Luke 20:36 - what happens when preachers ignore the context in space & time

[greg]

Greg says: "I never eat anything that I don't purchase."  <-- by itself out of context in time and location, my statement sounds like I only eat food if I have purchased it myself, regardless of time or place.

But now read the larger context of my statement, "In the grocery store, I browse the bins filled with nuts and fruit.  I never eat anything that I don't purchase."

Understood?  Good.  Now you will see plainly why Luke 20:36 is commonly cited out of context for the proposition that angels cannot die.  In reality, the literal text clarifies the specific time and place that angels cannot die, which is in the resurrection or literally "the rising". 

Allow me to show this in detail... read Luke 20:36 out of context first so the time and location is beyond your horizon, "For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God..."

Hmm, sounds like immortality out-of-context right?  But look what happens when we read the verse in the chapter literally, so we can actually see the precise time and location specified...

Luke 20:28-38, "But some of the Sadducees came, those who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him, And they were saying to him, "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man dies and his brother has a wife without sons, his brother shall take his wife, and he shall raise up a son to his brother. But there were seven brothers and the first took a wife and he died without sons. And the second took her for his wife, and he died without sons. And the third again took her and thus also the seven of them, and they died and left no sons. And finally the woman died also. In the resurrection therefore, whose wife will she be, for the seven of them married her?" Yeshua said to them, "The sons of this world take women and women are given to men.  But those who are worthy for [/b]that world and for the resurrection from among the dead[/b] are not taking women, neither are women taking men. For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God because they are the children of the resurrection. But that the dead rise, Moses also declared, for he recounts at the bush, when THE LORD said, 'The God of Abraham and the God of Isaaq and the God of Jaqob.' But he was not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all of them were alive to him."

Indeed, there are many examples where angels choose to leave the rising and engage in the falling.  And in that falling, they do indeed die.  Jude 6, Genesis 6, Revelation 12.

Secondly, the context in Luke 20:36 specifies that the reason the angels cannot die is because they are "sons of god".  There are several examples in the bible where a being can be a "son of god" and be mortal. See e.g., Hosea 1:10.

Third, reading Luke 20:36 to allow everlasting torment puts the verse directly at odds with Rev 20:14 regarding the second death. 

However, reading both verses literally creates no conflict between the verses and remains consistent with the entire bible that teaches that the wage of sin is death and that wickedness is utterly extinguished. 

So Luke 20:36 is another example emphasizing that we need to read verses in their entirety and not just snippets of verses, because ignoring even a single word can change an entire sentence.  For it is very different to say, "angels cannot die ever" compared to "angels are not able to die in the rising".  The first sentence is all encompassing, ever, whereas the second-sentence refers to a limited and defined experience, rising.   Again, compare 'falling angels' who do die, and do so repeatedly in the bible. 

The biblical principle here is the principle of exchange.  In falling to lower dimensions, or fleshly bodies, angels do not die in that one process.  But once they have become flesh after that process, they can die. 

What about nature?  Electromagnetism cannot be destroyed, but it can be converted to energy inside a plant, and that plant can be destroyed.  When the electromagnetism is converted to energy in the plant, we do not say that the electromagnetism died.  When the plant is placed inside a furnace, we do say that it is utterly extinguished.  It would defy logic and language to say the plant experiences everlasting torment in the furnace.  Incidentally, it also defies logic and language to say that the original electromagnetism that converted to plant energy is released in the furnace and trapped there as everlasting fuel for the fire. 

[sheila]

your still measuring the old HEAVENS[angels]   and  it's apples and oranges..the NEW CREATION includes NEW HEAVENS and NEW EARTH

  now the old heavens and earth are passing away.temporal...

  and the angels/demons only are judged unto the LOF second death..all men are to die ONCE" for they have been reconciled.

fallen angels fall are bottomless[abyss] until their  2nd resurrection/released from abyss to go forth unto their doom/judgement in the

LOF  Earth destroyed by water/flood and fire[both related to angels not keeping their proper positions/as in the days of Noah] in this

old heavens earth which were corrupted


  the old heavens roll up like a scroll...the angel's fall is like the fibonacci spiral......they are held there until their [release from

abyss]when they go forth unto their final judgement[doom] in the LOF...only those of second resurrection  experience 2nd death


  man is appointed to die once..then the judgement/first resurrection..ascent[tornado cloud/spiral fibonacci..glory cloud/Elijah taken up in a whirlwind

  Jesus received in clouds/ ascending and descending of many..rise and fall..a sign spoken against.......child caught up to throne/in

clouds...

    what comes out of the Eternal one..becomes temporal[time/space related] what returns into the eternal one becomes eternal[out of

context of time and space-the very heavens can not contain Him]


  the second resurrection is only the rising  out of the abyss[Enoch spoke of of the judgement on the angels..the watchers and their sons

  rocks placed over them/Dudael...those under earth...see how far the fall..their rise is only unto the earth..to go forth on it to their

doom ...a return unto the dust only...not a return unto the Father[spirit]


  Genesis ch 3  serpents portion dust v 17 And unto Adam,he said 'Because thou has listened unto the voice of thy wife and eaten

of the tree of which I commanded you not..'cursed is the ground for thy sake......for dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return'

  first Adam..image of the corrupt/serpent/fallen angels

  Last Adam quickening spirit......I am returning unto My Father and your Father..received up in clouds.....

  all men bear both images..the corrupt one who returns to the dust of the earth...and the incorrupt one who returns unto the Father.

    Jacob/Israel was not named 'supplanter' just because he supplanted Esau of the birthright as the firstborn on earth......

  but because of the congregation of the firstborn in Heaven's birthright...God supps with and  plants the new heavens.......

   Abraham's children as the sands and stars..ones of the dust..ones of the heavens.....

[greg]

...


  the old heavens roll up like a scroll...the angel's fall is like the fibonacci spiral......they are held there until their [release from

abyss]when they go forth unto their final judgement[doom] in the LOF...only those of second resurrection  experience 2nd death


  ...


  the second resurrection is only the rising  out of the abyss[Enoch spoke of of the judgement on the angels..the watchers and their sons

  rocks placed over them/Dudael...those under earth...see how far the fall..their rise is only unto the earth..to go forth on it to their

doom ...a return unto the dust only...not a return unto the Father[spirit]

...

The bible does not associate the Fibonnaci spiral (golden ratio) with the fall of angels.  In nature, that spiral/ratio provides evidence of sustainable life and good seed.  So it is not correct to associate it with fallen angels whose seed (children) did not survive.

You also mentioned one of the books found among the Dead Sea Scrolls: the Book of Enoch.  I've reviewed the Aramaic fragments carefully as transcribed by Knibb.   Just like the gospel, in the Book of Enoch it is said that only the Creator lives indefinitely; but the wicked are utterly destroyed. There is no amyn ("perpetual") for the wicked.  All punishments in the Book of Enoch are described in finite terms, days, years, an age, or in rare instances for certain fallen angels... ages.  But the text never describes punishment as infinite (everlasting time) or eternal (outside the time dimension).  Punishment is exclusively defined with finite words in the apocryphal Book of Enoch.

It is easy to find English translators who speak of 'infinite torment' in Enoch.  Fortunately though, these modern English mistranslations are so blatant that anyone with basic logic can expose 'infinite torment' as a false teaching, as we see for example in Enoch 10:5, where Azazel is cast into the desert 'forever' until the day of great judgment when he is cast into the fire. 

Anyone using basic logic can see that translation of 10:5 is illogical -  how is a creature cast into a desert for infinity, and then later destroyed?  The translation doesn't make sense because it mistranslates the word Ealm.  Fortunately, the original text of Enoch does make sense, because the word Ealm does not mean forever, but rather it means age/world.  So the literal text is saying that Azazel is cast into the desert for an age, until the day of great judgment when he is destroyed by fire.  Thus, Azazel suffers finite punishment, and then utter destruction.  Problem solved with literal text.

So we can see from the ancient literal text that finite torment is a proper teaching, and infinite torment is a false teaching.  Infinite torment does not come from a literal reading of the text.

Indeed, we continually see in Enoch references in context to the finite nature of saga and punishment:
5:5 – years of your life
5:5 - 'years of your destruction shall be multiplied' (how does one multiply by infinity?)
5:9 – 'they shall complete the number of days of their life'
9:4 – 'master of the ages'
10:5 – Azazel is cast into the desert 'forever' until the day of great judgment when he is cast into the fire
10:10 – eternal life or 500 years
10:12-14 – forever until consummated in 70 generations?
14:5 – all the days of the world
15:6 – immortality qualified by generations of the world
16:1 – age shall be consummated
18:16 – stars bound until guilt is consummated in 10,000 years.  See also 21:6
19:1 – judgment results in end of the being

I could go on, but you get the picture.  Infinite torment does not come from a literal reading of the text.  Rather, it comes from mistranslation.

[sheila]

well..the fall/abyss is infinite in the sense that there is no recovery..but a  spiraling down with a consummation of destruction/end.

      Archus come down heavy and red as the  foundation of the lower things.........do you not find that more than coincidental that

  the angels sold their birthright for a bowl of the red? Forsook it to take wives/daughters of men.?Not that I agree with your

following of synchronicity as a guide. Holy spirit  will lead into all truth..co-incidences may lead us to make false

assumptions[circumstantial evidence]

   and as for rising..the four winds.....form  the spiral for bringing the wheat in the barn and seperating the chaff..../burning it


  what give you the idea that I believed in infinite torment.?.

[greg]

...
  what give you the idea that I believed in infinite torment.?.

I know you don't believe in infinite torment.   :gimmefive: 

I was referring to the general 'you' (i.e., readers who find this forum post from wherever they have been traveling online - that's how I found Tentmaker years ago, and it helped change my life).  Lots of people stumble in the Book of Enoch, and they look for answers online.  Personally, I was never satisfied with commentaries or even translations of Enoch.  I had to read the actual transcription of dead sea scroll fragments myself.  And I'm glad I did.  Due to the tattered condition of ancient codices, English translations of the Book of Enoch come from several different codices in three different languages: Aramaic, Greek, and Ge'ez (Ethiopic).  So the book of Enoch is pieced together today like a puzzle. 

Enoch 18:16-19:1, "And he was angry with them and bound them until the time of the consummation of their sin in the year of mystery.  And Uriel said to me 'The spirits of the angels who were promiscuous with the women will stand here; and they, assuming many forms, made men unclean and will lead men astray so that they sacrifice to demons as gods – that is, until the great judgment day on which they will be judged so that an end will be made of them."

[marie glen]

I'm wondering...

The biblical principle here is the principle of exchange.  In falling to lower dimensions, or fleshly bodies, angels do not die in that one process.  But once they have become flesh after that process, they can die.

where, I'm wondering, is this in the bible?
"flesh" to my understanding :smile: is not "matter" as the gnostics thought - they thought the whole problem was "matter" but the whole problem is not "matter" but "missing the mark", aka imperfection, aka sin... falling short.. "the wages of sin ("missing the mark") is death"

The problem not being what God created - "behold" He said "it is all good" after the six days of creating.. things did not, imo, fall into a lower state or dimension.. He took Eve out of Adam's side and rib.. God's creation because mankind was made to dominate it, has lost the liberty of the sons of God, i.e. becoming subject to preditorness, death.. etc. But the creation itself is still a very wondrous thing..

The problem is the fallen "nature"  -  the flesh as denoting mere human nature.. the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God..

When the plant is placed inside a furnace, we do say that it is utterly extinguished.  It would defy logic and language to say the plant experiences everlasting torment in the furnace

     :laughing7: :thumbsup:

[sheila]

well good grief!   :laugh:  :thumbsup:

[darryl]

when preachers ignore the context in space & time they make huge mistakes in crucial areas..they go off base into a dreamland of their own making ..they become artful clowns dealing in delusion  :icon_jokercolor: :icon_jokercolor: :icon_jokercolor: :icon_jokercolor: at the end of the day leading their 'sheeple' into error and confusion  :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

[greg]

I'm wondering...

The biblical principle here is the principle of exchange.  In falling to lower dimensions, or fleshly bodies, angels do not die in that one process.  But once they have become flesh after that process, they can die.

where, I'm wondering, is this in the bible?

The principle of exchange is zbna and Khlp.  It's found throughout the literal bible text, and is especially prominent in the way that sin is reconciled through sacrifice.

And then regarding the angels as flesh, see Genesis 6 for example.  The fallen angels mated with women and were then destroyed.  "And God seeth the earth, and lo, it hath been corrupted, for all flesh hath corrupted its way on the earth....And I, lo, I am bringing in the deluge of waters on the earth to destroy all flesh, in which [is] a living spirit, from under the heavens; all that [is] in the earth doth expire." 

If the angels weren't flesh, how did they mate with women?  And after they mate with women, what does YHWH do to them and their offspring?  Jude is helpful here as well.

[marie glen]

Thanks, Greg, I know the offspring perished.. and then it seems the, able to cross into flesh or mate with humans, was done away with.. I don't know if the angels perished or not :smile: (i assume angels can perish, as to me, Imperfection = dying/'mortal'.)

What I was wondering about is the idea of "falling into flesh" not so much as "the lower nature" and "unlawful wants" etc.. The gnostics thought it was "the flesh" as in matter, that was 'wrong' - that creation had fallen into matter, and so even things like eating were considered evil.

I may have misunderstood your reference to 'falling into flesh' - perhaps you meant it as only applying to these (criminal) angels.. and then I wouldn't think of it so much as falling into being flesh creatures, as voluntarily leaving their first place and voluntarily breaking God's laws/ways..

And of course, some folks don;t think the references are about angels at all, but about the children of Seth as opposed to the children of Cain.. and "Giants" may have been simply as "giants among men" in renown, such as Nimrod later was..

The gnostic sects, for that reason spanned from the very ascetic to the grossly libertine ("which thing I hate" He said about the Nicolaitans, which makes me think they, along with the 'Jezebel' sect were of the grossly libertine mindset).. after all, I guess they figured, if all bodily doing and function was evil, what the hey..

..thanks, God bless! :Peace2:

[marie glen]

Enoch 18:16-19:1

I've read some extra biblical things too but as soon as I read anything that contradicts the Bible as we have it, i lost all interest..

I only mention it, and most humbly, because i find myself thinking that on this Universal Redemption/Reconciliation forum, using extra biblical sources would perhaps only convince an e.t. believer - perhaps turning u.r. seeker - that u.r. is a cult,etc. and not biblical at all.. Which it being biblical is, I believe, the very thing we are trying to prove (support) :smile:

Of course I do know Jude quoted some words of Enoch, but we don't know for sure it was from a book or if so, the same book.. and Enoch was pretty ancient.. way before Moses..

[eaglesway]

Hi Greg, 

I dont disagree with the contextual point but I do disagree(in a civilized friendly manner :o) with quoting jude verse 6 and Gen4 for evidence that fallen angels die.

I read the sentence like this

"The sons of this world take women and women are given to men.  But those who are worthy for [/b]that world and for the resurrection from among the dead[/b] are not taking women, neither are women taking men.

....the Sadducees were trying to set Jesus up with a silly question to make their point that there is no resurrection. They weren't asking an honest question but a purposely satiric one- since they did not believe in the resurrection. Jesus is responding by ignoring the specific points of their question and stating some general things about the world to come and the state of being in it for the resurrected(cuz thats how humans get there, via resurrection). He likened the state of being of resurrected humans to that of angels.

For neither can they die again, for they are like The Angels, and they are the children of God because they are the children of the resurrection.

To me it is clear that He is saying angels and children of resurrection do not die. This is not a serious issue to me either way, but thats how it reads for me. I dont see how any of the verses you quoted lead to a foundation for "angels dying", but I am open to other possibilities, I just dont see it in those scriptures- I see the opposite. Jude says the angels who left their proper domain are bound in "aidos" chains reserved for the  judgment of the great Day.

As I see it they are being held in an aionian holding cell precisely because they dont die as humans die(cease from consciousness). In any case I see nothing about them dying in Jude 6 or Gen. 4.

.....and they are the children of God because they are the children of the resurrection.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

They cannot die again because they are like angels and they are children(teknon) of the resurrection.

Then Jesus finishes sealing His point that there is a resurrection and YHWH is the God of all the living.

"But that the dead rise, Moses also declared, for he recounts at the bush, when THE LORD said, 'The God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.' But he was not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all of them were alive to him."

[rosered]

  There is also a very simple and child like   answer ,  that has helped me divide  rightly    what is above and what is below    ,a basic division

you are gods[spirits] breath  and will die like men [flesh] powerless    , always the spirit or breath goes back to God who gave it ...

Angels are  spirits   as messengers  , they   relay  by thoughts and  dreams  and speak   from the   Holy Spirit or spirits that have been scattered  out , from the SPIRIT they come  from   to mankind for those directly or indirectly serving GOD , they all do serve GOD in one form or the other  obedient or disobedient   GOD IS ALWAYS THE POWER  for which they serve HIM

we are  all judged by what we do with the breath of life those things done in the flesh  by what ever spirit we are of ....   

GOD IS SPIRIT  everything  come from the   ONE AND ONLY HOLY /PURE  SPIRIT    expressed as LOVE   and TRUTH  and  consuming Fire    . not just a fire but Consuming Fire
  the rising and falling of angels  messengers  for me has always pertains to the VOICE    ......   The Voice of many waters    ABOVE ...pure truth    clear as crystal   HOLY ONES

  or the voices below    that are earthly sensual and devilish  and muddy  , like dragon floods of lies and filth of the flesh  mixing  of the two   with the many seas [ voices , tongues and nations ]  of  the dead...

  the tongues of man and the tongues of angels     being messengers
JESUS CHRIST BEING THE WORD OF GOD   / NEVER SPOKE from Himself but only what the FATHER  TOLD HIM TO SPEAK TRUTH  AND ABOVE  [HOLY] WATERS ,,,,    these have been separated       from the foundation of the worlds   above and below ,, worlds  a part  [GEN1 ] 

  that expanse /firmament/ canopy / vault  is called'' heaven ''or sky   and the sun and moon and stars   are set in their places   naturally  as also in the Spiritually

  the rise and fall of messengers as angels   are   because JESUS CHRIST IS THE DIVIDING LINE /WORD OF GOD    that many rise and fall   because of   THE WORD OF GOD
        and those voices   from the  breath of God    being spirits are the distinction   between the waters above and below     to me ...

Only  GOD can  and does and will   determine the outcome       , the consuming fire   drys up those   waters/voices  to nothing  and has the Power to make   all things new   ,

There is a scripture that says the earth swallowed up  all  the  flood waters  [ I can see this as the old deluge ]    and is being  consumed by the HOLY SPIRIT and fire   as to  making  a dry and barren place  earth  and    valley of dry bones   the only   waters of refreshing will be from ABOVE   those voices  of many waters that are crystal clear ,, pure  cool waters   when God breaths the BREATH /WIND back into them   old and dry  and consumed  by the fire of Gods wrath  when   the WORD was kindled in judgement   fire against   those that oppose and dry them up in the earth    [Luke 12;49]

  The Word goes as deep as can be  as oceans or    can be as shallow  a a puddle  in the hot sun
  All understanding comes from God , the deceived and the deceiver are His  , WISDOM IS HIS to give and keep ,     all IS HIS   and always was and always will be all GLORY belongs to GOD ..

[rosered]

what happens when preachers ignore the context in space & time

  I hope to simplify   this  answer   to that    question ..  there is a simplicity   in Christ  , the WORD OF GOD   is solid as a rock  and impossible  to ignore   

and many stumble because of   the TRUTH ... I am included ..
But when the Holt Spirit makes you aware you cannot ignore   the Light that shines out of the darkness of our own hearts ..

EVERYTHING GOD EVER DONE   was purposed in His OWN WILL  and nothing can ever change that , no matter how much one thinks or tries too
  It is gone zip , just as it come   , for a brief  second  ''poof''  man has always clinged to mans ideas about God    searching in vain for hIM , Saying I have found truth

When you quit seeing Jesus  Christ in all these other ways    and SEE HIM  AS GODS WORD   OF TRUTH  ONLY    , it gets  so much simpler and easier to see GODS PLAN unfold   

  JESUS CHRIST /WORD OF GOD  was    just that WORD   for that time   in every man  and was represented as   out of the  MOUTH OF GOD will the truth be established  to the world    from heaven       , HIS VOICE   , even as Adam heard it in the garden  in the cool of the  DAY  , that Day ...
as the DAY   heated

Jesus Christ / WORD OF GOD come  in the Fulness of   time   as a covering the grace of God  [  Heat of the Day ]  and has gotten Hotter  every hour

I think of GODS  MERCY    as being tender  towards us all   and expects  nothing in the flesh is never pleased Him  , but in Gods Love  and  perfect   desire   looked at the suffering in the days of our flesh being so merciful as He is   from the days  of Adam  being 930 years   to suffer in death   began to shorten  our days

to    David being  70 years or 80 by even more grace  by the  covenant of salt   to David being humility     seeing the suffering in the flesh and  causing the spirit to suffer   and fail in  man  ,  and thought mankind has suffered enough  ,     If a thousand   years is just one day to God     than Adam did not even live one day   by GODS    eyes and wisdom   so we look at how very short  a time  70 or  80 years is    , it is just an hour , the last hour    and by       Sending His  Son / WORD OF GOD       in that fullness of time   as a  covering and to keep them from that hour of trial   that the whole world  experiences

When you consider    that Love and  mercy of GOD towards  us       the tears should  flow   , if the life of man is just one hour  in Gods eyes , a breath     that is  such unconditional love   expressed   beyond any human  understanding   that suffering   was  hardly   much at all
  So when   GODS WORD  was sent     TO US   , Well   this means  to me ,,,it was HIS    GLORY AS ONLY HE CAN DO  , saving us from the heat of the wrath as this world is on fire and is being dissolved
proof to me  GOD IS LOVE  AND TRUTH    AND SO MUCH BIGGER and more than when I first started to see Him  in all HIS BEAUTY  :HeartThrob:

[GodIsLove]

what happens when preachers ignore the context in space & time

  I hope to simplify   this  answer   to that    question ..  there is a simplicity   in Christ  , the WORD OF GOD   is solid as a rock  and impossible  to ignore   

and many stumble because of   the TRUTH ... I am included ..
But when the Holt Spirit makes you aware you cannot ignore   the Light that shines out of the darkness of our own hearts ..

EVERYTHING GOD EVER DONE   was purposed in His OWN WILL  and nothing can ever change that , no matter how much one thinks or tries too
  It is gone zip , just as it come   , for a brief  second  "poof"  man has always clinged to mans ideas about God    searching in vain for hIM , Saying I have found truth

When you quit seeing Jesus  Christ in all these other ways    and SEE HIM  AS GODS WORD   OF TRUTH  ONLY    , it gets  so much simpler and easier to see GODS PLAN unfold   

  JESUS CHRIST /WORD OF GOD  was    just that WORD   for that time   in every man  and was represented as   out of the  MOUTH OF GOD will the truth be established  to the world    from heaven       , HIS VOICE   , even as Adam heard it in the garden  in the cool of the  DAY  , that Day ...
as the DAY   heated

Jesus Christ / WORD OF GOD come  in the Fulness of   time   as a covering the grace of God  [  Heat of the Day ]  and has gotten Hotter  every hour

I think of GODS  MERCY    as being tender  towards us all   and expects  nothing in the flesh is never pleased Him  , but in Gods Love  and  perfect   desire   looked at the suffering in the days of our flesh being so merciful as He is   from the days  of Adam  being 930 years   to suffer in death   began to shorten  our days

to    David being  70 years or 80 by even more grace  by the  covenant of salt   to David being humility     seeing the suffering in the flesh and  causing the spirit to suffer   and fail in  man  ,  and thought mankind has suffered enough  ,     If a thousand   years is just one day to God     than Adam did not even live one day   by GODS    eyes and wisdom   so we look at how very short  a time  70 or  80 years is    , it is just an hour , the last hour    and by       Sending His  Son / WORD OF GOD       in that fullness of time   as a  covering and to keep them from that hour of trial   that the whole world  experiences

When you consider    that Love and  mercy of GOD towards  us       the tears should  flow   , if the life of man is just one hour  in Gods eyes , a breath     that is  such unconditional love   expressed   beyond any human  understanding   that suffering   was  hardly   much at all
  So when   GODS WORD  was sent     TO US   , Well   this means  to me ,,,it was HIS    GLORY AS ONLY HE CAN DO  , saving us from the heat of the wrath as this world is on fire and is being dissolved
proof to me  GOD IS LOVE  AND TRUTH    AND SO MUCH BIGGER and more than when I first started to see Him  in all HIS BEAUTY  :HeartThrob:

Beautiful, Rose  :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen.  :iagree:

[greg]

...
I dont see how any of the verses you quoted lead to a foundation for "angels dying", but I am open to other possibilities, I just dont see it in those scriptures- ...

This one seems pretty clear...

Ezekiel 28:16-19, brb rklThk mlu Thukd Khms uThKhta uaKhllk mhr alhym uabdk krub hskk mThuk abny aSh gbh lbk bypyk ShKhTh KhkmThk Eal ypEaThk Eal arTs hShlkThyk lpny mlkym nThThyk lrauh bk mrb Eunyk bEaul rklThk KhllTh mqdShyk uauTsa aSh mThukk hya aklThk uaThnk lapr Eal harTs lEayny kl rayk kl yudEayk bEamym Shmmu Ealyk blhuTh hyyTh uaynk Ead Eaulm

"In the abundance of your merchandise they filled the middle of you with violence and you have sinned. And I will cast you as profane from the mountain of Elohim, and destroy you, you covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.  Was lifted up your heart because of your beauty.  You have corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness.  Upon the ground I will cast you.  Before kings I will lay you, that they may look in you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you have defiled your sanctuaries.  And I will bring forth a fire from the midst.  It shall devour you. And I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of any who see.  All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at the terror you shall be.  And you are not age-during."

[eaglesway]

Wasnt that a prophecy to the king of tyre?

[eaglesway]

Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!

Do you think this is literal?

[greg]

Wasnt that a prophecy to the king of tyre?

Actually no; see the context in Ezekiel 28:13, "You were in Eden, the garden of God..."

Some of the beginning of Ezekiel 28 is (as you suggested) about a rich king of Tyre ruling at that time... but the chapter eventually expands to a broader view as it reveals the real power behind that king.  Satan had a greater throne in Tyre than the king of Tyre.

I wouldn't claim to understand the way that Satan works, but apparently it involves some indwelling and control of creatures from time-to-time.  So we focus on any one of those controlled creatures, we miss the bigger picture of what Satan really is.   And again, I personally don't know what Satan really is.  But I would venture that his kingdom is larger than Tyre at this point.   

Tyre was great example though at the time: a wealthy port city in the shadow of Mt. Hermon.  That modus operandi is quite telling.

[sheila]

I see it more as the image of the corrupt one/like a garment over Adam and Eve...and all men in the corrupt image[including king of Tyre]

  even unto the disobedient angels of satan...even the wicked contrast/negative that fights against the very will of God.  And yet,

that He even tolerates such is for His own purpose..a negative contrast teaching tool unto His creation/creature.


  Unbelief and a single act of disobedience set the mechanism into action of a negative contrast lesson..that we be turned from our unbelief

and disobedience..unto the good and perfect will of God unto all His creation.


   that there will be an end of the negative is assured[I will not always find fault..for then the very spirit[of love] would fail before me]

   

[eaglesway]

Wasnt that a prophecy to the king of tyre?

Actually no; see the context in Ezekiel 28:13, "You were in Eden, the garden of God..."

Some of the beginning of Ezekiel 28 is (as you suggested) about a rich king of Tyre ruling at that time... but the chapter eventually expands to a broader view as it reveals the real power behind that king.  Satan had a greater throne in Tyre than the king of Tyre.

I wouldn't claim to understand the way that Satan works, but apparently it involves some indwelling and control of creatures from time-to-time.  So we focus on any one of those controlled creatures, we miss the bigger picture of what Satan really is.   And again, I personally don't know what Satan really is.  But I would venture that his kingdom is larger than Tyre at this point.   

Tyre was great example though at the time: a wealthy port city in the shadow of Mt. Hermon.  That modus operandi is quite telling.

Ok, so even if we look at the prophecy as speaking to Satan at a higher level, it is by no means a conclusive proof text for angels dying- not that I have a personal issue with YHWH destroying Satan.... I really dont. But we have to look at all the scriptures on a topic. There are several places where the scriptures speak metaphprically of destruction, but it does not mean eternal destruction. A good example is Sodom and Gomorah. The smoke of their torment rises olam, but according to Ezekiel, they will be restored.

"Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity(Ez 16),"

Altho God has destroyed Sodom and Samaria out of the world age, He will restore them at some point in the ages to come because he is restoring all things, the "whole creation"(Romans 8)

This is also evident in Romans chapters 9-11, of Israel, who have become enemies for the world age, but will be restored at some future point, "Therefore all Israel shall be saved", because "God has shut up all in disobedience that He might have mercy on all", and their judgment abounds in our mercy as our mercy will abound in their restoration. "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things".

So in Ezekiel 28 we see the one who was in Eden, and he is told, "you are not olam" which I would read, "you are not, olam"- because "he was and will be but is not"- it is the nature of Adam, and of the adversary also, that they are never in the present as God is- the "I Am" who was and is and will be. Satan, as the deceiver is the "I'm Not"- like the beast of the Abyss, who was and is not and will be and goes to destruction.(Rev 17:8).

Always in the past or in the future, never in the NOW- TODAY if you hear my voice. Ever learning never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

In the beginning the earth was without form and void. As are we until the word of God comes in and says "let there be light". Then the form of Christ begins, old things pass away, behold, all things become new.

Surely you can see, at least theoretically, Greg, that God's plan does not end in destruction for so many. They are "apollumi"-lost, in perdition, ruined, for the age, and for some - also the age to come, but not throughout all ages. The only thing that you will see attributed to all ages is the glory of God.

"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory through the ages..

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"(Rom 3)

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.(1 Cor 6)

You might notice that in Colossians 1 and in Ephesians 1&2 and in Romans 11 where Paul speaks clearly of the eventual salvation of all, he goes out of His way in each case to remind us we are sinners saved by grace!

example 1 Col

19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death

example 2 Eph 2

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


Example 3 Romans 11

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.....

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes that could not see
    and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.".............

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. ....

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved........

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
    How unsearchable his judgments,
    and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Who has ever given to God,
    that God should repay them?"
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
    To him be the glory forever! Amen.

This is God's plan for Israel, and as well- His plan for all mankind- as Abraham is the father of many nations and Jesus is the savior of the world.

Israel is judged in this age- they are not olam. But they will be olam because when the ages conclude God will be all in all. That is His kind intention, His plan for the ages. his ways are higher than our ways. His plan does not end in destruction and defeat.

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Excellent  :thumbsup: :iagree:

[sheila]

disobedient angels..into LOF second death....maybe that is what is required to reconcile all things both in heaven and earth?

  maybe whatever they are bound with[disobedience/negative contrast] until judgement..is burnt/loosened iin a furnace of aflliction

also.  :dontknow:   they can die=LOF 2nd death..when the elements[thoughts of God] become intensely hot and melt like wax/seal

   surely the disobedient angels are prodigals..as we,too. maybe angelic celestial flesh can not boast before the Lord either?

    but..I am of the opinion..that they must have left their dwelling in heaven[house/incorruptible body] behind when they descended

and took the daughters of men..however many they chose...selling the birthright for a bowl of the 'Red'Adam............

  but if it is 'spirit' and hath not flesh and blood..neither angel nor man...then it is the negative contrast spirit that is in operation

that has caused both angels and men to fall..and is a mere tool.

  all Israel is not Israel..so,too...with God's angelic sons..and only what is of Him will remain..when He has done all His work on the Holy

city.

[jabcat]

:cloud9: Excellent  :thumbsup: :iagree:

:2thumbs: