Mark 10:30 - reality check for preachers of man's infinity soul

[lastpost]

Personally, I have come to understand that time can be the time of the transient earth or the time of the unchanging God, depending on who perceives – whether seen by the spirit of the earth or by the Spirit gifted by the all-generous Supreme.

I believe that he is blessed who no longer pays deference to the prince of the sense-world, who is no longer content with the shadow of the real, who has abandoned the regeneration of falsity from falsity.

A spirit is attracted whether it is of the world or whether it is of the Spirit, as sure as copper conducts electricity.

Blessed is he who knows that the Supreme Spirit is as close as breath and as far as far – where the space and time of the world of the senses ceases to exist, where the words of the earth become the shed husk, having played their part, revealing the endless glory of the Divine within.

Sin and death has been conquered by the Christ in you – your Christ.

Peace, calm, quiet, be still, not looking here and there but being awareness.

"Be not afraid, for with thee I am. Look not around, for I am thy God"

Christ is always here in the Present, you in Him and He in you – the absence of the physical body having no bearing on His Presence. The reality is now, now is the time. He shall not go anywhere but the corrupt and fallen senses belonging to Satan may hide Him from the real You. Begone and see!

Christ is ageless, ever youthful. Christ is born to us this day, it is the only Day that has ever been, and it has always been, and it always shall be – it is the ~NOW~ of Christ's Spirit, and it is yours – see the Day draw nigh.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Awesome post.  :thumbsup:

[greg]

...

God has abolished death. As we enter Christ death is abolished forever, not just for an age. and lest we take Paul's word for it.....

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

:Peace2:

Thank you for your comment.

I actually disagree with your non-literal translation "never" in John 11:26.  Here is the actual literal translation of John 11:24-27, "Yeshua said to her, 'Your brother shall arise.' Martha said to him, 'I know that he shall rise in the resurrection in the last day.'  Yeshua said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live.  And any who live and believe in me lEalm ("to a world/age") shall not die. Do you believe this?' And she said to him, 'Yes, my Lord, I do believe that you are The Messiah, The Son of God, who has come into the world.'"

Yahshua specifically set the context -- "to a world/age" -- that is where/when a person will not die.  And further, Yahshua was responding to Martha's context, "in the resurrection in the last day".  Neither of these two contexts refer explicitly to infinite time or infinite space.   Accordingly, your translation "forever" is a non-literal assumption.  If Yahshua wanted to refer explicitly to infinite time, he could have done so easily by saying 'time without end'.  Or he could have even implied it by saying mThum ('ever'), but he didn't say that either.  He said lEalm ("to a world/age"), which throughout the bible has a 100% consistent meaning in reference to a world or an age.  In this manner, the literal text of the bible is flawless. 

And when a person is transported "to a world/age" they do not become the entire thing.  When you are born on earth for example, you do not become the entire earth.  As students of language, we are not allowed to just insert the word "infinity" or "never" or "ever" where the text does not use it.   We are not allowed to conjugate the root word "age/world" so that the branch is divorced from the root. 

Notice John 8:51-52:  "Amen! Amen! I word to you, Whoever guards my word sees not death lEalm ("to a world/age"). So the Judeans word to him, Now we know you have a demon: Abraham is dead — and the prophets: and you — you word, Whoever guards my word, he tastes not death lEalm ("to a world/age")."

Remember, the the Pharisees believed in "forever and ever", and Yahshua had previously told them in John 5:39 that they had the wrong thinking about this concept, "Examine the scriptures: for in them you presume to have life dlEalm : and these are witnessing concerning me: and you will to not come to me to have life dlEalm ."

The Pharisees had a habit of assuming infinities and even assuming that Ealm meant "ever", which is why John 8:51-52 makes sense.  They assumed Yahshua was lying because he said Ealm.  If you interpret it literally, then Yahshua is telling the truth.  But if you interpret it non-literally (as the Pharisees did), then Abraham will not die ever.   Indeed, even Simon Peter used the phrase like the Pharisees in John 13:8, and Yahshua immediately corrected him.  Here is the literal John 13:7-8, "Yahshua answers him saying, 'The thing I am doing you know not now: but afterwards you will know. Simon Kapa says to him, la Ealm you wash my feet."  Yahshua is explicitly advising Peter that Peter doesn't understand what's happening.  As Peter was using the term in a figurative sense (that is to mean "ever"), the messiah corrected him, and washed Peter's feet in that very moment.  If you are interested in further study here please review the old testament Hebraicism of 'foot washing' as an example of physical renewal, but let's move on to the next example in this word study.

Notice how in John 10:27-29, Yahshua specifically qualifies that "no man" can destroy someone given to him, "My own sheep hear my voice and I know them: and they come after me and I give them life dlEalm ("that to a world/age"): and they destruct not lEalm ("to a world/age"), and no human seizes them from my hand. For my Father gave them to me, he is greater than all: and no human is able from the hand of my Father to seize them."

If saved men cannot be destroyed later, why would Yahshua limit his words twice to "no human". Why didn't he say "nothing ever" or "nothing in the universe" or "not even my Father", or anything along those lines to suggest infinite grace?  Shall we presume that YHWH himself lacks the power to destroy men who fall from grace?  Or if someone shall never fall from grace, then where is the explicit promise of that in the gospel?  I think the reason I can't find it in the gospel, is because the bible promises that YHWH transforms everything in its season, and only YHWH (and those who continue to live in Him, namely the Son) lives perpetually. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

There is more to this saga than we are discussing in this thread.  At the end of the fourth gospel, the beloved disciple makes a special point to challenge the rumor that had gone out among the disciples that the beloved disciple would not die.  As we read in John 21:23, "But Yahshua did not say that he [the beloved disciple] would not die, but rather, 'if I desire that this one remain until I return, what is that to you."

Matthew 11:14 regarding John the Baptist, "And if you desire to accept it, this is Elijah who was to come."

[rosered]

:cloud9: Awesome post.  :thumbsup:

  Yes it is ,   and  John said almost exactly the same ,  But in different   words and a different way , but it all points to the Lord Jesus Christ, The Word made flesh .

  The earthly  kind and the spiritual kind .  And do not  doubt  His presence  is not with us all  ,  this day .    :HeartThrob:

God has abolished death. As we enter Christ death is abolished forever, not just for an age. and lest we take Paul's word for it.....

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

To God be the glory  :grouppray:

[eaglesway]

Greg

I have no problem with "shall not die" as opposed to "shall never die" but the problem is you have missed my point entirely(which may be on me).

I was not saying God cannot destroy a man later.... altho I dont believe he does. I was saying Jesus cannot save a man who has been utterly destroyed.

You cannot make apolumi mean utter destruction in relation to aionian judgment and then make it mean something else in this world age. Jesus saves the "lost" and the "ruined"(apolumi), He does not save the  "DESTROYED".

Therefore the word "destroyed" is as much a red herring as the word "forever" when it comes to literal translation- as inconvenient as that may be for an annihilationist, it is nevertheless the fact.

Apolumi does not mean utter destruction at all, so it is not a matter of what God can or cant do, it is a matter of what the scriptures say He will do, which is to gather together all things into one in Christ, and to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of Christ's cross.

Whether or not John 12:35 says "never" or "not" is a straw argument. Also, pretty much everyone on this forum understands aion/aionios/olam/world ages, etc. The issue is this, imho :o)- Just because God's plan is an administration suitable to the times, executed through the ages, does not mean that the life of the redeemed is limited to the age. Aionian life lasts through the ages because it is the life of God, and it is immortal- according to the scriptures.

And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.(Heb 7;16)

If any man is in Christ Jesus old things have passed away, Behold, all things become new. The inheritance of believers, as members of His body, as branches in the Vine, is that same indestructible life.

I also find it interesting that you do not accept that anyone has life forever, but yet you do believe that God will give people death forever.

When you speak of literal interpretations and translations, all I hear is "literally what I say it is", because you clearly do not accept the literal translation regarding the word destroyed, and you have explained away "all" as a Hebrew idiom that cannot be accepted as it is written, using context as your justification- but I think the context is clear, as well as consistent with the literal translation- and simply means all.

All will be subjected. All will be reconciled. All will be gathered into one in Christ. And God will be all in all. For from Him and thru Him and to Him are all things.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: He IS Risen :HeartThrob:

[darryl]

...

God has abolished death. As we enter Christ death is abolished forever, not just for an age. and lest we take Paul's word for it.....

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

:Peace2:

Thank you for your comment.

I actually disagree with your non-literal translation "never" in John 11:26.  Here is the actual literal translation of John 11:24-27, "Yeshua said to her, 'Your brother shall arise.' Martha said to him, 'I know that he shall rise in the resurrection in the last day.'  Yeshua said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live.  And any who live and believe in me lEalm ("to a world/age") shall not die. Do you believe this?' And she said to him, 'Yes, my Lord, I do believe that you are The Messiah, The Son of God, who has come into the world.'"

Yahshua specifically set the context -- "to a world/age" -- that is where/when a person will not die.  And further, Yahshua was responding to Martha's context, "in the resurrection in the last day".  Neither of these two contexts refer explicitly to infinite time or infinite space.   Accordingly, your translation "forever" is a non-literal assumption.  If Yahshua wanted to refer explicitly to infinite time, he could have done so easily by saying 'time without end'.  Or he could have even implied it by saying mThum ('ever'), but he didn't say that either.  He said lEalm ("to a world/age"), which throughout the bible has a 100% consistent meaning in reference to a world or an age.  In this manner, the literal text of the bible is flawless. 

And when a person is transported "to a world/age" they do not become the entire thing.  When you are born on earth for example, you do not become the entire earth.  As students of language, we are not allowed to just insert the word "infinity" or "never" or "ever" where the text does not use it.   We are not allowed to conjugate the root word "age/world" so that the branch is divorced from the root. 

Notice John 8:51-52:  "Amen! Amen! I word to you, Whoever guards my word sees not death lEalm ("to a world/age"). So the Judeans word to him, Now we know you have a demon: Abraham is dead — and the prophets: and you — you word, Whoever guards my word, he tastes not death lEalm ("to a world/age")."

Remember, the the Pharisees believed in "forever and ever", and Yahshua had previously told them in John 5:39 that they had the wrong thinking about this concept, "Examine the scriptures: for in them you presume to have life dlEalm : and these are witnessing concerning me: and you will to not come to me to have life dlEalm ."

The Pharisees had a habit of assuming infinities and even assuming that Ealm meant "ever", which is why John 8:51-52 makes sense.  They assumed Yahshua was lying because he said Ealm.  If you interpret it literally, then Yahshua is telling the truth.  But if you interpret it non-literally (as the Pharisees did), then Abraham will not die ever.   Indeed, even Simon Peter used the phrase like the Pharisees in John 13:8, and Yahshua immediately corrected him.  Here is the literal John 13:7-8, "Yahshua answers him saying, 'The thing I am doing you know not now: but afterwards you will know. Simon Kapa says to him, la Ealm you wash my feet."  Yahshua is explicitly advising Peter that Peter doesn't understand what's happening.  As Peter was using the term in a figurative sense (that is to mean "ever"), the messiah corrected him, and washed Peter's feet in that very moment.  If you are interested in further study here please review the old testament Hebraicism of 'foot washing' as an example of physical renewal, but let's move on to the next example in this word study.

Notice how in John 10:27-29, Yahshua specifically qualifies that "no man" can destroy someone given to him, "My own sheep hear my voice and I know them: and they come after me and I give them life dlEalm ("that to a world/age"): and they destruct not lEalm ("to a world/age"), and no human seizes them from my hand. For my Father gave them to me, he is greater than all: and no human is able from the hand of my Father to seize them."

If saved men cannot be destroyed later, why would Yahshua limit his words twice to "no human". Why didn't he say "nothing ever" or "nothing in the universe" or "not even my Father", or anything along those lines to suggest infinite grace?  Shall we presume that YHWH himself lacks the power to destroy men who fall from grace?  Or if someone shall never fall from grace, then where is the explicit promise of that in the gospel?  I think the reason I can't find it in the gospel, is because the bible promises that YHWH transforms everything in its season, and only YHWH (and those who continue to live in Him, namely the Son) lives perpetually. Psalm 102:25-27 – "You have laid the foundation of the earth of old.  And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish but You shall חעמד ("stand/endure"). All of them shall become old like a garment.  You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed. But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended."

There is more to this saga than we are discussing in this thread.  At the end of the fourth gospel, the beloved disciple makes a special point to challenge the rumor that had gone out among the disciples that the beloved disciple would not die.  As we read in John 21:23, "But Yahshua did not say that he [the beloved disciple] would not die, but rather, 'if I desire that this one remain until I return, what is that to you."

Matthew 11:14 regarding John the Baptist, "And if you desire to accept it, this is Elijah who was to come."

so you are saying that some will be utterly destroyed out of existence ?...annihilated ?...sounds 'ok' but it contradicts Scripture..quite a few Bible verses state that 'all' shall be saved... my take on it is that 'wickedness' in humans shall indeed be destroyed leaving only the 'good' which lasts forever...that's kind of a simplistic answer, there's more to it than that but that'll do for now I guess.Of course all of this is like a blind man trying to describe an elephant, we know so little..we 'see thru a glass darkly'..God obviously has not revealed absolutely everything to us in the Bible about the next 'world'..when we get there we'll understand a lot more obviously...in the meantime I'm just trying to 'glean ' truth from what Scripture has revealed to us.

[greg]

so you are saying that some will be utterly destroyed out of existence ?...annihilated ?...sounds 'ok' but it contradicts Scripture..quite a few Bible verses state that 'all' shall be saved...

...

Actually, the word kl is just commonly translated "all" because an English speaker interpreted it that way.  In the reality of 1st Century Israel, kl just as often means "any".  You can verify this fact with a dictionary and a concordance, and as you read the bible, you will see these statements carry weight in the literal text...

"Anyone" can be saved.  "Any man" can be lifted up. 

Indeed, as I wrote earlier, Mark 6:39 is probably the funniest example to prove this point that is obvious in the language of first century Israel, "And he commanded them to seat klnSh on the grass."  Does Yahshua refer to "all men throughout time and space" or simply "them" who were present that day on the grass?

Every time kl is utilized, its context defines the word.  By itself, it never means "all".  Likewise, by itself, it never means "any".  It only takes meaning in context.  Without context, it resides in a state of probability.  And that is no small thing... students interested in studying probability and the way that the Messiah is Light, please research the word mShykKha.  There is a joy and refinement that comes from studying these words.

[marie glen]

YHWH will be any in any? And "God will have any men to be saved"? I can't research it right now, hubby's on my computer and I'm on this iPhone.. But I might later.. But you see.. Yahweh can only be perfect, and perfect loses nothing.. And "His Word will not return to Him void but will accomplish all (any?) of His will"? I daresay it is probable all in included in the original meaning. Since he can only be Perfect, the 'end' result can only be the best one possible.

"He will gather any things in heaven and earth into Jesus"..? He is more than able.. "God is the savior of any" - even were that the limited meaning.. There's still not anywhere in the scriptures that says after death all hope is lost.. Only that they will die in their sins, which simply means they will rise in their sins, seeing as all will be raised.. And really why raise any that we're going to perish? We know Him and that is not conceivable with He who is love and light "with no darkness at all".. No shadow.. No shifting shadow.

I'm thinking tho if this application in some way glorifies Him, then perhaps it may be possible the slant you propose is correct.. If it less than glorifies His perfect nature, it's simply not possible..

Later! Hope your day is being filled by His awesome Presence.. And thus that wonderful peace which springs up into such enduring joy.. :smile:

Hope I didn't make too many mistakes on this tiny screen :o haha :))

[marie glen]

P.S - and if He will save "any" - all those, including which never heard the gospel before death - any who experience rising in their sins, I.e. Resurrection and witness what surely will have to be a - long - 'day' of judgment/review/discernment/"krises" in the Greek if I'm remembering right, (decision?)

If he will save any who will believe, well, after experiencing all that (aka being resurrected from their grave) who's nOt going to believe?? :o
:smile:

[marie glen]

...hope I didn't misunderstand, "any" or "all" in context, the save all still mor'n likely holds true..  :Peace2:

Well I know it holds true - chuckle, U.R. that is :))

...but if you get my drift.. about the verses

[greg]

...

Whether or not John 12:35 says "never" or "not" is a straw argument. Also, pretty much everyone on this forum understands aion/aionios/olam/world ages, etc. The issue is this, imho :o)- Just because God's plan is an administration suitable to the times, executed through the ages, does not mean that the life of the redeemed is limited to the age. Aionian life lasts through the ages because it is the life of God, and it is immortal- according to the scriptures.

...
When you speak of literal interpretations and translations, all I hear is "literally what I say it is", because you clearly do not accept the literal translation regarding the word destroyed, and you have explained away "all" as a Hebrew idiom that cannot be accepted as it is written, using context as your justification- but I think the context is clear, as well as consistent with the literal translation- and simply means all.

All will be subjected. All will be reconciled. All will be gathered into one in Christ. And God will be all in all. For from Him and thru Him and to Him are all things.

Almost sounds like a Greek story line "...and everyone on earth lived happily ever after, ever after, ever after, never the end."

Like I said, if people want to believe that every man is immortal, go ahead.  It's your forum Moderator.  I've shared my testimony here that I found that teaching emotionally frightening as a child, and non-literal as an adult.  As I've been reading replies to this post, I also see there are others here on the forum who say they prefer not to think too much about everlasting time. And they are adults.  It's pretty frightening man, so if you're wrong, then that's an issue...

The Greek mystics and Pharisees preached everlasting souls to their followers, as did many Essenes (who also preached infinite hell).  Yahshua didn't join any of their groups.  Instead, He commanded, Thv bThry ("come after me").

When an English translation implies absolutes of infinite time and space and power that are not actually stated in the literal text, I do not think it is fair to present those snippets as if they were clear scripture in support of infinite time and space and power.

A clear statement of infinite time would be, 'Every soul continues for time without end, regardless of worlds and ages' <-- not Yahshua's words, but quite easy to find in Greek literature.

Aionian life lasts through the ages because it is the life of God, and it is immortal- according to the scriptures.

So, I gather your argument then is that because God is immortal that men must also be immortal?  Yahshua never said that.  God is pre-existent too.  Shall all men also plan to be pre-existent?  If so, then how did Yahshua come before David?  Or would your argument be that the infinite time dimension is just a one way street for man?

[greg]

YHWH will be any in any?

Notice, Marie, that you are speaking English and have not written the grammar correctly.  When you do that, it doesn't sound beautiful in English.   But if you use the correct grammar in the language of first century Israel...

Let me give you an example that you already like in English to prove this point, "In God all things are possible".   Notice the 'all'.  Now you know and understand that 'all' and 'any' are the same word.  The meaning is that to God anything is possible.  All things, or one thing, or a million things -- it's God's choice.  (Again, if I were writing this in Aramaic, it would sound even better because you'd see the wordplay).

God is the author of possibility.  Any man can be saved.  But if every man must be saved, then God is limited because he can destroy no man.  Any rock can be lifted.  But if every rock must be lifted, then God must lift every rock.  And so on...  do not remove from God what is God's.  Possibility is God's.  The word "messiah" is a wordplay for "possibility", Marie.

...

I'm thinking tho if this application in some way glorifies Him, then perhaps it may be possible the slant you propose is correct.. If it less than glorifies His perfect nature, it's simply not possible..

Later! Hope your day is being filled by His awesome Presence.. And thus that wonderful peace which springs up into such enduring joy.. :smile:

Hope I didn't make too many mistakes on this tiny screen :o haha :))

I've really appreciated your post, thank you. 

In the study of quantum electrodynamics (QED), light itself is governed by probability.  The movement of all electrons and photons are completely entwined with probability. 

That is why, again, it is no small thing that in Israel in the first century, the word kl means both 'all' and 'any'.  Like light, it resides in a state of probability until you focus upon it.  That is what context does, it focuses.

[eaglesway]

Greg,

When we say, "In God all things are possible", we mean it. All things are possible. There is nothing that is not possible for God..

When the scripture says God will be all in all, it means just that.

You see, the "Good News" does have a happy ending.

Almost sounds like a Greek story line "...and everyone on earth lived happily ever after, ever after, ever after, never the end."

Exactly. It seems you havent noticed the scriptures that have been presented, and are too stuck in your paradigm to give them an real listen.

Your answers have been rhetorical not scriptural.

You rely on "literal translation" on the one hand- then deny literal translation when it suits your doctrine.

The scripture doesnt say "any man can be saved."

Jesus said I will draw all men unto me.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess

Colossians 1:15-20 sets the context. All things He created will be reconciled.

1 Cor 15 sets the contest, "For He must reign until every adversary is subjected. The last enemy is death. When all things are subjected he will hand them over to the Father so that God may be all in all."

What is so hard to see there? What enemy will hold out against God forever. His love will triumph over all. His love is the fire. His love is the light. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.

it is a shame your faith is too small to embrace what the scriptures clearly say. You have stopped a little short of true literal translation.

[GodIsLove]

Greg,
I think it is a rare occurrence that someone can be "debated" and change their position on a belief. It usually results in all parties being more entrenched in their original belief, and that is holding true in this thread.

I am glad you are here and I am glad you have found peace from your childhood fear instilled in you about eternity, and I'm glad you are still a believer, and not an ET proponent :)

The best thing to do is trust God, realize we are blind men describing and elephant (thanks Darryl :)) and thank God he won't roast anyone for eternity :). Pray. Pray for answers, for guidance, for peace, for love. Let God shape us.

The other eons can wait, today is what I focus on.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Greg.....just wondering what you mean by, Messiah is a wordplay for possibility?  :dontknow: Thanks in advance for explaining.... :Peace2:

[greg]

Greg,
I think it is a rare occurrence that someone can be "debated" and change their position on a belief. It usually results in all parties being more entrenched in their original belief, and that is holding true in this thread.

I am glad you are here and I am glad you have found peace from your childhood fear instilled in you about eternity, and I'm glad you are still a believer, and not an ET proponent :)

The best thing to do is trust God, realize we are blind men describing and elephant (thanks Darryl :)) and thank God he won't roast anyone for eternity :). Pray. Pray for answers, for guidance, for peace, for love. Let God shape us.

The other eons can wait, today is what I focus on.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Thank you

:gimmefive:

Mark 10:27-31, Khr dyn bhun yShuEa uamr lhun luTh bny anSha hda la mShkKha ala luTh alha kl mdm gyr mShkKha luTh alha uShry kapa lmamr ha Khnn Shbqn kl mdm unqpnk Eana yShuEa uamr amyn amr ana lkun dlyTh anSh dShbq bTha au aKha au aKhuTha au aba au ama au anThTha au bnya au qurya mtlThy umtl sbrThy ula nqbl Khd bmaa hSha bzbna hna bTha uaKha uaKhuTha uamhTha ubnya uqurya Eam rdupya ubEalma daTha Khya dlEalm sgyaa dyn qdmya dnhuun aKhrya uaKhrya qdmya

"And Yahshua looked in them and said to them, 'To the sons of men this is not possible, but to God any/all whatever is possible to God. And began Kapa to say 'behold, we have left any/all whatever and followed you.' Answered Yahshua and said, 'Truly say I to you that there is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields because of me and because of my gospel and not will receive one hundredfold now in this time/exchange houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the world/age to come life that is to a world/age.'  And many are first who will be last, and last first."

:cloud9: @ Greg.....just wondering what you mean by, Messiah is a wordplay for possibility?  :dontknow: Thanks in advance for explaining.... :Peace2:

In the language of the apostles...
mShykKha = possibilities
mShyKha = messiah

[marie glen]

I can see, Greg, what you're saying about possibility.. All things possible, of course :smile: for Him.. but not mandated.. Maybe this discussion would have been better on members only board .. don't know.. I'm fascinated by, I don't want to say quantum physics - I don't know much about that .. But I can't think of the right phrase! What it' called , and too lazy to look it up.. At the primordial? level of atoms? their behavior changes under observation / if someone is watching it/them.. possibilities, more for us mortals than we realize.. creative 'power' in our thoughts and words.. But I stray..

But I have a real passion for God's message ( and for truth) and am a simple gal and want with all my heart for the UR message to remain clear and simple, easy to see and grasp and understand.. I consider myself a real nerd about some things! :o

thanks :smile:

[eaglesway]

I dont think a discussion like this needs to be in a members only room. We here at tentmaker are boldly proclaiming the salvation of all.

I will probably offend somebody by this(but I dont mean to)-I am not here to entertain the possibility of annihilation. I know better. The scriptures do not affirm that theory. The scriptures clearly teach the ultimate reconciliation of all.

And while we cant debate anyone into changing their mind, that is not my reason for maintaining a discussion like this. The only reason to allow a conversation from someone who is promoting annihilation is to, in conversational tone but clear words, refute it. As long as that person appears open and reasonable in discussion it can continue, but I have no intention of making space for someone to teach on this site 1)annihilation or 2) a conditional salvation that can end in annihilation at any point in the ages to come.

I think we have always maintained that this is not a "debate all subjects" site, it is a site for the promotion of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ- the Good News of the salvation of all. But I do appreciate the opportunity to lay out in detail some of the verses that deal with annihilationism, because we more frequently discuss eternal torment in our discussions, but annihilationism, tho not as twisted as ET, is just as incorrect.

At least thats how I see it :)

[Patinak]

I have a quick question:

On this thread there is a lot of translation and interpretation of Hebrew words used in the gospels.  It is my understanding that most agree that the gospels and letters were either written in Greek, or that the earliest  manuscripts we have available are all in Greek. If this is in fact true, then my question is how do we know what Hebrew words were used?  I am not questioning that the words that have been presented are not being interpreted correctly, I'm just wondering the source of Hebrew words used in the gospels. 
Don't think that I am being flippant, if there are Hebrew manuscripts that are more aged than the Greek, and not just Hebrew translations of the Greek, I would like to be able to study them also.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,
Pat

p.s. Dec. 31, 2015 "[Note to self-keep love alive!]"
                            - marie glen

(Sorry I borrowed this Marie, it's just so good!)

[Cardinal]

Greg,
I think it is a rare occurrence that someone can be "debated" and change their position on a belief. It usually results in all parties being more entrenched in their original belief, and that is holding true in this thread.

I am glad you are here and I am glad you have found peace from your childhood fear instilled in you about eternity, and I'm glad you are still a believer, and not an ET proponent :)

The best thing to do is trust God, realize we are blind men describing and elephant (thanks Darryl :)) and thank God he won't roast anyone for eternity :). Pray. Pray for answers, for guidance, for peace, for love. Let God shape us.

The other eons can wait, today is what I focus on.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Thank you

:gimmefive:

Mark 10:27-31, Khr dyn bhun yShuEa uamr lhun luTh bny anSha hda la mShkKha ala luTh alha kl mdm gyr mShkKha luTh alha uShry kapa lmamr ha Khnn Shbqn kl mdm unqpnk Eana yShuEa uamr amyn amr ana lkun dlyTh anSh dShbq bTha au aKha au aKhuTha au aba au ama au anThTha au bnya au qurya mtlThy umtl sbrThy ula nqbl Khd bmaa hSha bzbna hna bTha uaKha uaKhuTha uamhTha ubnya uqurya Eam rdupya ubEalma daTha Khya dlEalm sgyaa dyn qdmya dnhuun aKhrya uaKhrya qdmya

"And Yahshua looked in them and said to them, 'To the sons of men this is not possible, but to God any/all whatever is possible to God. And began Kapa to say 'behold, we have left any/all whatever and followed you.' Answered Yahshua and said, 'Truly say I to you that there is no man who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields because of me and because of my gospel and not will receive one hundredfold now in this time/exchange houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the world/age to come life that is to a world/age.'  And many are first who will be last, and last first."

:cloud9: @ Greg.....just wondering what you mean by, Messiah is a wordplay for possibility?  :dontknow: Thanks in advance for explaining.... :Peace2:

In the language of the apostles...
mShykKha = possibilities
mShyKha = messiah

:cloud9: Thank you, I find that fascinating to ponder, ahem, the possibilities... :winkgrin:

[Cardinal]

I can see, Greg, what you're saying about possibility.. All things possible, of course :smile: for Him.. but not mandated.. Maybe this discussion would have been better on members only board .. don't know.. I'm fascinated by, I don't want to say quantum physics - I don't know much about that .. But I can't think of the right phrase! What it' called , and too lazy to look it up.. At the primordial? level of atoms? their behavior changes under observation / if someone is watching it/them.. possibilities, more for us mortals than we realize.. creative 'power' in our thoughts and words.. But I stray..

But I have a real passion for God's message ( and for truth) and am a simple gal and want with all my heart for the UR message to remain clear and simple, easy to see and grasp and understand.. I consider myself a real nerd about some things! :o

thanks :smile:

:cloud9: I remember reading that somewhere about the atoms, Marie....makes me wonder if there's some sort of undiscovered catalyst making them change, or if it truly is the Spirit of them reacting. Fascinating stuff.... :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I have a quick question:

On this thread there is a lot of translation and interpretation of Hebrew words used in the gospels.  It is my understanding that most agree that the gospels and letters were either written in Greek, or that the earliest  manuscripts we have available are all in Greek. If this is in fact true, then my question is how do we know what Hebrew words were used?  I am not questioning that the words that have been presented are not being interpreted correctly, I'm just wondering the source of Hebrew words used in the gospels. 
Don't think that I am being flippant, if there are Hebrew manuscripts that are more aged than the Greek, and not just Hebrew translations of the Greek, I would like to be able to study them also.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,
Pat

p.s. Dec. 31, 2015 "[Note to self-keep love alive!]"
                            - marie glen

(Sorry I borrowed this Marie, it's just so good!)

It is debatable whether most of the gospels were spoken or written in koine greek or hebrew aramaic.

The Septuagint(Greek OT)was translated between 300BCE and 100BCE, mainly because Alexandrian Jews spoke Greek.

The reason Hebrew is important, regardless, is that the scriptures come out of the Hebrew mindset. The purpose of translation is to represent what was in the speakers mind when he spoke as close as possible in contemporary language.

So when the Hebrew was translated into Greek, they didnt make notes as to what, for instance, "olam" meant in Hebrew- they just translated it to aion, but they werent Greeks,they were Jews and they thought like Jews. But when we look at aion today, we compare it to Aristotle and Plato, not to Isaiah and "olam", therefore missing- sometimes- the real meaning, or full meaning of the word. Sometimes it doesnt matter, i mean, a horse is a horse in any tongue. But sometimes it can applicable to a proper understanding.

Sheol is another good example. There is no way to get the meaning of Sheol from Hades(Greek) or Inferno(latin). One has to go back and look at Sheol to understand what Jesus and the apostles are saying whenever they use that word.

the Holy Spirit is able to explain it all without all that just through context... thats how i got UR, but it was nice as the study of Greek and Hebrew confirmed it for me and then I felt like I could teach it to anyone.

I usually use such explanations only when engaging in conversation with someone who is familiar with them.

[marie glen]

Amen, EW,

I especially like

Sheol is another good example. There is no way to get the meaning of Sheol from Hades(Greek) or Inferno(latin). One has to go back and look at Sheol to understand what Jesus and the apostles are saying whenever they use that word.

(also) the Holy Spirit is able to explain it all without all that just through context..

  :smile:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN EW.... :iagree: :thumbsup: