ET itself vs. the systemization of it

[Graph1159]

Despite my belief in UR, I personally think that many Scriptures, in and of themselves, allow the interpretation of ET. My belief in UR is a deduction drawn from passages in the NT where Christ's accomplishment for mankind is expounded upon (ex. Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15, Colossians 1). But, the Bible does not seem to "close the door" on ET in the way UR commentaries often claim. Evidence of this can be seen in the early church era which had a mixture of ET and UR commentaries. The UR implications of various Scriptures was acknowledged (unlike Fundamentalism today), but from what I have seen, the UR church fathers were not "anti-ET." From my observations, the difference between ET in the early church and ET today is that, in modern Christianity, ET has been "systematized" into Christian theology.

Whenever people try to systematically explain or justify ET, things go awry rapidly in my opinion. Such endeavors produce ideas that lack Scriptural support and are sometimes outright contradictory to the Bible.

For example, to defend God's love in the midst of ET, free will is taken to such an extreme that Christians essentially believe God's hands are tied. This idea is in sharp contrast to Dan. 4:35, Isa. 46:10, and Rom. 9 which speak of the sovereignty of God over humans' lives.

I also hear people say that God's love requires the actual possibility of ET; otherwise, God would be forcing a relationship on people and no true relationship could exist. I do not know of any Scripture to back this claim.

Another problematic claim is that Christ's redemptive work does not, by itself, actually do anything, but that it only makes salvation "available" to those who choose it. Again, I do not know of any Scripture to back up this claim.

Calvinists also make some strange systemizations that lack a Scriptural backing. For instance, their claim that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect. Or, in the case of 4-Point Calvinism, that salvation is available to all but only effectual for the elect.

Thus, I think the real issue with ET is that attempts to support it involve the introduction of unbiblical concepts, as opposed to any inherent issue with the doctrine itself.

What do you think about this?

[eaglesway]

Systemization in itself is evidence of of "towers and strongholds" exalting themselves against the true knowledge of God.

ET has been systemized because it is a foundation of demonic influence over the prisons in which believers languish, oppressed by errors that are not just "wrong" in some intellectual way- but have real spiritual consequences upon those who are under them and are held in bondage by them.

The same can be said of Calvinism(5 points theology), Arminianism, Catholicism and Pentecostalism.

Some prisons are worse than others but all prisons are to be torn down by the true knowledge of God(Not one stone will be left standing upon another).

UR is a foundation of the true knowledge of God and Paul was fighting those pagan influences through which ET entered the church- from the beginning. The fact that there were early commentaries proposing ET should come as no surprise, since there were false teachers circulating in the churches right from the beginning.

So in my opinion there is no separating ET from the systems in which it is entrenched. And there is no separating systems from their false teachings as if they could exist without them. It is by these false teachings they keep men enslaved to fear, condemnation and self-righteousness.

ET is systematized because it is at the core of the tangled web of lies that blinds men to the glorious gospel of The Lord Jesus, the Messiah and Savior of all.

We have weapons that are "mighty through God" for the pulling down of strongholds and fortresses that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God, but that does not mean we will be believed, otherwise there would be no martyrs or any need for "weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left" or putting on the "whole armor of God".

It is not for us to judge people. It is for us to tell the truth without reserve and trust God for the result- knowing that we will be hated for the word of our testimony. I personally believe ET is at the center of most of the perversions of scripture that exist. If you think about it most of them developed as ways to justify ET, for instance.

Arminianism. "God cannot save all because free will is the most important part of creation.

Calvanism. "God cannot save all because He only planned to save a few, from the beginning."

Catholicism. "God cannot save all because He only grants salvation to those blessed with communion from us."

Fundamentalism. "God cannot save all because He only saves people who believe what we believe and act the way we say."

So I agree with the idea that systematizing false doctrine increases its devastating power("By your traditions you make the word of God of no effect")

But the false doctrine is what gives the system power and holds it together(this wisdom is not from above, but is earthly, psychological, demonic-James 3) If certain "early church" commentaries support it, it is because they were among those who had been overturned by pagan philosophy on the way to confusion- "blind leaders of the blind". They were jailed jailors expounding the principles of their prison bars and counting up the blocks in their prison walls and serving up the sums as if they were the unshakable word of God- and they still do. Some do it blindly. Some do it to get better prison food.

Me, I'm just glad I escaped- even if it means I get a target on my back. :o)

[marie glen]

I find it interesting to think about and compare, the letter to the Ephesians which was very spiritual and not merely milk, yet not so long later, in the letter to the Ephesians, they had lost their first love. And I heard - whether true or not - that it was the church of Ephesus which first spoke of fiery torment in the (an) after life. [Note to self-keep love alive!]


"God cannot save all because He only planned to save a few, from the beginning." - How cold, heartless, remote, that makes Him seem.. :sigh:

[Patinak]

[Note to self-keep love alive!]

:thumbsup:
Would make a good signature!

[Seth]

Do the untranslated scriptures really allow for an interpretation of ET or does ET need to be read into the text when the translation issues are addressed?

[Shev]

In my opinion, ET is assumed from misinterpreted parables or symbols such as Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, whereas UR is taken from plain statement of fact, such as 1 Corinthians 15. It is interesting that Paul never mentions "hell" - not once! - and indeed, the only people who mention Gehenna (Jesus and James) were speaking/writing to a Jewish audience, ie those who knew of the literal place of Gehenna and also what it symbolized.

[micah7:9]

For myself and through the works of Ray Prinzing, I read the Bible as a positive book. For so long before the Lord dealt with me I read the Word with a negative outlook stemming mainly from the OT and all the mayhem, now when I read I am given to see a positive view and not from a negative view. And yes it is slow and difficult and much re reading and prayer for discernment. That's just where I am now and am much more at rest.  :2c: :dsunny:

[Graph1159]

Do the untranslated scriptures really allow for an interpretation of ET or does ET need to be read into the text when the translation issues are addressed?

This is a very good question and an issue where I think more discussion is needed among UR advocates. My view is that the words olam and aion are intended to get the reader to look as far into the future as has been revealed thus far. So, whether such words (in reference to punishment) denote endlessness depends on whether you think UR is a Bible-wide message. I personally do not see UR in the Old Testament or the earlier New Testament preaching. I think the OT passages used to support UR are actually referring to a time of redemption on earth, for people living during that time. I think this is the same time period that Jesus spoke of in passages such as Matthew 25, and that Peter spoke of in Acts 3:21. The Jews of the Biblical era probably viewed this era as eternal; thus, aeonian punishment of that era could have meant eternal punishment/annihilation to them.

Note that, in the initial declaration of the Gospel in Acts 2, it is not mentioned that Jesus died for our sins. It is in some of the later NT writings that the redemption work of Christ through His death and resurrection, for all mankind, is expounded upon. These writings, for me, are what constitute the basis for UR. Furthermore, the age(s) of Christ's reign with the saints on the earth and in the heavens cannot be endless because 1 Cor. 15:22-28 states that eventually Christ's reign will end and God will be All in All.

My concern is that some UR commentaries make hard-and-fast, anti-ET statements that are contextually questionable and used by the Fundamentalist community to construct a straw man. That's why I have thought that, instead of an upfront, anti-ET approach, a better approach to UR apologetics would be to illustrate how the systemization of ET produces unbiblical conclusions. Many people have confused these systemizations with Scripture itself due to the deception that Eaglesway pointed out. I think that unmasking those contradictions is the best first step in presenting UR.

What do you think about all of this?

Btw I renamed the thread slightly because I thought the original title was too long and confusing.

[rosered]

  Hi Graph and all ,

   I do believe that we fail to see past our ''present  condition '' we  do not  notice    when scriptures speak  they are   not speaking to us as mortals

  But the language is very  descriptive  and   being a former  et believer     trapped in Babylon    .......

  I never realized all the   things made up up of us being more than  just one single   vessel   

  For instance    ,   Jesus calls  His   followers sheep   

  But also a city  set on a hill   in one scripture .

  and a house     , when we are called  a house  we are divided in our selves  that being more than one thing occupying it  , like the 7 spirits in one house  etc .. 

  These parables  give us  an ability to see that we are made up of many things   , all created by GOD .

In et   we see that we are either or   one thing or the other  ,  considered  ''good '' or'' evil  ''

  The reality is we are both   and mixed   by many things that  must be    ''sifted ''   and burned out by the may trials are errors   this life [age duration ] is set the course for   

  You are the temple of the Living God , until you see the temple as more than just an image of  a building in your mind  , you will struggle to understand the  language of the Bible        Where God dwells and the LAMB  is the Light of it ..

   An excellent example   was King Nebuchadnezzar  when   the watchers     sent judgment on his head       ,  He was that head of gold in the idol    [Image of the man of sin]      Dan 4   His kingdom was destroyed   but He was that tree  that was cut down  , but allowed to come back   from destruction   after the humbling    work of God in   Him and  until He glorified God  as ruler of all  mankind ....

  God bless ...

   

[GodIsLove]

Yes, Rose, a big problem I see with the church system is the failure to see the SYMBOLISM in the scripture and it is taken so literally and so black and white. The temple is us, our body, not a building. The fire is symbolic of God and used to purify, not to torture. Etc etc...

I heard a story once about a Christian talking to a rabbi and the Christian said something about taking the bible literally and the rabbi said "I never thought of it that way." Yes the bible contains factual historical accounts but Christiany has taken the bible to be read literally to the point that all symbolism and spiritual meaning is lost.

I was in a Pentecostal-ish church once and the preacher said "the bible says that Jesus is coming back on a white horse, so HE'S COMING BACK ON A WHITE HORSE" (like we should keep an eye out for a man on a white horse because that will be Jesus) and I sat there thinking, with literal fire in his eyes, real blood on his robe, and a real sword coming out of his mouth??

[rosered]

Yes, Rose, a big problem I see with the church system is the failure to see the SYMBOLISM in the scripture and it is taken so literally and so black and white. The temple is us, our body, not a building. The fire is symbolic of God and used to purify, not to torture. Etc etc...

I heard a story once about a Christian talking to a rabbi and the Christian said something about taking the bible literally and the rabbi said "I never thought of it that way." Yes the bible contains factual historical accounts but Christiany has taken the bible to be read literally to the point that all symbolism and spiritual meaning is lost.

I was in a Pentecostal-ish church once and the preacher said "the bible says that Jesus is coming back on a white horse, so HE'S COMING BACK ON A WHITE HORSE" (like we should keep an eye out for a man on a white horse because that will be Jesus) and I sat there thinking, with literal fire in his eyes, real blood on his robe, and a real sword coming out of his mouth??

:thumbsup:   

[Seth]

This is a very good question and an issue where I think more discussion is needed among UR advocates. My view is that the words olam and aion are intended to get the reader to look as far into the future as has been revealed thus far. So, whether such words (in reference to punishment) denote endlessness depends on whether you think UR is a Bible-wide message

I believe the words aion and olam are not a reference to unlimited time to start with. So translating it as "eternal" would be one of the first unbiblical conclusions I would challenge. I would also challenge the definition of aionios zoe as being identical in meaning to immortality. The "Zoe" may be our source of immortality but that doesn't make it identical to the meaning of immortality, just as the source of a lake might be a river, doesn't mean that the lake and river are the same thing.

[Graph1159]

I do believe that we fail to see past our "present  condition " we  do not  notice    when scriptures speak  they are   not speaking to us as mortals

Do you think that the original audience would have viewed the Scriptures as not speaking to us as mortals? I am thinking of passages such as Psalm 22:27:

"All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him."

When I first came to believe in UR, I included Scriptures such as this one in my defense of the doctrine. However, later on I wasn't sure if the verse really encompasses the idea of salvation beyond this life. I felt like that might be reading something into the text that the Psalmist did not intend.

If the Scriptures do not speak to us as mortals, does the text itself contain the idea of humans as immortal, spiritual beings? Or, is this a concept that has to be spiritually discerned?

[Seth]

I think it's dubious to consider too much what the original audience thought as a general rule I have for myself. For example, I could say that the Jews in Jesus day thought that the Messaiah would free them from Roman rule. Then I could go back and interpret all OT prophecies through that lense and end up making the same error the Pharisees and common people made.

[rosered]

I do believe that we fail to see past our "present  condition " we  do not  notice    when scriptures speak  they are   not speaking to us as mortals

Do you think that the original audience would have viewed the Scriptures as not speaking to us as mortals? I am thinking of passages such as Psalm 22:27:

"All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him."

When I first came to believe in UR, I included Scriptures such as this one in my defense of the doctrine. However, later on I wasn't sure if the verse really encompasses the idea of salvation beyond this life. I felt like that might be reading something into the text that the Psalmist did not intend.

If the Scriptures do not speak to us as mortals, does the text itself contain the idea of humans as immortal, spiritual beings? Or, is this a concept that has to be spiritually discerned?

Hi Graph ,
  I do believe that  could mean ''all the ends of our earth ''  ,   and Know the very reason why Jesus Christ come in the flesh was to show us  in the here now  , how HE has  brought salvation   without end 

Most forget the flesh profits NOTHING ...  When we judge  we judge according to the flesh   and that is useless    futile   .. It was temporary   , even the days of our flesh has been cut short  in righteousness  for our sakes       , that was since the times of the Psalm with the covenant of David      , it was Gods mercy!


    Psalms 90  Lord, You have Been Our Dwelling Place
...9For all our days have declined in Your fury; We have finished our years like a sigh.

10As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away.

11Who understands the power of Your anger And Your fury, according to the fear that is due You?...
  fear
Strong's H3374 - yir'ah
יִרְאָה
Transliteration
yir'ah
Pronunciation
yir·ä' (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From יָרֵא (H3373)
TWOT Reference
907b
Outline of Biblical Usage
fear, terror, fearing

fear, terror

awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)

fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety

revered

We are in the dark about God being flesh and blood   that fear  and terror of not knowing , it is the LIGHT that is the Wisdom of God  that we learn  to be in AWE and reverence Him  Jesus Christ is  teaching  though the HOLY SPIRIT  union .. connection

[rosered]

I think it's dubious to consider too much what the original audience thought as a general rule I have for myself. For example, I could say that the Jews in Jesus day thought that the Messaiah would free them from Roman rule. Then I could go back and interpret all OT prophecies through that lense and end up making the same error the Pharisees and common people made.

  Good point Seth ,
  It was Jesus [WORD OF GOD made flesh ] addressing the religious leaders of that day  , that they were  in sin/ error  and  that  they indeed   were the  blind teaching the blind  and stumbling  and scattering .  He come down from   a higher  form to a lower state  of becoming flesh and blood  ,  proving that He also comes in our flesh  as SPIRIT &TRUTH  , This is how every eye will see Him , it says  only the pure in heart can see hIM though ...  Matt 5

    There is none righteous no not one there is none that understands    , some scriptures proving that  none can come to God on their own  , and it would be by faith that any would  please Him   TILL   CHRIST COME  in the fulness of time .

Romans 5:6
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Philippians 2:7
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

1 Timothy 2:6
who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.


we now witness the same  message ....... the testimony of Jesus Christ Gods Word .

Psalm 14:3

They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.
Romans 3:10-12

as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
Job 14:4

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.
Isaiah 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 64:6

We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isaiah 59:13-15

transgressing, and denying the Lord, and turning back from following our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart lying words. Justice is turned back, and righteousness stands far away; for truth has stumbled in the public squares, and uprightness cannot enter. Truth is lacking, and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. The Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no justice.
Ephesians 2:3

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
2 Corinthians 7:1

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

Romans 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ezekiel 36:25

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Isaiah 59:7-8

Their feet run to evil, and they are swift to shed innocent blood; their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their highways. The way of peace they do not know, and there is no justice in their paths; they have made their roads crooked; no one who treads on them knows peace.
Ecclesiastes 7:29

See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.
Psalm 143:2

Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.
Psalm 58:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Psalm 38:5

My wounds stink and fester because of my foolishness,
Psalm 14:1

To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Job 15:16

how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!
2 Peter 2:13-15

suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
Jeremiah 2:13

for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.
Psalm 119:176
I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek your servant, for I do not forget your commandments.


Deuteronomy 1:35

'Not one of these men of this evil generation shall see the good land that I swore to give to your fathers,
Exodus 12:30

And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians. And there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where someone was not dead.
Exodus 8:31

And the Lord did as Moses asked, and removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; not one remained.


  All these  above show the natural nature of man  without   KNOWING God  being in sin /error

And just as one is born naturally  from being in the womb of darkness and is birthed ,  to seeing in the natural and  hearing and  understanding   , one is also born again of spiritual  nature that  being in the womb   of darkness   is birthed    and begins to see and hears and understands 

  All is of God  and to His glory ..... 

[sheila]

...tell no man.....for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but the Father in heaven.

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:   :dsunny:

[Graph1159]

Indeed, it is true that the original audience of Scripture may have not been spiritually enlightened, so their natural interpretations should be approached with caution.

Also, when I look at how the apostles themselves used Old Testament writings to support their teachings on the Gospel or the life of Christ, I often think that many modern preachers would disapprove of their use of Scripture were it not in the Bible. The art of systematic theology and contextual analysis are helpful but they do have limitations.

[guest5685]

  Hi Graph and all ,

   I do believe that we fail to see past our "present  condition " we  do not  notice    when scriptures speak  they are   not speaking to us as mortals

  But the language is very  descriptive  and   being a former  et believer     trapped in Babylon    .......

  I never realized all the   things made up up of us being more than  just one single   vessel   

  For instance    ,   Jesus calls  His   followers sheep   

  But also a city  set on a hill   in one scripture .

  and a house     , when we are called  a house  we are divided in our selves  that being more than one thing occupying it  , like the 7 spirits in one house  etc .. 

  These parables  give us  an ability to see that we are made up of many things   , all created by GOD .

In et   we see that we are either or   one thing or the other  ,  considered  "good " or" evil  "

  The reality is we are both   and mixed   by many things that  must be    "sifted "   and burned out by the may trials are errors   this life [age duration ] is set the course for   

  You are the temple of the Living God , until you see the temple as more than just an image of  a building in your mind  , you will struggle to understand the  language of the Bible        Where God dwells and the LAMB  is the Light of it ..

   An excellent example   was King Nebuchadnezzar  when   the watchers     sent judgment on his head       ,  He was that head of gold in the idol    [Image of the man of sin]      Dan 4   His kingdom was destroyed   but He was that tree  that was cut down  , but allowed to come back   from destruction   after the humbling    work of God in   Him and  until He glorified God  as ruler of all  mankind ....

  God bless ...

   

Excellent Rose  :thumbsup:  It's amazing how we seem to go through the process of humbling just as King Nebuchadnezzar and find Grace not only for ourselves but for all others as well. TRUELY AMAZING GRACE  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Psalm 22:27:

"All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him."

When I first came to believe in UR, I included Scriptures such as this one in my defense of the doctrine. However, later on I wasn't sure if the verse really encompasses the idea of salvation beyond this life. I felt like that might be reading something into the text that the Psalmist did not intend.

There's so many psalms which speak of David's and others "enemies" and how they compassed him.. But when I read those lines, I think of how spiritual enemies (pursue) and compass..

i don't consider so much the psalmists intent when writing, as the Spirit's intent when inspiring the writing.. just my  :2c:
        :Peace2: and God bless..

[rosered]

   It's amazing how we seem to go through the process of humbling just as King Nebuchadnezzar and find Grace not only for ourselves but for all others as well. TRUELY AMAZING GRACE  :dsunny:

  Amen ,,,He1 My Heart  !!

It is by grace we are saved   , not of ourselves,, it is the gift of God !
  I do believe     the gift of Jesus Christ is all   fullness of ONE BODY, ONE HOPE ,ONE BAPTISM ,ONE LORD   ...  ONE SPIRIT ,  ALL HIM     Gathering into His own     :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Do the untranslated scriptures really allow for an interpretation of ET or does ET need to be read into the text when the translation issues are addressed?

ET needs to be read into the text when the translation issues are addressed!

In my opinion, ET is assumed from misinterpreted parables or symbols such as Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, whereas UR is taken from plain statement of fact, such as 1 Corinthians 15. It is interesting that Paul never mentions "hell" - not once! - and indeed, the only people who mention Gehenna (Jesus and James) were speaking/writing to a Jewish audience, ie those who knew of the literal place of Gehenna and also what it symbolized.

     :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Great point! and  :iagree:

An excellent example   was King Nebuchadnezzar  when   the watchers     sent judgment on his head       ,  He was that head of gold in the idol    [Image of the man of sin]      Dan 4   His kingdom was destroyed   but He was that tree  that was cut down  , but allowed to come back   from destruction   after the humbling    work of God in   Him and  until He glorified God  as ruler of all  mankind ....

     :banana: :banana: You said it Rose!! :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Even without dealing with the translation issues UR needs to be "read OUT" of the scriptures. I saw it clearly. It was that led me into translation issues, to resolve the dilemas certain verses presented and get to the bottom of the seeming contradiction.  Thank God! There is only one gospel, and all my dilemas are resolved  :banana:

[guest5685]

Well I see the fellowship of the saints is doing a great job of "CHURCH" today on-line. I slipped in a little late just in case your were taking up the tithes! Just kidding a bit!

Some really beautiful posts on here today and prior to today! Don't you wish all the ET folks would come here and read them?

Love You All-Have A Blessed Day  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :dsunny: