Refuting Annihilation

[Aerex]

Hello all. I had an argument on Reddit about universalism vs annihilation. I need some guidance on how I should respond to his second post. I am going to paste here for reference.

I know this is an old thread so I apologize for necromancing. I do have some issues with your resolve against christian universalism.

No worries! I find this topic very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to respond!

You stated that we would lose your identity which I would disagree because that is the whole point that God is not pulling away people into heaven or taking away evil. He wants us to all experience evil and to suffer just like Christ. This is the lake of fire. Everyone will go through it. First it was the Christ then it was the elect and it will in turn will be everyone else.

I understand that Universalists typically believe that there will be a finite period of suffering and purification and after they die and before they spend eternity in heaven. So they will be experiencing suffering after death, but that this suffering is not the end, but exists for the purposes of restoration. What I am saying though, is that in Heaven there is no sin and everyone is living a life of the greatest possible joy. This would mean that many things, like your desires, which form an essential part of your identity, would disappear or be replaced, so I find it hard to see it as the same person, especially with Paul denying the existence of an immortal, immaterial soul

We are all learning what is good and what is evil. We are not going to forget any of it but we will come to turns with it. It just doesn't end here in this life. We have a lot to learn.

In general, I believe that in death, you do not remember your previous life. For example, the Bible says that when a man dies, his thoughts perish (Ps 146:4) and that the dead know nothing (Ecc 9). Plus, I just don't see any reason for us to have memory of this life. If we will look back on this world through Gods eyes, then it seems like we would experience the sadness, anger, and disappointment that God feels when he looks on our sin. So, it seems like we would not be having these thoughts in heaven.

Even if it is so that we can become more moral I don't see how it would require memories of this world. For example, I know cannibalism is wrong even though I have never done it myself or seen anyone else do it. It seems like this could be potentially true of all moral actions. If there is an objective morality, then it is something that we would know intrinsically, but would just choose not to follow sometimes, due to our separation from God, which would not be there in heaven.

Why would you say that we will remember this life, rather than just the lessons learned or something?

It wasnt three in the OT because it had not been revealed that is the whole point of the gospel being a mystery. Gods whole plan was to make us like him by defaming us and bringing us up from Adam to Christ -- sewn in dishonor raised in glory. None of the evil that happens in this world is a mistake. God planned it since the beginning.

I was saying that neither the idea of an eternal heaven or eternal hell is there in the Old Testament, but, in the New Testament, the idea that believers will be immortal is stated as a new idea. However, the idea that those who are not believers will go to heaven does not have this same clear announcement that we would expect. To use John 3:16 as an example, it does not say that, it is those who believe in Jesus, rather than everyone, that will become immortal through him. In the verse you mentioned (1cor 15:23), it says that Christ will be made alive, then the elect, then "those who belong to him," but does not include anyone else, nor is there any reason to believe that this includes everyone.

God had to slowly reveal truth to us because we were young and dumb and would have rejected it if he told us everything at the beginning, because it would have seemed absurd. So this gradual revelation would be to minimize our choice to reject him rather than it. I don't see any reason for him to create evil, or gradually reveal things to us if he is really the only one who controls our choices. Without free will, the problem of evil is a major problem, even if you're a Universalist.

Anihalliation makes no sense because it would serve no purpose. If man's actions are ordained by God then why destroy him if he fails. Also, doesn't scripture say that all will be raised anyway so why circumvent that again. Sounds like double work.

The purpose of annihilation would be to save us from ourselves. As Kierkegaard pointed out, the perfect life would be one where you only desire one thing, and the only desire that would be an end in itself is the desire for God, since everything else leaves us wanting more. However, we have many different desires pointing us in many different ways, causing anxiety, frustration, and many other things. If I have rejected God, then I am working towards one goal, so that I can achieve another goal, so that I can achieve another goal, and so on. If I was immortal, there would be no end goal, and my life would have no real purpose, nor would there any reason to pursue anything, as it make no difference whether I got something done today, or a thousand years from now. I would still be longing purpose in life, but would never actually find any purpose. It would be exactly the kind of misery that those who believe in an eternal hell describe. By destroying us, God is saving us from this.

Since I believe in free will, it does make sense for people to be held accountable for their actions though, and the Bible does clearly teach that we are (for example, Romans 1:20). For the question about bringing them back to life, that again would be do hold them accountable for what they have done, again, the Bible does teach it more as a punishment and wrath of God than a restoration and healing (for example: Romans 2:5-10). Although, I guess I haven't thought about this in a while, but I can't think of any place in the Bible, off the top of my head, that says that absolutely everyone will come back to life, except for revelation perhaps. Could you point some passages out to me?

What would you say about my earlier points about annihilation being the universal Christian position before Tertullian, the strong absence of universalism in the early church before Nicaea, and the inconsistencies I pointed out that would occur in Paul's writings if he taught universalism?

Thanks all.

[Ross]

G'day;
One observation;
1 Cor 15;23 Starts the point about then those who believe.... reading on further brings the point about the rest of mankind being a longer transition until Christ finally hands the kingdom to His Father.
Phil 2 Also points out that EVERY knee shall bow.
1 Tim 2;4Points out that all will be saved in due season.
I Cor Paul says that Paul planted, Apollos watered, BUT GOD makes us grow.

[Ross]

Actual study of church history reveals many arguments that have cost lives throughout  time.
Christ argued with the Pharisees and the scribes. Even said "Woe unto you, you hypocrites, you brood of vipers."
Many will say they know Christ, will do many miracles, signs, cast out demons.... Yet He NEVER knew them.
This could put off the work of Christ as futile, OR could reinforce the specifics of the cause going beyond our ability to comprehend in our current state of being.
Paul says in 1 Cor 15 "If this life was all their is to life, then we should be pitied most of all."
But the work of Christ EXCEEDS the work/consequences of Adam.
Romans 9 though to 11 states the whole reason for the differentiation between the law and grace.
Galations explains the law. Ephesians, Colossians explains the plan, Phillipians explains the love. Tim and Thess highlight the behaviour patterns for us to live by.
The mystery referred to by Paul in Ephesians also emphasises the specifics of this whole system.
If God had kept all this quiet from the generations before Paul, how could He then wipe them out for not believing? This would emphasise a tough God Who HOPES He got it right. Salvation of ALL actually means Christ achieved what He came to do- save sinners. He did not fail at any point.
One of the best examples, for me, as to the success of His works; if we are to be annihilated if we don't believe, then Christ would have to be annihilated to pay for us. If the cost of sin is eternal condemnation, then Christ would have to be eternally condemned for us to pay the price in full.

[rosered]

Actual study of church history reveals many arguments that have cost lives throughout  time.
Christ argued with the Pharisees and the scribes. Even said "Woe unto you, you hypocrites, you brood of vipers."
Many will say they know Christ, will do many miracles, signs, cast out demons.... Yet He NEVER knew them.
This could put off the work of Christ as futile, OR could reinforce the specifics of the cause going beyond our ability to comprehend in our current state of being.
Paul says in 1 Cor 15 "If this life was all their is to life, then we should be pitied most of all."
But the work of Christ EXCEEDS the work/consequences of Adam.
Romans 9 though to 11 states the whole reason for the differentiation between the law and grace.
Galations explains the law. Ephesians, Colossians explains the plan, Phillipians explains the love. Tim and Thess highlight the behaviour patterns for us to live by.
The mystery referred to by Paul in Ephesians also emphasises the specifics of this whole system.
If God had kept all this quiet from the generations before Paul, how could He then wipe them out for not believing? This would emphasise a tough God Who HOPES He got it right. Salvation of ALL actually means Christ achieved what He came to do- save sinners. He did not fail at any point.
One of the best examples, for me, as to the success of His works; if we are to be annihilated if we don't believe, then Christ would have to be annihilated to pay for us. If the cost of sin is eternal condemnation, then Christ would have to be eternally condemned for us to pay the price in full.

  Love this Ross !!
  Aand  Know that  the lack in the    imposter spirit   is the Love of God , if they   do all this  without Love  they do not know God  nor are of God  at all.....

   Now they are after  image and power and prestige ,  a  glory

Anyone can be fooled by this type at first ,,,,,

  And to PUT TOTAL   TRUST in GOD  only ...   sounds  easy but is hard to do when you are  searching   for Him in signs and wonders

  It says the Only way to please God is by faith  and its substance ,  Jesus Christ  is His name ,born from above ,  we can only obtain this though the Holy Spirit    in my opinion
   any other way is actually play acting ...

  and still earthly sensual and devilish   in nature ..

God will do as HE SAID   for this we  have no doubt   ..

  We do have lots to learn     Aerex !!! :dsunny:

[marie glen]

..whoa.. scratching head!

The thing which caught my eye is his idea that there will be such a disconnect between this life and God's ages to ages kingdom... To me, such is very illogical.. As what would be the point of this life? (In His perfect intent?)

If His intent is to simply program us not to sin/"miss the mark", why wouldn't He have simply done that? (from the beginning?)

Psalm 146:4 ..at death one's thoughts perish - perish is H6 "properly, to wander"
             - how interesting! to wander (from God, is to perish! imo?)

"In the grave wither thou goest, there is no thought nor doing" - if we conclude this means thought perishes never to rise, then all doing also perishes never to rise..? In the grave, it seems to me, our thoughts and doings cease. Emphasis being "in the grave" (imo:)

I personally think evil came about when God endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. To me God 'created' evil indirectly - but not by accident of course!

I think people do have difficulty with the idea of God created evil.. God inspired Hitler? That is not logical.. nor biblical, imo, as "God tempts no man, but his own desires lead him astray"

So where did these wrong desires come from? The ability to reason, surely(?) includes - though so highly limited, thank Goodness - the ability to make choices. "I set before thee this day life and death"

I think the idea that all are mere automatons, doing 'good' and evil as directed only by God is an extreme.. all paradoxes surely, are merely poles of the same thing and need to be properly balanced..

I think of God as both Life, itself, and as Perfection. With thinking ability a whole new world, er tree, of possibilities came about.. To think, say or do anything - no matter how tiny - which differs from what God chooses, is to become imperfect-the opposite of life. What, I wonder, was God's other option(s)? No rational creatures? ever? stick with universe, worlds, animals, infants?

I agree with him that we are being saved from ourselves, but more impersonally, I believe we are being saved from imperfection and He is writing and deeply engraving upon every heart and mind the full understanding of good from evil, which to my mind is also life from death/nonlife. All in heaven and earth will fully understand that to wander away from God who iS life, is to "perish"-nonlife. And without God's intervention that is where all of us would remain. In nonlife when our bodies fail and life perishes. How wonderful that HIs intent is to lose none! :HeartThrob:

I believe Judgment 'Day' will be a great  day of review for all. All of history is a sad, sad (and horrible) drama.. But what is said to be the best teacher? Oh yes, I believe all in heaven and earth will fully understand - go not that way! For to "wander" from Him in tought, word or deed, can onLy ever result in a wisp of self destructive smoke.. Apocalypse-the unveiling of true from untrue, life from death/nonlife.

The abyss of darkness (Rev ch 9) I believe is the bottomless pit of potential (evil) which thinking ability can be.. and currently is. There is no end to how low evil, and any can go. For there is only ONE source of Goodness. Yahweh Himself. "Life age-during" - He, and He only, imo, is eternal. "The eternal." Life is only in conjunction with Him. Apart from Him (would be) annihilation. :smile:

Why did He create the universe and man and woman not only after the first (bound to occur) rebel thought occurred, but after it had matured into outright revolt and sedition? Didn't He know what would happen? :laughing7:

Of course He did! Perhaps it was so we all, in heaven and earth, would take this unavoidable journey/lesson, all together, at once.. otherwise, perhaps one would "wander" away now.. another later.. and another still later.. taking virtually 'for ever'.. (Unavoidable, if theres' to be thinking ability, that is. Imo)

The idea that we cease to be our self in the Kingdom, to me, is just not at all logical. I had a discussion a long time ago with a gal who figured "the former things will not come to mind" means we will not remember any of our loved ones in the kingdom - how sad and lonely that would be, yes, lonely.. If God wanted one lump of intelligence and being, with no individuality, I daresay He could have easily done that without the horrors of history.

"The former things will not come to mind nor come up into the heart" I believe means wrong choices (desires) will not come to mind nor rise up from the heart.. Having witnessed all, and experienced some, of the results/horrors/fires of "wandering". All, totally "sealed" heart and mind.

Besides.. man(kind) is made in the image of God.. and He is very creative. Also, He made individuals and said "behold it is" (was) "all good". :Peace2: :smile:

[marie glen]

P.S. - in his quoting of 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 - He left out the third harvest. (yes?)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24 then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:22-24&version=NIV;NKJV;KJV;AMPC;YLT - five versions of 1 Cor 15:22-24

[rosered]

The thing which caught my eye is his idea that there will be such a disconnect between this life and God's ages to ages kingdom... To me, such is very illogical.. As what would be the point of this life? (In His perfect intent?)

If His intent is to simply program us not to sin/"miss the mark", why wouldn't He have simply done that? (from the beginning?)

Psalm 146:4 ..at death one's thoughts perish - perish is H6 "properly, to wander"
             - how interesting! to wander (from God, is to perish! imo?)

"In the grave wither thou goest, there is no thought nor doing" - if we conclude this means thought perishes never to rise, then all doing also perishes never to rise..? In the grave, it seems to me, our thoughts and doings cease. Emphasis being "in the grave" (imo:)

I personally think evil came about when God endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. To me God 'created' evil indirectly - but not by accident of course!

I think people do have difficulty with the idea of God created evil.. God inspired Hitler? That is not logical.. nor biblical, imo, as "God tempts no man, but his own desires lead him astray"

So where did these wrong desires come from? The ability to reason, surely(?) includes - though so highly limited, thank Goodness - the ability to make choices. "I set before thee this day life and death"

I think the idea that all are mere automatons, doing 'good' and evil as directed only by God is an extreme.. all paradoxes surely, are merely poles of the same thing and need to be properly balanced..

I think of God as both Life, itself, and as Perfection. With thinking ability a whole new world, er tree, of possibilities came about.. To think, say or do anything - no matter how tiny - which differs from what God chooses, is to become imperfect-the opposite of life. What, I wonder, was God's other option(s)? No rational creatures? ever? stick with universe, worlds, animals, infants?

  Hi Marie
  I am convinced that God  created the  tree of knowledge of good and evil    in His garden  of Eden .....

  and that is where evil comes from     ,  right out of eating that tree  and where the seeds multiplied   ,     when Eve ate of    it and gave to her husband  Adam  ,  ONE FLESH    , that God made  as Adam   and both were called Adam in the Image of God in GEN 1      NOT  SEPARATE   , IT WAS GOD WHO SEPARATED     ADAM       

AND FORMED EVE  out of Adam   in Gen 2   and  within those seeds  come     mankind   the type of Cain  , and than was Abel the breath /spirit  whom was a shepherd of sheep  , sounds familiar     


Cain was  a  gardener   and tiller of the earth       , what was Cain going to produce out of the earth that was NOT tainted with good and evil mix   as sin is error / missing the mark ?

  I do believe this is why Cain's offering was rejected         and Abel s accepted     because it was not of the earth  , but was by faith   in the spiritual nature that all good would come from   to perfect fruition   [this very pattern  found in Christ  Jesus  the perfect had come ]      and not evil  at all but come in the likeness of  sinful flesh ,,

  this would also explain why     Abel's blood cried  up out of the earth speaking   , He was the first sacrifice  of good  for  evil doing  from mankind , a breath /spirit   from a soul / life     BY FAITH  ABEL still speaks   TODAY  ,though he is   physically   dead  HEB 11 hear what the Spirit is saying ..

  Cains would have been accepted if     he would have shown faith and   done what is right in Gods sight   loved !!, not  EVIL        If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."

  Not as cain's offering  was evil   because he was abiding in DEATH ... NO LOVE no LIFE
   You are of your father  the devil   John 8 The Children of the Devil
...43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.


1 John 3 Gods sight Love One Another
11For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.. 14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.

He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him....

  The HOLY SPIRIT  IS LIFE AND LIGHT AND LOVE    this is to me those whom     are joined already to the FATHER & SON  as  those already with them   and  even those whom are mortal   in the earth    and yet  by faith have   this   LOVING  LIGHT OF LIFE in them .... :HeartThrob:

And death is not reigning in them any longer       nor   the law of  sin and death  is ruling over them  in the  weakness of sinful flesh  , judging according to the flesh     , we KNOW IT IS EVIL and no good thing in in the flesh      ....    It is the Spirit and Light  and Love of Christ that constrains us  , ruling over us NOW   Romans 8

No Condemnation in Christ
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,...


Stay positive   !!!!  faith is a substance !!,  IT HAS good merit   meaning   something that deserves or justifies a reward or judgment  ,     that pleases GOD !!!

2 corth 5 We are Christ's Ambassadors  !!!!!!!!!!!


...13For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.


14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;


15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf....Abraham Receives the Promise
...18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,...

Abraham considered his body as good as dead already  by faith    , so HE COULD LIVE IN THE LIFE AND LIGHT AND SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD  though  the SON OF GOD , Jesus Christ is His name  !!  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  YOUR  BODY IS DEAD TO THE WORLD BUT ALIVE IN CHRIST !!!!   SO YOUR BODY IS DEAD TO SIN /ERROR and alive in CHRIST ... SPIRIT &TRUTH .. LOVE IS THAT BOND of perfection    :HeartThrob:

1John 4 Testing the Spirits
...5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

   The world is the tree of knowledge of good and evil   , temporary   dwelling place , pray for    Gods will to be done on earth as it is in heaven , He will give you the new heavens and earth         !!     all things are made new in CHRIST  BODY  ,  eat my body and  drink my blood that you may have LIFE IN YOU ...   



    GOD is the tree of Life forever


Ephesians 2New Living Translation (NLT)

Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.

But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Don't forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called "uncircumcised heathens" by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.

For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.

He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us. :HeartThrob:

So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God's holy people. You are members of God's family. Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord. Through him you Gentiles are also being made part of this dwelling where God lives by his Spirit.


Clearly we have much to rejoice   about !!   spiritual beings  made alive in Christ .. :cloud9:

[marie glen]

..one day, to me, it seemed like God sent down the thought of a question.. "How would you create an enduring/age to age/ eternal and un-breakable paradise/perfection?"

So sometimes i like to pass that question along.. I think it is very intriguing. Just how would one go about creating an un-breakable paradise/perfection? is there more than one way which would work?

"Why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" ...because Yahweh can onLy be honest..? :gsmile:

[Ross]

 "Why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?"

Good question.
Ephesians states that "before the world began, I knew you."
That was before the eating of that very tree of knowledge.
God knew that Adam and Eve would partake. That must have been God's intention.
Angels do not eat from that tree. Therefore they will not be as we are to be in the coming ages. Hence, since we will be judging angels, as Paul says in 1 Cor 6, we need to know that difference of good and evil.
Many types of evil are around about us. Mis-use of power a major one of those. We have man exposing the problems caused when power is for evil, not good. The sacrifice of Christ covers all the errors made during this time of flesh in which we live.
All necessary to stimulate the concept for the need of true equality. This is only through ONE source of life. Christ!
To train man with that much detail is intense. To then wipe us out when we have been shown right from wrong would then make the process obsolete and ineffective.
As I mentioned, we are to be above angels just like our Big brother and saviour Christ. So we need to know everything. Great we have ONE teacher- Christ; and One mediator so that there will be the correct perspective for all mankind as they are shown in their appointed time.

[marie glen]

To train man with that much detail is intense. To then wipe us out when we have been shown right from wrong would then make the process obsolete and ineffective.

Aha! you said that perfectly! (imo) :smile:
(surely? since mankind witnesses, and has lived through, such horrors which make up human history, at least it should all be worth something/greatly used..)

As I mentioned, we are to be above angels just like our Big brother and saviour Christ. So we need to know everything. Great we have ONE teacher- Christ; and One mediator so that there will be the correct perspective for all mankind as they are shown in their appointed time.

[Ross]

 " (surely? since mankind witnesses, and has lived through, such horrors which make up human history, at least it should all be worth something/greatly used..) "


To me, those horrors have exposed the repercussions of being selfish. As an example I looked at the three leaders before the 1st world war; the leaders of England, Germany, and Russia were all related; the number of people killed was awful. That seems to expose the consequences of bad choices and negotiations.

I.M.O the memory is not pleasant, yet when explained completely what happened and why, then the events make sense.
Hebrews 12 says no discipline is pleasant at the time but develops our character.
Ephesians 2;7 " to demonstrate in the ages to come the incomparable riches of His grace in kindness to us in Christ Jesus."
Focussing on just one age without an after-life chokes the logic of this development plan. The focus on things instead of people shortens the outlook.


To be a judge you have to know every detail; one also has to remember the specifics; then there is the application for the particular situation; guilty, or not guilty; then the sentence/correction/judgment; The training for lawyers and judges is long term- ergo our training for the coming positions is long term and needs to be remembered completely in context and correctness.
Add in the factor of removing the plank from our own eye before trying to remove the speck from a brother's eye, to me, reminds me of being truly humble. Christ demonstrating that principle by being made a little lower than angels before being raised to the position above them.
Phil 2;6 " Who although He was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of man He humbled Himself, being obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Would seem to be why we are in lowliness of mind to consider others more than ourselves, not looking out to our own interests but the interests of others.
Part of the learning for the ages to come I.M.O