An Inhuman God

[CST]

Thank you, Rosered. I just hope it's a simple as your post suggest (if I've understood correctly). The commandment to love each other sounds pretty simple for a clue to what the next age must be like. But God's made everything and they still seems to be a lot the will not get into Heaven or be in Heaven. I like the idea of being 'free in spirit' but I suspect there's still a rather bad piece of carnal minded think in the reading. I tend to see the word 'free' as 'free to do' and that's a problem because not actually sure what Ill be free to do though there's a fair few things I sure I won't be free to do and expect I won't want to. The snag is that all those things are things I don't want to do now if I can help it and that seems very carnal minded, hence my original post in this thread which, I admit, was probably not as clear as when I first conceived it.

  Hi  there  CST ,

     For me it is mankind  trying to figure  out God  , and that is  not possible ..     and it goes into many things  , but keeping it simple as a child can  understand it  , is what helps the most , cause if Rose  starts adding to the word of God or taking away  ,  than  here  comes trouble  ,   this is why the Lord said let your yes , be yes and no be no , anything more   evil is present   and ready to  bind us   up again  and cast us   into prison    for judgment .
    Jesus did some amazing "miracles    same as signs   " and said tell no man    , man would hinder      the Spirit
  always a  3 part   thing for some reason ,

Here is what helped me the very most   ,  If you can see God  made Adam in the beginning  in His own  image [ Gen1 ]     that is Spirit   and  in Gen 2  as  a soul[ nephesh   a   creature  of the earth  [subject to vanity and emptiness   futility   in other words fruitless and  subject to  corruption  bondage to sin and error  ]    dust of the ground   with  a breath in Him      and the 3rd part and best part  the BODY   of Christ ... 

   we are in the body of Adam  death realm and also in the Body of Christ LIVING   realm , that is the heavenly  place  , we  go in and out , remember  Jesus telling his  chosen  few    , pray , pray  pray   to not fall into  temptation ,   for the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak [This to me is one big reason  why Jesus  CHRIST  IS THE LORD master   / teacher   ruler of the dead and the living   and contains ALL THINGS    till GOD BE ALL IN ALL  ,,,    Jesus christ is RECONCILING  all things to  the  FATHER   and no man knows !!  you look at the world and see Chaos  and it looks    like the opposite  ,,,    but the Spirit knows all things  are working together for the good of those , love Him  and   whom are  called according to His own purpose ..     We get to partake of the Spirit in a  small way here and now  and become apart of the BIG PICTURE  .

  Why would Jesus call this a  fall  or enterance  into  a place  of temptation?  , that to me is the lower  state of being    carnal minded     from a higher  state of being    Spiritual minded ..
  Pray    we do not enter   or  fall   , stumble    trip up  , into temptation   is the sleeping in Adam      Matt 26 Jesus Prays at Gethsemane
...40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?

41"Keep watching and praying that you may not enter/ fall  into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."...

now I do believe   that   in Adam all die or    consider it    a  sleep  in sorrow   ,    this is because God shortened the days of our weakened  flesh   ,     from 930 years of being subjected to     evil and all the vile   things in mans hearts  coming forth  being ruled by SIN / ERROR / MISSING THE MARK  ..

To me the mark is the seal of   God and redemption  though GODS grace  and mercy  on us ,   the covenant  of promises made throughout the WORD OF GOD ..

Prayer is key to keeping the hearts door open    to receive     the things of the Holy Spirit   , and the time to close the   hearts door   and wait on the Lord to do  His thing   because He is with you  ,  as  the overflowing scourge passes   over us ,  Just as the lambs   blood was on the door post  in the days of Israel    we too experience the same  chastening    of obedience or disobedience  , or we too will be swept  away   by the flood of lies 

Babylon is what  we are to avoid  , and that is the mixing   of good and evil and all becomes spoiled and useless   ,  because corruption has entered in  a little leaven    can  cause a rising , in the good  and also in the evil    and this is the  discerning the spirits if they be of God or not ..

  Because it is a spiritual warfare   we are battling  with  on a daily basis  and if GOD  be fore you who can be against you ?


   There is  as much or as little   you can   experience   all depending on what the Lord has called and  chosen you to experience  in this   time  on earth , but I believe it is only the beginning   of making all things new   within us
  You / none would not even believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God without the HOLY SPIRIT   giving it to us  as a free gift  and if you use the gift for   good and   GOD  in HIS MERCY will give the increase    according to His  desire   .

I have those carnal moments and am tempted to  fall from GODS   GRACE  but  always asking Jesus for help and tell Him constantly   LORD YOU  know me better than  I know myself ,  Just like Peter was  in error  and was called   satan / adversary to GODS WILL  / desire    ,  I too miss  the mark and  error and pay for it with  , not  getting to stay in the Spirit  of peace and joy in the Lord , but God sure knows we want to   be with Him..    and please HIM  and love Him like he loves us       

Bother, I've somehow managed to lose everything I was replying to you. I'll try to remember to try again later.

Have I used the word 'impartial' wrongly? I thought lines like "God is not a respecter of persons." And instructions to use to use fair measure and not be biased in our judgments are instructions that tend towards impartiality and fairness, yes?

Saying: For God had consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on some of them, which is what the eternal torment and annihilation groups appear to read it as saying, that would be partial wouldn't it?

I'm really confused now. Though I concede I find it hard to imagine God being impartial in an absolute sense, of course, I struggle to see how if He was completely impartial He could make any decisions at all. So I used to think He was partial to justice though now I think that may just have been the legalist in me.

If God is completely impartial, how does He choose Jeremiah before he was born and call him from his mother's womb.

I agree God is no respecter of persons.  But neither is He so impartial that He has cast us adrift in a purely free will paradigm to choose to reject Him eternally, or to suffer eternal torment for rejecting Him in this life. He is partial to His kind intention which he purposed in Himself, to gather all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things in earth. He has imposed limits upon man's will, because he is a merciful Father.

Organized religion has no answers for verses like James 1... "He brought us forth by the word of truth to be a sort of first-fruits of His creation", or  Romans 8

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

or Ro 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things"

or 1 Cor 15:22-28 "For as in Adam all men died so also in Christ shall all men be made alive".... "that God may be all in all"

Whatever they read that does not fit into their systematic theology- they simply ignore or gloss over.

Eph 1  In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth

He has predestined the salvation of all, and created all things with the original purpose, already in mind and completed in the Logos- a process working out through the ages of gathering all things into one in Christ,, by the cross of Jesus Christ.

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"

"Behold I am making all things new"

I'm pretty sure that statement about the role Jeremiah has been chosen or, I think more accurately, made for. To me God would only be partial if while choosing Jeremiah there were other people God had made and just allowed them to blunder around aimlessly with no hope for anything. Like they were conceived out of wedlock so God wants nothing to do with them in this lifetime that sort of thing. If there were people that had no role in God's created order then God would be partial but I don't think that's true although it can sometimes be hard not to get feeling that it's true.

I certainly didn't intend to suggest God's impartiality is equal to indifference although I suppose I understand how you can think I might mean that. I'm just using it identically, or roughly, to favoritism. Which God definitely doesn't have.

I agree with what you are saying at the end of that paragraph, unless that means I'm unwilling taing on board hing i don't agree with because I don't see all the implications, but don't see how the quotes you gave show God not to be impartial in the way I'm trying to use the term.

I find it hard to imagine God being impartial in an absolute sense, of course, I struggle to see how if He was completely impartial He could make any decisions at all.

Yes, I personally believe the "God is no respecter of persons" is often misused/misapplied.  I see that as in context, Peter realized the Gentiles were also included in the Good News, not just Jews [exclusively] favored.  For me an accurate application is also that each will be saved - however, and this is where the "no respecter" can be misused - it's still each in his own order.

So in some respects, as things "play out", I believe God (for whatever reason) does choose/favor/pick certain people or groups to serve different purposes (honor/dishonor/"hardened hearts", turned from Israel for a season, etc.).  So day-to-day it may appear some are favored and some are cursed/chosen to struggle.  However, when it's all said and done, there will be no one left out, i.e., "no respecter of persons".   :2c:

I believe that's where I/we need to trust God in His sovereignty.

Yes, because He made everything exactly as it is for His intended original purposes. He choose Jeremiah to deliver His message through Jeremiah to Israel because he was ideally placed in Israel. It would be pointless to choose someone from some other time or place it would cause all sorts of problems we can't conceive.

He Jeremiah for this purpose because He had made Jeremiah for this purpose.

For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons

whereas

when He chooses one  BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons

Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour

No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another

But apparently some didn't work the vineyards at all it seems.

For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons

whereas

when He chooses one  BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons

Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour

No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another

yes,,, :iagree:

:iagree:

The fleshly nature turns the journey into a COMPETITION (a winner and a loser)

Whereas

His Spirit nature turns the journey into a CELEBRATION (all win)

Hooray!

[jugghead]

For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons

whereas

when He chooses one  BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons

Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour

No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another

But apparently some didn't work the vineyards at all it seems.

Yes we can assume that some did not work the vineyards and I believe some didn't (or don't) ..... but ..... to assume that those who did not work  will not benefit from the fruits of the labors of another  ..... is to nullify His Work (and His work in us)..... "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) .....

Our work (our calling) is TO UNDERSTAND what we have been "freely given" through the work of Christ so that others benefit from that same understanding, we bring hope to the lost (those who do not understand).

Just because they are not called to work does not nullify their benefit of the fruits

and this I believe you know already

my  :2c:

[CST]

I am yes, but I felt like mentioning because I'm not sure what to do with the parable at that point it seems to have very limited scope after that and only refers to the "saved nows" and doesn't refer at all to the "saved laters" which it seems to give no information of.

[Dandelion]

Maybe I just want to believe this, but I think we all have a divine calling from God.

Does it look divine to us, when it is someone else's calling.....probably, most of the time, it doesn't.

Do we all accept the calling? I would say definitely not. At least, not always here on earth.

I don't believe that God would make us all to love Him, and to be loved by Him, and yet not make us for a godly mission.

I am certainly not sure how this all plays out, but it fits my belief, of who God is. And, hopefully, it is the Spirit, directing me to this vision of humanity.

As a Special Education teacher, I have worked with profoundly and severely handicapped children and adults. Many of them have taught me priceless, divine lessons.

No one is beyond God's ability to call them to carry out His will. Certainly, the O.T. Bible Stories should teach us this.

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

My   :2c:

D.                       :girlheart:

[jugghead]

was lead to speak my mind

Maybe I just want to believe this, but I think we all have a divine calling from God.

Yes, I believe that also, we are either called to be a vessel of honor here and now (in the physical realm) or a vessel of dishonor here and now (in the physical realm)..... and who are we to judge another if his calling was a vessel of dishonor? When that person dies and his spirit returns to the Father, would not the Father say "well done good and faithful servant" if his calling was to be a vessel of dishonor in the physical realm? Just look at Judas Iscariot, he was called to betray Jesus, to carry out a part of the Father's plan of the crucifixion of Christ which we know leads to the salvation of all. I myself, will honor Judas in his calling, for he did what he was called to do even though he did not know what he was doing. I will forgive him for he knew not what he did.

Does it look divine to us, when it is someone else's calling.....probably, most of the time, it doesn't.

This is answered with the first explanation in the calling of Judas, it may not look like it was divine calling, but it was

Do we all accept the calling? I would say definitely not. At least, not always here on earth.

We either accept it willingly or unwillingly depending on what the Father has called us to do. (honor or dishonor in this realm)

I don't believe that God would make us all to love Him, and to be loved by Him, and yet not make us for a godly mission.

Again, each persons part is played out by His design, honor or dishonor in this realm ..... either/or it is a godly mission

I am certainly not sure how this all plays out, but it fits my belief, of who God is. And, hopefully, it is the Spirit, directing me to this vision of humanity.

It is His Spirit directing you

As a Special Education teacher, I have worked with profoundly and severely handicapped children and adults. Many of them have taught me priceless, divine lessons.

Have they not fulfilled their calling if they have taught you something priceless? You and I both believe it so

No one is beyond God's ability to call them to carry out His will. Certainly, the O.T. Bible Stories should teach us this.

His will be done

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Again, is not our perspective to believe ..... "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)
Was not Judas called according to the Father's purpose, he may not have loved God the way we view it, but he did without even knowing it by carrying out the Father's purpose in him.

My   :2c:

and that is also my  :2c:

[eaglesway]

Judas is an interesting case. The "mystery of iniquity" is, imo, the place where the truth of choice and accountability and predestination meet and overlap.

[Dandelion]

Maybe Judas missed the final step he was supposed to play out, but didn't.......to ask Jesus for forgiveness. 

Perhaps guilt, prompted by the evil one, or his personal demons, got the better of him.

Again, my  :2c:

D.

[lastpost]

Personally, I believe that Jesus died in the flesh on the Cross and was raised in the spirit in which He 'descended' and preached to spirits in prison that they might live according to God in the Spirit – and while He was on this mission, just like the loving Saviour, He also visited Judas and showed him His overwhelming love.

But that's just my belief.

[Dandelion]

Well, of course, if we are Christian Universalists, we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.

I just don't know if that happened on this side, or if it had to wait until Judas got to the other side.

Of course, the sooner the better, seems to me.       :gsmile:

D.

[darryl]

Eaglesway,
Too bad we are scattered all over the world, but at least we have the fellowship here.

:dsunny:

that's the sad bit..the 'hellists' are well organized, have tons of churches..where do the URs go to fellowship?..seems to be hardly any true UR churches around.Coming here is good but it's not the same as face to face fellowship  :dunno2:

[marie glen]

The direction of this thread has reminded me of the idea that the role of each and every person, even despots, that their role will in the end have been perfect.. As with the potential of possible evil being pretty much endless, and our Father, i think is teaching and demonstrating to all that very thing- someone had to play the roles of despots.. I do think their repentence will be more heart wrenching but that too 'has' to be acted out.. in thisHis "suffering all nations to walk their own ways" Acts 16:14 ..it's why I could never believe in an overly harsh afterlife, or rather judgment day for most since it is all God's choosing.. :smile:

[darryl]

Eaglesway,
Too bad we are scattered all over the world, but at least we have the fellowship here.

:dsunny:

that's the sad bit..the 'hellists' are well organized, have tons of churches..where do the URs go to fellowship?..seems to be hardly any true UR churches around.Coming here is good but it's not the same as face to face fellowship  :dunno2:

which leads to the question, 'Where have all the Christian Universalists gone ?'. Here's a great article which perhaps gives an answer.(I do not mean to change the topic or direction of this thread, should probably start a new thread on this but just adding this article as a side note, forgive me ).I have boldened the words that I feel are extra important.

Where Have All the Universalists Gone?
Ken R. VincentBy Ken R. Vincent

One of the great religious mysteries is how the Universalist Church in America — once the 6th largest denomination in the United States — could shrink to its current minority status within the Unitarian Universalist (UU) denomination. In a recent article in the Review of Religious Research entitled, "Some UU's are more U than U," James Casebolt and Tiffany Niekro note that only 19% of UU's identify themselves as Universalist. Since UU's comprise only one-tenth of 1% of Americans, calculating "19% of one-tenth of 1%" may seem like embarrassingly inconsequential number. To make matters worse, some UU's have co-opted the word "Universalist" but invented new meanings that rob the term of its impressive history. But do not despair! I'm here to tell you that Universalism thrives — not as a separate denomination, but as a critically important way of understanding God that is more relevant than ever for today's complex, pluralistic world.

Let's review some Universalist basics. Universalism asserts that God is too good to condemn humankind to Eternal Hell and that, sooner or later, ALL humanity will be saved. Hell is for rehabilitation/purification and not eternal. This theological position is supported by numerous verses found in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. While a belief in Universal Salvation can be found in virtually all the world's major religions, Universalism in the West for the last 2,000 years has been understood to mean Universalist Christianity. Our earliest written account advocating Christian Universalism is by Clement of Alexander in the 2nd century, but his pupil Origen was Universalism's most influential theorist. In the 6th century, Universalism was dealt a blow when Origen's work was condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, although it remained viable in the Church of the East (Nestorians and Jacobites). In the West, Universalist theology was relegated to the realm of Mystics until the Reformation when it was "resurrected."

When the Unitarians and Universalists "married" in 1961... Universalist theology schools were closed, including the flagship theology school at Tufts University.
The decline of the Universalist church as an independent denomination is most often attributed to the success of its doctrine of God's love for ALL! When other denominations began to acknowledge the power of this hopeful and inclusive message, they were motivated to moderate their emphasis on Hell-fire, brimstone, and predestination! Consequently, parishioners who embraced the Universalist view could remain in their traditional congregations rather than relocate in a Universalist church. Patrick Murfin adds that rural Universalist churches were hurt by migration to the cities and that tiny Universalist churches in the American West were devastated by the Depression. When the Unitarians and Universalists "married" in 1961 (Universalists had the larger "dowry" but fewer members), Universalist theology schools were closed, including the flagship theology school at Tufts University.

In my pursuit to better understand the place of Universalists and their church in American history, I was fortunate to discover copies of the weekly Universalist magazine The Universalist Leader/The Christian Leader (the name changed) at the Rice University Library in Houston where I live. This urbane Boston-based weekly published articles on theology, history, biography, current events, and church groups. Besides Universalists, the magazine had occasional contributors who were Unitarians, Congregationalists, and liberal Jews.

Reading through the available issues of the Leader from 1922 to 1942, I was pleased to find that Universalists during this 20-year period were Liberal Christians in every sense of the word! Articles advocating women's rights, minority rights, and birth control were common. Missionary work to China, Japan, black churches in the rural South, and remote states like Texas was also reported. Much attention was given to the building of the Universalist National Memorial Church, which was to be Universalism's "cathedral" in the nation's capitol. While rural Universalists had often been advocates of prohibition, I found only an occasional article lamenting its failure. A few entries did confirm the presence of Bible literalists in the denomination, particularly in the South and Texas.

One of the most fascinating topics for me was the reaction of these Universalists to the theological bomb that altered Unitarianism forever — the Humanist Manifesto — published by a group of Unitarian ministers in 1933. (One wonders if the great American Transcendentalist Mystic Ralph Waldo Emerson could have predicted this when he called his Unitarian church "an icehouse" and lamented the "corpse cold Unitarianism of Harvard College and Brattle Street.") Most Universalists reacted to this with shock, did not know what to make of it, and questioned how to respond to it. However, the Leader printed opinions both "pro" and "con" on the subject; many writers assumed that the type of Humanism that the Unitarians were advocating was the kind of Renaissance Humanism of virtually all Progressives. While articles by Unitarians consistently reflected their ongoing, major soul-searching, obsessive rumination, navel-gazing, and continuing identity crisis, I was inspired by the ever-optimistic Universalists who went blissfully on with their Liberal Christianity. Although acutely aware of the evil of Hitler early in his rise, and showing skepticism for Communism, the Leader consistently reflected an optimism that problems could be solved, and the world could be a better place! Especially significant was the Universalists' openness to world religions (which had come to the forefront of Universalism during the Parliament of World Religions at the end of the 19th Century).

Our Universalist forbears who published Leader would not have been surprised at the merger of the Universalists with the Unitarians in 1961. The issues I read reported often on proposals that had been discussed for years about joining not only the Unitarians but also the Congregationalists to form a "super" Liberal Christian denomination! I do think they would be shocked that the denomination today is no longer exclusively Universalist (ALL are saved) with today's membership spanning views from annihilation to reincarnation. Similarly, UU's are not necessarily exclusively Unitarian (i.e., advocating One God in opposition to the Trinity), with members advocating beliefs from atheism to polytheism. Finally, I think our Universalist ancestors would find it puzzling that Unitarian Christianity and Universalist Christianity are only minority positions within what has become an interfaith church.

So — where have all the Universalists gone? In the 21st Century, Universalists are everywhere! Believers in Universalism can be found in virtually all Christian denominations, as well as other world religions. Being Universalist involves a change of heart rather than a change in denomination! Universalism is part of the theology of the Church of Christ Scientist and the Unity Church of Christianity. The American Baptist Church is "sort-of" Universalist, as a recent survey found that 75% of their members do not believe in Eternal Hell. Let us now explore the options for Universalists in the United States today which include: 1) "Virtual" Universalists, 2) "Latent" Universalists, 3) "Closet" Universalists, 4) "Independent" Universalists, and 5) "Experiential" Universalists.

"Virtual" Universalism was born as a result of the Internet. For a few hundred dollars a year, an individual or small group can now publish its theology on the worldwide web, and Universalist web pages have appeared advocating a variety of Universalisms. The views range from the extreme Bible literalists, to liberal Christians, to Universalism in world religions. A couple of years ago, I became webmaster for the Universalist Herald ("The Oldest Continuously Published Liberal Religious Periodical in North America"). When I initiated its website (www.universalist-herald.net), I began exploring other Universalist websites with the ambitious goal of providing "links" to all the Universalist websites via our own. I have been pleasantly surprised to find that this was not possible; although I continually search the net for new links to Universalist Christianity and Universalism in world religions, more sites continually are added, faster than I can evaluate them! Some "Christian" Universalists are so fundamentalist as to exclude the UU denomination from their fold! I found one "Unitarian" site that has an article by someone who doesn't believe in Universalism. The Universalist Herald website does include links to conservative Christian sites; two of these sites (Tentmaker and True Grace Ministries) have more Universalist history on them than any UU site. True Grace Ministries even includes some 19th Century articles from the Universalist Herald. Our web links include three Quaker Universalist sites and one site of Universalism in world religions. It is gratifying to see that a lot of people in a lot of places are promoting Universalism in general and Universalist Christianity in particular.

94% of Americans believe in God and 86% believe in Heaven, but only 71% believe in Hell. ... Using population figures from the 2000 U.S. Census, this means that there are 43 million "Latent" Universalists in the United States!
"Latent" Universalists are the next category. In his book Psychology and Religion, Michael Argyle sites a 1992 survey that found 94% of Americans believe in God and 86% believe in Heaven, but only 71% believe in Hell. This 15% discrepancy between belief in Heaven and Hell is a routine finding in sociological surveys; sometimes the discrepancy is as high as 20%. Using population figures from the 2000 U.S. Census, this means that there are 43 million "Latent" Universalists in the United States! Many of them probably would be surprised to learn that there is a longstanding, honorable theological position which affirms their beliefs! The web is one way to let them know that there is a name for what they believe — "Universalism." If we could herd all these folks into one denomination, we could give the Fundamentalists a run for their money!

"Closet" Universalists are folks whose personal theology is Universalist and who base their belief on the Bible (or in the case of non-Christians, other holy books). They choose to stay within their traditional denomination — sometimes because of their spouse/partner's wishes, sometimes because of tradition, and sometimes because their city or town offers no alternative. Occasionally they do "come out" as Universalists but remain within their denomination. An impressive immerging subset of "Closet" Universalists is authors who write about Universalism but choose to maintain their identity with another Christian denomination. (Go to the "Books" tab on the Universalist Herald website for proof!) For example, Philip Gulley and James Mulholland (Quaker ministers) have written If Grace Is True and If God Is Love. Both books are selling very well and represent a real break-through into the marketing of Universalist books to the general public. Dennis, Sheila, and Matthew Linn (Roman Catholics) wrote a wonderful little book that is even suitable for teenagers called Good Goats. It has been in print for 12 years and received an Imprimi Potest (Seal of Approval) from the Catholic Church. (This gives us hope that the Catholics will eventually get around to rehabilitating Origen!) Other current authors advocating Universalist theology are American Baptist, Anglican, Dutch Reformed, Mennonite, Methodist, and Presbyterian. And the list is growing!

"Independent" Universalists have always been with us. These folks are very much Universalist in belief but are not members of any church. A good example of this is Thomas Talbott who wrote The Inescapable Love of God. A while back, I wrote Prof. Talbott to ask his denomination. He replied that he had belonged to the Church of Christ until his church found out he was a Universalist, and they removed him from their rolls! Another example is Gary and Michelle Amirault who are the creators of Tentmaker.org, one of the largest Universalist websites. They are not affiliated with any denomination but occasionally have Universalist "revivals" on their property. By far the most famous "Independent" Universalist was Abraham Lincoln who never joined a church. (This was not too unusual for his day as only 16% of Americans were church members in 1850. The number of Americans belonging to churches continued to rise until the 1960's when it reached a high water mark of 63%.) In his book The Almost Chosen People, later re-published as The Religion of Abraham Lincoln, Prof. William Wolf notes that Abraham Lincoln was a Universalist throughout his life. He lists three sources documenting that his Universalist beliefs were present in his youth and remained throughout his life. All three sources stated that Lincoln knew his Bible and could expand on Universalism at length. Lincoln was fond of repeating a jingle about a Native American, Johnny Kongapod: "Here lies poor Johnny Kongapod. Have mercy on him Gracious God, as he would do if he was God, and you were Johnny Kongapod." Another of Lincoln's frequent quotations was from St. Paul: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (I Cor. 15:22)

Finally, we come to one of the most dramatic changes to Universalism that can be described, and that is the category of "Experiential" Universalists. Through their personal religious mystical experiences, the unconditional love of God for ALL was made known to them. For the past 150 years, physicians and social scientists have been studying religious experience. In the 19th century, the Society for Psychical Research was founded to study this data academically, and in the early 20th century, William James' classic work, Varieties of Religious Experience, was published. While research in this area waned during the heydays of Marxism and Freudianism (1930 – 1960), scientific research on religious experience since 1960 has been prolific and persuasive.

Osis and Haraldsson researched deathbed visions in the United States and India and verified a cross-cultural consistency, although the religious figures seen in deathbed visions varied according to the person's religious background. Regardless of their religion, those dying reported dead relatives and religious figures coming to take them away to the afterlife. In over 1700 accounts, there was not one case in which the take-away person was an apparition of someone still alive. The physicians and nurses who reported the deathbed visions noted only one case that was Hellish. Shortly after this, the Religious Experience Research Centre founded by Sir Allister Hardy at Oxford (now at University of Wales, Lampeter) reported on 3000 cases of mystical religious experiences by ordinary people; only 5% of these were negative experiences. Over the years, research into developed countries has reported about 40% of their populations report mystical religious experiences on questionnaire; this goes up to 60% + when people are queried via personal interview. The numbers seem to be increasing, probably because more people are coming out of their spiritual "closet." Nothing changes one's mind like being personally touched by God! In addition to mystical religious experiences happening to a large number of people, we also have learned through modern research that the majority of these folks are normal or healthy and that, just as in the case of St. Paul in ancient times, they change the lives. Those who have mystical religious experiences report being more oriented toward helping others and improving society. Many researchers from William James onward are convinced that religious experiences like these are the basis for the writings of the world's religions. Over and over in the Bible we read of prophets having a mystical experience that empowers them to speak on God's behalf (e.g. Isaiah 6:1-8; II Corinthians 12:2-4).

Although in my mind, as a social scientist and religious researcher, the mystical religious experiences are the really big news, another phenomenon related to religion and afterlife has generated the most interest with the public: the near-death experience. Near-death experiences are not unique to modern man; Plato wrote about the near-death experience of a man named Er in his Republic. And Universalists have a premier 18th century account in the autobiography of one of our own — Dr. George De Benneville. Thanks to modern resuscitation techniques, near-death experiences have become commonplace. While people occasionally report going to Hell, others report being rescued from Hell when they call out to God. Without question, the overwhelming majority of near-death experiences are positive. This has had an effect on the mindset of the general population regarding afterlife. A recent poll conducted by Beliefnet found 84% of their readers felt that the near-death experience was proof of afterlife. The physicians and social scientists who research this phenomenon are more cautious, but virtually all of them agree that near-death experiences, death-bed visions and related phenomena do point to afterlife. As William James said, "religion, in fact, for the great majority of our race, means immortality and nothing else." At the very least, mystical religious experiences and near-death experiences serve to invalidate the claims of Christian exclusivity.

Universalism has been part of Christianity from its earliest days. Like Zoroastrianism (Zoroaster preached Universal Salvation around 600BCE or earlier), Universalism is now imbedded within other denominations and religions. Is the growing number of Universalists sufficient to counter the evils of Christian exclusivity which continues to claim that God loves only people of a particular brand, of a specific sect, of a special religion? Or is it time for a revival of the Universalist Church — gathering together all who enthusiastically affirm that God is too good to condemn people to Eternal Hell? Universalism holds the key for resolving the strife in our modern, pluralistic world community. For people trapped in the dogma of Fundamentalism, Universalism offers a Bible-based alternative more essential today than ever — a God who promises ALL will be saved.

This article appeared in the January/February 2006 issue of The Universalist Herald. Ken R. Vincent, Ed.D., is Webmaster of Universalist-Herald.net. He is the author of The Golden Thread: God's Promise of Universal Salvation. Dr. Vincent served as a founding Board member of the Christian Universalist Association.

[eaglesway]

I think it is important to remember that all of the churches the epistles were written to were "universalist" churches, in that they all held the salvation of all as a foundation doctrine.

Yet they had many serious problems among them.

Spiritual warfare is always happening. Deception, seduction, division, sexual immorality, greed, etc.

There were overcoming churches and not so overcoming churches. But they were all universalist.... :o)

[lastpost]

we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.

We have different ideas about how that happens.

I understand that one who has darkened or blacknened their soul-body through what amounts to selfishness in varying degrees, can only take so much Light in a state of disembodiment due to the pain it causes, and should Jesus have appeared to Judas who had gone "to his own place" in His full Divine Presence without masking His Light somewhat, it would have horrified Judas.

Then one needs to consider the pain of treachery that Judas would be carrying around with him now knowing the truth, and even though the loving Saviour pours and pours His cleansing Love upon His fallen children, for Judas, about two thousand years ago, that Love would also have been a painful reminder of his act and the baser desires he would have had in his make-up to allow entry and possession of an wicked spirit, in my opinion.

But that was a long time ago, as we see it, and today I believe that Judas is in the position to know and understand the position and feelings of others who have betrayed their higher selves in the worst manner and is a powerful tool for God's use in aiding others.

Again, just the way I see it, in short.

[rosered]

  That is how I see it too   Lastpost

   when faith is put tot he test  , we  all   fall short ,  the thing is being reprobate  and the man of sin is exposed , it was a spirit on him  of disobedience

  we are not be partakers with it .  sin is utterly sinful   and every evil and vile thing    is contrary and goes against God  in every way

  Without  faith it is impossible to please God  ,,,   and becomes a cut off branch  and  tossed in the fire

  It  is God whom  grafts in what was lost  or destroyed  for all   to see , so we may fear Him ,    this fear of the Lord is both   being in awe and trembling  at His judgments   [presence ]     It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living   God

  Hebrews 10 A Call to Persevere
...30For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,...

All things work together  , the good and bad the  ugly , the ones whom do not know the depths of satan are blessed   , Judas was  one very unfortunate  to KNOW the depths of satan    , Just as Job was      , the church of  Thyatira  Jesus said he would put no other burden/ WORD heaviness, weight,  trouble  on them ..

To know the Love of God you are truly blessed     ..  the WORD OF GOD judges us all , what we have or think we have can be taken away  and given to another .
 
It is how we handle the Word of Life .
   

[lastpost]

  That is how I see it too   Lastpost

   when faith is put tot he test  , we  all   fall short ,  the thing is being reprobate  and the man of sin is exposed , it was a spirit on him  of disobedience

  we are not be partakers with it .  sin is utterly sinful   and every evil and vile thing    is contrary and goes against God  in every way

Rosered, we talk of sin and we have learnt it exists, we have experienced the pain it causes, we have known what it is to feel remorse and the need to repent - and we avoid it if we can.

Yet I believe it goes much deeper than that, or rather much more subtle in its ramifications, and that is regard to a future in a purer arena than the earth.

Tonight we heard a little about aiming for the best that we can perceive and never settling for second best. And how this must go on until one has been perfected as Christ is perfect. So even when one reaches the best that was perceived, it is found again that some more of the humility of Christ has been made one's own and that what once seemed the best has itself become second best.

This makes complete sense to me as Christ is of such a sacred purity that I know I am far from that ideal.

We were hearing this because of those of old whom we revere and how in fact they view their own state of spirituality and consciousness, something which may be difficult for some to account who have put themselves first, as it were.

[eaglesway]

we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.

We have different ideas about how that happens.

I understand that one who has darkened or blacknened their soul-body through what amounts to selfishness in varying degrees, can only take so much Light in a state of disembodiment due to the pain it causes, and should Jesus have appeared to Judas who had gone "to his own place" in His full Divine Presence without masking His Light somewhat, it would have horrified Judas.

Then one needs to consider the pain of treachery that Judas would be carrying around with him now knowing the truth, and even though the loving Saviour pours and pours His cleansing Love upon His fallen children, for Judas, about two thousand years ago, that Love would also have been a painful reminder of his act and the baser desires he would have had in his make-up to allow entry and possession of an wicked spirit, in my opinion.

But that was a long time ago, as we see it, and today I believe that Judas is in the position to know and understand the position and feelings of others who have betrayed their higher selves in the worst manner and is a powerful tool for God's use in aiding others.

Again, just the way I see it, in short.

I see it that way as well to some extent, in so far as it is like the two same ends of a magnet force each other away from each other.

God's self is perfect love, drawing into Himself all things in order to give life. Any other self seeking to draw into itself is an opposing force. The closed gate provides the resistance that drives it from the presence.  Light, darkness; love, hate; humility, arrogance; forgiveness, bitterness; etc., etc.

This is what I believe happened when Satan fell from heaven, the focus on exalting himself, as soon as it was conceived, literally repelled him out of the presence of God.

"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you....

Regardless of whether these verses refer to Satan of not, they reveal a process.

The longer a soul repels God in this way, the further into outer darkness they go. Thus the angels who "left their proper domain." If they perish in outer darkness they will be held their in aidos chains awaiting the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ.

On that Day the penetrating gaze of Jesus will look down into and through the innermost parts of their being, exposing all through by the eyes that are as flames of fire, and speaking the word that transforms darkness to light by the word that is quick(as in cut to the quick) and active(as in effectual) and sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, and in measure to ones stubborness, a painful experience for some adversaries.

All those who do not bow the knee in the Day are destined for this experience, about which we can see little in detail but much in principle, and I believe it is spoken of in relation to the works of the saints(1 Cor 3:13-17) and the hearts of apostates (1 Cor 5:5) and resolution of adversaries who remain opposed at the Great white Throne.

Gehenna, to me, is for the purging of garbage who have at some point touched God and been called by Him. The lake of fire , for me, is about the exposure of the secret thoughts and the consuming of darkness in the hearts of the adversaries- the removal of the veil. But they could be the same thing, metaphorical images of a process, such as...

"he will separate the wheat from the chaff..... He will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire." or "every branch that bears noi fruit will be withered, and cut-off, and men shall gather them and throw them into the fire."

Also, the wheat and tares.

we often read linear, Christ often speaks from eternity, the transitional point of all times, which we experience at death. So, to me, the harvest is death, the wheat and the tares are separated after the harvest. We read, "the end of the age" and see linear in time....but it is the end of the age for each and every one who dies, passing from this world to the next, whether as a sleeping soul or a completely dead soul or as a conscious disembodied spirit in such as in the rich man and Lazarus- well people can argue those points forever to no avail, to me it doesn't matter.

It will all come out in the wash.

I think all these processes are going on in this life, but will be manifested in much more intensive form in the age to come- aionian kolassis.

What I dont believe is that anybody is channeling anybody or anything(outside the Holy Spirit or some demon) from "beyond the veil", saint, sinner or otherwise.

[lastpost]

Yes, EW, I realise how this must be seen this way and appreciate the wider boundaries.

It will all come out in the wash.

And for some the wash cycle must be a long time, in my opinion.

I do not see this as a literal event, as if someone spent their whole life with a completely wicked and debased character and now they are presented with a choice to bend the knee. I rather think this is a short sentence describing a long process over time.

I believe one should be wary as to the categorisation into confined terms of the Holy Spirit and what is and is not possible. I envisage, if you will, the light on the horizon is a little brighter than it was, and when it arrives the Holy Spirit will be looking for selfless instruments who have made the complete surrender in order that the children of God may become mature sons and daughters, so that sleeping slumbering humanity may awaken to the reality of a reckoning, a consequence to its existence. It will be according to God's Will, it will be effective to humanity because humanity will grasp the meaning behind it. Then the Holy Spirit will grow even more in power and in effect and all of humanity will be drawn to the Christ, and will be seen by all bar a few doubters and scoffers.

In general, that's the gist of it for me.

[marie glen]

about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile: I believe this happened to Ephesus leader of the gnostic beliefs of matter is the evil, both before conversion and then later, making their first love fade..

[jabcat]

about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile:

I agree.  Ken Vincent's article was interesting, and generally seems on track/informative etc. to me.  I will mention, he is a unitarian universalist (generalizing, "anything/any belief [or nothing] goes").  That's one reason Gary has made sure to distinguish between Tentmaker as a Christian/Biblical UR, vs. other forms of universalism, many of which don't even suggest a belief or personal faith in Jesus Christ. 

[joeteekay]

about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile:

I agree.  Ken Vincent's article was interesting, and generally seems on track/informative etc. to me.  I will mention, he is a unitarian universalist (generalizing, "anything/any belief [or nothing] goes").  That's one reason Gary has made sure to distinguish between Tentmaker as a Christian/Biblical UR, vs. other forms of universalism, many of which don't even suggest a belief or personal faith in Jesus Christ.

I agree.
I dislike the word Universalist.  To most people it conveys some ideology in variance to what the Bible teaches.  It is true that the word Universalism is not found in the Bible.  The word brings to peoples minds a kind of new age thinking or an idea that the work of Christ is somehow diminished.  That also is unfortunate.  So I believe that Universalism is an inappropriate word when talking about God's plan for mankind.  Simply put: God through Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world. All will be saved. That is the simple truth that ultimately all will be saved and God will be ALL in all.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup: joe

[jugghead]

When a thought leaves the dominion of love, it becomes an entity unto itself to betray the very heart it was conceived in

[sheila]

 :2c: really I think the fault of men not understanding has nothing to do with translations,per se..but with the seals on the 'word' that only

the spirit of Christ is worthy to open unto us. Otherwise,surely the scribes and Pharisee's and sadducee's would have able to rightly

interpret...that there is a 'negative' that take's away or adds to the revelation of Christ to us is addressed.

    look! Rev 17;15..power over all tongues.  It is Jesus Christ who opens the scriptures unto us and makes our understanding

and receiving of the Bread from heaven which causes our hearts to burn within us when He does..and gives understanding.

  but there are many men who are not qualified to open the scrolls who also compete..false teachers..many false christs..who

add to the confusion[babylon] of man..and hold him in bondage through their [mis]understandings that do not set the captives free.

   never-the-less..we have His ultimate promise that all will be taught of God..and that God himself will finish our training..and

there shall be just spirits of men made perfect[understanding[truth] and Love=wisdom from above.

[jugghead]

God is:

Love of Wisdom AND Wisdom of Love ..... Love of Wisdom rules WITH Wisdom of Love .....  they rule together as One (equals)

Whereas in men:

love of wisdom rules OVER wisdom of love ..... which causes the division between the two