Christ's use of Gehenna

[rosered]

(revelation is a fire in my heart and mind for many years now.. man's world is built on sand.. if the whole world repented and turned to YHWH.. would be a different culmination of man's doings upon earth.. but I honestly cannot see it happening)

  :HeartThrob:

  Awesome !!  Amen Marie !


  and Thanks John
AMEN !!!!   so much  more ..........
  I find it hard to say   in words what really is burning in our hearts already !!  so impossible to express ..  GOD KNOWS    :HeartThrob:

  :grouppray:

[marie glen]

Awesome post Eaglesway!  :dsunny: :cloud9:

Especially,

..and one day the heavens will roll back like a scroll and His glory will flood the earth and we will be revealed with Him in glory.

I believe the body will be unified in one Spirit on the earth before He comes, a giant messenger standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea, head in the heavens, clothed in the clouds, uttering 7 thunders with a little book in His hands. A little book bearing the everlasting gospel. The euaggelion. The good news.

    :Chinscratch: hmmm, possibly (to my way of thinking) the "sealing of the foreheads of God's servants" in Rev chapter 7.
...Everyone notices the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel ("you will not see me again until you say, blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" .."if their falling away is salvation what is their gathering in, but life from the dead?"/resurrection,etc.)
...but folks don't notice the great multitude/crowd "from every tribe, people and nation.." (the gathering in of Israel, aka, sealing the foreheads/minds of Israel follows, for the most part, that of the sealing of the foreheads of God's servants who are gentiles..
because.. last minute stuff..
"And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and" (by then) "have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 12:17, last verse. (Chapter 12 is an insert, as is ch 13, complete on their own.) - "And the nations gathered them to Armegeddon, behold I come as a thief, and they gather to armegeddon" (gathered in bundles).. Rev 16:14,15,16 "He cometh with His angels.. who gather His elect.. and in fire.."

sealed - 1. great crowd all nations, tongues, peoples..
             2. of tribes of Israel

seal on forehead to go with seal on the heart which makes us cry abba father.. I like to think of the seal on the forehead as 100% clarity.. no beam nor splinter in the perception.. no spot nor wrinkle in what we believe/know..

:Peace2: very :goodpost: :goodpost:   

case in point -

"a giant messenger standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea, head in the heavens, clothed in the clouds, uttering 7 thunders with a little book in His hands. A little book bearing the everlasting gospel. The euaggelion. The good news."

UR! ...the 100% good news.. 100% true gospel

P.S.... Rose, God does know!  :girlheart: :friendstu:

[GodIsLove]

Marie, EW, Rose  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[joeteekay]

Hi Kate,
You might find this helpful:

Many think of Gehenna or Lake of Fire as having the same meaning as the orthodox Christian teaching of Hell. Most in this forum recognize that Hell is not a place of endless torment for the wicked. Rather it is simply the grave (from the Greek word Hades meaning the unseen or imperceptible).  Interestingly the words Hell, Gehenna and Lake of Fire are not describing the same thing (IMO). They are different and are not interchangeable. Gehenna is not Hell and Hell is not Gehenna!  So why did Jesus talk about Gehenna and what did He mean when He used the word in the gospels (good news)?  Most Christians think Gehenna is a place of eternal torment in a literal unquenchable fire.

While nearly all "orthodox" authorities of eminence concede that Sheol and Hades do not denote a place of torment, most of those who accept the doctrine of endless torment claim that Gehenna does convey that meaning.

But no such meaning resides in the word, nor is there a shred of evidence that it ever conveyed such an idea until many years after Christ.
The word Gehenna has nothing to do with a place of fiery torment for lost souls as in commonly believed.  The world gehenna is not even mentioned in the Old Testament and endless torment is nowhere to be found in its pages.

In the King James Version the translators decided to translate the Greek word Gehenna as Hell or hell fire.  In this popular version, as well as others,  the Greek word Gehenna which stands for the Hebrew word "GeHinnom is translated twelve times as hell or hell fire?"  Does Gehenna fit the description of the Christian hell? NO!  Bible  students knows that Gehenna, spelled GeHinnom or GayHinnom according to Hebrew, is a real historical and geographical location just southwest off of Jerusalem's walls. 
In the Greek New Testament text the Scriptures that mention Gehenna are only found in the first three gospels and in the epistle of James.

Jesus referred to it 11 times and James once?  Only Jesus and James mentioned it.  So why didn't the Apostles including Paul NOT mention Gehenna in their writings?  Did they miss something?
Amazingly, the word is nowhere used in the book of Acts. Luke recorded thirty years of preaching by Paul and other Apostles in the book of Acts, yet the word Gehenna is not used once. Not only does Acts not record any of the teaching on Gehenna, it doesn't even mention the word!  Paul said he declared the whole counsel of God".

Christ reintroduces the Old Testament valley of Hinnom into His New Testament teaching, but His use of this Old Testament symbol of evil, idol worship, and slaughter has nothing to do with the definition of a Christian hell.

Whatever Jesus meant when He spoke of Gehenna fire, it certainly was not what the pagans of the past or the Christians of the last five centuries mean by the doctrine of "hell."  His teaching on this has much to do with living a Christian life and Judgment.  Each time Jesus used the word Gehenna it was in the context of judgement.

The purpose of Jesus was to show how specific and demanding is Christianity and how narrow is the path.  God judges the motives of the heart.  Christianity, that even if one is contemptuous towards another, he will be judged by Christian principles of love, as "he who hates his brother has already committed murder in his heart."

Of course, those who contend that much of what is written in the Scriptures is figurative rather than literal will be accused of "spiritualizing away" the Scriptures.  Certainly the case with Jesus use of the wore Gehenna.   Sure many people have said that parables are to be taken literally. What they don't realize is that the words of our Saviour have a deeper spiritual meaning than just taking them as literal.  The words Jesus spoke are spiritual.

John_6:63  ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The Twelve Gehenna Passages

The First Use of Gehenna

Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire (the Greek - Gehenna of fire).

Jesus did not use the term "hell fire" in this verse, He used the Greek word Gehenna of fire for the first occurrence in the gospels. Should we assume that if someone calls a person a fool the result would be thrown into a literal eternal hell fire of torment?  No it does not say that.? 
1. Whosoever is angry without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment
2. Whosoever says Raca ( Chaldee - worthless ) shall be in danger of the council ( Sandheidren judgement).
3. Whosoever says you a fool shall be in danger of Gehenna fire.
Please notice that these three instances refer to a judgement situation. 
Being angry with someone can result in judgement.
Calling someone worthless can result in judgement.
Calling someone a fool can result in judgement (in this case God's chastising judgment which is Gehenna judgement).

Mans judgement is not the same as Gods judgement.  God judges and chastens by spiritual fire.  What is spiritual fire you ask?  We will look at that in another article.  Gehenna is NOT eternal damnation in a fabled hell fire.

Obviously there is a problem with the Christian teaching of eternal hell fire? Does not this statement by Jesus prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that whatever Gehenna fire is, its judgement is not extraordinarily worse than being in danger of a council of judges, or by a local judicial court.

Being angry with anyone, calling a person Raca, calling another a fool, are for all practical purposes almost the same. They are all sins against others and they must be repented of or they will all be brought into appropriate judgements.  This is one of the primary lessons we learn when we understand the meaning of Christ's use of Gehenna of fire in the words He spoke.  Gehenna fire is a vital ingredient in the process of repenting and overcoming sin, being chastened by God and growing as a Christian. Also we need to realize that Jesus said shall be in danger.  He did not say that those judgments would occur.  But if one is not mindful of their tongue, they could experience Gehenna fire which is figuratively the torment of the conscience
What if Jesus called someone a fool?  Should Jesus be considered as being in danger of Gehenna fire?  Well Jesus did call someone a fool.  In fact He called the Pharisees fools in 4 different verses.  It would be irrational for us to even harbour the thought that Jesus would be in danger of Gehenna fire.
Fire purifies and burns up unwanted character traits likened to "straw, hay, and stubble". Every soul that sinned, and all have sinned, will go through God's chastening, cleansing fire.  It is part of the salvation process.

This phrase, "For our God is a consuming fire," (Heb. 12:29) is not literal, so as to contradict the rest of Scripture, but rather is a spiritual statement --the words are literal words, but the statement, the declaration, is spirit. God, as invisible Spirit, spiritually burns up the spiritual wood, hay, straw, and carnality of the human heart, in a similar way that literal fire burns up these physical materials.

This whole Sermon on the Mount which began in Mat. 5:1 and ended in Mat 7:29 is Christ's teaching on how to live an exceedingly higher level of morality and righteousness than was taught prior to the new covenant
It should be noted that Christ's words concerning Gehenna were for the ears of the disciples.  This further proves that His admonitions were for His followers and not the general population.  His disciples were to learn righteous living and not succumb to the trappings of sin and subsequent Gehenna judgement.

The only other time He mentioned Gehenna was in regards to His rebuking the Pharisees for their hypocrisy.
James 3:5-6

In James 3:5-6 James gives us further insight to a meaning of Gehenna and is consistent with the way  Jesus Christ used it in the gospel accounts.  Just like Jesus, James uses it as a figure of speech, a metaphor.  Nothing at all to do with hell fire.

Jas 3:5  Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6  And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell . (the Greek - Gehenna).

James is using the fire of Gehenna as a metaphor for the destructiveness of sin. Fire burns up and destroys things. And, James is using that metaphor in connection to the body, how that a small part of the body, like the tongue, is like a fire, which can create a larger fire.  Just like a small spark can ignite a blazing forest fire.
He tells us that a tongue, a small member of the body is like a fire which can contaminate more of the members of the body   A small destructive fire ( the tongue) can ignite a larger fire affecting the entire being -- the heart and mind of a man resulting in sin.  Evil thoughts and deeds contaminate and lead to sin.

Seth gave some insight also here:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-threatenings-explained/a-comparison-of-james-and-jesus-concerning-gehenna/msg173598/#msg173598

Jas_3:8  But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9  Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

After all, one moment you are verbally ridiculing someone, and soon after you could be plotting his murder. It can happen that way.  The end result is sin unless it is caught and repented of before it blossoms into a serious sin.

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin brings forth death not hell fire.
Scripture validates the admonition of Christ to repent of sin, avoid Gehenna and thereby ultimately bring many sons to glory.

Mt. 5.29-30 , Mark 9:43, 45, 47 and Mat. 18:9
The next passages are as follows:

Mat 5:29  And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell . (the Greek - Gehenna)..
Mat 5:30  And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell . (the Greek - Gehenna)..

Essentially the same comments that were made regarding Mat 5:22 regarding Gehenna.  Gehenna or Gehenna fire being a figure of speech referring to the chastising and corrective process whereby our sins are burned out of us.  Nothing to do with an ever burning hell fire!  Also the verses below from Mark refer to the same event as Matt. 5:29-30 quoted above.

Mar 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (the Greek - Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:45  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (the Greek - Gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (the Greek - Gehenna fire):

Also:

Mat 18:8  Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire (the Greek - Gehenna fire).
Mat 18:9  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (the Greek - Gehenna fire).

Again this cannot be regarded as literal. Truly Jesus is not suggesting that we maim ourselves. He is saying it is better to enter the Christian life destitute of some great worldly advantage, comparable to a right hand, than to live in sin, with all worldly privileges and accolades , and thereby experience that moral death which is a Gehenna of the soul.

If these Scriptures are to be taken literally, and if the consequences are eternal torment, then the church should be full of one-eyed, one-armed, one-footed members who have problems with lustful eyes and hearts, and greed.  Extending this thought to the "after-life", we don't think in terms of some people being in heaven with missing eyes and limbs, and some in hell with all of theirs.

Compare James 3:6 to Matthew 5:29-30 which were quoted above, we see that they are saying same thing, with slightly different words. Jesus is warning of DANGER, just like James did.  It is telling us why is it needful to cut out a body part (metaphorically) than to venture into sin.
If a body part is on fire, what do you do? You cut it off before the fire spreads. Then, you throw it out into Gehenna Valley (metaphorically) to burn away until it's gone, then you enter life thus avoiding that sin that leads to death.
This is much more profitable than if the tongue fire spreads to the whole body, and you find your whole body aflame in sin, from your feet to your hands and so forth. It's better to stop the offending limb from guiding you into a bigger problem with sin.

Pro_6:27- 28   Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?

Mt. 10.28 and Luke 12:4-5
Another occasion Jesus used Gehenna was when he said:

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (the Greek - Gehenna).
Luk 12:4  And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell (the Greek - Gehenna).; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

A person can kill a another.  But after that there is nothing else that person can do to the one killed.  But God can destroy the soul and body.  So, if God destroys the soul, what happens to the soul that He destroyed?  Does it end up in Heaven or the pagan Hell.  Neither.  Other threads on the topic of Hell proves that man does not have an immortal soul. So what happens to a destroyed soul?   Is it destroyed and obliterated, gone for good?  Is being destroyed a condition from which there is no salvation? No. It is a temporary condition.
The biggest problem in understanding these verses, is to understand who this is addressed to.  The orthodox Church will tell you that it is talking about those who will suffer loss of salvation in the eternal fires of hell. Yet nothing could be further from the truth. This verse was addressed directly to and about the 12 disciples, and is applied to all Christ's followers throughout all generations.

In the gospels that when Christ spoke about Gehenna, He was not referring to an ever burning hell fire for the wicked but rather He used it in a figurative sense for dealing with sin in our lives as a necessary step in the salvation process.  Gehenna or Gehenna fire is JUDGEMENT.

Mt. 23.15 and Mt. 23.33
The final time Jesus used gehenna was when He addressed the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees.  He said:

Mat 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell (the Greek - Gehenna).than yourselves.

This one might seem more severe on the surface than the others, but it's not. In verse 15 Jesus says that they turn their proselytes into children of hell or Gehenna.  Think about that.
Did the Pharisees encompass land and sea to make one proselyte and then turn that convert in a "child of Gehenna?"  Yes, they did, Jesus said they did. But will that "child of Gehenna" loose salvation and be tortured eternally in some Christian eternal hell of fire because they were brainwashed by these evil men? Of course not.  A child of Gehenna is a condition and not a place.

Mat 23:33  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation (Strong's G2920 Greek -krisis meaning judgement) of hell (the Greek - Gehenna).?

Verse 33 tells us how they will be saved.  They will be saved by "the damnation of Gehenna." What is this damnation? It is judgment.  Check a concordance.  They will be saved through judgement which leads to salvation.  The word "damnation" is from the Greek word, krisis, and it means "tribunal, justice, accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgement."  What specific judgment is Jesus talking about? Why the damnation of judgement of gehenna.  This "judgment" is not an evil thing.  It is a righteous thing!  It's just that the old English word "damnation" sounds so terrible and awful, when it is not.
It can be a stern word, but remember that Jesus is coming to judge the world in "righteousness".

Act 17:31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge (Greek -krisis meaning judgement ) the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; ...
The word judge in this verse is from the same Greek word krisis, and it is not an evil word. We just looked at  Matt. 23:23 and saw exactly how fair and good this word krisis/judge is:
Mat 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment (Greek -krisis meaning judgement ), mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Many theologians have perverted the simple and righteous words of God. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for not exercising proper krisis/judgment with Israel. 
To judge, is to set things right. Men can only make feeble attempts at doing this properly, but when God Almighty sets His hand to "set things right," they will be set right! Just as God has brought many of us to our knees for the sins we have committed, so will God bring this whole world to repentance. It will be emotionally traumatic and painful, but it will be a good thing.

And so Gehenna is clearly seen as a way in which Jesus judges sinners, and specifically, the sins of the eyes, hands, and feet. Gehenna fire is judgment. God's judgement is righteous judgement.
So the words of Jesus concerning Gehenna were spiritual and not literal.
Gehenna under Christ's new covenant is judgment. It is not torture in literal fire.  The word should never have been translated "hell," for as we saw, the two words have nothing in common. The literal Gehenna of the Old Testament has long since disappeared.  The worms are dead and gone and the fire no longer burns.  Under the New Covenant It should be recognized as judgement upon God's people to purify them; to make them holy and blameless; and to make them spiritually mature.  Jesus addressed His "Sermon on the Mount" to His disciples.  This "Gehenna " is not for the world of unbelieving sinners, but for His Own disciples, and that includes all who are followers of Christ.  That truly is good news.

Sorry, I did not format it for easy reading.Joe

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

Excellent, comprehensive, balanced.

[darryl]

and JESUS  keeping us from the  last two woes  in the earth and the last two vials  poured out    those are explained well  in REV 9

   For me  the first resurrection is  raised to Life from the dead in Christ and keeping you from  those fiery trials that come  on the rest of the world

you know, our world has suffered so much..so many awful wars, pestilence, disease and child mortality thru out human history even today..I'm starting to think maybe, just maybe all those terrible judgments in Revelation will not happen cuz God our Daddy will not go thru with it..there's times in the OT God threatens to do stuff then relents..I hope its the same with all the horrors in Revelation..that God will relent.

  Hi Daryll ,

   When I have considered        the reasons the Lord   Jesus Christ come  as grace as a "gift"   to us from God in His wisdom

   He come to give a more abundant  spiritual  life   in my opinion ..   and put an end to  the works/ fruits  of satan and destroy Babylon in one Day /1000 yr reign

I believe  Revelations is all about    the works of God though Jesus Christ destroying   both 

that warring is    spiritual  wickedness in high places
To  me that starts  and has a beginning in the   haughty  and high minded   thoughts    that  rise up against God whom is  LOVE and God is a consuming fire   but there is no death in HIM AT ALL

  Death is all we know  and call it life   with eyes though  the  carnal mind   perceiving it  , we see in the news murders   daily over money and  power , loved ones die  , there are all kinds of   evil  being constantly   done to the  unsuspecting   and good natured souls   just trying to help  ,  killing   just to be killing

  as in the days of Noah  JESUS  SAID HE WOULD COME   ,  re intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5)

  not water but fire this time , Jesus  was baptised  and  kindled that fire  in the earth in  LUKE 12 ;4949 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!


2 Peter 3 Christ's Coming Judgment
...6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.    I see the  Revelation  in the 1000 year  reign  as   that ONE DAY OF THE LORD   to destroy     the works of satan and   Babylon  , because John foretold   that He was in the Spirit on the LORDS DAY  and saw all this     happening and going down  and the write it down   for us   to know as well ...


1 John 3 ;8
   I can very well see that the works of satan   would be   delt with in Jesus Christ the WORD OF GOD made flesh   , in our  flesh

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you;

the one who practices righteousness is righteous,

just as He is righteous;

8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.


The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God....


This seed of Christ is the only thing that    can endure the   sodom and Gomorrah       lake of fire and brimstone effect


If you would  read that    in  Gen 19 what was the sin of   Sodom and Gomorrah ? 

, those   men with men  acts against the   2 angels  messengers  of  rev 11    witnesses  to warn of the coming  destruction        same as Romans 1      we have the HOLY WORD   SPEAK   men marrying men   come on ??  women marring women    , as the   days of   Noah   ,   golly  does it get any more perverse than that     even   going against  nature  /beast lying with intimately  in thoughts  of perversion and acts of violence     ‎Leviticus 18:22   much less GODS WORD   ...

  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19

We are so conditioned to the  death mode and carnal   nature    , how can the HOLY SPIRIT    LIVE amongst such   things ?!

  Though JESUS CHRIST  Whom has overcome the world already    and that seed remains    ,  Sodom /Gomorrah is our example of those things to come

yayaa, that's a kool idea..that all the momentous things that happen in Revelation are metaphorical not literal...lotsa 'hell fire and damnation' preachers use Revelation to teach God is so wrathful, furious and vengeful...how wrong they are !

[Dandelion]

Beautiful, joeteekay!

Thank you so much! 

:sunny:

D.

[rosered]

I too have enjoyed  your post very much so Joe !!! :thumbsup:   :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:
Many great insights !!!   an can see how the 12    disciples/students at Jesus feet   would increase    to an innumerable measure !!!
to fill all the ends of the earth ..
I am going to read it  in more  depth   
  God bless you   

[rosered]

yayaa, that's a kool idea..that all the momentous things that happen in Revelation are metaphorical not literal...lotsa 'hell fire and damnation' preachers use Revelation to teach God is so wrathful, furious and vengeful...how wrong they are !

    I don't think that  at all   daryll ,,,,,,,as long as   both  covenants are in effect in the earth ,    We have the I kill/ judgment under the old law to be fulfilled in us still  and I make alive /  in Christ by the grace of God ..
and Babylon is still   very much   Babylon   that some  must still come out of Her my people unless you receive her plagues     , those  7  are for   the mystery of God to be  completed in , 
It never says  revealed at any time , but completed and  I am one who sees this as   a  continual deliverance message   as long as   God desires it to be so ...

To me time is a human element, that the carnal mind ''hold on to''   making many liars manifested , that  has no spiritual significance  what so  ever
as to Gods will being done ..
It has always been by faith , not by sight ....  man does not call the shots ,,,  When Jesus  said  He come to save mens lives  , He meant it  , When it was  written and spoken back in that day , it was   Gods will none should perish     ,   GODS patience    cannot be  measured in time   or any   thought

It has always been the SAME ONE SPIRIT   and always will be     ONE and the SAME  SPIRIT   ... that has never ever changed throughout    eternity , for the lack of a  better Word   ...    but to us  in our small  space of time and urgency    and being in the  here and now    it is very significant to us   
This is the only  variable  difference to me ...

It was never  quantity of life it was the quality of Life      , Gods mercy was to shorten the days of our flesh and suffering  by   Adams  day  to this day    ,   930 years was a day to the Lord   , see what I mean ?
  and 70 years 80 by grace is our DAY ,   to the  Lord ...
  Most don't understand this  part    and I did not either  , til the Holy Spirit   placed it in my heart    ,,  I am one who is  really  big on being taught of the Holy Spirit and that waiting on   it is the hardest part  to me ..   When running to far ahead   I stumble  and fall   EVERY TIME  :sigh:     so humbling and weakened   , so  is waiting on the LORD for His help again to  be lifted out of the  pits of despair , what is not of faith is sin / error    and missing the mark  to that narrow path  that leads to life  in the Spirit of Christ ...
so simple and yet  difficult / pressing   in the same manner ...   We get to ''feel'' experience everything    and that is  a lot of ''all things '' ....

God bless you

[jabcat]

When I was a young man of God, full of zeal and vision.......[  http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/christ's-use-of-gehenna/msg194890/#msg194890        ]

i like this post john..interesting things to think on... :thumbsup:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: and beautiful things,too!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Really beautiful stuff coming forth.  :thumbsup:

Just wanted to comment about the Jews belief because I'm in a body of them and a few weeks months back I went through a communal prayer with them that they do for those that may/may not be in that year of judgment following death. It's called the Kaddish, and because Jesus was raised with such, some of the prayers like this that they do at particular times of the year, I believe He too would have prayed, because you cannot fault them for preserving what they received for millenia. Blessings....

[sheila]

he who is merciful..will be shown mercy,he who refreshes others..will be refreshed.

[rosered]

Amen to  all  I loved it when I read  that Daniel prayed  for his sins against God and for the sins of His people  , I see this as a  priesthood   type and  shadow

and was so blessed by this  , in my  foolish youth  I only prayed for my sins  and family  protection  lol  ,  and the Word of God says pray for your enemies   
, I  was  so silly and think how in the world did God put  up with such   selfish foolishness ???   :flowerred:

   My grandfather   always prayed , for  the children and the children's children and the children to come ....     I never forgot that and wondered if it was not for all  of Gods children     

   

  Daniel 9

20Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel,

and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God,


21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel,

whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering.

Loving everyone where they are at  ,   It is the Lord whom will    finish what He  has started   perfectly   and completely

    not by power or by might but By His Spirit       Zech 4

...5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?"

And I said, "No, my lord."


6Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.


7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"



Jesus Christ is not only risen He is reigning  being  the Lord of the dead and living  :HeartThrob:


   Mark 1619So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.


20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.


And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred

and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.