God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions

[Caffus]

I think He was pleased becuase He knew thruogh Christs death all death and sin will be overcome. It doesn't mean the process doesn't hurt His heart as well.

[CHB]

I have wondered about this for quite some time now.

It says that because of the wickedness of man that it REPENTED the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it GREAVED him at his heart. 

God knew how man would be before he made him and it is God who controls all things. Why would it GREAVE God and cause him to be REPENTANT. Isn't this the way it was planned by God in the first place? I am pretty sure it was. Did we turn out different than God had planned? Or was God suprised and did he make a mistake by creating man? I don't think so. I wondered if the Hebrew words on this had a different meaning? Anyone got any ideas?

CHB

[sheila]

I believe He grieve's the 'marred' image.  not man in His image...the whole creation groans..for the glorious freedom of the sons of God.

.....the suffering so intense..that men pray for death[He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked corrupt image.[eat from the

  tokogae and ye shall die in the day ye eat of it]

   I await our brother's for any insight they may have through the Hebrew language.

[Aerex]

I have wondered about this for quite some time now.

It says that because of the wickedness of man that it REPENTED the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it GREAVED him at his heart. 

God knew how man would be before he made him and it is God who controls all things. Why would it GREAVE God and cause him to be REPENTANT. Isn't this the way it was planned by God in the first place? I am pretty sure it was. Did we turn out different than God had planned? Or was God suprised and did he make a mistake by creating man? I don't think so. I wondered if the Hebrew words on this had a different meaning? Anyone got any ideas?

CHB

I have a feeling this is just a way that God relates to us I guess. Weren't there many times that God asked questions that He should know the answer to. Its not like He didn't know as some people might think.

[Dandelion]

Personally, though I believe God wants us to always choose His will above our own, and calls us all to this, I don't think He is sad when we don't, in the sense that He knows the end of the story, and He knows that love wins, and the ending is a happy one. If anything, He sees us trip and fall and that we are then sad and confused. Just like when we watch a baby learning to walk, we know they are going to fall many times. Sometimes it is painful......the falls hurt sometimes, but we know the child will not walk if they do not go through that stage. And, so with our God, as He watches us.

As for Him being GRIEVED and REPENTANT because of us.....I would think that is because His only son had to suffer and die to save us. He knew in deliberately making Man, that would be the price of Man's salvation. He knew that giving us the ability to choose, we would often choose evil, but, without that choice, we could never eventually choose love. To give us that choice, meant we would break His Law and the price would be death......and His son, fully human and fully God, would be the only one who could rectify that dilemma. And, He knew that we would be forgiven, but would have to live with the consequences of our choices, until we were made whole in Christ. But, that leads us back to Him knowing the end of the story. 

Definitely a messy process, but a necessary one.

To God be the Glory!

     :HeartThrob:

[Caffus]

Yes, He knows the end is a wonderful one. I believe our God is a deeply feeling God. When His creation suffers He suffers with us....during the process even though He knows the end is good.

[CHB]

I have wondered about this for quite some time now.

It says that because of the wickedness of man that it REPENTED the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it GREAVED him at his heart. 

God knew how man would be before he made him and it is God who controls all things. Why would it GREAVE God and cause him to be REPENTANT. Isn't this the way it was planned by God in the first place? I am pretty sure it was. Did we turn out different than God had planned? Or was God suprised and did he make a mistake by creating man? I don't think so. I wondered if the Hebrew words on this had a different meaning? Anyone got any ideas?

CHB

I have a feeling this is just a way that God relates to us I guess. Weren't there many times that God asked questions that He should know the answer to. Its not like He didn't know as some people might think.

I agree. God does ask questions he knows the answers to. His ways are not our ways and our ways are not his way.

CHB

[Dandelion]

In my mind, He asks those questions to get us thinking.....He knows the answers.

D.

[EddieFlores]

If I had free will I could will myself to not sin.

[eaglesway]

Yet God, who commits no evil and tempts no man with evil, does not bind our wills to sin.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust and enticed.(James 1)

And now you know what controls, that he may be revealed in his time. 7The mystery of evil has even now begun to work within, only if that which now controls will be taken from the midst; 8And then that Evil One will be revealed, whom Our Lord Yeshua will consume with a breath of his mouth, and will destroy him by the revelation of his coming. 9For the coming of that one is in the activity of Satan in all power, signs and false wonders, 10And in all the error of evil which is in the perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth in which they would have Life. 11Because of this, God sent them the activity of delusion that they would believe lies. 12And all those who believed not the truth, but chose evil, will be judged.(2 Thess 2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English))

[sheila]

to me this hass all been said and done in the garden...when Eve was deceived of the serpent..and believed not the truth..and sin entered

all men..and all men bore the image of the corrupt one. The judgement was/is  ye shall die...sin condemned in the flesh...and all

men appointed to die once.

   surely the deceiver is 'the works of the devil' and his is the activity of delusion to the mind of man.


   death and life is in the power of the tongue.......Christ said 'I judge no man"   'Ye know not what spirit ye are of"

   'These words that I speak,shall judge you'   Do you believe He took away the sins of the whole world?

[micah7:9]

Yet God, who commits no evil and tempts no man with evil, does not bind our wills to sin.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust and enticed.(James 1)

And now you know what controls, that he may be revealed in his time. 7The mystery of evil has even now begun to work within, only if that which now controls will be taken from the midst; 8And then that Evil One will be revealed, whom Our Lord Yeshua will consume with a breath of his mouth, and will destroy him by the revelation of his coming. 9For the coming of that one is in the activity of Satan in all power, signs and false wonders, 10And in all the error of evil which is in the perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth in which they would have Life. 11Because of this, God sent them the activity of delusion that they would believe lies. 12And all those who believed not the truth, but chose evil, will be judged.(2 Thess 2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English))

"Yet God, who commits no evil.........."

What do I do with ......just wondering?  :HeartThrob: :Peace2:

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jer 4:6  Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
Jer 6:19  Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
Jer 11:11  Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
Jer 18:11  Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Eze 6:10  And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.
Eze 14:22  Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.
Mic 2:3  Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.

[Aerex]

Doesn't it say that God Himself does not tempt but doesn't he uses sicked creatures to do this?

[eaglesway]

The evil He brought upon them was the fruit of their own thoughts(Jer 6:19). In this context "evil" is judgment from the North- not wickedness, or anything to do with temptation. He is contrasting evil with peace- saying, "I can create peace for you if you yield to me, or I can bring chaos and destruction upon you- as the fruit of your own deeds and thoughts". But there is no place in the scriptures that even hints that God does, or tempts anyone with, wickedness- neither is He saying  that he creates wickedness, or tempts anyone with it..

We've had this discussion about Isaiah 45 and the others before, and as before, I dont really think you are looking at the verses within their specific context, but then, maybe James and John and Paul just misunderstood all those verses :dontknow:. As I see it the prophets are all speaking about God bringing judgment on Israel for their wickedness, not God Himself doing evil in any sense of wickedness.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

[Aerex]

The only problem I have with this that evil could not have been created from thin air. All things come from God whether it be good or evil to say otherwise would imply that evil is an accident which it isn't.

Did not God sent Jesus to the wilderness to be tempted by Satan? Wasn't it God who created the serpent who would tempt Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit of good and evil? Had it not been God who ordained his only begotten innocent son to be killed by wicked creatures as a means to save them?

I think this is the main contention that people have with God. People assume that because God is good then he can not do evil meaning that since there is evil in the world either God isn't real or God is not in control. In their opinion they think that a good God can not allow evil to exist.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

I think this is talking  about God's motivation or purpose for his actions which is good and pure. Scriptures states that it is designed to teach and reprimand; I think this goes the same for God. Where men use evil to destroy God uses it to teach and correct.

[micah7:9]

The only problem I have with this that evil could not have been created from thin air. All things come from God whether it be good or evil to say otherwise would imply that evil is an accident which it isn't.

Did not God sent Jesus to the wilderness to be tempted by Satan? Wasn't it God who created the serpent who would tempt Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit of good and evil? Had it not been God who ordained his only begotten innocent son to be killed by wicked creatures as a means to save them?

I think this is the main contention that people have with God. People assume that because God is good then he can not do evil meaning that since there is evil in the world either God isn't real or God is not in control. In their opinion they think that a good God can not allow evil to exist.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

I think this is talking  about God's motivation or purpose for his actions which is good and pure. Scriptures states that it is designed to teach and reprimand; I think this goes the same for God. Where men use evil to destroy God uses it to teach and correct.

:dsunny:Amen
Pro 4:7 The principal thing is wisdom; acquire wisdom, And with all your acquisition, acquire understanding;"  :HeartThrob:

[GodIsLove]

The only problem I have with this that evil could not have been created from thin air. All things come from God whether it be good or evil to say otherwise would imply that evil is an accident which it isn't.

Did not God sent Jesus to the wilderness to be tempted by Satan? Wasn't it God who created the serpent who would tempt Adam and Eve to eat from the fruit of good and evil? Had it not been God who ordained his only begotten innocent son to be killed by wicked creatures as a means to save them?

I think this is the main contention that people have with God. People assume that because God is good then he can not do evil meaning that since there is evil in the world either God isn't real or God is not in control. In their opinion they think that a good God can not allow evil to exist.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

I think this is talking  about God's motivation or purpose for his actions which is good and pure. Scriptures states that it is designed to teach and reprimand; I think this goes the same for God. Where men use evil to destroy God uses it to teach and correct.

Good points, Aerex, especially the last paragraph :)

[gregoryfl]

In Semitic thought-form, all רשע is רע, but not all רע is רשע. The Creator of all does both טוב and רע, but never רשע. When a father does רע to his son by America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although רע, is not רשע. In fact, it is טוב.

רע commonly called evil.
רשע commonly called wicked.
טוב commonly called good.

Ronen

[Dandelion]

James 1:13-15 ESV / 19 helpful votes   

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

Matthew 5:47 - 48

...47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 John 1: 5 -6

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;...

I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God, so therefore, anything not perfect as God, has the potential for evil. God wanted perfection for us, but, because we are His children and not His slaves, we have choices we can make. Adam and Eve made choices, which made this a fallen world. If we do not do everything, according to His will, that is the beginning of evil. Only God is good and anything even slightly out of sync with God, cannot be all good.

:2c:

D.

[micah7:9]

In Semitic thought-form, all רשע is רע, but not all רע is רשע. The Creator of all does both טוב and רע, but never רשע. When a father does רע to his son by America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although רע, is not רשע. In fact, it is טוב.

רע commonly called evil.
רשע commonly called wicked.
טוב commonly called good.

Ronen

How about unfolding all that, please I  missed something. Thanks :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

James 1:13-15 ESV / 19 helpful votes   

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

Matthew 5:47 - 48

...47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 John 1: 5 -6

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;...

I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God, so therefore, anything not perfect as God, has the potential for evil. God wanted perfection for us, but, because we are His children and not His slaves, we have choices we can make. Adam and Eve made choices, which made this a fallen world. If we do not do everything, according to His will, that is the beginning of evil. Only God is good and anything even slightly out of sync with God, cannot be all good.

:2c:

D.

"I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God..."

Evil did not "evolve" evil was created by the Lord, for His purpose and plan. If we cannot accept that truth man will continue to make excuses and take responsibility from the Creator.
Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

There was "knowledge" in that tree, knowledge of "good" and "evil"
Luk 18:19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
so we know that God is good, but should the Lord God not have created/made
"evil" how were we to get knowledge of either? The Creator, Father, the Lord planted that tree of "good and evil" and He Is good and He created/made evil for His and our benefit.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny: oops  :2c:

[rosered]

James 1:13-15 ESV / 19 helpful votes   

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

Matthew 5:47 - 48

...47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 John 1: 5 -6

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;...

I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God, so therefore, anything not perfect as God, has the potential for evil. God wanted perfection for us, but, because we are His children and not His slaves, we have choices we can make. Adam and Eve made choices, which made this a fallen world. If we do not do everything, according to His will, that is the beginning of evil. Only God is good and anything even slightly out of sync with God, cannot be all good.

:2c:

D.

"I am thinking evil evolved because we all are not perfect as is God..."

Evil did not "evolve" evil was created by the Lord, for His purpose and plan. If we cannot accept that truth man will continue to make excuses and take responsibility from the Creator.
Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

There was "knowledge" in that tree, knowledge of "good" and "evil"
Luk 18:19  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
so we know that God is good, but should the Lord God not have created/made
"evil" how were we to get knowledge of either? The Creator, Father, the Lord planted that tree of "good and evil" and He Is good and He created/made evil for His and our benefit.  :HeartThrob: :dsunny: oops  :2c:

  :thumbsup:   :dsunny:

  Remember they hated Jesus without a cause ....

   They thought their  knowledge   was their   power ..

   Jesus come to prove that LOVE IS the only power   that changes things    and makes  the   good , perfect  in GOD ...

[Dandelion]

Something just hit me as I was reading EWs post.  When God stated, lets make man in our image, most people believe...poof man was in the image of God.  But, what if the making of man like God is a process, and that process involves what we are talking about here...the education of the spirit through the threshing process of the flesh?  And that education is through mans limited will within Gods sovereignty?

That might already be obvious to some but that is a new thought for me.

Each of us needs to be transformed, in other words......going back to Nicodemus' discussion with Jesus. We must be born again. That is a very interesting interpretation of that quote. I am still not sure if that was what was meant here, but I definitely think that it is true. It is a process to make man into God's image.

Great thoughts, Shawn. Thank you for sharing that!

D. 

[gregoryfl]

In Semitic thought-form, all רשע is רע, but not all רע is רשע. The Creator of all does both טוב and רע, but never רשע. When a father does רע to his son by America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although רע, is not רשע. In fact, it is טוב.

רע commonly called evil.
רשע commonly called wicked.
טוב commonly called good.

Ronen

How about unfolding all that, please I  missed something. Thanks :HeartThrob:

Sorry if it was confusing. Translated English words, as well as any translated word, tends to come prepackaged with an idea that may or may not be contained in the original word. Evil is definitely one of those words, which is why so many cannot accept a God who does evil.

In Semitic thought-form, all wickedness is evil, but not all evil is wickedness. The Creator of all does both good and evil, but never wickedness. When a father does evil to his son in America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although evil, is not wickedness. In fact, it is good.

You see, the problem is this, in America no one would ever consider the grounding of a child as an evil act. Yet in ancient Israel, it would definitely be considered רע. A dentist who performs a root canal likewise would never be considered as doing an evil act, and yet in ancient Israel, it would definitely be considered רע. This is because the English word 'evil' is laced with ideas that have nothing to do with what the original word רע meant.

Ronen

[micah7:9]

In Semitic thought-form, all רשע is רע, but not all רע is רשע. The Creator of all does both טוב and רע, but never רשע. When a father does רע to his son by America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although רע, is not רשע. In fact, it is טוב.

רע commonly called evil.
רשע commonly called wicked.
טוב commonly called good.

Ronen

How about unfolding all that, please I  missed something. Thanks :HeartThrob:

Sorry if it was confusing. Translated English words, as well as any translated word, tends to come prepackaged with an idea that may or may not be contained in the original word. Evil is definitely one of those words, which is why so many cannot accept a God who does evil.

In Semitic thought-form, all wickedness is evil, but not all evil is wickedness. The Creator of all does both good and evil, but never wickedness. When a father does evil to his son in America by grounding him for doing wrong, the fathers' discipline, although evil, is not wickedness. In fact, it is good.

You see, the problem is this, in America no one would ever consider the grounding of a child as an evil act. Yet in ancient Israel, it would definitely be considered רע. A dentist who performs a root canal likewise would never be considered as doing an evil act, and yet in ancient Israel, it would definitely be considered רע. This is because the English word 'evil' is laced with ideas that have nothing to do with what the original word רע meant.

Ronen

Thanks and that is my understanding.  :dsunny: