Mark 10:30 - reality check for preachers of man's infinity soul

[greg]

...I do appreciate the opportunity to lay out in detail some of the verses that deal with annihilationism, because we more frequently discuss eternal torment in our discussions...
...

I would be happy to continue this word study – I will read to you from the actual ancient codex of Yahsua's words in Aramaic, the language of Israel in the first century.   If you wish, please feel free to present your top three verses (Yahshua's words only please) where you find that your translation supports your premise that 'all men are saved for infinite time', and I will respond by citing the actual text of the gospel including its full context in the chapter, and I will use bold font to highlight any limiting context.

If you are willing to accept that the word "any/all" is the same word in both Hebrew and Aramaic, and that it only takes meaning in context, then this should help our word study by testing any assumptions that it refers to "all men throughout infinite time and space":

• Mark 6:39, "And he commanded them to seat klnSh on the grass."  Is Yahshua commanding the apostles to gather all men throughout infinite time and space and make them sit down on the grass that day in Galilee? 


• Mark 13:13, "And you will be hated by klnSh because of my name, but whoever will endure until the end will be saved."   Is Yahshua instructing the apostles that all men throughout infinite time and space will hate them, and that whoever will endure to the end will be saved, and by "whoever" he means all men throughout infinite time and space, and by "end" he actually means "no end" because time is infinite?

By the way, another cool thing about kl meaning "all/any" is that it embodies humility because men do not promise more than they can deliver.  It embodies the premise that we cannot make one hair on our heads change color without God.  So for example, if you instruct your worker to gather klmdm ("all/any whatever") apples in your orchard, then your worker just needs to gather "any" that he can to the best of his ability.  He does not need to gather "all".   If you want him to literally gather them all, every single one, then you would need to say that explicitly in Hebrew/Aramaic with the proper context, such as knuSh klhyn ula Khd nShThbq ("gather them all and not one shall be left").  You can see this in the bible explicitly in several examples, such as:

• John 1:3, kl baydh hua ublEaduhy apla Khda huTh mdm dhua ("All in His hands existed, and without him not even one existed whatever of existence").  Notice how the second part of this verse puts the first in context to fix the meaning of kl as "all" rather than "any". 
• Matthew 5:18, amyn gyr am rana lkun dEadma dnEabrun Shmya uarEa yud Khda au Khd srta la nEabr mn nmusa Eadma dkl nhua ("Believe.  For I say to you that until that will cross over heaven and earth, one yod and one stroke not will cross over from the law until that all/any will be.")  See also Matthew 5:20 for the concluding context of this verse ("I say to you that if not exceeds your righteousness greater than the scribes and the Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.")
• Psalm 14:3, hkl sr yKhdu nalKhu ayn EaShh tub ayn gm aKhd ("All have gone astray together and they have become filthy; there is none who does good; not even one."
• Psalm 34:20, Shmr kl EaTsmuThyu aKhTh mhnh la nShbrh ("He keeps all his bones.  Not one of them is broken.")  See also John 19:36.
• Psalm 53:3, klu sg yKhdu nalKhu ayn EaShh tub ayn gm aKhd ("All of them is gone back. They are altogether become filthy. None does good.  No, not one."
• Isaiah 40:26, Shau mrum Eaynykm urau my bra alh hmuTsya bmspr Tsbam lklm bShm yqra mra mrb aunym uamyTs kKh aySh la nEadr  ("Lift up on high your eyes and behold who has created these that brings out by number their host, to all of them by name he calls, of the greatness of his might for that strong of his power. Not one was missing."
• Mark 13:2, "Do you see these great buildings? Not will be left here a stone upon a stone that not will be torn down."
• Incidentally, from a language standpoint, Romans 3:12 also makes this point.

Looking at all these examples, you will begin to appreciate not only the importance of context to either make or limit absolute statements, and also (key point) the importance of the 'negative affirmation' when claiming absolutes.  In other words. to claim an absolute, it is not really enough to say in Israel that "all/any" of something should occur.  To claim an absolute in Hebrew and Aramaic, it is proper to also add the negative affirmation, "that not one" apple shall be left on the ground, "that not one" soul shall be destroyed, etc.

Without an absolute statement, the matter remains in a state of probability.  And in God anything is possible, including the complete destruction of the wicked.  Shall destruction not be possible with God?  If so, where does the text say that?

I hope this response assists your word study.

...
On this thread there is a lot of translation and interpretation of Hebrew words used in the gospels.  It is my understanding that most agree that the gospels and letters were either written in Greek, or that the earliest  manuscripts we have available are all in Greek. If this is in fact true, then my question is how do we know what Hebrew words were used?  I am not questioning that the words that have been presented are not being interpreted correctly, I'm just wondering the source of Hebrew words used in the gospels. 
Don't think that I am being flippant, if there are Hebrew manuscripts that are more aged than the Greek, and not just Hebrew translations of the Greek, I would like to be able to study them also.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,
Pat
...

Thank you for your question.  I'll respond to your question and also the moderator's comment as he wrote, "It is debatable whether most of the gospels were spoken or written in koine greek or hebrew aramaic.... There is no way to get the meaning of Sheol from Hades(Greek) or Inferno(latin). One has to go back and look at Sheol to understand what Jesus and the apostles are saying whenever they use that word."

My response here is for purpose of word study, not debate or textual criticism...

Yahshua the Messiah and His apostles spoke Aramaic, the language of the people in 1st Century Israel.  Modern scholars often refer to this language as Syriac.  Aramaic & Syriac are the exact same language, just with different names, so... Aramaic = Syriac.  To analogize, English = British.

There is an Aramaic-speaking church on earth today that is actually as old as the Catholic church (indeed, this Aramaic-speaking church (called the Church of the East) is so ancient that scholars don't know which is older, The Church of the East or the Catholic Church).  What we do know is that this Aramaic-speaking church has always been separate from the Catholic Church, both physically (it is located in ancient Israel, Syria, Lebanon, etc) and it also has its own scribes that have preserved its own Aramaic text of the gospel independent of the Greek. 

There are countless Greek manuscripts at the Vatican that differ in countless ways.  But there is only one Aramaic corpus text in the Church of the East.   That text is called the Peshytta, and it does not differ in any way from codex to codex, save for a handful of extremely minor scribal errors here and there.

The Aramaic-speaking church acknowledges 100% that Yahshua is the Messiah, and it has the same canon as the Catholic and Protestant Churches (though the Catholic & Protestant differ a little).  The Aramaic-speaking church maintains through ancient writings that it received the original gospel in the Aramaic language directly from the apostles themselves!  I know that may sound incredible, but that is their tradition, and I am not one to challenge their ancient texts.  Indeed, countless scholars have actually come to accept that the gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, such that the Aramaic gospel of Matthew is the best evidence of Yahshua's spoken words.  This is because of what scholars call polysemy -- when multiple Greek texts have different translations that all come from the same Aramaic word.

Here is an example of polysemy generally... suppose that three men in China are translating a book. Each translator writes his own Chinese translation:

• Translator 1: "Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying blemish."
• Translator 2: "Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying small burrowing animal."
• Translator 3: "Mary paid a lot of money to get rid of that annoying spy."

We can easily ascertain that the original language of that document was English, because the word "mole" in English matches all three Chinese translation discrepancies. 

This is what scholars have found with Aramaic and Greek.  Multiple Greek translations have discrepancies, but they all trace back to a single Aramaic word.   The Greek scholar David Bauscher has provided many of the findings in this area:

But, before I provide examples, please note again that this is not a textual criticism, but a textual study in the language spoken by the Messiah and His apostles.  The Catholic Church censored this research over the centuries for an obvious reason, but I expect the Tentmaker moderators will be kinder.  I will just provide a few examples so you can see what this word study involves if you are interested in further independent study...

Regarding Matthew 27:4, "zkya – "Zakaia" can mean "victorious", "innocent" or "just"; the Majority Greek text has "alpha-theta-omega-omicron-nu" – "innocent" and the Critical Greek has "delta-iota-kappa-alpha0iota-omicron-nu" – "righteous". The Peshytta reading can explain the Greek readings.

In Matthew 11:19, The Greek has two readings: The Majority of mss. have "works" and the Critical Text (2 mss.) have children".  In Aramaic, Eabdyh can mean either "works" or "servant".  The Greek word "Teknon" ("Child") can refer to a disciple or pupil as well.... Since the Aramaic Eabdyh can mean servant, a Greek translator may easily use a Greek synonym such as "teknon" to translate it.  Codices Alep and B have "ergown" – "works", which also can be the meaning ofEabdyh. The Peshytta can explain the origin of both Greek readings and why two readings exist.

Regarding Matthew 14:12, Grek mss. B0-Vaticanus (4th Cent.) and [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0[/font] (4th cent.) have pi-tau-omega-mu-alpha – "corpse" and the Majority text has sigma-omega-mu-alpha – "body".  Either one Greek translator mistook  "Shlada" for "Pagra", or we have a case of split meanings of an Aramaic word, "Shlada" being translated "Corpse" by one Greek translator and "Body" by another. It can have either meaning in Aramaic. Mark 15:45 has the same word split phenomenon in the Greek texts with Aramaic word Pagra. The Critical text of Westcott and Hort has pi-tau-omega-mu-alpha – "corpse" and the Majority text has sigma-omega-mu-alpha – "body", as in this verse.

Revelation 14:20:"Greek mss. have "a thousand, six hundred stadia"; the Greek ms. Aleph (a, 4th cent.) has   - "a thousand two hundred", as does the Philoxenian Syriac Version (early 6th cent.)... If the Aramaic is the original, how did most Greek mss. get 600 instead of 200? Ah, but the Aramaic wmaThyn is 600 and 200! How? The Aramaic language uses letters for numbers as well as words.  wmaThyn can mean "and two hundred" (which it most likely does) or it can be interpreted as "(hundreds) maThyn (six) w since w – (waw) is also used for the number six.  The Greek interpretation may have been influenced by the Hebrew form for "hundreds" – mawTh; The correct Aramaic form would be maa.  The more accurate use of this method would actually give – "xix –two hundreds" which is exactly what the Sinaiticus has! (Greek does not have a six –two hundreds).  So the 4th Century Greek Sinaiticus bears witness to the Aramaic text of Revelation (The only Greek ms. With 1200 stadia in this place) as does The Majority Greek Text with its subtle but sloppy use of Gematria to obtain 1600 stadia."

Revelation 13:1: "The majority and Critical Greek has "names" – νματα.  The Aramaic Shma is singular.  Whoever penned the original Crawford Aramaic text was highly expert in the language; if he was translating from Greek, he would have known easily the difference between the singular Greek νμα and the plural νματα; only 3 old Greek mss. & the Textus Receptus Greek mss. Have the singular νμα "name". The fact that the Crawford has Shma ("name") mitigates strongly against a Greek original behind it; if it were a translation of Greek, it would have Shmha ("names") or Shmhyn ("names"), as does the Harklean Syriac version – (Shmha), unless one would argue the Crawford was translated from the Textus Receptus Greek text, since it agrees with that text alone in two readings in this verse: "I stood" and "names".  But that would be difficult to maintain since the TR disagrees with the Crawford in quite a few major readings in Revelation. Even in this verse, the word order of the two texts differs for "ten horns and seven heads"."

The bottom line is that it's evidence, so it adds up.  But if the Father wanted Aramaic primacy to be self-evident anywhere, it would be.  For example, the first words of Revelation would be "This book was originally written in Aramaic by Yahshua's apostle John".  And for that matter, the Torah would be written in unblemished Hebrew right in the big blue sky for all to obey.  But no, that's not our world.  Our world is one of perspective and lost history because it is what helps us grow, and what we deserve.

[jabcat]

I dont think a discussion like this needs to be in a members only room. We here at tentmaker are boldly proclaiming the salvation of all.

I will probably offend somebody by this(but I dont mean to)-I am not here to entertain the possibility of annihilation. I know better. The scriptures do not affirm that theory. The scriptures clearly teach the ultimate reconciliation of all.

And while we cant debate anyone into changing their mind, that is not my reason for maintaining a discussion like this. The only reason to allow a conversation from someone who is promoting annihilation is to, in conversational tone but clear words, refute it. As long as that person appears open and reasonable in discussion it can continue, but I have no intention of making space for someone to teach on this site 1)annihilation or 2) a conditional salvation that can end in annihilation at any point in the ages to come.

I think we have always maintained that this is not a "debate all subjects" site, it is a site for the promotion of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ- the Good News of the salvation of all. But I do appreciate the opportunity to lay out in detail some of the verses that deal with annihilationism, because we more frequently discuss eternal torment in our discussions, but annihilationism, tho not as twisted as ET, is just as incorrect.

At least thats how I see it :)

I agree.  I'm watching this thread, and as long as respectful discussion is the means of presenting information, as well as in the spirit of "I believe", "as I understand" etc., then it can continue for awhile.  But if it just crosses into debating, arguing, including with any personal insulting, etc., that's just not what we're here for, and the thread will be locked as the mods have discussed.  Also at some point if it's much more apparent than it already is, that everyone's just locked into their position and things just begin to fruitlessly loop (ha, I didn't mean to do that.  Fruit loops, get it?  :laugh:) )  then that's another reason that we'll just need to move on to other things.   :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

Well, again Greg, you are majoring on the minors.

I have listed a lot of scripture that says God saves all in plain terms, and you have yet to address that body of scripture. But just to humor you about "all" :o)

If I say "all the figs in the basket", then the basket becomes a subset of all figs.

If i say "all figs grow on trees", then there is no subset. Each and every figs that ever was came off a tree.


In Colossians 1:15-20 the context is pretty clear.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

There clearly is, as I am sure you would agree, no subset to "all" in these verses- without looking at pas(gr) we can clearly see and know, Jesus created "all".


17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Here also, clearly, as creator and sustainer, as it says in hebrews 1, "all things hold together by the word of His power"- and there is no subset to "all".


18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in "everything"( same word in Gr, pas- "all")).

Here and now, in this world age, we do have a subset, He is "head over all things to the church"(Eph 1), but He will become head over "all"- no subset - "For he must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet"(1 Cor 15). As it is written in Eph 4, "he who descended is he who also ascended that He might fill all things". And as it is written in Eph 1, ....."the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things on earth"


19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile "all things"(pas) to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

So Paul sets the context for all here. No subset. All he created, All he is before, All he is over, All He holds together, All in heaven and earth- reconciled by the blood of His cross.

"through Him I say"- as re-emphasis and further definition, things in heaven or earth- as all these other verses also assert.

This is the much more reasonable and understandable, "God of children", who disciplines them for their correction, and an eventual return to their Father. This wisdom will not frighten a little child, it will meet there sense of justice, because it is just- and true- and good. Mercy triumphs over judgment in the end, as it should.

The purpose of God indwelling the Messiah was to fill all things. "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things"  Rom 11:36 is not just a doxology. It is a macro-view of the plans and purpose, the wisdom and counsel of God, which is re-iterated in Eph 1;9-11; Col 1:15-20; 1 Cor 15:18-23 and a half dozen other scriptures not the  least of which is this.....

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

This language is so prohibitively consistent that it overwhelmingly means "all" without reserve, including every former adversary, even as we were once adversaries. Jesus must reign over all so that God may become all in all.

Jesus must ascend over all so that he may fill all things.

For so it pleased the father to make all the fulness dwell in him so that he might reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross, I say whether things in heaven or on earth.


It makes no sense that God will be all over some.

Jesus has not ascended over all that he may fill "some things".

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

it is not the summing up of "some things".

This kind intention(eph 1), "For so it pleased the Father" (col 1), is to gather all things together in one in Christ(eph 1) for the purpose of the "reconciliation of all"(col 1), not the destruction of many- reconciling all things whether in heaven or earth, not "some".

In Phil 2 we see again that His being lifted up from the earth will result in all men being drawn unto Him, for "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth".

So that God may be all in all.... that is the goal of all God's wisdom from before the creation of the world, when he envisioned the Lamb slain as the core of the creative act- AND THE REASON FOR IT................ a redeemed renewed restored creation in deeper love for the redemptive act, having walked on the dark side and all now as one fully appreciating the light.

[greg]

Well, again Greg, you are majoring on the minors.

I have listed a lot of scripture that says God saves all in plain terms, and you have yet to address that body of scripture. But just to humor you about "all" :o)

...

Respectfully, I was actually suggesting for purposes of this word study, "If you wish, please feel free to present your top three verses (Yahshua's words only please) where you find that your translation supports your premise that 'all men are saved for infinite time'..." 

I actually didn't see any of Yahshua's words in your response. Matthew 23:8, "But you shall not be called rabbi, for One is your rabbi, but you are all brothers."

To help get back on the topic of this thread, we were discussing Mark 10:30.  This thread is not about annihilation directly, but rather it is about the specific time and specific place of Yahshua's promise to the saved.  What did Yahshua say specifically?  In Mark 10:30, the definite article is used in both the Greek and the Aramaic.  That grammar is the reality check for preacher's of man's infinite soul...

In other words, how can the definite article be utilized if Yahshua is referring to infinity?  The definite article is utilized consistently 100% in the gospel to refer to a finite world/age.  That is why preachers of man's infinity soul are required to ignore the literal grammar, and simply rely on their own non-literal translations.  But for someone like me who reads the actual text in Aramaic and Greek, I can see plainly that the non-literal preachers have a problem here.  Mark 10:30 is the elephant in the room for non-literalists.

[jabcat]

John, if you're discussing with someone who dismisses the bulk of the NT, to the exclusion of all but the "red letters", then IMO this quickly becomes an exercise in futility. 

[greg]

John, if you're discussing with someone who dismisses the bulk of the NT, to the exclusion of all but the "red letters", then IMO this quickly becomes an exercise in futility.

Dismiss, no.  Focus for purpose of word study, yes.

Focusing on Yahshua's words is not futile, moderator.  His words have life.

[Patinak]

Greg,

Thanks for taking the time to give such a thorough response to my question.  I do appreciate it.

Because I am of what would be called of preterist leaning, a lot of what you have presented fits well in that camp.  Jesus said he came for the lost sheep of Israel, and as you know, some of us believe that the gospels were all about the things happening in "this age" and "the age to come".  I see "this age" as the time Jesus was presently speaking about, and "the age to come" as the next 40 years or so leading up to the end of the temple system of worship, and the 'New Deal'(my words).
I think Paul also had a lot to say about those "end times" in his letters, along with other mysteries he reveals to us.

And what remains for us: "faith, hope, and love". (And I believe, life without end.)

Thanks everyone, this is such a great refuge!
Pat

John,
Thank you for your explanation also.  I know I speak for many when I say I appreciate all of your thought provoking comments.  I also appreciate the amount of 'slack' you allow at times for the sake of making sure the truth prevails.

Thanks to all that make this site possible:   Gary, James, John, Rebecca, Tech People, All Participants, Holy Spirit!
Amen

[jabcat]

John, if you're discussing with someone who dismisses the bulk of the NT, to the exclusion of all but the "red letters", then IMO this quickly becomes an exercise in futility.

Dismiss, no.  Focus for purpose of word study, yes.

Focusing on Yahshua's words is not futile, moderator.  His words have life.

Greg I'm not going argue with you about the reliability of the Scriptures. Of course you've dismissed them.  You've already presented your evidence, earlier calling Paul a liar, as well as dismissing what John has presented to you if he says anything that are the words of the Holy Spirit spoken through Paul.  Of course Jesus's words have life and are important but they're not the only quotes in the Scriptures.   Paul said he preached the whole counsel of God and if that's just tossed out in the discussion then again it becomes fruitless.  So if  you insist on ignoring the rest of the Scriptures in the NT besides the Gospels, then we  will probably just need to lock this and move on.

[greg]

John, if you're discussing with someone who dismisses the bulk of the NT, to the exclusion of all but the "red letters", then IMO this quickly becomes an exercise in futility.

Dismiss, no.  Focus for purpose of word study, yes.

Focusing on Yahshua's words is not futile, moderator.  His words have life.

hey Greg I'm not going argue with you about the reliability of the Scriptures. Of course you're dismissed him you've said so by earlier calling Paul a liar etc.  and of course Jesus's words have life and are important but they're not the only quotes in the Scriptures. Call said he preached the whole counsel of God and if that's just tossed out in the discussion then again it becomes fruitless.  So if  you insist on ignoring the rest of the Scriptures then will probably just need to lock this and move on. Also I recognize your consistent term of "moderator" as insulting little digs don't think it's not noticed

Technically, in my own words I simply asked questions about Paul, without calling him a liar.  For example, I asked why did klhun ("all of them") in Asia reject him? Did those Christians in Asia not have the gospel from the apostles chosen by the Messiah? My personal view on Paul is that the Father knows precisely the value of his words and purpose of his position, just as every hair on our heads is counted. 

John 13:16, "Truly, truly say I to you, that there is not a worker who is greater than his master, nor an apostle greater than he who sent him."

John 3:30-31, "To him, it is necessary to increase and to me [John the Baptist] to decrease."

Regarding the title moderator, I've been addressing you and the other moderator as moderator because you have been interjecting comments as moderators (i.e., citing Tentmaker forum policies, discussing whether to censor me).  In other posts where you do not speak that way, I have addressed you by your screen names.  When I address a judge in court, I call him "judge" because he acts like a judge. 

...

it is a shame your faith is too small to embrace what the scriptures clearly say. You have stopped a little short of true literal translation.

I must admit I have typed some biting replies in my notes, and then edited them in reflection either before posting or shortly afterward.  This is obviously a charged topic; but that does not mean it is not worthwhile to pursue.  I am trying to carry the weight of your forum rules here (for example, I went back to an earlier post and (as EW mod suggested) edited out all comments about Paul that came from another website; as I read those comments in more detail, I saw some were clearly false)...

Is Paul necessary to my salvation?  Is Paul necessary to UR?  How could it be a problem for me to write, "If you wish, please feel free to present your top three verses (Yahshua's words only please) where you find that your translation supports your premise that 'all men are saved for infinite time'..." 

There are several things about ancient languages and grammar that people have learned in the course of this thread. 

As moderators, you have been given the power to make the thread finite though if you wish to annihilate it.  It is possible for you to do that.   :laughing7:

My expectation is that you'll be kind, and I appreciate you allowing me to share this word study about the definite article in Mark 10:30.

[Ross]

1 Tim 1;14,15 " Yet exceeding abundant was the grace of our Lord, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. The saying is faithful, and worthy of all acceptance, that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief. Nevertheless, mercy was shown me on this account, that Christ Jesus might show in me, the chief, His entire longsuffering, for an example of them about to believe on Him to life age-abiding."

* So was Jesus successful?
Romans 9 through 11 by Paul seem to indicate the precision of God's plan.

[GodIsLove]

Regarding asking for Jesus's words to say plainly that all will ultimately be reconciled to God...Jesus spoke in parables. He said:

John 16:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

And:

John 14
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you."

So in Jesus's own words he admits he has not told his apostles everything and that the Holy Spirit would come and "guide you into all truth" and "show you things to come."

These next few passages aren't what you are looking for (plain language that Jesus spoke that says "all will be reconciled to God to live eternally") but they show that God gave Jesus all flesh...and that all that God gave him he will give life  anionios

John 16
"All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

John 17
"Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

Like I said, I think that we can find UR elsewhere in the bible and the Holy Spirit can "guide us into the truth" as well, so I don't think it is necessary for Jesus to have spoken God's ultimate plan in plain language to the apostles. Jesus focused on teaching how to live an anionios life in the here and now (loving one another, giving to the poor, not judging our neighbors, turning the other cheek, living a moral life in thought as well as deed (anger is just as bad as murder, lust is just as bad as adultery) because our thoughts are what give birth to action. He taught how to escape the judgments and repercussions of sin, he rebuked the self-righteous. He also wanted to be crucified so he had to act in a certain way that would ensure he would be put to death.

Jesus wanted to warn people of the destructiveness of sin and "Gehenna" judgments. UR comes after all of that, when God, finally, is all in all.

If there were two destinations to an island paradise, one way was to sail to the island on a safe and calm ship and the other was to swim through rough seas--- as your friend, if I saw you swimming in the sea, would I think to myself that I won't tell you how to get there safely on the boat...I know you will get there eventually swimming through the rough sea.  Or would I tell you repeatedly to sail on the boat, and that the other way is to be avoided because it is just a terrible idea? Yes, everyone will get to be reunited with God, but Jesus was here on earth 1) to be crucified 2) to share the good news that he is the safe boat.

[darryl]

Jesus wanted to warn people of the destructiveness of sin and "Gehenna" judgments. UR comes after all of that, when God, finally, is all in all.

If there were two destinations to an island paradise, one way was to sail to the island on a safe and calm ship and the other was to swim through rough seas--- as your friend, if I saw you swimming in the sea, would I think to myself that I won't tell you how to get there safely on the boat...I know you will get there eventually swimming through the rough sea.  Or would I tell you repeatedly to sail on the boat, and that the other way is to be avoided because it is just a terrible idea? Yes, everyone will get to be reunited with God, but Jesus was here on earth 1) to be crucified 2) to share the good news that he is the safe boat.

yes..I like that metaphor of the strong steady boat vs swimming thru rough sea  ! :dsunny: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

What great verses you have posted, GodIsLove.. Beautiful and enlightening on how the Holy Spirit is guiding Jesus' own into all truth. I hadn't thought about that in relation to this topic.. That much He didn't speak.. And some He did.. and in the light of there was no 'hell' theory in that day, not in connection with the scriptures and Israel.. It was prophesied "light to the Gentiles".. And judgment in the Old Testament was earthly..

To add to this thread, I would only say those in Asia who were turning away from Paul were trying to have prominence and not for the Spirit's sake but for self and the lower and carnal nature.

In all likelihood they were the up and rising, gathering steam, Gnostics, who wanted the pre-eminance.. They were not holding to the head.

The Gnostics - "knowledge falsely called".. It wasn't Jesus who saved it was special "knowledge". They didn't think Jesus actually came in the flesh-here human body/matter, not 'flesh' as the lower, carnal nature-translated flesh - because they viewed matter as evil. Spirit was good. That was okay, but they had adopted the Greek Platonic idea of matter as the opposite of Spirit was evil, so how could Jesus have come in the flesh? They believed the Spirit of Jesus was in him at baptism and left before crucifixion.. "This is antiChrist little children, he who denies Jesus came in the flesh"

These folks were rather fierce enemies of the cross/gospel, preaching "another gospel".. They were "vain babblers" , puffed up, thinking they alone had hidden secret knowledge.. Convincing theirselves they were all that, wise over others, proclaiming their selves leaders and wise. Every word of Jesus could only be interpreted by them as secret knowing and knowledge... arguing over geneologies and myths and "knowledge" Jesus called "the depths of Satan" -

Sorry if I'm repeating myself I'm on this tiny screen again :faint:

Some gnostic groups were very ascetic, touch not, eat not, etc, etc.. Others were immoral and licentious since everything of the body, eating or whatnot was all evil so what the hey. Such was the nicolaitans and let likely Jezebel.. Likely the source of hell and other less than true doctrines..

Whereas Paul's teaching and writing builds on the foundation of the prophets and Old Testament.. And his insights into the unfolding of the gospel are quite profound and like puzzle pieces fit perfectly. He was the ("appointed" apostle to the Gentiles, which too, the gospel to the Gentiles was prophesied too.

Paul as we know was no stranger to opposition! Beaten, abused, stoned.. Notice how Luke traveled with him for a while.. In Acts switching to "we" onward for a while from Philippi.. Then also Timothy and Titus worked with him. He was definitely an integral and central figure in that earliest, forming body of believers.. Just think how much ground he covered, literally and figuratively. And very much used of the Lord to begin and to establish so many first churches! It's really quite something to think about.. Hope I didn't write a book.. Or too many typos.. :mshock:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Some good points Marie.....just wanted to add some understanding on the antichrist spirit and how it was shown to me early on. About 2 weeks before I came to the Lord, I was put on the phone with my friend's Baptist minister who did a dozen questions and all I could say was I don't know what you're talking about. I could not say Jesus lived inside me, in fact, I told my friend her pastor actually asked me if someone else was living inside me, lol. I thought he was a loon, and told her so. How was THAT even possible?

Two weeks after that, I was in his church with her, the Spirit moved me out of my seat where I had been sobbing since the kids church sang "Jesus loves you" at the beginning, and ALL through his service, to go up front for something he called "invitation". I had NO CLUE what that meant, told my friend I felt I was to go up there but what do I do when I get there? She went with me. I didn't know it, but she was backslidden.

Anyway, he starts asking me the same questions, and to my shock, I can only answer yes and sobbing. See, I had received Him by myself on the way to paralegal classes 3 nights before and had told no one of my "unusual prayers and breakdown" in my car on the way to Indy, about 1.5 hour drive of sobbing.

So when I heard that if a man could not say Jesus had come in the flesh he was antichrist in a church a few weeks later that made no sense to me because I always believed He was the son of God, and that He had come in the flesh, and I could say that. I asked the Lord about it.

He pointed out that no man could say Jesus had come in THEIR FLESH, except through the power of the Holy Ghost. Contradiction solved. I was living proof, before and after. What a difference a day makes, Amen?  :friendstu:

[eaglesway]

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.

Behold, I am making all things new!

Sometimes we cant see around a wall that is before us, until someone lifts us up, or until we ascend to higher ground.

"I dwell in the high and holy place, and with those who are of a broken and a contrite heart."

[rosered]

 
I can see Jesus Christ the WORD MADE flesh as the little leaven   that  parable   the good leaven means'' influence''   millions over the course of time  ,,[woman with 3 measures of meal]
woman is significant as the being the church  and 3  as days and the meal being the grain [bread of heaven]

  By one man    came  sin [ Adam did not ''listen''  to the Fathers instruction, Jesus hears  and  come to do nothing but what Father  asks  [ the other parable of 2 sons also  ]

Jesus Christ come in the time of great Violence against the Spirit of God
  All these centuries   of carnal minds ruling  , to be carnally minded is death , so death was  in control , those with  Holy Spirit  guidance was  always before them  leading them or  behind them  fighting for them ,       When Christ Cross made it withing you  , not before or after  , but in the very center of your being
And the exceptions of those   with  Christ     around ''with them'' of old   ,,,

  The lives of men were brutish and poor quality ,    the Word of God said ,   The kingdom of God / spiritual heaven  was entered only by violence   till the  time of John the baptist   ,   and  he is    represents   signifies    and symbolizes  as    it   as  the    least in the kingdom

   The lesser  light     , Jesus Come as the Light of the WORLD    as NOONDAY   if you read the accounts of Joshua   ,    we can  certainly see    What was , the   shadow of the good things to come   and Christ what is

and what will be is the Light 7 times brighter than the sun [ fulness ] in Rev 20,  21& 22

Paul    from Saul meaning asked [parable of the 1 son ]   Paul's new name   given by the Lord Jesus Christ    and  chosen  , called out of the world  represents   , meaning small or little     , this is benjamin  of old the little one   with the silver cup in his  sack , on the  road to Damascus  ,  and Damascus  spiritual meaning is the   sack full of blood  , the cup of blood or new    wine   was from all the prophets of old  bloodshed   and in Christ making it new  and fulfilling all these things of old  foretelling prophecy    in THE WORD OF GOD / JESUS CHRIST  and so both the old and new    wine of  wisdom has mixed her wine
Proverbs    9 The Way of Wisdom
1Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars; 2She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine; She has also set her table; 3She has sent out her maidens, she calls From the tops of the heights of the city:

It is just amazing   how much the puzzle pieces fit  together  Marie    !!!!!!     Paul  is the  messenger sent to the gentiles [ all other nations ]  but Israel    to invite to the LORDS SUPPER      , HEAVEN is open and ready to  receive  the guest       this parable     , made plain speech by the Holy Spirit

Guest  invite everyone  to my supper Matthew 22      the marriage supper of the lamb ,,,,,     the Lamb  of God is the King  as the old and new are in union    , Joined  by the  LORD JESUS CHRIST / WORD OF GOD AND  SPIRIT OF TRUTH    AS ONE AT THAT CROSS ...

And there is so much more than  these things  ,  that all things being fulfilled   in Christ   the anointed WORD OF GOD BY HOLY SPIRIT WITNESS ..

The testimony of Jesus Christ = IS the Spirit of prophecy and comes in peace and joy in the Lord  is the only way to enter     the kingdom of  GOD without being cast out ...
LOVE FEAST and center  as some guests are  still entering in the last hour    . :HeartThrob: Lo  I am with you always until the end of the age  feasting at the Kings  table   with Him and all gathered    as ONE , HOLY ONE  SPIRIT

  Matt28 ...19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.

Behold, I am making all things new!

Sometimes we cant see around a wall that is before us, until someone lifts us up, or until we ascend to higher ground.

"I dwell in the high and holy place, and with those who are of a broken and a contrite heart."

Oh my  goodness John , same witness and same time  , while  writing this you were posting this  :dsunny: :iagree:

I love out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses the truth will be established !!!!!!!!!

   Love   how He is in our midst!!!   :grouppray:

Holy Spirit is moving and breathing on us all   at this   time and am in awe of Gods  mercy and grace    towards us !!!   :HeartThrob:

[greg]

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You have cited the Messiah's words in John 12:32.   As I explained in some detail in post 47, the context for klnSh ("anyone") is set in John 12:25, where Yahshua states, "Whoever loves his life shall destroy it and whoever hates his life in this world shall guard it to life, to a world/age."  In this context, we read John 12:32, that he will draw anyone to him.   If God decides this is everyone, then so it shall be.  If God decides this is anyone, then so it shall be.  As students, we must respect the literal text in this manner.  And as children of God, we must not take from God that which is God's.   "The things hidden are to YHWH our God, and the things revealed are to us and to our sons -- to the age, to do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29.  Proverbs 25:2, "The honor of God is to hide a thing, And the honor of kings to search out a matter."

EW, you said correctly yourself, "Sometimes we cant see around a wall that is before us..."  That's what I'm saying too. This Hebrew & Aramaic word kl is not fully revealed while it remains in a state of possibility outside of context.  To a native speaker in Israel, John 12:25 would not be heard standing alone as an implied declaration for infinite time and space, but rather spoken in the specific space and time context actually provided literally in John 12:25-35.   

The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.

You have cited the Mesiah's words in Matthew 13:33.  Here the Messiah is referring explicitly to a specific place: the kingdom of heaven.  But he does not say that all men throughout time and space are included in the kingdom of heaven, nor that any men in this this kingdom of heaven continue for infinite time.   

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

Remember also Matthew 5:18, amyn gyr am rana lkun dEadma dnEabrun Shmya uarEa yud Khda au Khd srta la nEabr mn nmusa Eadma dkl nhua ("Believe.  For I say to you that until that will cross over heaven and earth, one yod and one stroke not will cross over from the law until that all/any will be." which is followed by Matthew 5:20, "I say to you that if not exceeds your righteousness greater than the scribes and the Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.")  So, logically, if everyone's righteousness eventually exceeds the scribes and Pharisees to get to heaven, why doesn't Yahshua say Eadma "until" your righteousness exceeds.  Instead he says, dan la "if not".  Again, the Messiah is literally stating a word for possibility ("if") in the text.  In God anything is possible.  We are not allowed to force God to save everything, or destroy anything.  It is God's choice.

Behold, I am making all things new!

You have cited the Messiah's words in Revelation 21:5.  The context provided is a specific place on earth, New Jerusalem. 

Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure").  All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

In Rev 21:4, the text refers to the new earth when it says 'death will not be' in that one particular world/age.  Indeed, one of the key limiting words used in this verse mkyl ("now" or "therefore") is used throughout the gospel in a limiting sense to some measurable amount of time or a measurable conclusion in a current world/age.  See e.g., Matthew 26:45 (referring to one night's sleep), Mark 11:14 (referring to the present world in comparison to a world to come), Mark 14:41 (same as Matthew 26:45), John 14:30 (messiah says he won't speak again at that time rather than ever again); John 17:11 (messiah says he won't be in the world again at that time rather than ever again).    Even the root of the word is mn kul ("from measurement").

The word mkyl is a combination of the roots mn ("from") and kl ("any/all"), so it is naturally dependent on context for meaning (i.e., from who/what/where/when; all/any of who/what/where/when). Here the context is set in terms of new Jerusalem in the new age/world; so that is the specific 'Where' and 'When' that sets the context for how "death will not be thereforward," in new Jerusalem in the new age/world. This verse does not say that the new Jerusalem in the new world/age continues for perpetual time or exists outside of time. To claim perpetual time or eternal time from this verse would be an assumption outside the literal text.

[sheila]

everyone who believes in Jesus Christ has a righteousness far above those of the Pharisee's and Sadducee's.................

   they believed the truth/believed God. the Pharisees's and Sadducee's didn't.

     mustn't lay up heavy loads on men's shoulder's impossible to bear..eh? Greg.

[eaglesway]

And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."

The context is the Alpha Omega, "For from Him(Alpha) and through Him and to Him(Omega) are all things"(Rom 11:26)


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation(Alpha). 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven(Omega). Col 1

The new Jerusalem is not of the earth.... we are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.....

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.  Heb 12

But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. Gal 4:26

And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations(peoples- ha goyim).
He will swallow up death for all time, Isaiah 25:7,8

The veil is death.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor 4)

When God is all in all, all will have been made new, death will be no more, there will be no more dying, ONLY LIFE.

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits(Alpha) of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all[b](Omega)[/b].

His reign is about the reconciliation of all. He rules in order to redeem. His ascension is about a process of Jesus Christ gathering all creation into life. Life reigning over death until death is no more.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God(Alpha), did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.(Omega)

His name is LIFE. His being "lifted up from the earth" is because of the cross, but involves more than the cross. He is drawing all men unto Him because His exaltation is the result of His ultimate humiliation.... "No Greater Love".

This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."'
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."(Acts 2)

He descended to the uttermost, therefore he ascends to the uttermost..

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things(Eph 4)

It is everywhere, all over the scriptures.


The context in Rev 21:5 is Jesus, ascended above all heavens, so that He might fill all things.

We are the Bride "coming down out of heaven"

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, THE FULLNESS OF HIM WHO FILLS ALL IN ALL.
Eph 1

We are the first fruits of the kingdom of God, 'which is likened unto a woman who hid a measure of leaven in three gallons of dough until it was all leavened".....

In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. James 1:18

In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8)

The leaven of the kingdom is hidden in us, but it will leaven the whole creation in the ages to come.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Our work is His work and it will be the ministry of reconciliation through out the world ages that remain until all are free from futility, all gathered out of death into life.


And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."(Rev 5:13)

The context of Rev 21:5 is Christ enthroned in the heavens, Christ enthroned over time, Christ enthroned within the ecclesia. Christ filling all things. Nullifying death. God gathering everything in heaven and on earth into one in Christ.

Jesus Christ reigns in life. YHWH is the God of the Living. Jesus the creator of all life.(Alpha) Jesus the destroyer of death and the redeemer of all life(Omega)

Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

[marie glen]

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen, amen..

lots of great verses..!

"It is everywhere, all over the scriptures."


"The leaven of the kingdom is hidden in us, but it will leaven the whole creation in the ages to come."

"A 2 Z" (a to z :smile: ) doesn't leave much "outside"...

"Jesus has not ascended over all that he may fill "some things" :thumbsup:

                        .........."God is love" - "Love NEVER fails" ..never..

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

I love that love never fails :o)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen John.....always.... right.on.point.  :thumbsup:

[greg]

"Write, for these words are faithful and true." 6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."

This quote from the Messiah is found in Revelation 1:8 and Revelation 22:13.

Here is the fuller context of the quote in Revelation 22:10-13 zbna gyr qrb udmEaul Thub nEaul udTsEa Thub nTstEaTsEa uzdyqa Thub nEabd zdyquTha uqdySha Thub nThqdSh ha aTha ana mKhda uagry Eamy uaThl lklnSh ayk Eabdh ana alp uana tu qdmya uaKhrya uShurya uShulma ("For the time/exchange approaches. And he being unjust/oppressive/lawless again will be being unjust/oppressive/lawless.  And he polluted/foul/impure again will pollute/foul.  And the righteous again will work righteousness and the holy again will be holy. Behold, I come immediately and my reward with me.  And I give to anyone/all-men like his works.  I am aleph. And I am tav.  The first and the last, and the beginning/origin and the completion/deliverance."

This one is a little better for your position, because the translation of klnSh as "anyone" in Revelation 22:12 doesn't seem to be suggested by the context.  The context is broad (i.e., aleph to tav) and appears to be governing all men that were just literally described in Revelation 22:11 (i.e, the unjust will be unjust again; the righteous will be righteous again).

The literal text specifies that the Messiah is the beginning and the end.  The time and space context is 'the Messiah' ("I") and 'the Word' (aleph and tav). 

The Messiah does not say that saved persons are the Word.  Nor does he say that saved persons live for infinite time.

Imagine a Christian named Joeb Oltestamint who tried to claim that he is Alpha & Omega, the beginning and the completion?  What would God say to our friend Joeb.  Recall Job 38:4, "Where were you [Job] when I [YHWH] founded earth? Declare, if you have known understanding."

Would our friend Joeb really assume that tav (omega) suggests infinite time?  Tav and Omega are simply the last letters of their respective alphabets.  They represent the end of an alphabet/world built on words, not the continuation of the infinite time dimension for all future ages and worlds.

As YHWH transforms all things and as heaven and earth pass away (as Psalm 102:25-27 says), anything outside aleph to tav represents something beyond our horizon.  Is it not possible to God that there are dimensions and worlds and ages that are not built on the 22-Hebrew letters, aleph through tav?  Indeed, the Messiah here describes tav (omega) as "the end".  Students interested in further study here should consider aTha as a title of honor and prophecy for the Messiah.

Again, there is no guarantee in the literal gospel that every human on this one earth will continue to be saved throughout infinite time and space and other dimensions.  You're free to believe that if you want, but...

Matthew 10:28, "And awe not of them who slaughter the body and are not able to slaughter the soul: but awe of Him who is able to destroy soul and body in Gehanna, the Valley of Burning."

There's that word again "able".  In Aramaic, it is the same root word as "possible". 

And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations(peoples- ha goyim).
He will swallow up death for all time, Isaiah 25:7,8

First, please notice the entire quote in the chapter, Isaiah 25:6-8 uEaShh yhuh TsbauTh lkl hEamym bhr hzh mShThh Shmnym mShThh Shmrym Shmnym mmKhym Shmrym mzqqym ublEa bhr hzh pny hlut hlut Eal kl hEamym uhmskh hnsukh Eal kl hguym blEa hmuTh lnTsKh umKhh adny yhuh dmEah mEal pnym uKhrpTh Eamu ysyr mEal kl harTs ky yhuh ("And shall make YHWH of hosts for all/any people in this mountain a feast of fat things a feast of wines on the lees of fat things full of marrow of wines on the lees well refined. And he will swallow up in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all the people, that the veil is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death completely and will wipe away the Lord YHWH tears from upon all faces. And the rebuke of his people he shall take away from off all the land, for YHWH has spoken."

The time and space context is at least initially limited to "all/any people in this mountain" and 'earthly meals' of "fat things" and bone "marrow" and "wines on the lees".  It does not refer to infinite time and space.  Further, the text is limited to the way the rebuke is lifted off "the land".  Throughout the bible, harTs ("land") is a specific place on earth (usually referring to one region on the surface of the earth in context), and does not refer to infinite time and space and dimensions.

Second, notice that the word blEa ("swallow") literally means "swallow/consume/cover".  It does not literally mean 'destroy' or 'annihilate'.  Indeed, throughout the old testament blEa routinely means to conceal for a limited time:

• Numbers 4:20 – the holy things are blEa ("covered") in the Tabernacle; they are not 'annihilated' in the tabernacle
• Jonah 1:17 – a large fish blEa ("swallowed up") Jonah for three days and three nights, and afterwards Jonah was fine
• 2 Samuel 2:20 – distinguishing the word ablEa ("swallowed up") from the word aShKhyTh ("destroy")
• Job 20:15 – riches are blEa ("swallowed up") but then God orders them to come right back out of the mouth

In order for blEa to indicate utter annihilation, there must be additional context and additional words provided.   And again, in Isaiah 25:6-8 the context is very earthly, referring to specific people in a mountain on earth, and those people are banqueting with "fat things" "marrow" and "wine".  There is no rational basis to suggest a promise for infinite time and space from Isaiah 25:6-8.  However, the next verses in Isaiah 25:9-12 are interpretive.  The context is probably a limited time and place on earth, as we read byum ("in that day") and then the prophet explains how Moab (a specific place on earth) and its fortresses are brought down to dust. 

More specifically though, this shows that the Lord has complete power over death. He can swallow it up at His command, and send it forth at His command.

Third, the Hebrew word nTsKh ("completely" or "continually") does not literally translate as 'all time'.  Rather it means "fully/completely" or "continually" for the context specified – so if that context is limited (i.e., a day, a life, an age), so is the word (i.e., continues for a day, continues for a life, continues for an age).  The word can only be read in context, which is why we find examples where the translation 'all time' for nTsKh would be illogical:  Jeremiah 50:39 (wild beasts live there, but not man from generation to generation; nTsKh presented in the limited terms of man's generations). See also Psalm 9:5-6, abdTh rShEa Shmm mKhyTh lEaulm uEad hauyb Thmu KhrbuTh lnTsKh uEarym nThShTh abd zkrm hmh ("You have destroyed the wicked.  Their name you have put out to a world/age-during.  The enemy, finished have been destructions completely. The cities you uprooted, perished has the memorial with them.")   See also Psalm 49:9.

Incidentally, the word nTsKh  has multiple meanings too, as it often means "glory".

Note that this word is also used in Job quite a bit, but not in a doctrinal sense where it is used by Job's friends for purposes of speculation. See e.g., Job 4:20 mbqr lEarb ykThu mbly mShym lnTsKh yabdu ("From morning to evening they are destroyed outside any regarding completely they perish.") 

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."(Rev 5:13)

First, this praise in Revelation 5:13 is directed to the Creator and the Messiah.  It is not directed to humans.  This verse does not support your theory that all humans have immortal souls for infinite time.

Second, the literal text does not translate "forever and ever", but rather lEalm Ealmyn "age/word ages/worlds", and then it is followed immediately in Revelation 5:14 by one word from the four living beings, "amyn" ("perpetual" or "amen").  This literal detail helps show the character by which these living creatures offer praise to the Creator and the Messiah.  We creatures are all rising and falling inside different ages and worlds at any given time and space, and we creatures speak only from what we know and what is given to us.  It is not appropriate/honest for any living creature (any created being) to make statements beyond his or her dimensional capacity.

For students interested in further study here, note that the word "praise" here (ThShbu) on the Crawford Codex) is from the root Shb. This unique word can be found in the old testament (e.g., Genesis 46:34, Leviticus 8:35) to describe 'dwelling', 'sitting', or 'remaining'. As highlighted by Fabre d'Olivet in Hebraic Tongue Restored (pp.456-57), the word origin of Shb is actually about 'returning home'. Here in Rev 5:13, the context would explain that Yahshua 'dwells' and/or 'returns home' to honor and dominion lEalm Ealmyn ("to a world/age worlds/ages") so the expression here would confirm that the Messiah is "worlds/ages" older than this world, and that he lives beyond the horizon as well, to "worlds/ages". 'Beyond the horizon' is where He came from, and to where He is going.

[eaglesway]

There was nothing in my post that suggested in the slightest that anyone other than Messiah is Alpha and Omega.

The context was His exaltation, the subjection of every adversary, and the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, until God becomes all in all.

"behold I make all things new."

Really simple stuff. Straight up, the Lord never minces words.

"If I am lifted up from the earth i will draw all men unto me."

Those two verses are enough for me but there are 30 or more that all say the same thing in both the old testament and the new.

It seems you are only literal when it suits you, then you meander around with straw arguments about individual words, never addressing the larger body of verses i have presented in any substantial way.