feeling a bit stressed again!

[Lazarus Short]

Truth seeker, you know, I'm sure, that Jesus said that if you seek you will find, and if you knock, the door will be opened.  I think this is now happening for you.  Let me give a few simple propositions which may help you:

God did not make Hell - Genesis 1:1 - He only made the Heavens and the Earth.

If God didn't, then no one else made Hell - so says John 1:3.  That should be enough proof, but read on.

We know that Death and Hell (the Grave, actually) are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire, so how can anybody be dead and/or in Hell after that?  If Death ends, and the Bible says the last enemy to be overcome is Death, then the Lake of Fire MUST give up its dead, just as the sea did.

We know that God will become All in all at some point in the distant future, so again, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after that?  Hell is excluded!

I have read through the KJV, am now in Matthew, and have yet to find acceptable proof of Hell.

PS, God did not set you on this journey of seeking, only to fail.  He doesn't work that way.  :friendstu: :gimmefive:

[darryl]

Truth seeker, you know, I'm sure, that Jesus said that if you seek you will find, and if you knock, the door will be opened.  I think this is now happening for you.  Let me give a few simple propositions which may help you:

God did not make Hell - Genesis 1:1 - He only made the Heavens and the Earth.

If God didn't, then no one else made Hell - so says John 1:3.  That should be enough proof, but read on.

We know that Death and Hell (the Grave, actually) are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire, so how can anybody be dead and/or in Hell after that?  If Death ends, and the Bible says the last enemy to be overcome is Death, then the Lake of Fire MUST give up its dead, just as the sea did.

We know that God will become All in all at some point in the distant future, so again, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after that?  Hell is excluded!

I have read through the KJV, am now in Matthew, and have yet to find acceptable proof of Hell.

PS, God did not set you on this journey of seeking, only to fail.  He doesn't work that way.  :friendstu: :gimmefive:

good point..the Lake of Fire' is the 'second death'.The Lake of Fire  is the second part of death..

Strong's Concordance number 1208. deuteros ►
deuteros: second
Original Word: δεύτερος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective; Adverb
Transliteration: deuteros
Phonetic Spelling: (dyoo'-ter-os)
Short Definition: second, in the second place, for the second time
Definition: second; with the article: in the second place, for the second time.

Text analysis of Rev 21:8
3041 [e]   limnē   λίμνῃ   lake   N-DFS
3588 [e]   tē   τῇ   -   Art-DFS
2545 [e]   kaiomenē   καιομένῃ   burning   V-PPM/P-DFS
4442 [e]   pyri   πυρὶ   with fire   N-DNS
2532 [e]   kai   καὶ   and   Conj
2303 [e]   theiō   θείῳ,   brimstone,   N-DNS
3739 [e]   ho   ὅ   which   RelPro-NNS
1510 [e]   estin   ἐστιν   is   V-PIA-3S
3588 [e]   ho   ὁ   the   Art-NMS
2288 [e]   thanatos   θάνατος   death   N-NMS
3588 [e]   ho   ὁ   -   Art-NMS
1208 [e]   deuteros   δεύτερος.   second.   Adj-NMS

Text analysis of Rev 21:8. Definition of 'thanotos' (death) in Revelation 21:8: 'thanotos' (death) appears with the article 'ho' therefore the meaning is 'death in 'the second place' or for death for ' the second time'.

the Lake of Fire  is the '2nd death', it is 'death in the second place' or 'the second part of death'...therefore the Lake of Fire  will be abolished.

◄ 1 Corinthians 15:26 ►'The last enemy that shall be abolished is death'.
Text Analysis
Strong's   Transliteration   Greek   English   Morphology
2078 [e]   eschatos   ἔσχατος   [The] last   Adj-NMS
2190 [e]   echthros   ἐχθρὸς   enemy   Adj-NMS
2673 [e]   katargeitai   καταργεῖται   annulled [is]   V-PIM/P-3S
3588 [e]   ho   ὁ   -   Art-NMS
2288 [e]   thanatos   θάνατος·   death.   N-NMS

[Ross]

Amen!!!

1 Tim 6;13-16 " I urge you, in the presence of God WHO GIVES LIFE TO ALL THINGS and Christ Jesus Who witnessed in the time of Pontius Pilate the good confession, to keep the commandment unblemished and above reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, WHICH HE WILL MAKE KNOWN AT THE PROPER TIME.
To the blessed and only sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of Lords, THE ONLY ONE HAVING IMMORTALITY, the One dwelling in unapproachable light, WHOM NO PERSON HAS SEEN OR IS ABLE TO SEE, to Him be the honour and might fro ages. Amen!"

I.M.O no flesh can enter His presence because of the amount of power of being in the spiritual state to which we will be transformed at our appropriate time; His plan for us.
The trouble has arisen among the flesh because that instils fear of having to do enough works so as to be earning that security. The law manipulates our brain by driving home the minutest detail of our mistakes and failures. Purposes, intentions, desires, lusts, all pretty emotional which distracts our ability to think clearly. May get a flash of brilliance then fall away again. Can cause anxiety, depression, suicidal tendency.,
From the flesh we try to come up with answers. Many specialist psychiatrists claim to have elaborate answers. They seem plausible, yet actually resolve nothing.
Then the religions claim some sort of sacrifice is required to appease the god of wrath. These gods demand rituals and instil fear into the heart of their slaves.
We seem to be used to failure, so have a struggle grasping that God does not fail.

Fortunately perfect love casts out all fear.
Christ died all for us to take away a multitude of sins.

1 Cor 15;;25 " For He must reign until He has put everything under His feet."

1 Cor 15;57 " But thanks be to God Who GIVES US THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

[Truth seeker]

Truth seeker, you know, I'm sure, that Jesus said that if you seek you will find, and if you knock, the door will be opened.  I think this is now happening for you.  Let me give a few simple propositions which may help you:

God did not make Hell - Genesis 1:1 - He only made the Heavens and the Earth.

If God didn't, then no one else made Hell - so says John 1:3.  That should be enough proof, but read on.

We know that Death and Hell (the Grave, actually) are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire, so how can anybody be dead and/or in Hell after that?  If Death ends, and the Bible says the last enemy to be overcome is Death, then the Lake of Fire MUST give up its dead, just as the sea did.

We know that God will become All in all at some point in the distant future, so again, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after that?  Hell is excluded!

I have read through the KJV, am now in Matthew, and have yet to find acceptable proof of Hell.

PS, God did not set you on this journey of seeking, only to fail.  He doesn't work that way.  :friendstu: :gimmefive:

thank you for your help!
:iagree: no where in the Bible does it say "and then he created Hell" I have been reading about the history of Hell and Jesus` teaching on it ect which has shed a lot of light on to it. Especially its original roots likely coming from Egypt and yet Moses does not warn of it as well as previously no warning from God to Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the people in the time of the great flood an so on! Its going to take time I think and I know the devil cant read your mind but I dont know if he can put his thoughts into ours to see if he gets a reaction but sometimes I wonder if its him or maybe its just me I do seem to go round this circle of    Doubt-   stronger belief   -worry about that belief - confusion - Doubt
This is why its so important for me to keep on studying, coming from a family with little belief is hard too as I get little support, going to church is no fun because I always get pushed as to why my family is not here so this site and everyone here is my only real escape. In time this I feel will change and it has to some degree.


" God did not set you on this journey of seeking, only to fail" I have to remeber this  :dsunny: :dsunny: :iagree: :HeartThrob:

[Truth seeker]

Amen!!!

1 Tim 6;13-16 " I urge you, in the presence of God WHO GIVES LIFE TO ALL THINGS and Christ Jesus Who witnessed in the time of Pontius Pilate the good confession, to keep the commandment unblemished and above reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, WHICH HE WILL MAKE KNOWN AT THE PROPER TIME.
To the blessed and only sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of Lords, THE ONLY ONE HAVING IMMORTALITY, the One dwelling in unapproachable light, WHOM NO PERSON HAS SEEN OR IS ABLE TO SEE, to Him be the honour and might fro ages. Amen!"

I.M.O no flesh can enter His presence because of the amount of power of being in the spiritual state to which we will be transformed at our appropriate time; His plan for us.
The trouble has arisen among the flesh because that instils fear of having to do enough works so as to be earning that security. The law manipulates our brain by driving home the minutest detail of our mistakes and failures. Purposes, intentions, desires, lusts, all pretty emotional which distracts our ability to think clearly. May get a flash of brilliance then fall away again. Can cause anxiety, depression, suicidal tendency.,
From the flesh we try to come up with answers. Many specialist psychiatrists claim to have elaborate answers. They seem plausible, yet actually resolve nothing.
Then the religions claim some sort of sacrifice is required to appease the god of wrath. These gods demand rituals and instil fear into the heart of their slaves.
We seem to be used to failure, so have a struggle grasping that God does not fail.

Fortunately perfect love casts out all fear.
Christ died all for us to take away a multitude of sins.

1 Cor 15;;25 " For He must reign until He has put everything under His feet."

1 Cor 15;57 " But thanks be to God Who GIVES US THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

Hi Ross  :iagree:
I think at times if not mos times even though salvation is by no works of our own I do feel I get into this rut of legalism, law, prooving myself to him and to others, showing I am a beliver ect I think I tend to spend little if no time in just resting in his grace and so push myself to a mental burn out! I think maybe this is to do with my spiritual side needing to grow and in time I pray it does. :dsunny:

[rosered]

Truth seeker, you know, I'm sure, that Jesus said that if you seek you will find, and if you knock, the door will be opened.  I think this is now happening for you.  Let me give a few simple propositions which may help you:

God did not make Hell - Genesis 1:1 - He only made the Heavens and the Earth.

If God didn't, then no one else made Hell - so says John 1:3.  That should be enough proof, but read on.

We know that Death and Hell (the Grave, actually) are going to be cast into the Lake of Fire, so how can anybody be dead and/or in Hell after that?  If Death ends, and the Bible says the last enemy to be overcome is Death, then the Lake of Fire MUST give up its dead, just as the sea did.

We know that God will become All in all at some point in the distant future, so again, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after that?  Hell is excluded!

I have read through the KJV, am now in Matthew, and have yet to find acceptable proof of Hell.

PS, God did not set you on this journey of seeking, only to fail.  He doesn't work that way.  :friendstu: :gimmefive:

good point..the Lake of Fire' is the 'second death'.The Lake of Fire  is the second part of death..

Strong's Concordance number 1208. deuteros ►
deuteros: second
Original Word: δεύτερος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective; Adverb
Transliteration: deuteros
Phonetic Spelling: (dyoo'-ter-os)
Short Definition: second, in the second place, for the second time
Definition: second; with the article: in the second place, for the second time.

Text analysis of Rev 21:8
3041 [e]   limnē   λίμνῃ   lake   N-DFS
3588 [e]   tē   τῇ   -   Art-DFS
2545 [e]   kaiomenē   καιομένῃ   burning   V-PPM/P-DFS
4442 [e]   pyri   πυρὶ   with fire   N-DNS
2532 [e]   kai   καὶ   and   Conj
2303 [e]   theiō   θείῳ,   brimstone,   N-DNS
3739 [e]   ho   ὅ   which   RelPro-NNS
1510 [e]   estin   ἐστιν   is   V-PIA-3S
3588 [e]   ho   ὁ   the   Art-NMS
2288 [e]   thanatos   θάνατος   death   N-NMS
3588 [e]   ho   ὁ   -   Art-NMS
1208 [e]   deuteros   δεύτερος.   second.   Adj-NMS

Text analysis of Rev 21:8. Definition of 'thanotos' (death) in Revelation 21:8: 'thanotos' (death) appears with the article 'ho' therefore the meaning is 'death in 'the second place' or for death for ' the second time'.

the Lake of Fire  is the '2nd death', it is 'death in the second place'..therefore the Lake of Fire  will be abolished.

◄ 1 Corinthians 15:26 ►'The last enemy that shall be abolished is death'.
Text Analysis
Strong's   Transliteration   Greek   English   Morphology
2078 [e]   eschatos   ἔσχατος   [The] last   Adj-NMS
2190 [e]   echthros   ἐχθρὸς   enemy   Adj-NMS
2673 [e]   katargeitai   καταργεῖται   annulled [is]   V-PIM/P-3S
3588 [e]   ho   ὁ   -   Art-NMS
2288 [e]   thanatos   θάνατος·   death.   N-NMS

  :banana:    :goodpost:

  I   also see   something  in the here and now  [  hear  and now lol :laughing7:] 

  Because we  Hear  His Voice   we will not  follow another    , and His  sheep follow Him   ,   where ever He is  we are  also   ,   when in His presence

   Just like the angels or messengers of the good news of reconciliation    and above , not below  born again and higher  in thoughts having the mind of Christ is having Him  being the head and authority     and obedience   and  have His peace  ,  being seated with Christ in heavenly places and judging righteously    with Him

    What will not harm  you is the sting of death  , being lies in their tails  HAVING POWER over the enemy and your names written in  heaven [book of life] these promises are now   and always ,,,
The furnace of affliction      rev  9     like angry   bees  that swarm   in so much torment they are ready  to torment .

Luke 10   18And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19"Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure harm  you. 20"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."


Lake of fire is  where these are  rising up out of  in  , see the correlation    of satan falling and    this star falling from heaven  to the earth ?   being Apollyon ?

destruction  In the New Testament Book of Revelation, an angel called Abaddon is described as the king of an army of locusts;

his name is first transcribed in Greek (Revelation 9:11—"whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon" (Ἀβαδδὼν)), and then translated ("which in Greek means the Destroyer" (Ἀπολλύων, Apollyon)).

if you look back though the  Bible in places you can  see the angel = messenger of death is   Apollyon !   He first appeared to destroy the children of  Israel without   The   lambs blood on their   doorpost  :eek:    He is the  rider of death on the pale horse Revelation 6:8  the correlation is there in every place you look for the Angel of death and the Destroyer ..    I will destroy you  Isaiah 33 The Lord is Exalted
1Woe to you, O destroyer, While you were not destroyed; And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him. As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed; As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you. 2O LORD, be gracious to us; we have waited for You. Be their strength every morning, Our salvation also in the time of distress.


  Rev  9  Revelation 9New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Fifth Trumpet—the Bottomless Pit
9 Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. 2 He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace;

and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4

They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

Amazing connections throughout HIS WORD  Speaking the same things  and testifying of what   happened  and  is happening and will happen still

To me the seal of God on the forehead is the Holy Spirit   witness and the mind of Christ together as ONE  powerful force against  death

  Two things Jesus come to do on His Cross and finished the works of old  , destroy  death    and   destroy Babylon   in Revealing of Christ we see both as accomplished with Paul  sharing  revelations   and from the beginning to end with the Spirit of truth being   the Spirit  prophecy  / the testimony of Jesus CHRIST ,,,  THE WORD OF GOD IN POWER  , the judgment seat of Christ ....    to free mankind  from the enemies and the last one being death itself



Paul was the little  one or small   Chosen by the Lord Jesus Christ    Himself and   was just a babe  born out of due season     and promised of the WORD OF GOD way  back when , with the silver cup in his   bag   Benjamin  , son of the  right hand  , he was  born  of the Spirit  above on the road to  Damascus

Isaiah 11The Root of Jesse
...7Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.


8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea....
  and promised      to divide the spoils    destroying   the enemy  death as a ravenous wolf  by revelation and Knowledge of God  ,     Psa 68:27   There is little Benjamin with their ruler, the princes of Judah and their council, the princes of Zebulun, and the princes of Naphtali.

   benjamins  silver cup Genesis 44:12
Then the steward proceeded to search, beginning with the oldest and ending with the youngest. And the cup was found in Benjamin's sack.
 
      All this is Gods work   from the beginning to the end and promises  to bring in to remembrance every Word he  spoke   to us  and give us the heads up  on what is going on by the Spirit of prophecy and the  very testimony of Jesus Christ   dwelling in us,    our bosom / heart    that secret place  by   faith , hope and love

[marie glen]

the Lake of Fire  is the '2nd death', it is 'death in the second place'..therefore the Lake of Fire  will be abolished.

◄ 1 Corinthians 15:26 ►'The last enemy that shall be abolished is death'.

VeRy :goodpost: :goodpost:

1 Cor 15;;25 " For He must reign until He has put everything under His feet."

   :dsunny: :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

I think at times if not mos times even though salvation is by no works of our own I do feel I get into this rut of legalism, law, prooving myself to him and to others, showing I am a beliver ect I think I tend to spend little if no time in just resting in his grace and so push myself to a mental burn out! I think maybe this is to do with my spiritual side needing to grow and in time I pray it does. :dsunny:

no where in the Bible does it say "and then he created Hell" I have been reading about the history of Hell and Jesus` teaching on it ect which has shed a lot of light on to it. Especially its original roots likely coming from Egypt and yet Moses does not warn of it as well as previously no warning from God to Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the people in the time of the great flood an so on! Its going to take time I think and I know the devil cant read your mind but I dont know if he can put his thoughts into ours to see if he gets a reaction but sometimes I wonder if its him or maybe its just me I do seem to go round this circle of    Doubt-   stronger belief   -worry about that belief - confusion - Doubt
This is why its so important for me to keep on studying, coming from a family with little belief is hard too as I get little support, going to church is no fun because I always get pushed as to why my family is not here so this site and everyone here is my only real escape. In time this I feel will change and it has to some degree.

" God did not set you on this journey of seeking, only to fail" I have to remeber this

Bless you! I think you summed up the struggle so many have, perfectly!!

1 Cor 15;;25 " For He must reign until He has put everything under His feet."

[Ross]

G'day Truth seeker
" I think at times if not most times even though salvation is by no works of our own I do feel I get into this rut of legalism, law, proving myself to him and to others, showing I am a believer act I think I tend to spend little if no time in just resting in his grace and so push myself to a mental burn out! I think maybe this is to do with my spiritual side needing to grow and in time I pray it does. "

Indeed a part of learning. When we learn in the flesh we make mistakes, and learn from those mistakes. We do not learn everything in one lesson. Amazingly we try to learn everything in one spiritual lesson yet the spiritual life to come exceeds our current ability level.

Peace, for me, is KNOWING NOW that Christ covers everything. Does not make me give up, rather changes the outlook to a positive question, 'What can I learn from this situation. How would He handle things, just like a kid watches adults for what to do.

I like Ephesians 5;1,2 " Therefore be imitators of God as His dear children, and live in love just as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us."

[darryl]

the Lake of Fire  is the '2nd death', it is 'death in the second place'..therefore the Lake of Fire  will be abolished.

◄ 1 Corinthians 15:26 ►'The last enemy that shall be abolished is death'.

VeRy :goodpost: :goodpost:

tky !...btw, in the Greek 'the second (deuteros) death'  can also read ' the second part of death'...so, the L of F is death the 2nd part and is flagged for abolishment !..praise Jesus ! 

[Truth seeker]

thank you all again for your posts! sorry I have not been on the forum last couple of days, I get into reading articles and have to finish them :laugh:

I dont think I do myself any favours you know sometimes. I read a blog or article on why universalism cant be true and hell is. I think I do it so I open my mind to it all and then I can freely choose knowing the truth. At 36 I feel I have a mountain to learn on but with everyones help im getting there. my latest issue is 2 thessalonians 1:7-10 but then there are many like this I need to study on. How something can be Eternally destroyed is beyond me! if something is destroyed how can it go on being punished?
I was reading an article on the % that would go to heaven based on typical christian beliefs. From our population of 7 billion about 95% will go to hell if we based it on typical beliefs.  How is Jesus the saviour of the world then? some argue that because we have to choose but isnt that works? and then they say no becasue he God pulls you to him so you can choose but if this is so why spread the word? and I agree we must try to spread the word but if this is the only way people will be saved by believing what others have said then Gods plan is totally reliant on man and look how well thats turned out :eek: based on this doctrine I can only see Jesus as the potential saviour of the world or saviour of the belivers. Obviously this is not what I believe but I stay away from conflict as I dont know enough to answer all the cannon fodder I would get back. As I see correct me as my view has changed here a little since I started on here! the reason we talk about Jesus and the good news is so people can be saved from the punishment of sin which will be in laymans terms a period of time long enough to bring those who refuse to believe to know the truth? appoloiges if I have gone a little of topic.

[rosered]

  Hi truthseeker ,

      Have you wondered why Jesus Christ was sent  when he was ?   

  This helped me alot  after it made sense  into answering the question as to why those did not have this  hope in them ...
  It helps to look for yourself   in the WORD ..
God bless you  bro  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

...the reason we talk about Jesus and the good news is so people can be saved from the punishment of sin which will be in laymans terms a period of time long enough to bring those who refuse to believe to know the truth? appoloiges if I have gone a little of topic.

That's the thing.. I think, that until we have all the pieces fit together, by His Holy Spirit, via the Word, we will have an incomplete picture and some amount of confusion.

What those who oppose ultimate universal redemption/reconciliation(/repentance) usually think UR is a "everyone dies and goes to heaven" doctrine.

Of course the idea that each one dies and goes either to heaven or to 'hell' strongly suggests reward and/or punishment before trial and sentencing. I don't see how this is biblically supported (at all) and also think of it as highly illogical.

I like your conclusions about the 95%, etc. Jesus as savior of the world, or merely potential savior of the world. :thumbsup:

And I think in such a case Jesus would have been more honest had He said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw some to me" Instead of "all to me" - Jn 12:32

If we prayerfully think about what is called "Judgment Day" (the Great White Throne Judgment" - Rev 20:5a;7a;11-14; and verse 15, I believe refers to the very end of Judgment Day.

Which I believe Judgment 'Day' will last about 500 years (which to me proves, ur but I can't get anyone to hear me)

this (link) is an image, which the Spirit of God was finally able to get through to my rather dense brain, summing up this thought - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html

(note to self, circle the "500 years" on the image)

So... to my way of thinking (whether 500 years, or other duration) surely Judgment Day must be a rather long day.. It does not seem logical, whatsoever, to me that Yahweh, who is Love (Light, Life, and Perfection) is just going to wake up all of the dead "great and small" and simply toss them into the lake of fire.. Even if that lake is the fire of God's love and the burning of humiliation - I still can't see it happening that way. God.. surely.. is a reasoning God.. We're made in His image... with good reasoning ability..

I read the other day, someone translated the "Word"/"Logos" as Logic - the word/logos/logic

And my spirit said "Yes!!" (I mean, really, how logical is a 'hell'?? :doh: :laughing7: I'm sorry. It's just not possible.)

.."fire and brimstone" I think is man's own fiddling with the atom.. (ultimately)

He walked through the fire with each one of us ("look, king there is four men walking around in the fire.." Daniel 3?) And I believe He will walk through the fire with each one of the 95%.

Doesn't it seem logical that "Judgment Day" would be a great day of review? Is God wasteful?? I don't think so.

..Like Sheila was saying, I believe.. be a hermit with God.. we walk and talk with Him.. it's one on one.. shut the doors about thee.. enter thy prayer closet.. the throne room of grace..

And think of all that 95%.. great and small.. they "died in their sins" so they rose in their sins.. (ET folks don't realize it's not a case of "everybody goes to heaven when they die" that is UR belief.)

..when i was pondering these things, I couldn't help but think.. who?.. by time they get to verse 15 of Revelation 20, to the end of judgment day, when "all not believing will go to the 2nd death/dying".. who, by then isn't going to "believe"?

Who, after being resurrected, awakened from their grave, and witnessed and lived through what surely will be a long day of review of all heaven and earth's history.. who after all that, isn't going to "believe".

Since God is the one who does the choosing (by shake of his cosmic dice?) those who would be the elect/have faith now and who would not, why would their redemption experience be any more drastic than my own?

If death is death, why does there have to be a 2nd death? because He resurrected everybody. :laughing7: :dontknow: u.r. logic, why? did he raise everyone? oh I forgot. so he could burn them alive forever.

[notice how "the devil and his angels" thrown into the lake are the only ones it specifically says "they shall be tormented day and night for a duration". The beast and false prophet who were thrown there at Jesus' return (ch 19) are not persons, but institutions(beliefs) of man active at the time of Jesus' arrival (imo:) aka, thus far, no persons in the lake of fire. (imo)]

I wish by now I knew the New Testament like the back of my hand.. (what have I been doing all these years? :faint: )

[rosered]

  Great post MARIE !! :thumbsup: LOVE THIS !!

  But I see this  or dont see  rightly  yet !!    But   KNOW    all things are possible with God ..   

I have thought   that warring  between the ears  , our minds , the carnal mind of a beast  and   kings of the earth  and the Mind of Christ obedient to the will of  the Father only    when  both Are  warring  to rule   the same body !!

   Discerning the BODY OF CHRIST   is the believers  where ever they are are at  are serving  God .
  One way or the other they DO SERVE  GOD     and all things serve God even satan in that sense .

    Here we have    a psalm of David saying His  angels  or messengers   spirits/winds  and ministers   a    flame of fire .

  WELL ALL SERVE  HIM right ?    in the earth as it is in heaven      even the evil has purpose     in the  old world   of heaven and earth to  learn righteousness

teaching us to discern  spirits and   what is right in the sight of God .

  Hebrews 1 ...6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."


7And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."


8But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

  What of these winds   that blow and flames  that  kindle   FIRE ?

  The carnal mind cannot   understand it and the Mind of Christ knows exactly what  its purpose is .

  So we have to look   within ourselves to see what it means according to the scriptures and have the Holy Spirit interpret it  for us .

The  tongue is an unruly little member that  only the Lord can tame the tongue  .


James 3:5-12New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.

See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!



6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by    hell / gehenna


7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. [/b



]8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.


9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;


10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.


My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.



11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water?


12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.


Lets me know the messenger of satan /adversary      and those blowing the winds of doctrines and theaching of men  are those that  preach and teach     Gehenna  fire are in that torment themselves !!! 

  those that judge the law

James 4 Drawing Near to God
...10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.



11Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law;


but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.


12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

but who are you who judge your neighbor?

I can see this    as    turning one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so in the day of the Lord his spirit will be saved     

   wow ,  as they judge so shall they be judged and see this as more of a now thing   than to come   , every one will   be humbled     by the LORD   

  He is in Power     and is reigning now  at the right hand of the   FATHER ..  This is my thoughts on these things as of now .

[Truth seeker]

...the reason we talk about Jesus and the good news is so people can be saved from the punishment of sin which will be in laymans terms a period of time long enough to bring those who refuse to believe to know the truth? appoloiges if I have gone a little of topic.

That's the thing.. I think, that until we have all the pieces fit together, by His Holy Spirit, via the Word, we will have an incomplete picture and some amount of confusion.

What those who oppose ultimate universal redemption/reconciliation(/repentance) usually think UR is a "everyone dies and goes to heaven" doctrine.

Of course the idea that each one dies and goes either to heaven or to 'hell' strongly suggests reward and/or punishment before trial and sentencing. I don't see how this is biblically supported (at all) and also think of it as highly illogical.

I like your conclusions about the 95%, etc. Jesus as savior of the world, or merely potential savior of the world. :thumbsup:

And I think in such a case Jesus would have been more honest had He said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw some to me" Instead of "all to me" - Jn 12:32

If we prayerfully think about what is called "Judgment Day" (the Great White Throne Judgment" - Rev 20:5a;7a;11-14; and verse 15, I believe refers to the very end of Judgment Day.

Which I believe Judgment 'Day' will last about 500 years (which to me proves, ur but I can't get anyone to hear me)

this (link) is an image, which the Spirit of God was finally able to get through to my rather dense brain, summing up this thought - http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html

(note to self, circle the "500 years" on the image)

So... to my way of thinking (whether 500 years, or other duration) surely Judgment Day must be a rather long day.. It does not seem logical, whatsoever, to me that Yahweh, who is Love (Light, Life, and Perfection) is just going to wake up all of the dead "great and small" and simply toss them into the lake of fire.. Even if that lake is the fire of God's love and the burning of humiliation - I still can't see it happening that way. God.. surely.. is a reasoning God.. We're made in His image... with good reasoning ability..

I read the other day, someone translated the "Word"/"Logos" as Logic - the word/logos/logic

And my spirit said "Yes!!" (I mean, really, how logical is a 'hell'?? :doh: :laughing7: I'm sorry. It's just not possible.)

.."fire and brimstone" I think is man's own fiddling with the atom.. (ultimately)

He walked through the fire with each one of us ("look, king there is four men walking around in the fire.." Daniel 3?) And I believe He will walk through the fire with each one of the 95%.

Doesn't it seem logical that "Judgment Day" would be a great day of review? Is God wasteful?? I don't think so.

..Like Sheila was saying, I believe.. be a hermit with God.. we walk and talk with Him.. it's one on one.. shut the doors about thee.. enter thy prayer closet.. the throne room of grace..

And think of all that 95%.. great and small.. they "died in their sins" so they rose in their sins.. (ET folks don't realize it's not a case of "everybody goes to heaven when they die" that is UR belief.)

..when i was pondering these things, I couldn't help but think.. who?.. by time they get to verse 15 of Revelation 20, to the end of judgment day, when "all not believing will go to the 2nd death/dying".. who, by then isn't going to "believe"?

Who, after being resurrected, awakened from their grave, and witnessed and lived through what surely will be a long day of review of all heaven and earth's history.. who after all that, isn't going to "believe".

Since God is the one who does the choosing (by shake of his cosmic dice?) those who would be the elect/have faith now and who would not, why would their redemption experience be any more drastic than my own?

If death is death, why does there have to be a 2nd death? because He resurrected everybody. :laughing7: :dontknow: u.r. logic, why? did he raise everyone? oh I forgot. so he could burn them alive forever.

[notice how "the devil and his angels" thrown into the lake are the only ones it specifically says "they shall be tormented day and night for a duration". The beast and false prophet who were thrown there at Jesus' return (ch 19) are not persons, but institutions(beliefs) of man active at the time of Jesus' arrival (imo:) aka, thus far, no persons in the lake of fire. (imo)]

I wish by now I knew the New Testament like the back of my hand.. (what have I been doing all these years? :faint: )

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: learning so much right now thank you. I will take a look at the link you gave. Currently I have just started reading "hope beyond hell" not far into it but going well so far. Quite a bit can go over my head sometimes in all my new learning so I will need to keep going over my studies lol its sinking in slowly hahaha.

[Caffus]

Those people who are saying Lord Lord did we not do this and that in your name, are believing that they did something that should get them into Heaven. They have not yet been humbled enough to accept that there is nothing they can do to deserve it. They must accept the gift of Christ's sacrifice is the only way they will be justified and made righteous. That's what I believe those verses mean. :HeartThrob:

[Caffus]

I know it's hard...I just posted 112 scripture verses that support UR and was told they are ALL "twisted" and "taken out of context". The verses are plain and need no explaining "twisting" so none was given. But Ive heard ET believers give whole sermons to try and explain away many of those verses. Also, have you heard them use   Isaiah 55:8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways" They use that verse to support eternal torment..as we cant understand it because his ways are not like ours. But do they read the chapter Isaiah 55 is all about Gods mercy, love and generosity. So if a verse is out of context that one sure is when its used to support ET. But....I know I cant change anyones mind on my own no matter what I do or say. Jesus is Lord of all and He opens eyes as He chooses...which as time goes on is becoming more clear to me. My words do nothing good unless He's behind them.

[marie glen]

...ah, yes.. but it iS a tiny bit frustrating once in a while Caffus, isn't it? I totally hate untruth mixed in with his truth! And the gospel.. Then it's time for me to take a deep breath and in patience possess my soul..

This world is covered with untruth like a wet quilt hanging low in the atmosphere.. But praise the Lord! Truth will be what stands in the 'end' and all untruth can only fall. :banana:

Oh! and I so totally hate things which are not logical!! Oiye Ve!

[marie glen]

   bless you truth seeker! :smile:

[Caffus]

Yes...it is when the untruth is so obvious to me and my beliefs are being called lies from the devil. Im accused of twisting scripture and editing it ect. It can be painful and it is difficult not to become angry.  I have to humble myself sometimes and just take there criticisms and pray for them instead of trying to argue. It's been a almost a year now, since I've believed in UR and even though Ive been persecuted Im still very grateful for this Truth.  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: me too! Very grateful to know the UR good news/truth! :smile:

[darryl]

Yes...it is when the untruth is so obvious to me and my beliefs are being called lies from the devil. Im accused of twisting scripture and editing it ect. It can be painful and it is difficult not to become angry.  I have to humble myself sometimes and just take there criticisms and pray for them instead of trying to argue. It's been a almost a year now, since I've believed in UR and even though Ive been persecuted Im still very grateful for this Truth.  :dsunny:

:iagree: :dsunny:

[darryl]

:thumbsup: me too! Very grateful to know the UR good news/truth! :smile:

me too !..same. :banana: :banana: :banana: :thumbsup: :dsunny: :iagree:

[Cardinal]

Yes...it is when the untruth is so obvious to me and my beliefs are being called lies from the devil. Im accused of twisting scripture and editing it ect. It can be painful and it is difficult not to become angry.  I have to humble myself sometimes and just take there criticisms and pray for them instead of trying to argue. It's been a almost a year now, since I've believed in UR and even though Ive been persecuted Im still very grateful for this Truth.  :dsunny:

:cloud9: Have you ever come across truth that didn't fit the "norm" and NOT been accused of twisting scripture? I know I haven't. It's become so commonplace it can almost be used as a confirmation that I'm onto something.  :icon_jokercolor: :winkgrin:

[rosered]

Yes...it is when the untruth is so obvious to me and my beliefs are being called lies from the devil. Im accused of twisting scripture and editing it ect. It can be painful and it is difficult not to become angry.  I have to humble myself sometimes and just take there criticisms and pray for them instead of trying to argue. It's been a almost a year now, since I've believed in UR and even though Ive been persecuted Im still very grateful for this Truth.  :dsunny:

  They done the same to Jesus brother ,  take heart

   You are bearing   the same sufferings of Christ , that is   taking up  your  cross

You are sharing the Word of Life   and I call those  Spirit crushers  or spirit   quenchers  .

  Their minds are so defiled [unclean and  hateful]  they call everything evil   and of satan .

These are them whom refuse to allow anyone   to enter the Kingdom  of God  and  so stubborn they wont come to the knowledge of truth / Jesus Christ to be healed ..    Eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand    what the Spirit is saying

These are the ones whom   are wise in their own eyes , Jesus said  , because you say you SEE ,  your sins remain ..
  They   are dead  in their sins / shame   and get to be last because they    THINK   that   they are first .

  Pride of life  keeps anyone   bound     and  everyone  needing Jesus and keeping that faith  alive  , faith comes by hearing ..

  You are a sower of the seed / Word of Christ     , just sow and go  , God does   the   rest , increase    :HeartThrob:

[Caffus]

 :friendstu: :Pray: