ET itself vs. the systemization of it

[jugghead]

Just as fossils become fuel (oil) to keep something running/moving ..... so does death become a fuel to keep fear alive in the doctrine of Hell

[Lazarus Short]

In my close reading of the Biblical text, I keep noticing things which should put paid to ET, and it starts with Genesis 1:1, which fails to mention that God created Hell.  Most folks breeze right on by, and never think of the implications.  Why, God even states that He is going to give resurrection and an inheritance to the people of Amalek.  How universal is that?!

[rosered]

In my close reading of the Biblical text, I keep noticing things which should put paid to ET, and it starts with Genesis 1:1, which fails to mention that God created Hell.  Most folks breeze right on by, and never think of the implications.  Why, God even states that He is going to give resurrection and an inheritance to the people of Amalek.  How universal is that?!

  I do believe   you got something there  Laz ..

  I know that hell  is the grave  , many confuse what  Hell is by not understanding it  and I have been trying to understand it   for years and years  and am still not sure of many things   still .
  In Gen 1  there was no   hell /  grave   /death

  the  only clue we have is in Gen  2 when the  Lord  put   Adam in a deep sleep      to form Eve out of His side ... 

  and in some scriptures we see the sleep of death being and they slept with their fathers   ... and not seeing this as death but sleep 

  Adam was told the day   that  you eat  of the tree  of knowledge    of good and evil     you will surly die     ...in  Gen 2 16


15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;


17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

in the day to me is in the Light of knowing better    ,  not in the dark about it  or ignorant about it ,,,

Eve was ignorant about it     in the dark deceived, but she   did eat   and gave to her  husband     and their eyes were opened    to sin/evil  , but not without   Adam knowing better , So what died in Adam  the Day he ate  ? 

Some say innocence   , some say   that hell / grave /   death opened  up [   Isaiah 5] 14 Therefore hath Sheol enlarged herself, And hath opened her mouth without limit. And gone down hath its honour, and its multitude, And its noise, and its exulting one -- into her.

  So in Adam all die  but in Christ all shall be made alive ...

I  don't understand   this   part   ,  how some sleep in death   with their fathers    died in faith  , to rise in Christ and others  are held  by it  till Christ comes to make alive ... I think of David whom saw corruption......  Where JESUS never saw  corruption 

  Maybe the  first resurrection  where death has no power   to hold  , or the second death where harm is done  when   hell and  death are cast into the lake of fire

  to purge and purify ..

    Like I said some parts are  dark to me , and  am ignorant to them  still  :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

Its like trying to understand "asleep in Jesus and dead in Christ"

A crude illustration can be this:

Unbelievers/no law = asleep in Jesus but not yet dead in Christ
Believers/Law = Dead in Christ but yet not risen
Believers/freed from law = Dead in Christ and risen

My  :2c: understanding ..... yet under scrutiny

[marie glen]

In my close reading of the Biblical text, I keep noticing things which should put paid to ET, and it starts with Genesis 1:1, which fails to mention that God created Hell.  Most folks breeze right on by, and never think of the implications.  Why, God even states that He is going to give resurrection and an inheritance to the people of Amalek.  How universal is that?!

   :thumbsup: :gthumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...

[marie glen]

Its like trying to understand "asleep in Jesus and dead in Christ"

A crude illustration can be this:

Unbelievers/no law = asleep in Jesus but not yet dead in Christ
Believers/Law = Dead in Christ but yet not risen
Believers/freed from law = Dead in Christ and risen

My  :2c: understanding ..... yet under scrutiny

I like that! that's a great attitude to have.. the attitude.. actually! for us all! :))

I  don't understand   this   part   ,  how some sleep in death   with their fathers    died in faith  , to rise in Christ and others  are held  by it  till Christ comes to make alive ... I think of David whom saw corruption......  Where JESUS never saw  corruption

To me, I see the grave like a bed.. the headstone is the headboard of the bed.. seeds planted.. in trust..

To sleep with the fathers.. "in sheol"?.. "where there is no thought nor doing.."

And to be dead in Christ.. or asleep in Jesus is to have died, but are part of the 1st resurrection, which as we know, is the resurrection of all believers, of all those who have lived and will live on earth, who came to believe in Jesus before their death. "The rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are ended.." (rev 20) (after the thousand years/millennium of Jesus..)

And if there's no Universal Reconciliation/Repentance/Redemption, why resurrect all those who have never believed? Which is what the 2nd resurrection is. ..1 Thess 4..

(an interesting cross reference here is in Romans (10?) "if their (Israel's) falling away is salvation for the world" - gospel to gentiles/the nations - "then what is their gathering back in, but life from the dead?" (aka, resurrection/His return 1 Thess 4) ..rev 12:17;16:14-16

It seems logical to me that God is life itself and also perfection. But with thinking ability comes choice (limited thank goodness) and the ability to wander away from God, which is to become/be imperfect, the opposite of life. And hence the rescue needed. ..And that rescue (redemption/reconciliation) built in from the foundation/beginning. (Built in A to Z!) :hiya: :gsmile:

[jugghead]

Its like trying to understand "asleep in Jesus and dead in Christ"

A crude illustration can be this:

Unbelievers/no law = asleep in Jesus but not yet dead in Christ
Believers/Law = Dead in Christ but yet not risen
Believers/freed from law = Dead in Christ and risen

My  :2c: understanding ..... yet under scrutiny

Revision:

Two classes of people: asleep in Jesus and dead in Christ

Asleep in Jesus ..... those who have not been awakened (convinced) that they are dead
Dead in Christ ..... those who have been awakened (convinced) that they were dead

[darryl]

In my close reading of the Biblical text, I keep noticing things which should put paid to ET, and it starts with Genesis 1:1, which fails to mention that God created Hell.  Most folks breeze right on by, and never think of the implications.  Why, God even states that He is going to give resurrection and an inheritance to the people of Amalek.  How universal is that?!

right..'eternal torment in hell' is not once mentioned in the Book of Acts either..which is mighty peculiar specially since Acts is the Bible's  documentation of the first evangelical outreaches of the Christian church.What a difference to today's church scene where 'saving people from eternal hell' is preached as the main motivation to evangelize people.Man oh boy, how far off course the Christian evangelical church has drifted since 2000 years ago !.

[Shev]

In my close reading of the Biblical text, I keep noticing things which should put paid to ET, and it starts with Genesis 1:1, which fails to mention that God created Hell.  Most folks breeze right on by, and never think of the implications.  Why, God even states that He is going to give resurrection and an inheritance to the people of Amalek.  How universal is that?!

right..'eternal torment in hell' is not once mentioned in the Book of Acts either..which is mighty peculiar specially since Acts is the Bible's  documentation of the first evangelical outreaches of the Christian church.What a difference to today's church scene where 'saving people from eternal hell' is preached as the main motivation to evangelize people.Man oh boy, how far off course the Christian evangelical church has drifted since 2000 years ago !.

Amen Darryl! Gehenna is only mentioned by Jesus and James, both of whom were speaking/writing to Jews, who would have understood the physical location and metaphorical aspects.

[darryl]

 :iagree:

[marie glen]

Amen!!  :iagree: :iagree:

[rosered]

Its like trying to understand "asleep in Jesus and dead in Christ"

A crude illustration can be this:

Unbelievers/no law = asleep in Jesus but not yet dead in Christ
Believers/Law = Dead in Christ but yet not risen
Believers/freed from law = Dead in Christ and risen

My  :2c: understanding ..... yet under scrutiny

Revision:

Two classes of people: asleep in Jesus and dead in Christ

Asleep in Jesus ..... those who have not been awakened (convinced) that they are dead
Dead in Christ ..... those who have been awakened (convinced) that they were dead

  Thanks   for the  clarity  Jugg

  You said it !! 
  I was thinking     the end from the beginning    having a clue maybe ?
  Sometimes the Lord lets these things    be ''gathered '' in our thoughts   and it takes  a little time

I do believe the earth become the grave /sheol    because the earth swallowed up the  dragons flood  , so   death is   held  in the earth

as  the waters below  they do NOT PRAISE  GOD ,  Heaven the waters/voices   above   the skies  praise God , eventually all will praise GOD IN HARMONY
Being the Lord God is going to  dry up all the waters  of the dragons flood of lies  , with great HEAT   
  the sea gives up the  dead   etc ...   sheol gives up   rev 20   and we see   that satan is the last to be cast into   this FIRE   this lines up well .. with the dragons flood and Isaiah 5    sheol   GRAVE enlarged herself  swallowing up the   flood   to ''Help the woman '' Church  SPIRITual Body
Jesus even warns of      those building on sand and those on the rock   when ,the flood that comes and sweeps them all away  as in the days of Noah to Him
The Final Judgment
...12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire....


All will praise God  , every knee bow and tongue confess  the LORD JESUS CHRIST ,    HE ABOLISHED, formally put an end to (a system, practice, or institution).DEATH ON HIS CROSS   and made a new  way !!

As you said ,  they do not know they are dead , the dead know nothing  and do not praise God in the grave where they are going or ''held'' The dead cannot sing praises to the LORD, for they have gone into the silence of the grave.
For the dead cannot praise you; they cannot raise their voices in praise. Those who go down to the grave can no longer hope in your faithfulness

  Gen 1 The Second Day: Firmament
6Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Genesis 1:8
God called the vault "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day.

Job 38:8
"Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,

Psalm 19:1
For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Psalm 148:4
Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.

So those knowing the Glory of God   sing   ''holy holy  holy ''    this is the heavens and voices that declare HIM   :HeartThrob:

Something so simple and yet  beautifully  profound !!! :HeartThrob:  praise God .
GODS GLORY WILL BE MADE KNOWN  BY THE FIRE AND LIGHT  of His presence ... :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Great point Laz. So simple its almost invisible ;o)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's true....glaringly simple, yet there it is. Did He create it in His "spare time" then?  :laughing7:

[rosered]

  If one would consider the dragons flood of lies   and the earth opened her MOUTH   to swallow up all that   FILTH of the flesh  , the help of God  so

the WOMAN / TRUE CHURCH   could be saved ..
She is cleansed by the washing of the LIVING  water of the WORD   opposites...

   

  we   would    SEE that the world    is what Jesus WORD warns to to NOT be like 

  we are in it but not of it , because the Waters of Life  freely  given to us

   We are to rise and come up out of the world     that is  our   hell/ graves  and  death

  it is  simple and clean and a child of God can understand it