "  from all the scattering  thoughts that tormented that poor   creature  ,  this caused great fear to fall on those   witnessing  it   , but was legion because there were many in him .

  Mark 5 ...8For He had been saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!" 9And He was asking him, "What is your name?" And he said to Him, "My name is Legion; for we are many."

We whom   do  take the Word of God seriously   , know   this is just the tip of the iceberg  and just beginning to learn  about Gods righteousness in the earth ,and so much more to consider than when we first believed .

Thanking you for the  exchange  CST ,    God bless you in all    things .

God bless you too, Rose.

I'd say my 'vision' was a lot less involved than John's although it was a representation of the ending so it was probably the most important bit (I don't want to divide the weight of the test o the Bible that much).

At the time I just thought I got 'left behind' owing to not been ceremoniously clean at the time.

You have probably quoted the most encouraging line of scripture going, although ETers and EDers tend to reduce the weight of the word 'we' in that quote. And given what the Gospel actually is there should probably loads of encouraging linesin their and we shouldn't have to try as hard as some of us seem to have searched to find them.

Thank you also, God bless you, again!

For clarification, since I think you've used this example from your experience more than once,

It made a big impact on me.. I usually describe it as having "my socks knocked off.. and they're still knocked off.. even though i was a firm and happy believer previous to this"

how do you and your son understand an 'ant farm' in this content.

Yes, it was his wording.. I understand an ant farm to be a colony of ants behind glass for observing.. For my use, robots would be more accurate. The conclusion really, was.. we're not an ant farm (robots) and that's the whole 'problem'! If we want to think of rationality as a problem.. but since it includes (surely?) sooner or later, the ability to make choices.. Paradoxically, it is a 'problem'! Or rather the results are, the results being life as we presently know it.. or rather, the world as we presently know it.

Now my answer to the first question would involve taken the literalism away from the Garden of Eden story

I think the Eden story is literal.. I figure why not? :smile: makes more sense than if they were a class of people... all would make a bad choice together at the same time? besides the bible says "all nations came from one man, Adam.."

but I'm not clear on what model you're disclaiming here. Are you saying  that answers don't have the capacity to make choices or something?

I'm not sure I understand the question.. I'm disclaiming the crazy notion (imo:) that we are like robots or an ant farm.. but that when God endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. that was a Pandora's box.. Yet He is creating rational creatures. And that is why He endowed thinking ability, which an offshoot of is the ability to make choices. I think, therefor I can make decisions and choices.. ..but if God is both life and perfection.. Well, we are imperfect, and the result of "missing the mark" is death/nonlife - translated as "the wages of sin is death".

(note: since God designed it this way, I believe He takes responsibility for it all (imperfection) and saves all, having built the rescue in "from the foundation" (beginning.. in the blueprint/design/this life of instruction,teaching us)

I'm certainly in agreement with you on most all of your logically considered conclusions. Although I have to add the understand that in the absolute sense only God is perfect,

:iagree: :iagree: Absolutely!! ..but He does say "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.." but of course we cannot possibly do this until His return and the resurrection / meeting Him in the air at His return when "this mortal must put on immortality and this corrupt/imperfect must put on incorruptibility"

anything He creates is going automatically be less than perfect because it is remove from the perfect 'God' model.

..after the creation days He said "behold it's all good" - all good, to me, would be good with no less than good.. perfect :smile"

I do believe Jesus is the Only straight out from God One.. so to be of the same essence and substance.. and character.. with all other things "created through Jesus" and now being "gathered into Jesus" after like sheep wandering away.. But He is always "First" (pre-eminent; Colossians ch 1:? or 2?)

However, it can, in theory, be perfect according to what God's intention for it is. So your observation comes into play when the being has the capacity to not act according to that purpose, which I'm assuming would be better and more 'perfect' than only being able to choose what God would have us choose, which to come full circle, I think is what you mean by the ant farm. Is that a correct understanding?

Yep! I think so! :thumbsup:

I would expect so, it informs your relationship to your child, that's bound to be a big deal.

I think I see where you're coming from but this thread probably isn't the place to describe my take on 'free will'.

The answer to "Why not?" in my case is that the theory of evolution is mechanically true even I'm very skeptical about how the process its self is defended. But I admit I'm not comfortable in rejecting literal interpretations of stories in the Bible especially when it concerns progeny which I can see is so important to understanding how the Bible presents human relationships but I also think it's irrational to just reject the science and its discoveries. I think there are actually Biblical reasons for not taking the Eden story literally and even in believing in evolution from it, though that doesn't change the fact there's a lot of conclusions from science I'd like to throw out compared with what the Bible says. But I can reconcile the Eden story in my head. The flood narrative on the other hand versus the science, that I struggle with a lot.

Sorry, Marie, I don't know how that happened. I'm not surprised you don't understand, although you seem to have picked it up, I was trying to write 'ants' again and somehow I wrote answers instead. Sorry.

It does say be perfect, although there's an article on the site that tries to dilute that down somewhat. Somewhat more than I think it demands actually. I think it should be 'be flawless' which is a form of perfection but can taken as a more relative term, I think.

It's interesting how you take "very good" as a term for 'perfect'. I take it as an alternative and consider that He did not use the word 'perfect.'

Again 'flawless' or 'faultless', I think is the word at play here.