Christ's use of Gehenna

[Kate]

I understand that the Pharisee's of Jesus' day predominantly considered Gehenna to reference eternal punishment (or, in some cases, temporal punishment or annihilation). In warning his listeners about Gehenna then, was Jesus referring to something most of the Jews of his day would recognize as eternal conscious torment? The common people, after all, tended to follow the Pharisee's words. If Christ was referencing something other than the Pharisee's Gehenna—the Gehenna that Jews already knew—would he not have clarified that he was speaking about something different?

Christ's 'Gehenna' warnings sure do seem to reference eternal punishment, destruction, or non-remedial punishment. They seem much more in line with the Pharisee's view than simply referencing the Gehenna has the garbage dump of Jerusalem.

Mark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Matthew 10:28 " Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

I have been a Christian Universalist for about three years now, mostly because I don't think I could know God any other way. I cling to those hopeful verses that seem to point to universal restoration, but doubt still clings—lately, much more strongly than hope.

[darryl]

GEHENNA (excerpt from Wikipedia )
Rabbinical Judaism
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Berecraph 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Berecraph 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[19] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.
Due to Jewish religious tradition regarding the bloodiness of its history, Gehenna became a metonym for "Hell" or any similar place of punishment in the afterlife.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. 1200 CE). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[20] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[21] from 1986 holds a similar view.
There is evidence however that the southwest shoulder of this valley (Ketef Hinnom) was a burial location with numerous burial chambers that were reused by generations of families from as early as the seventh until the fifth century BCE. The use of this area for tombs continued into the first centuries BCE and CE. By 70 CE, the area was not only a burial site but also a place for cremation of the dead with the arrival of the Tenth Roman Legion, who were the only group known to practice cremation in this region.[22]
In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore.[23][24] However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire.
Eventually the Hebrew term Gehinnom[25] became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism. According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every Sabbath day is excluded from punishment.[26] After this the soul will ascend to Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come), be destroyed, or continue to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.[27]

this doesn't say the Pharisees all believed Gehenna was 'eternal torment'..it was temporary in their belief, 12 months at most.Maybe some thought Gehenna was eternal but generally the Pharisees believed it was temporary. If the chastisement/ correction in Gehenna was 'never ending' Jesus would surely have said so .  To remove any doubt over such an important matter  Jesus surely would have used a Greek  word such as 'aidios' (everlasting,eternal) to describe the duration of chastisement/ correction there but He did not He uses the Greek word 'aionios' (age  -during)which is derived from the Hebrew concept of 'olam'. Olam definetly does not mean eternal... so Gehenna is definitely not eternal/everlasting.

[marie glen]

hi! we recently had a very active thread on here about gehenna.. I will see if I can find it and will post the link :smile:

I've never heard before that the pharisees considered it to be eternal punishment, etc.. But have always heard the Hebrews did not have any concept of a 'hell' or 'hell' like place. From what most of us understand, I think, is that gehenna was the Jerusalem town dump. And egads, even the bodies of criminals were thrown there.. it was a valley outside of Jerusalem.. nearby to.. or part of ? the Hinnom Valley where the nation sinned greatly against Jehovah, our heavenly Father.

And the Greek.. so pedominant in the world in Jesus' day was a very dramatic culture.. their speech, stories, dramas, etc. For Jesus to say.. if your hand causes you to offend one of these little ones - earlier in the chapter - it would be better to throw your hand away, is a dramatic turn of speech. And of course, he's right! As metaphor of course!

In the old testament it was "sheol".. "all meet in sheol" .."oh that you would hide me in sheol" .."I will go down to sheol grieving.." .."in sheol there is neither thought nor doing.."

The greek hades means "place of the dead".. they were a pagan culture in a long line of paganism.. the place of the dead is still the grave.. every 'hell' reference can be easily debunked.

It doesn't bother me that He can destroy ones, body and psyche/being. I consider that if not for His intervention (and intent) we would all perish, the natural result of "missing the mark" (being flawed/imperfect).

Most folks here, I believe, think of the lake of fire as a spiritual lake.. one we, as believers now experience, the purifying fire of God's love. And the more we love Him.. the purer the fire in us..

I'm off to find the other thread.. it's a good one! :gsmile: oh! and to read Darryl's post..

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch: that thread took a bad turn.. :sigh:

[darryl]

please study the Hebrew term 'olam' and its relationship to 'aionios'..in the Septuagint Greek translation of the Old Testament, which Jesus and the apostles all quote from so its authoritative, the Hebrew word 'olam' is translated 'aionios' or 'aionion' (the word mistranslated as 'eternal' in Matthew 25:46).Olam does not mean eternal or everlasting. It carries the meaning of 'something just over the horizon' or 'something that lasts as long as its needed then it ends'...really, there is so much study to do on these matters and it is essential to study 'olam' and its relationship to 'aionios'...there's a great thesis on 'olam' and its relationship to 'aionios' on this website..I'll try find the link when I get time...it conclusively proves that 'aionios' does not mean everlasting.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:  :iagree: :iagree:

[darryl]

I've never heard before that the pharisees considered it to be eternal punishment, etc.

they didn't...there was no general consensus within the Pharisees regarding the duration of time spent in Gehenna...most believed it only lasted 12 months at the most then people were released.

[darryl]

GEHENNA (excerpt from Wikipedia )
Rabbinical Judaism
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Berecraph 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Berecraph 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[19] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.
Due to Jewish religious tradition regarding the bloodiness of its history, Gehenna became a metonym for "Hell" or any similar place of punishment in the afterlife.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. 1200 CE). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[20] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[21] from 1986 holds a similar view.
There is evidence however that the southwest shoulder of this valley (Ketef Hinnom) was a burial location with numerous burial chambers that were reused by generations of families from as early as the seventh until the fifth century BCE. The use of this area for tombs continued into the first centuries BCE and CE. By 70 CE, the area was not only a burial site but also a place for cremation of the dead with the arrival of the Tenth Roman Legion, who were the only group known to practice cremation in this region.[22]
In time it became deemed to be accursed and an image of the place of destruction in Jewish folklore.[23][24] However, Jewish folklore suggests the valley had a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire.
Eventually the Hebrew term Gehinnom[25] became a figurative name for the place of spiritual purification for the wicked dead in Judaism. According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every Sabbath day is excluded from punishment.[26] After this the soul will ascend to Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come), be destroyed, or continue to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.[27]

this doesn't say the Pharisees all believed Gehenna was 'eternal torment'..it was temporary in their belief, 12 months at most.Maybe some thought Gehenna was eternal but generally the Pharisees believed it was temporary. If the chastisement/ correction in Gehenna was 'never ending' Jesus would surely have said so .  To remove any doubt over such an important matter  Jesus surely would have used a Greek  word such as 'aidios' (everlasting,eternal) to describe the duration of chastisement/ correction there but He did not He uses the Greek word 'aionios' (age  -during)which is derived from the Hebrew concept of 'olam'. Olam definetly does not mean eternal... so Gehenna is definitely not eternal/everlasting.

my take on the NT 'Gehenna' passages re the 'worm' and 'everlasting fire' is this...earthly worms (maggots) devour rotting flesh..maggots are even used by doctors for cleaning out necrotic  tissue within a wound and disinfection.
There is also evidence that maggot therapy may help with wound healing..similarly,the 'worm' (maggot) in 'Gehenna' devours the rotten soul (NOT the spirit) and destroys the parts of the soul that need destroying..it's the worm of God so does not die (unlike earthly worms)..the fire in 'Gehenna' purifying the soul is the fire of God so is not extinguished...it's all corrective in nature, non eternal, and for the sinners ultimate good.

[darryl]

It doesn't bother me that He can destroy ones, body and psyche/being. I consider that if not for His intervention (and intent) we would all perish, the natural result of "missing the mark" (being flawed/imperfect).

Interestingly enough the Bible never talks about one's 'spirit' being destroyed only one's soul and body...God is the 'Father of spirits' and He does not destroy the 'spirit' of his creatures (human beings).

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup: ..and even if He wanted to, which He doesn't.. He wouldn't have to, as "the wages/result of sin/imperfection is death.." (We would all just naturally perish.) Since He is Life itself.. and also Perfection, to differ with Him in any tiny way in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, the opposite of life". (Or that's how it seems to me:)

It's my belief all 'punishment' is but results and consequences of mankind's own doings.. and rain falls on all, as we're in an imperfect world.. Even the lof, if it's gehenna, is the sorrow of repentance, the burning of remorse.. Or so I believe! I'm not saying He feels no anger whatsoever when horrible and despicable things are done to innocent folks.. I mean I wouldn't know, but I'm thinking logic..

Two ends of a pole.. that He is love and infinitely merciful.. kind.. I mean, He is after all, Love.

It's late.. I think I'm starting to babble.. I enjoy your posts, darryl! :smile:

[darryl]

Amen! :thumbsup: ..and even if He wanted to, which He doesn't.. He wouldn't have to, as "the wages/result of sin/imperfection is death.." (We would all just naturally perish.) Since He is Life itself.. and also Perfection, to differ with Him in any tiny way in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, the opposite of life". (Or that's how it seems to me:)

It's my belief all 'punishment' is but results and consequences of mankind's own doings.. and rain falls on all, as we're in an imperfect world.. Even the lof, if it's gehenna, is the sorrow of repentance, the burning of remorse.. Or so I believe! I'm not saying He feels no anger whatsoever when horrible and despicable things are done to innocent folks.. I mean I wouldn't know, but I'm thinking logic..

Two ends of a pole.. that He is love and infinitely merciful.. kind.. I mean, He is after all, Love.

It's late.. I think I'm starting to babble.. I enjoy your posts, darryl! :smile:

yes !...good points !..I'm enjoying yours too, marie ! :gimmefive:

[darryl]

Mark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."

'worms'?..in the plural ?..that's interesting because it's actually singular, 'worm', in the original Greek (skolex = worm) text of this passage.

[rosered]

Mark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."

'worms'?..in the plural ?..that's interesting because it's actually singular, 'worm', in the original Greek (skolex = worm) text of this passage.

This could be helpful      Daryll     recently many of  posts made and covered a lot of ground   on the worm verses worms  subject  :dsunny:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/worm-dieth-not/

[marie glen]

    :Chinscratch: I agree! That's very interesting..

[marie glen]

   ?...worm as metaphor for decadence.. disintegration, corruption.. rot! (sin, imperfection, opposite of God/Life/Perfection, so is nonlife? which ='s? the knowing of good from not good. Knowing it is life from nonlife - Go not that way.) ....?

[Kate]

Thank you both very much-- I will reply more in depth soon, as I worked late tonight. Truthfully, I just feel so spiritually exhausted. Such literary and linguistic ananlyses sound so foreign to me, and if I am being honest, a Universalist argument can sound as convincing and research-based as an ECT argument to my untrained mind. The only difference seems that my heart simply FEELS shut to a god of eternal punishment, but of course, most Christians would simply tell me that this is my carnal mind leading me astray.:/

[darryl]

Mark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched."

'worms'?..in the plural ?..that's interesting because it's actually singular, 'worm', in the original Greek (skolex = worm) text of this passage.

This could be helpful      Daryll     recently many of  posts made and covered a lot of ground   on the worm verses worms  subject  :dsunny:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/worm-dieth-not/

k..thanks !..actually I've already read that thread..I still like my take on 'the worm' as a metaphor for the purifying agent of God that consumes all that is depraved,worldly,prideful, unGodly etc within people ( the stuff that prevents people from seeing Jesus for who He truly is ) so that after this (maybe arduous)  process they might see Jesus for who He is, turn to him, repent, cry out and be saved from Gehenna or the Lake of Fire ...

to tell the truth the 'worm' doesn't scare me like it did when I was an 'eternal hellist'..it terrified me then but now I'm more in touch with God's love I really do see 'the worm' of Mark 9:47-48 in an entirely new,different and beneficial way ( as I tried to explain in my post somewhere above ).

It's interesting to note that the Bible speaks of the soul being destroyed or the body but NEVER the spirit...that's very significant in my view.

[darryl]

Thank you both very much-- I will reply more in depth soon, as I worked late tonight. Truthfully, I just feel so spiritually exhausted. Such literary and linguistic ananlyses sound so foreign to me, and if I am being honest, a Universalist argument can sound as convincing and research-based as an ECT argument to my untrained mind. The only difference seems that my heart simply FEELS shut to a god of eternal punishment, but of course, most Christians would simply tell me that this is my carnal mind leading me astray.:/

much of the problem is due to the fact that we read the Bible in English translated by 'ET' translators and not in the original language(s)...

anyway, in Mt7 : 23 Jesus says, "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness'.'Please note He doesn't say 'depart from me into 'eternal (aidios) punishment (timora) in hellfire...in fact, Jesus NEVER uses the Greek words which unequivocally mean 'eternal' (aidios)  and 'vindictive punishment' (timora). He uses 'aionios' (age- during) and 'kolasis' (chastising/ corrective punishment)

....so yes, they do depart but only into a period of corrective chastening, not eternal torment...again, how do I know this ?..one reason is because in Mt 25:46 Jesus says,

46. "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian (Greek word used is 'aionion') pruning (Greek word used is 'kolasis' meaning a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age).MITCHELLS TRANSLATION.

again, Jesus NEVER uses the Greek term for 'eternal punishment' (aidios timora). He uses 'AIONION KOLASIS' meaning 'age- during correction'.

Also in Jeremiah 32:35 concerning sacrificing children by burning them alive to Molech, God says burning people in fire is an abomination to Him..the very thought never entered His mind.

So, God hates the act of burning humans alive for Molech yet will burn human beings, whom He created,  alive for all eternity ?. No, this idea of 'eternal torment' is obviously wrong.I am certain it hurts God when 'Christians' unjustly present Him as a God who torments human beings forever without end.

[eaglesway]

My view diverges from the norm to some extent, so I'll put it out there Kate.

In my opinion aion is a Greek transliteration of "olam".

Olam occurs around 440 times in the OT. It use is diverse to the extent it always means something hard to see- whether because of distance(ancient times in Gen. 6:4), long-duration (Gen 9:16), or uncertain circumstances(a slaves lifespan Deut 15:17) or, in some cases even, forever(Psalm 90:2; 92:8)

Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations.
      2Before the mountains were born
            Or You gave birth to the earth and the world,
            Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

God is God as far back as you can see and beyond and as far forward as you can see and beyond, from olam to olam.

But a slave is indentured "olam"- for the rest of His life, how ever long that is, or until his bond holder releases him from indenture.

an aion is a time appropriate to a purpose, and when it come to Gehenna, it could be many stripes or few. It is "olam"- impossible to see from here.


olam

Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
long duration, antiquity, futurity
NASB Translation
ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1)


The Pharisees saw olam as refering to world/ages. To this day among Jews "olam Ha- ba" means the world of light to come, "olam ha- ze" means this present dark world, "tikkun olam" means "repairing the world"- the mission of God's people. Look it up!

This is what Jesus was (imo) referring to -correction in the world to come, or the life of blessing in the world to come, based on repairing the world(with Him) in this age.

You can see this in Paul's writing in 1 Cor 3:12-15...and  remember, Paul was a Pharisee.

12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The Pharisees were building wood, hay and stubble, and the Day(the presence of Jesus whose face shines like the sun shining in its strength) was revealing it. Gehenna is a symbol Jesus used for the place of the removal of this garbage....remember from the beginning He said things like "I will separate the wheat from the chaff, and I will thoroughly purge my threshing floor, and i will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The chaff is what gets broken off the wheat. It is good for nothing but to be burned. Every grain has wheat and chaff. The wheat is gathered. The chaff is burned.

In revelations 14 you see that the devil and his angels are tormented "in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"....remember, there is fire in His eyes and a two-edged sword comes out of His mouth and "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess".

When shall they bow? When the sword of His mouth has pierced their hearts, separating the wheat fron the chaff, and the flames have consumed the darkness of the chaff(carnal man/Adam)- they will bow, and they will confess, and they will be gathered.

Here are three verses from Paul that are consistent with these thoughts

Eph 1:9,10
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Col 1:18-20
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

1 Cor 15:25-28
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


Many stripes or few, according to the need, "You will not get out until you have paid the last penny".

That last penny is the same for all, it is humbling ourselves before our Savior and Lord. Bending the knee, confessing His Lordship, receiving reconciliation, being filled up with love.

As we were once also enemies and have been saved by grace, and purified by fire, eventually every last enemy will be subjected, reconciled and then gathered into the "all in all" of God's love.

At question is whether we will participate in it as priests and children of God.


Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:3-10

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. rev 20:6

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:18-23

Or will we be among those who say "Lord, Lord" and list our works and our professions, when all He wanted was a heart of compassion, a lil "tikkun olam" :o)

How much of our works will be burned up in the fire that comes from the eyes of the one who "tries the reins and the hearts" :o)

[rosered]

   :thumbsup:   :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:     Great posts
  Daryll , Marie and John!!!    ,  great   thoughts Kate!!!!!   John   that was wonderful and helpful   for me  about OLam !

  second death     is harm
  I have considered     the lake of fire

  as purification and it is the most painful part  to avoid

and JESUS  keeping us from the  last two woes  in the earth and the last two vials  poured out    those are explained well  in REV 9

   For me  the first resurrection is  raised to Life from the dead in Christ and keeping you from  those fiery trials that come  on the rest of the world

But the   dead did not live again till   after the 1000  year reign of Christ    Rev 20 

  Many different  views    on what the 1000  year reign  of Christ  is ,
  But for me it is as simple as keeping you  in   HIM and protected ''that last  hour   ''   protected from the harm    that the rest of the world shall experience   to learn righteousness in the earth  , because Jesus Christ will make a short work of  it ...  Romans 9

Weymouth New Testament
for the Lord will hold a reckoning upon the earth, making it efficacious and brief."

World English Bible
for He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth."

Young's Literal Translation
for a matter He is finishing, and is cutting short in righteousness, because a matter cut short will the Lord do upon the land.


keep you from the hour of trial   Romans 9 The Calling of the Gentiles
...27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA,

IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."

29And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY/SEED , WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

  Rev 3     is the  brotherly lOVE  Message to the Church in Philadelphia
...9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan,

who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance,

I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown....

   the feet are  the teaching [ good news of the gospel    that the dead will hear HIS VOICE  AND LIVE ]   the foot    over the neck  is to conquer    the enemy  and making him bow    down  in submission  To hear what the Spirit is saying ...   Those in Christ will  be as the  VOICE  of many waters and give to drink in the very parched and barren waste land

  How and when and where ?     those things may have been and  are and will be  still  ,  as I know  all things are possible with God   :HeartThrob:

[darryl]

and JESUS  keeping us from the  last two woes  in the earth and the last two vials  poured out    those are explained well  in REV 9

   For me  the first resurrection is  raised to Life from the dead in Christ and keeping you from  those fiery trials that come  on the rest of the world

you know, our world has suffered so much..so many awful wars, pestilence, disease and child mortality thru out human history even today..I'm starting to think maybe, just maybe all those terrible judgments in Revelation will not happen cuz God our Daddy will not go thru with it..there's times in the OT God threatens to do stuff then relents..I hope its the same with all the horrors in Revelation..that God will relent.

[rosered]

and JESUS  keeping us from the  last two woes  in the earth and the last two vials  poured out    those are explained well  in REV 9

   For me  the first resurrection is  raised to Life from the dead in Christ and keeping you from  those fiery trials that come  on the rest of the world

you know, our world has suffered so much..so many awful wars, pestilence, disease and child mortality thru out human history even today..I'm starting to think maybe, just maybe all those terrible judgments in Revelation will not happen cuz God our Daddy will not go thru with it..there's times in the OT God threatens to do stuff then relents..I hope its the same with all the horrors in Revelation..that God will relent.

  Hi Daryll ,

   When I have considered        the reasons the Lord   Jesus Christ come  as grace as a "gift"   to us from God in His wisdom

   He come to give a more abundant  spiritual  life   in my opinion ..   and put an end to  the works/ fruits  of satan and destroy Babylon in one Day /1000 yr reign

I believe  Revelations is all about    the works of God though Jesus Christ destroying   both 

that warring is    spiritual  wickedness in high places
To  me that starts  and has a beginning in the   haughty  and high minded   thoughts    that  rise up against God whom is  LOVE and God is a consuming fire   but there is no death in HIM AT ALL

  Death is all we know  and call it life   with eyes though  the  carnal mind   perceiving it  , we see in the news murders   daily over money and  power , loved ones die  , there are all kinds of   evil  being constantly   done to the  unsuspecting   and good natured souls   just trying to help  ,  killing   just to be killing

  as in the days of Noah  JESUS  SAID HE WOULD COME   ,  re intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5)

  not water but fire this time , Jesus  was baptised  and  kindled that fire  in the earth in  LUKE 12 ;4949 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!


2 Peter 3 Christ's Coming Judgment
...6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.    I see the  Revelation  in the 1000 year  reign  as   that ONE DAY OF THE LORD   to destroy     the works of satan and   Babylon  , because John foretold   that He was in the Spirit on the LORDS DAY  and saw all this     happening and going down  and the write it down   for us   to know as well ...


1 John 3 ;8
   I can very well see that the works of satan   would be   delt with in Jesus Christ the WORD OF GOD made flesh   , in our  flesh

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you;

the one who practices righteousness is righteous,

just as He is righteous;

8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.


The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God....


This seed of Christ is the only thing that    can endure the   sodom and Gomorrah       lake of fire and brimstone effect


If you would  read that    in  Gen 19 what was the sin of   Sodom and Gomorrah ? 

, those   men with men  acts against the   2 angels  messengers  of  rev 11    witnesses  to warn of the coming  destruction        same as Romans 1      we have the HOLY WORD   SPEAK   men marrying men   come on ??  women marring women    , as the   days of   Noah   ,   golly  does it get any more perverse than that     even   going against  nature  /beast lying with intimately  in thoughts  of perversion and acts of violence     ‎Leviticus 18:22   much less GODS WORD   ...

  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19

We are so conditioned to the  death mode and carnal   nature    , how can the HOLY SPIRIT    LIVE amongst such   things ?!

  Though JESUS CHRIST  Whom has overcome the world already    and that seed remains    ,  Sodom /Gomorrah is our example of those things to come

[marie glen]

 :2c: the things in Revelation are already occurring.. and right now the 4 angels (7:1) are holding back the (new) fiery wind unleashed by man (13:13; 6:12-17 - but the seals are a blend of their 1st & their last -  a 'lock' on the vision) -- when those winds are once again used in warfare (limited?) is the opening of the 7th seal which ushers in world governing, marshall law for 5 months..

the bowls (or vials) I believe occur all at once and is seal 6 & 13:13 occurring again, and is the fire He arrives in/with and with His angels to gather the elect.. as the fire 'comes down' the elect 'meet Him at His arrival.. the flames not touching.. 666, i believe runs for 45 days-Dn 12:11,12 45 days to keep a very low profile in His guiding Spirit w/o having to buy or sell..

(have we hijacked the thread?) :mshock: (revelation is a fire in my heart and mind for many years now.. man's world is built on sand.. if the whole world repented and turned to YHWH.. would be a different culmination of man's doings upon earth.. but I honestly cannot see it happening)

[eaglesway]

When I was a young man of God, full of zeal and vision, I used to weep and mourn before the Lord over the awesome things he had shown me, concerning the body of Christ, the kingdom of God- and the ignorant arrogance of organizational Christians. I never worried too much about the world and its evil, because somehow I always new that the work of God in this age was the Bride, the first fruits, the ecclesia. That is where the hope of the world is hidden. Jesus is the treasure and the answer, but we are the vessels that bear this treasure of "Christ in you"- and hold the keys to the kingdom. Why, the very gates of Sheol cannot stand against us.

As Jesus said to Peter, "When you were young, you went where you would and strengthened yourself, but when you are old another will strengthen you and lead you where you dont want to go".

The earth must be sown with the blood of the martyrs- that is where the victory comes, "Except a corn of wheat fall to the ground and be hidden in the earth, it cannot bear fruit like unto itself."

The Lord spoke to me pretty clearly one night many years ago as I was interceding and worrying the Lord about His work in the earth and my part in it.

The jist of it was,

"This is my plan, from the beginning. I am the progenitor, the initiator. Satan reacts to what I do, I do not react to him. I am way ahead of him. In this way he does my bidding though he doesnt kno it.

I will do as I will. I am in control of everything. I will have my way whether you are a part of it or not. I am not dependent on you to accomplish all my plan. I will have my glory and fulfill all my desire in the earth whether you are a part of it or not."

Oddly enough, this mild rebuke set me free into an abundant joy. God was not waiting on me. He was not waiting on the world. He is patient and full of mercy, not willing that any should perish, and giving all abundant opportunity to come to the fire and stand in it. Now I wait upon the Lord in a full assurance of faith. He will have His way, and all flesh shall see it, but no flesh will glory in His presence. If we are patient, and humble, and let patience have its perfect work that we may be wholly equipped lacking nothing- He may allow us to walk in those works created from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them.

If we cease from our own works, and enter His rest, and cease striving, and know that He Is God, we might get to see His glory manifest in the earth right where we live.

If we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God he will lift us up, in due time- whether we are like Abraham, who saw it from a distance but went to his grave in the faith of his vision without touching it, or Moses who stood on the mountain and looked over the promised land, even as he passed the baton on to Joshua, never to walk on that land himself- but THATS OK!

Faith is the SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR! Our faith is embracing the reality as we hold onto Him, even if we pass in seeming invisibility, we carry this treasure in earthen vessels, and everyone of us who dies in faith tears another little tear in the veil that covers all the people, and one day the heavens will roll back like a scroll and His glory will flood the earth and we will be revealed with Him in glory.

If He puts His sickle in the earth he will harvest both wheat and tares. Only the angels will see the difference. They will gather His elect from the four winds of heaven, and the tares will be gathered, bound and burned in the fire. Death releases everyone from time into something else. But God will have His way. His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven, because Jesus prayed in faith believing. He believed because He had seen it already. He was Alpha and He could see all the way through to Omega, knowing that the hope of all creation would be fulfilled in the earth and in heaven through the blood of His cross.

I believe the body will be unified in one Spirit on the earth before He comes, a giant messenger standing with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea, head in the heavens, clothed in the clouds, uttering 7 thunders with a little book in His hands. A little book bearing the everlasting gospel. The euaggelion. The good news.

There are beautiful feet coming, a generation of servants who will spend it on Him and on beautifying the world with their blood, filling up the sufferings of Jesus Christ, many sons unto glory- and some of them are on this forum, seeing the glory of the Lord from a distance and staying warm by the coals of the fire that He blows on from time to time until a flame busts out of the smoldering glow and the smoke of our prayers for the world and for the ecclesia of God.

There is no cause to fear or fret. He comes on the clouds in thick darkness with thunder rolling and lightning flashing from His right hand. Yet even so He know the numbers of the hairs on every head and sees each sparrow that falls and cares beyond all our reasoning for everyone He ever created out of the womb.

Its just too much to encompass! :o)

Isnt that GREAT!

If I could define it and explain it down to the jot and tittle- HOW SMALL IT WOULD BE!

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?  For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

[marie glen]

a God who tortures? forever..?

:Chinscratch: surely(?) God can only be perfect, or he too would fade, fall apart, disintegrate, pass away...

(surely?) He created evil (albeit indirectly) by endowing thinking ability to man and angel.. Since He opened that Pandora's box, (surely?) He built the rescue (for all) into His works from the very foundation (beginning).

..."the firstborn of all creation.." and crown..

"The lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow.." (Isaiah 11:7) He will be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28) "Behold I make all things new.." Rev 21:3 "God is the savior of all.." (1 Tim 4:10) "If I (Jesus) be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross) "I will draw all to me." (Jn 12:32) "All the ends of the earth.. will turn to the Lord and all the families of the nations shall worship/joy before Him." (Ps 22:27)

Our habits of thinking are well worn neuron paths we have fallen into. But "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become a child of God, even to them that believe on his name." (Jn 1:12)

...

refutations (imo:) to verses which are thought to refer to a hell:

gehenna.. to simplify was the city dump where even criminals bodies were burned..

"Jesus descended to the lower part of the earth".. the dust of the grave

The "place of the dead" is still the grave..

"Angels in deepest darkness/tartarus in chains awaiting judgment" are in their despicable state and cannot reverse their course back to perfection, as they are imperfect.. they are therefor locked into judgment, aka, the results.

"Jesus by the Spirit preached to those who awaited while Noah was building the ark.." He reached out to them, not in 'hell' (for what purpose do they imagine? what with the whole forever theme going) but reached out to them via the Spirit while the ark was being built.. (Isn't that a little more logical? :doh: :faint: ) (Silly children, we humans are.)

And the lake of fire.. well, there's not really much to suggest a "forever" in the Hebrew nor the Greek.. Personally, I think some very hard cases may end up there for a duration ("aionian") [In Rev ch 19 the 'big' beast and the false prophet(teaching,theory) who are thrown alive into the lof,are institutions of mankind which are active at the time of Jesus' return, imo, that is:)

Even though all will be saved, the First Resurrection still far surpasses the 2nd -  at least for a time, anyway. The 2nd resurrection is of all those who "died, still in their sins" so they will awaken still in their imperfection. Judgment Day, not as joyful, at first, as the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.. banquet, picnic, hoedown, party.. celebration..!

"God is love" 1 Jn 4:8

A Good Prescription for all of us, at any time -  to read the writings of the disciple/apostle of love - John. The gospel of John and the books of John.
Who wrote:
"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." - 1 John 1:5

"If God be for us who can be against us!?" :dsunny: :banana: :gthumbsup: