Considering Universalism - The philosophical problem of Gods justice

[Mr Sinn]

I've been pondering over a few philosophical conundrums recently, and as a result im seriously considering universalism.

I'd really appreciate some honest answers, particualry from former Arminians, to see if any of the philosophical issues I'm going to discuss were a problem for you?

I was raised in a Calvinist home, but have always believed in libertarian free will. For me, the way I see things, love is a relationship, but it's meaningless if coerced.

The problem I have with Arminianism is that it does not seem to eradicate the problem of predestination for the dammed. I can best describe Arminianism as a form of salvation based on a random Darwinian process.

Free will is hugely dependent on the opportunities that are availed to us. A great many will never hear the gospel, will never have the ability to understand the gospel or will not have developed the right temperament to see the light. The character we have has been shaped by our external sociological environment. If I was born into a family of thieves it's likely I would have become a thief.

Now here is a question, was this world randomly actualised to allow people to play out their lives. Do we all have the ability in principle to choose Christ, BUT that ability to choose is contingent on random events that happen to either aid or frustrate those opportune moments where we can choose?
Or is their something inherent in our very nature from pre-actualised souls, which "determines" us to be more or less open to choosing the light over others who aren't or never will be? (If the latter then it would seem we are complete deterministic)

Since choices seem to be based on ones character, and my character is Framed on my prior experience, and my prior experiences are framed on my prior choices, are we caught in a regress?

I guess if you believe in self determinism then you are inevitably going to arrive at a reductionist position at some point. The alternative would be to proceed to an infinite number of antecedent  causes beyond our own self will.

I had hoped molinism Would get me out of this paradox. That is, God uses his middle knowledge to actualise all counterfactuals in order to maximise spiritual flourishing. It is said this helps retain free will and Gods sovereignty.  Whilst appealing, it presents several problems. Is this the best world God could actualise, and if so why? And furthermore if god is able to have this much control then why create people who would willingly choose not to follow? We are back to the dammed being predestined, and this seems like harsh justice from an all merciful God who will arbitrarily consign people to burning in Hell forever. Better to just not create the unbelievers?

My only hope is that Gods Grace is merciful to as many as possible through general revelation.

Here's a final thought. If my friend asked me to go to the cinema for a film we both wanted to see, we both freely participated in a union which was not by coercion.

Could it be like this? That we will all freely choose Gods grace in the end, even if some of us have to go the long way round?

[GodIsLove]

Could it be like this? That we will all freely choose Gods grace in the end, even if some of us have to go the long way round?

You have touched on a lot of good points but I'm short on time so I will just say that the above quote from you is what I believe. God knows what each of us need in order to be reconciled and He is doing it on His timeline, allowing some to be consumed/destroyed by sin but ultimately brought back to Him. I believe, as some others here do, they the purpose of this is to learn good from evil, light from darkness, life from death.

Problems abound with Calvinism and Arminianism and you have touched on them in your post.

For me, my philosophical/spiritual crisis around hell was so intense my husband told me he thought I'd talk myself into atheism, but it instead brought me to Christian Universalism. I do feel that I was seeking and God answered.

I think that Calvinism makes God into a monster who chooses some over others arbitrarily, and Arminianism falls short for the reasons you stated as well (free will is affected by our environment, genetics, and some are seemingly given more opportunities to respond to God versus others).

I'd love to hear others views or for you to expand on yours, but these are my thoughts.

[marie glen]

Could it be like this? That we will all freely choose Gods grace in the end, even if some of us have to go the long way round?

That's not a bad conclusion.. in my humble opinion, that is.. but for me I don't think it quite says it.. except He designed it that way..! :Chinscratch:

Somewhere along the line (well a few years back when I was asked a couple of questions by someone very close to me - why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? and isn't it great we get to be an ant farm? i wasn't satisfied with my answers so prayed for a better understanding.)

what I ended up realizing is God himself is life (itself) what else would, could be? the spark and breath of life.. and, that He is perfection (surely!?) [Perfect makes no mistakes. Can lose nothing.] He has done all things just as they have been done, in order to bring about the very best of all possibilities.

When He endowed thinking ability a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities and potential came about (because with rationality comes, sooner or later, the ability to make choices (limited and not exactly 'free-will'). Once one chooses anything in thought, word or deed which differs with what He chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life). He, only able to be honest - well, there was the tree in the original garden - He is still creating mankind and the universe, not done w/ us yet.

He engineered all things in order to bring about the very best of all 'end' results..

Created man and woman and the universe, not only aFter the first-bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but it had matured into sedition and revolt (didn't He know what would happen? :laughing7: oF course, He did! :smile: ) And now all "in heaven and earth" are taking this unavoidable journey through imperfection all at once, together.

He is, i believe, letting mankind's choices run their course.. And built in the rescue/solution (His Son) from the very beginning/foundation - Since He opened the Pandora's box by endowing thinking ability, why would He allow any to perish (or worse) because of it?

He, being life, goes through, experiences and suffers through aLL sufferings which ever occur!! Why would He put Himself though all that? Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm, but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise/perfection. Un-breakable, because aLL will fully understand good from evil, which is (also) life from death-nonlife.. For all will have it deeply engraved upon their mind and heart that one cannot wander away from God/Life/Perfection, for to do so can only ever end in a self destructive puff of smoke.. (apocalypse, the unveiling).

This letting choice run its course, I believe, is God's truth proving drama! (What is the best teacher?) For a good drama one needs more than one character, hence we have the elect.. chosen by Him.. by no will of our own.. I think of it as a heavenly toss of the dice.. He has reasons for some coming to the truth in this lifetime.

And because whether one is included in 'the elect' or not, is all His choice and will, I think most not saved during this life, will spontaneously, in awe and wonder at rising and seeing His glorious face, will fall to their knees in joy.. It's only at the end of the chapter - and at the end(?) of what surely(?) will be a veRy long 'day' of the review of all things - is it said "those not believing will go to the lake of fire (washing, repentance) the 2nd death" (age-lasting) - but truly, after experiencing rising from their grave and witnessing the review of all history, who's not going to "believe"? -  imo, just a few reaLLy hard cases! :2c:

If He were not Perfect.. He too would fade.. therefor He must be perfect. Therefor the 'end' result of all this can onLy be, the utterly best one possible.

    :Peace2: :hiya:

[Lazarus Short]

Against all the philosophical considerations (see me sig below, as well) I always like to remind anyone concerned with God's justice that God's justice was to send His Own Son to die for us.  If you can get your mind around that, little else matters...well, maybe the fact that Hell does not exist.

[Shev]

I don't believe our choice - or will - has anything to do with the actual salvation process. God already provided salvation at the cross, before many of us has yet been born in the flesh. We are each born from above spiritually as Christ is revealed in us, and mature through the processing of the Father, and He works in us to do His will.

Proponents of free moral agency act as though God saving us sovereignly is akin to rape - a God forcing His love upon us. However, I would liken it more to the birth of a baby, who is born through a loving parental act of union that did not involve the unborn baby's will. Put another way, I do not think Paul prayed the sinners prayer on the way from his horse to the ground on the road to Damascus!

We were sold into slavery - from which we could not free ourselves - and subject to futility, but in hope, that the very creature sold into slavery might be purchased back by the blood of Jesus Christ. We have never been our own possession. We were slaves to sin, and now bondservants of Jesus Christ.

[Ross]

One of the simplest examples, for me, of our life;
We get no say in being conceived, or our birth in the physical state. While we are born we do not control where we are, what we are doing or the rate of our growth. We go through stages of developments over which we have no say. We cannot change our position in the which family in which we were born.
Yet we try to claim our spiritual birth and position.
The spiritual is superior to the physical. Paul goes through this in 1 Cor 15 As we were born in Adam so we will be born in Christ. The flesh had to come for us before the spiritual. Part of the master plan of the creator Who WILL NOT FAIL.

The predestination , I.M.O is like the first fruit of harvest. Pick the first fruit, then follow up with the rest later on.
Unfortunately the predestination is cast into a problem when the hell concept is brought into play. This twists the reality of the whole scheme of things.
For me one of the most pointed observations that is over looked; religions define love , yet they miss the point that we do not threaten people to love us with the fear of rejection or they would not really love us at all. Hell-fire makes God out to be a volatile scary God Who threatens us with the fear of total rejection if we do not come up to His standard. Yet perfect love casts out ALL fear. A humungus quandary.

Again in 1 Cor 15 Paul highlights that Christ's work exceeds Adam's failures.
He also highlights this in Romans 5. The more Paul shows this things he comes to point out that Christ set us free from the law of sin and of death. Christ did not fail.
Romans 9 through 11 explain the grace which is in place so that we will all be equal in value.
Galations and Colossians state there will no longer be Jew or Greek, barbarians or slaves, all will be all in Christ.

Then Paul also talks in 1 Cor  1and 2  how God has done this system so as rebuke the Jews who demand signs, and the Greeks who claim wisdom. For the wisdom of man is foolish compared to the wisdom of God.
Epitomised by this statement;
       1 Cor 3;11 " For no man can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

All highlighting the depth of the plan and the brilliance of our creator Who has the patience to teach us at our appointed time.

[GodIsLove]

One of the simplest examples, for me, of our life;
We get no say in being conceived, or our birth in the physical state. While we are born we do not control where we are, what we are doing or the rate of our growth. We go through stages of developments over which we have no say. We cannot change our position in the which family in which we were born.
Yet we try to claim our spiritual birth and position.
The spiritual is superior to the physical. Paul goes through this in 1 Cor 15 As we were born in Adam so we will be born in Christ. The flesh had to come for us before the spiritual. Part of the master plan of the creator Who WILL NOT FAIL.

The predestination , I.M.O is like the first fruit of harvest. Pick the first fruit, then follow up with the rest later on.
Unfortunately the predestination is cast into a problem when the hell concept is brought into play. This twists the reality of the whole scheme of things.
For me one of the most pointed observations that is over looked; religions define love , yet they miss the point that we do not threaten people to love us with the fear of rejection or they would not really love us at all. Hell-fire makes God out to be a volatile scary God Who threatens us with the fear of total rejection if we do not come up to His standard. Yet perfect love casts out ALL fear. A humungus quandary.

Again in 1 Cor 15 Paul highlights that Christ's work exceeds Adam's failures.
He also highlights this in Romans 5. The more Paul shows this things he comes to point out that Christ set us free from the law of sin and of death. Christ did not fail.
Romans 9 through 11 explain the grace which is in place so that we will all be equal in value.
Galations and Colossians state there will no longer be Jew or Greek, barbarians or slaves, all will be all in Christ.

Then Paul also talks in 1 Cor  1and 2  how God has done this system so as rebuke the Jews who demand signs, and the Greeks who claim wisdom. For the wisdom of man is foolish compared to the wisdom of God.
Epitomised by this statement;
       1 Cor 3;11 " For no man can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

All highlighting the depth of the plan and the brilliance of our creator Who has the patience to teach us at our appointed time.

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

I don't believe our choice - or will - has anything to do with the actual salvation process. God already provided salvation at the cross, before many of us has yet been born in the flesh. We are each born from above spiritually as Christ is revealed in us, and mature through the processing of the Father, and He works in us to do His will.

Proponents of free moral agency act as though God saving us sovereignly is akin to rape - a God forcing His love upon us. However, I would liken it more to the birth of a baby, who is born through a loving parental act of union that did not involve the unborn baby's will. Put another way, I do not think Paul prayed the sinners prayer on the way from his horse to the ground on the road to Damascus!

We were sold into slavery - from which we could not free ourselves - and subject to futility, but in hope, that the very creature sold into slavery might be purchased back by the blood of Jesus Christ. We have never been our own possession. We were slaves to sin, and now bondservants of Jesus Christ.

  I agree Saul was   chosen   way before   ''Paul ''    was   given a new name and purpose in Gods plan  of the ages ..

   He was  faithful in a few things even in the darkness  being ignorance of the   True Light of the gospel , His  zeal was   misplaced and done in   the law of old the bloody   law   and ministration of death ..    and brought much suffering to the  Body of Christ    ,   But was prophesied     you will suffer  many things for my names sake

Acts 9 Ananias Baptizes Saul
...15But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

16for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake." 17So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."...

Another prophecy fulfilled      ,  so the  Blind shall see [ restored ] and the seeing[sinful]  shall be made blind [innocent ] Isaiah 35

  For the law  is the knowledge of sin   Romans 3 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Isaiah 29:18
In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.

Isaiah 32:3
Then the eyes of those who see will no longer be closed, and the ears of those who hear will listen.

Isaiah 32:4
The fearful heart will know and understand, and the stammering tongue will be fluent and clear.

Isaiah 42:7
to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

Isaiah 42:16
I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.

Isaiah 42:18
"Hear, you deaf; look, you blind, and see!

Isaiah 50:4
The Sovereign LORD has given me a well-instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary. He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being instructed.


  Matt 25 The Parable of the Talents
...22"Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me.

See, I have gained two more talents.' 23"His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave.

You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'    Paul counted it all as joy !      and  to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified ...     the turning point    from the darkness to the Light

24"And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed....

   Paul become a seed sower    to the planting  of the Word in mankind's  hearts and the Light  would shine   out of the darkness [ blindness ]  ignorance   to the Knowledge of God though Jesus Christ  a repetitive process       that more Light and grace would come though the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ    the Love of God   to us   all   the ends of the earth ...   

[marie glen]

One of the simplest examples, for me, of our life;
We get no say in being conceived, or our birth in the physical state. While we are born we do not control where we are, what we are doing or the rate of our growth. We go through stages of developments over which we have no say. We cannot change our position in the which family in which we were born.
Yet we try to claim our spiritual birth and position.
The spiritual is superior to the physical. Paul goes through this in 1 Cor 15 As we were born in Adam so we will be born in Christ. The flesh had to come for us before the spiritual. Part of the master plan of the creator Who WILL NOT FAIL.

The predestination , I.M.O is like the first fruit of harvest. Pick the first fruit, then follow up with the rest later on.
Unfortunately the predestination is cast into a problem when the hell concept is brought into play. This twists the reality of the whole scheme of things.
For me one of the most pointed observations that is over looked; religions define love , yet they miss the point that we do not threaten people to love us with the fear of rejection or they would not really love us at all. Hell-fire makes God out to be a volatile scary God Who threatens us with the fear of total rejection if we do not come up to His standard. Yet perfect love casts out ALL fear. A humungus quandary.

Again in 1 Cor 15 Paul highlights that Christ's work exceeds Adam's failures.
He also highlights this in Romans 5. The more Paul shows this things he comes to point out that Christ set us free from the law of sin and of death. Christ did not fail.
Romans 9 through 11 explain the grace which is in place so that we will all be equal in value.
Galations and Colossians state there will no longer be Jew or Greek, barbarians or slaves, all will be all in Christ.

Then Paul also talks in 1 Cor  1and 2  how God has done this system so as rebuke the Jews who demand signs, and the Greeks who claim wisdom. For the wisdom of man is foolish compared to the wisdom of God.
Epitomised by this statement;
       1 Cor 3;11 " For no man can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

All highlighting the depth of the plan and the brilliance of our creator Who has the patience to teach us at our appointed time.

...Very well said Ross!

and well said every one!

                 :smile: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[CHB]

shev, Ross,

I couldn't have said it any better.  :thumbsup:

CHB

[rosered]

  :iagree:   Shev  and Ross  brilliant  :dsunny:

  :HeartThrob:

[Truth seeker]

I feel like the student listening to the teachers! All great posts here and you are all so great in helping each other. I hope these replies help you Mr Sinn. I read an interesting article about free will and how maybe Gods understanding of giving us free will is maybe different to our understanding. More of a "measure" of free will. A bit like when a parent  would have their  little kids on reigns and give them the free will to go their way but if they got to far the parent would pull them back. Im finding many times in history God has had his will lay priority over mans. I look at the story of Jonah and see how his free will choice was not to help the people of Nineveh yet God had other ideas. I am very new in many respects to bible study let alone universalism so forgive me if ive gone off track. Although God may give us free will I feel at a certain point he will step in.

[Mr Sinn]

Free will is a funny term really, but I agree we have a measure of free will if what we mean by that is a measure on choice.  But isn't that always the case?
Our choices are always restricted, I can't be in New York right now, i can't fly like superman, I can't lie and say I'm a man, because I am, I can't choose not to be born and I can't stop desiring food sex and love.

Our choices are massively conditioned by logic, upbringing, situations and desires.

Ive though a bit further in regards to why God created people that would never turn to the light. I think the answer is simple; because he created self determined entities - free will. If he only created entities that would choose the light, then God would be predetermining those entities choices - thus. Contradicting free will. People freely choose to come to God or not, but to say "why did God create people that would not choose Christ becomes meaningless if we accept people were given free will. It's not arbitrary or random why some souls choose to not turn to the light, because by the very nature of being self determined you cannot explain self determination by an appeal to an outside explanation. It is simply that by logical necessity of creating self determined creatures, some of those creatures will act contrary to Gods will.
What i do think however, is that God will create the best possible world to avail the best opportunities for people to come to the position to make the right choices and maximise spiritual flourishing. But ultimately if you believe in true self determination, then no amount of external conditioning will determine your ultimate destiny.

[eaglesway]

I personally do not believe God created anyone who would not turn to the light.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.(2 Cor 4)

I do believe God created humankind with choice, but....

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"(Jn 12:32) "Every knee shall bow whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"(Phil 2:9-11)


....He has predestined that all will choose Christ, in their appointed time.

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Cor 15:20-25)

Jesus was the "first-fruits from among the dead" and in Him we are the first-fruits as well, co-workers in the harvest of every living soul.

"Behold I am making all things new"

Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.(James 1:17,18)

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:17-19)

Which is why the whole creation groans, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the children of God.(Romans 8:22-28)

The superior glory of the love of God and the resurrection life of Christ will eventually win every argument against it, and transform every heart. That is why Paul was determined to know nothing among us but Christ and Him crucified. That is God's glorious work through the ages! :o) That is our calling and destiny in the resurrection!

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col 1:17-20)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Eph 1:9-23)

What glory!

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?  Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

God created all mankind and gave them a choice and cast them adrift in chaos and rebellion and futility, for the purpose of winning them all to Himself through the demonstration of His love, manifest in Christ crucified, into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Romans 8:18-21)

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),  and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.(Eph 2:5-10)

This is the glorious gospel, the GOOD NEWS, of the Lord Jesus Christ, His work finished from the foundation of the world, and the Sabbath rest of all those who believe!

And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."(Rev 21:5)

[GodIsLove]

EW  :thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

What i do think however, is that God will create the best possible world to avail the best opportunities for people to come to the position to make the right choices and maximise spiritual flourishing. But ultimately if you believe in true self determination, then no amount of external conditioning will determine your ultimate destiny

This I don't agree with. I can see no evidence that God has structured life on earth to give each human being the best opportunities to maximize spiritual flourishing. It is easy to look around and see that this cannot be the case.

I believe, like EW so beautifully put it (as always), that there are the first fruits here on earth and the rest of the harvest to come. I believe free will is constrained by our environment and genetics and many other things but it does exist, in a very limited fashion, like parents allowing children to make choices in order to learn from them.

I believe that everyone will be reconciled and that in a paradoxical way, it will be them freely choosing but it will also be God's will.

Romans 9:19 for who can resist His will?

He made us, we are His, how can our will overpower His, when we are finally in the presence of our creator who made us and loves us with more love than any love we have ever experienced here on earth?

I once heard it described as this: if you take the love of every mother gazing down at her newborn child, every mother who has ever existed in time combined, the love of God surpasses this.

[darryl]

What i do think however, is that God will create the best possible world to avail the best opportunities for people to come to the position to make the right choices and maximise spiritual flourishing. But ultimately if you believe in true self determination, then no amount of external conditioning will determine your ultimate destiny

Romans 9:19 for who can resist His will?

He made us, we are His, how can our will overpower His, when we are finally in the presence of our creator who made us and loves us with more love than any love we have ever experienced here on earth?

I once heard it described as this: if you take the love of every mother gazing down at her newborn child, every mother who has ever existed in time combined, the love of God surpasses this.

If the Bible didn't say certain things, I might not have embraced Universal Reconciliation simply because the idea is so stupendous...however. the fact is the Bible does say certain things...e.g, 2 Peter 3:9  says  ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Gk= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for 'willing' is = 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= 'tis'= anyone at all )  to perish, but everyone (Gk ='pantas' = all, everyone)  to come to repentance'.

The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance. What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation.

Therefore, what Almighty God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.

Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.If they are not all redeemed, God is not capable of getting what He wants to get. Honestly, people who believe millions will be eternally lost,who believe not all will ultimately be saved, are simply not believing what God plainly says  in His word.

If we are going to talk about so called 'free will' I must say that the Lord's will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him.

[darryl]

I've been pondering over a few philosophical conundrums recently, and as a result im seriously considering universalism.

I'd really appreciate some honest answers, particualry from former Arminians, to see if any of the philosophical issues I'm going to discuss were a problem for you?

I was raised in a Calvinist home, but have always believed in libertarian free will. For me, the way I see things, love is a relationship, but it's meaningless if coerced.

The problem I have with Arminianism is that it does not seem to eradicate the problem of predestination for the dammed. I can best describe Arminianism as a form of salvation based on a random Darwinian process.

Free will is hugely dependent on the opportunities that are availed to us. A great many will never hear the gospel, will never have the ability to understand the gospel or will not have developed the right temperament to see the light. The character we have has been shaped by our external sociological environment. If I was born into a family of thieves it's likely I would have become a thief.

Now here is a question, was this world randomly actualised to allow people to play out their lives. Do we all have the ability in principle to choose Christ, BUT that ability to choose is contingent on random events that happen to either aid or frustrate those opportune moments where we can choose?
Or is their something inherent in our very nature from pre-actualised souls, which "determines" us to be more or less open to choosing the light over others who aren't or never will be? (If the latter then it would seem we are complete deterministic)

Since choices seem to be based on ones character, and my character is Framed on my prior experience, and my prior experiences are framed on my prior choices, are we caught in a regress?

I guess if you believe in self determinism then you are inevitably going to arrive at a reductionist position at some point. The alternative would be to proceed to an infinite number of antecedent  causes beyond our own self will.

I had hoped molinism Would get me out of this paradox. That is, God uses his middle knowledge to actualise all counterfactuals in order to maximise spiritual flourishing. It is said this helps retain free will and Gods sovereignty.  Whilst appealing, it presents several problems. Is this the best world God could actualise, and if so why? And furthermore if god is able to have this much control then why create people who would willingly choose not to follow? We are back to the dammed being predestined, and this seems like harsh justice from an all merciful God who will arbitrarily consign people to burning in Hell forever. Better to just not create the unbelievers?

My only hope is that Gods Grace is merciful to as many as possible through general revelation.

Here's a final thought. If my friend asked me to go to the cinema for a film we both wanted to see, we both freely participated in a union which was not by coercion.

Could it be like this? That we will all freely choose Gods grace in the end, even if some of us have to go the long way round?

I have given my answer for this, above. God desires, no, more than that, He is planning, for NONE to perish.Please read 2 Peter 3 :9 in the original Greek (or read my post above ).

Obviously not all come to Him in this life because of circumstances, geography, lack of opportunity...a myriad of reasons.Where is the 'free will' in these myriad circumstances  ?.

Therefore there must be post- mortem salvation for many when God's will to save ultimately defeats the will of people to reject.

I also believe God never created anybody in the first place, who was absolutely irredeemable.

[GodIsLove]

Also in regards to justice (the title of your post), it fits with God's loving character and with biblical passages that our punishment would "fit the crime" and be corrective in nature.

Consider a prison inmate, who is rehabilitated and is able to re-enter society after paying the price for their crimes, versus one who is not given that opportunity. Consider also, how the Jewish law was structured to repay the victim, versus today's society where people are to go to jail for many different crimes but are often not given the chance to make amends with the victim.

Luke 12:47 " And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

1 Corinthians 3:15 "if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire."

These to me supports a finite "punishment" that is corrective in nature. How can you have fewer or more of eternity? And though I don't love the analogy of whipping a slave, why is the slaved whipped in this case? Probably to prevent them from offending the master again. Eternal punishment is not only horrific, it is also nonsensical in that what is the point of the punishment if the person can not learn from it?

Also, reward and punishment are actually very crude ways to get kids/people to do what we what. Because the behavior changes but usually not the heart and mind. What really works is love. A child who has behavioral problems usually has an abusive or unstable home environment, lack of love, lack of loving discipline and guidance. In my own experience, kids respond better to love than to threats or punishments. Not indulgent "love" without boundaries, but a true connection and showing them that I believe as God's creation they are worthy of my attention, guidance, and love.

Anyway, I think the "God's ways are higher than our ways" that is often quoted doesn't mean what some people think it does. We humans resort to using sticks and carrots to manipulate others, but I believe God uses love, which exposes all darkness and causes feelings of remorse/regret/repentance.

[rosered]

Also in regards to justice (the title of your post), it fits with God's loving character and with biblical passages that our punishment would "fit the crime" and be corrective in nature.

Consider a prison inmate, who is rehabilitated and is able to re-enter society after paying the price for their crimes, versus one who is not given that opportunity. Consider also, how the Jewish law was structured to repay the victim, versus today's society where people are to go to jail for many different crimes but are often not given the chance to make amends with the victim.

Luke 12:47 " And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

1 Corinthians 3:15 "if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire."

These to me supports a finite "punishment" that is corrective in nature. How can you have fewer or more of eternity? And though I don't love the analogy of whipping a slave, why is the slaved whipped in this case? Probably to prevent them from offending the master again. Eternal punishment is not only horrific, it is also nonsensical in that what is the point of the punishment if the person can not learn from it?

Also, reward and punishment are actually very crude ways to get kids/people to do what we what. Because the behavior changes but usually not the heart and mind. What really works is love. A child who has behavioral problems usually has an abusive or unstable home environment, lack of love, lack of loving discipline and guidance. In my own experience, kids respond better to love than to threats or punishments. Not indulgent "love" without boundaries, but a true connection and showing them that I believe as God's creation they are worthy of my attention, guidance, and love.

Anyway, I think the "God's ways are higher than our ways" that is often quoted doesn't mean what some people think it does. We humans resort to using sticks and carrots to manipulate others, but I believe God uses love, which exposes all darkness and causes feelings of remorse/regret/repentance.

  :thumbsup: :goodpost:

  I agree   !!  Grace of God seems to be that  perfect balance   of love and  correction .

  Where as      force under the old law  and covenant    just proved how rebellious  a child can become   :HeartThrob:

[Mr Sinn]

2 Thessalonians 1:9
   9   These will pay the penalty of a eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Matthew 25.46
46  And they will go away into eternal punishment. But the righteous ones will go into eternal life."

universalism may be true, I'm not ruling out that its a possibility. But when you read scripture such as that, cited above, the possibly of eternal damnation is clearly real. And I think the possibility must come by way of logical necessity, if we are truly self determining creatures.

[darryl]

2 Thessalonians 1:9
   9   These will pay the penalty of a eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Matthew 25.46
46  And they will go away into eternal punishment. But the righteous ones will go into eternal life."

universalism may be true, I'm not ruling out that its a possibility. But when you read scripture such as that, cited above, the possibly of eternal damnation is clearly real. And I think the possibility must come by way of logical necessity, if we are truly self determining creatures.

with these 2 verses, the problem  is you are reading a biased faulty English translation, not the original Greek...2 Thess 1:9 actually says aionion olethron ..

aionion does not automatically mean eternal in fact the Greek word  'aionion' in itself DOES NOT at all mean 'eternal or never ending..it has to do with 'age'...

'olethron' means destuction, yes...but what is it that is destroyed if not their wickedness leaving the redeemable elements of the person ?...the stuff that God can work with ?.

also, 'away from the presence of the Lord' is a faulty translation..it actually says 'from the face of the Lord'..here is the literal translation of 2 Thessalonians 1:9

Young's Literal Translation
'who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,'

the destruction issues forth from the face of the Lord..this verse does not say that human beings can suffer eternal separation, away from the presence of God.

similarly, the English translation of Matthew 25.46 is biased and faulty...here is the literal translation

And these shall go away to  aionion  corrective chastisement (kolasin), but the righteous to aionion zoen.'

'aionion life' (aionios zoe)  is knowing Jesus according to John 17:3   where its used more in a qualitative sense than quantitative.

Therefore a better  interpretation of  Matt 25:46 is that the unjust will enter  into a period of corrective chastisement whereas the just will enter into 'aionion life' or the life of deeper aionion relationship with Christ and knowing God.

These passages do not teach that God will  eternally torment human beings in a fiery hell.

You really must take the time to study passages like these in the original Greek language. There are several excellent online Greek lexicons that can help you.

These matters are too important to let some biased eternal hell believing translator translate them for you.

If you do not have time to study the original Greek please at least read  fair and impartial translations like 'Youngs Literal Translation'or even Mitchell's Translation which are way closer to the meaning of the original Greek than the biased translations you are quoting.

[eaglesway]

2 thess 1:9

An interesting thing about this verse is that it is the only place in the scriptures where "apo" is translated as "away from".

Out of 650 occurences in the NT

Matt 15:1 Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from (apo) Jerusalem

John 7:28 Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, "You both know Me and know where I am from (apo); and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know

Luke 4:36 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of (apo) him!" And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst of the people, he came out of(apo) him without doing him any harm.

In 649 other occurences it is rendered "from", "by", "of" and never once away from.

1 thess 2:9 ought to read

who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction(aionian kolassis) from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,(ESV)

This is apo, "from" or "out of" or "of" or "by"

aionian kolassis, age-during correction by the presence of the Lord, or, "out of" His face.

This is in keeping with Revelations 14:10

he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, (YLT)

he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence(enópios) of the Lamb.(NAS)

It is from the face of the Lamb that the torment comes presence = face

Strong's Concordance
enópios: in sight of, before
Original Word: ἐνώπιον
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: enópios
Phonetic Spelling: (en-o'-pee-on)
Short Definition: before the face of, in the presence of
Definition: before the face of, in the presence of, in the eyes of.

"Hide us from the face of the lamb and the one who sits on the throne"

His face shines like the sun, His eyes are as flames of fire. The righteous shine in that fire, the wicked are in torment until they relent, "Every knee shall bow".

2 Thess 1:9 is one of the most blatant and egregious mistranslations, disproved by etymology and context in the rest of the scriptures.

Heb 4:12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

[darryl]

2 Thess 1:9 is one of the most blatant and egregious mistranslations, disproved by etymology and context in the rest of the scriptures.

exactly, agreed.That's why I like the 'Young's Literal Translation' of the Bible as it's unbiased, impartial, and fair.