Paradox

[marie glen]

When we read the letter to the Ephesians we see it's an awesome letter!

Yet by time the Revelation letter was dictated by Jesus, Ephesus had "lost its first love".. Last week I heard (on Tentmaker youtube I think) that Ephesus was the first city to speak of a 'hell'. They lost the 'magical' blush of their first love for the Lord.. and ended up embracing the (sorry and ridiculous) theory of 'hell'/eternal torture.

This idea, and now doctrine, of course messes with the gospel. Waters it down. Robs it of its power. Because it's hard for someone looking for God and, or looking for truth to be able to swallow this idea of God all knowing and wise who has this 'hell' on the side.

It makes the gospel message unbelievable. It becomes a clanging bell and it's a true and fantastic miracle that anyone comes to the Lord and the truth at all!!

The paradox, however, is that even though the dice was cast and the elect are the elect and the non elect are not yet elect (in this life) there is still within the believer and within the truth, the 'urgency' to get the message out. To speak in a clear tongue so a listener can hear the good news - the awesome news - which has all the answers to life..

Busting the hell myth is an important work! :Peace2:

[anti_nietzsche]

I think in order to really bust the hell myth we need to embrace a more pacifistic idea of God for whom violence is only a last resort corresponding with people's evil. IE, when God creates a just war he isn't going to fight over issues of fornication of having cheated your mother for a candy bar. When Israel was punished with a war it was a serious issue - like a religion that sacrifices children. India for example is full of idolatry, yet we do not know of a single war they were punished with by Ha Schem for this. There is peaceful and non-harmful idolatry - ie many hindus have been idolaters yet they did not sacrifice children or in another way oppress their neighbor. God is seeing this and judges the nations accordingly. The hell myth probably is ancient jewish hyperbole by which in fact they thought of hellish life situations, which is signified by calling hell gehenna, after the real life valley of Gen Hinnom. IE when Yahweh judged Israel to get conquered by foreign nations there was already hell there that was simply tidied up. Jesus was also in a way like Jeremia and Isaiah when he prophesied that Yahweh would strike Israel if they'd rebel against Rome. The Sermon of the Mount was at least partly a guide on how to deal with conquerors that had to be accepted by circumstance, necessity and maybe even by divine decree.

[sheila]

seven pairs of clean animals....approved for eating...were taken in the ark. the angel and the church are considered as pairs..

   spirit and truth.    Paul did not literally fight with wild beasts at Ephesus..but with the carnal wildvine mindset of" let us eat and drink for

tomorrow we die"  first love of truth and spirit of God.   two wittnesses overcome by beast and lay as dead in the streets....for 3 days.

    He who has declared the gates of hell shall not prevail..causes the two wittnesses to get on their feet...and come up here!

  being His thoughts higher then the carnal mindset of men.

[sheila]

 Jesus as the greater Noah.... Noah's name meanings..grace comfort regret[repentance] and rest.  the true ARK is the body of Christ.

...seven spirits +Jesus/resurrection=8 souls preserved. for the preservation of the life of the creation...to lift it up above the floods of

destruction and death.the voice above many waters..that walks the waters.[spirit move to and fro]

[sheila]

Isaih 11;15  God waves his hand over the Euphrates river[which proceeds out of Eden/paradise] and dries it up into seven streams.

  so that it may be crossed over in sandals[how beautiful the feet that brings goodnews/not worthy to unlace one of your sandals]

....Rev 3;7 to him that overcometh  will I give to eat of the tree of life,which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[sheila]

with the drying up of the Euphrates God's people"s release from captivity in Babylon is facilitated by the greater CYRUS[Jesus Christ]

[rosered]

This idea, and now doctrine, of course messes with the gospel. Waters it down. Robs it of its power. Because it's hard for someone looking for God and, or looking for truth to be able to swallow this idea of God all knowing and wise who has this 'hell' on the side.

It makes the gospel message unbelievable. It becomes a clanging bell and it's a true and fantastic miracle that anyone comes to the Lord and the truth at all!!

I love  what you said  Marie
  In order    to simplify and keep this short     ,   to me there are  3  types  or stages  of mankind to progress  or keep  walking in the Spirit  of Life

  the first stage is  complete darkness  , no law  / basically lawless  and no God before you , you are a god in our own little world  and your spin is what goes
  when joining with other little gods   , you form   some type of Babylon  /confusion

   When the law of Moses come it was the light in a dark place  , that moon/fiery law  and stars/angels /messengers   [   the law and prophets ]   with some light  but the looking though the glass darkly   , they only had a Word , not the  fullness     of Christ had not come  , Till the fulness of Time when God sent the Light of the Son / Sun with Holy Spirit and fire     to destroy the  darkness and  cover with LIGHT / knowledge of God  , the True and living GOD    ,

  All evil is  done in the darkness of men's hearts  born in sin /error /missing the mark    to me is how we should  WAIT ON THE LORD   , until the Light comes  and the increase of God is given though Jesus Christ     now the dark glass as Paul was speaking was fulfilling the law and prophets as a servant   , till  the Son rises up in our hearts     seven times brighter than the Sun ,,,,  Jesus is the way truth and life and our PRIME example of how   this is done in us   to me ..

I agree with you that the  watering down   with the flood of lies is what Quenches the SPIRIT   , we are so warned not to do       the Holy Spirit of God is a consuming fire    Luke 12 .. 49   I have come to set fire on the earth  , is this not the Sun /Son ?   
And of the angels/stars  he says , Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire..



  Isaiah  30   ...25On every lofty mountain and on every high hill there will be streams running with water on the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall. 26The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day the LORD binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted. 27Behold, the name of the LORD comes from a remote place; Burning is His anger and dense is His smoke; His lips are filled with indignation And His tongue is like a consuming fire;...


I   thought for many years God was angry   against  mankind and we were in the   world of hurt  , but it is the evil spirits hidden in men's hearts that  is being lawless and exposed     by His light   

  Paul said with out the law of Moses   he was alive in the world , but when the law come it put him to death /exposing the sin in him    , but in Romans 8   He asked who will deliver me  from this body of death , under the Law of moses was satan still accusing    , those under the   ministration of death  , Jesus come to save  / free the world  and bring the ministration of new Life back from the dead .by Gods grace    in Living  though Him  the Spirit & truth ..

   That is all ..    but here are  some  , many scriptures on the Grace coming to mankind from the old foretelling     to the new proclaiming    JESUS CHRIST ..
Revelation 21:23
The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

Revelation 22:5
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Job 5:18
For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures, but his hands also heal.

Isaiah 1:6
From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness-- only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with olive oil.

Isaiah 19:22
The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

Isaiah 24:23
The moon will be dismayed, the sun ashamed; for the LORD Almighty will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before its elders--with great glory.

Isaiah 30:13
this sin will become for you like a high wall, cracked and bulging, that collapses suddenly, in an instant.

Isaiah 30:14
It will break in pieces like pottery, shattered so mercilessly that among its pieces not a fragment will be found for taking coals from a hearth or scooping water out of a cistern."

Isaiah 33:24
No one living in Zion will say, "I am ill"; and the sins of those who dwell there will be forgiven.

Isaiah 57:18
I have seen their ways, but I will heal them; I will guide them and restore comfort to Israel's mourners,

Isaiah 58:8
Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

Isaiah 60:19
The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.

Isaiah 60:20
Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good posts. For the Ephesians, no doubt leaving their first love, FELT like hell.  :laughing7:

[rosered]

 
  I believe the Ephesus    church   was still   very carnal  and suspicious ....    seeing evil in every man [beastly] 
  PAUL  wrangled with the  beastly natures of carnal men ..
Like   the blind still trying to lead the blind still types , with carnal reasoning and new born  babe tendencies ,    lovers of milk and poopers , those  quick to have a  fit if they are not getting their way .

For me they are still under the law and ministration of death    , because the CHRIST   has not been formed in the  yet
  Ephesus mean "permitted "      God permits   them to   put everyone to the test  , exercising faith in God     
Leaving their first Love is Loving God first ,,    to me , and  if you trust in God , you will  pray for them instead of being disobedient  and start accusing   your brothers ,  family  of God  in Christ   as  false      bringing judgment   on  yourself ..  this gehenna fire      to burn out   that judging and accusing spirit  by fiey laws of the  Spirit  trials ..
  trials take us to court ,  under the law of moses  our judges    it says the  first   deputies where the holy ones  /angels  messengers       40 hagos  awful/ feared  , from hagios  and be found in prison    ,  that bound ,   seeing Peter was freed  from a  prison from a jailer whom he  witnessed to and      God set him free after that ...
These are spiritual examples to me for learning  how to be righteous   in and though Jesus Christ      , the true Word judges us all in the end   of what we are given   and how we handle it , as you judge  so shall you be judged    , you are judging yourself when you judge others   , when you love those  as yourself  you are judging rightly   .   evenyone is free in Christ in whom there is  no condemnation / judgement .


God knows I have been there and done that  every thing :sigh:

[eaglesway]

A study of the Epphesians church, both in the scriptures and in history, reveals a very interesting story.

Paul raised up a church there, and appointed elders. he left, but it appears he came backat least once and kept up with them through letters and sending and receiving messengers.

before paul goes on his last journey, to rome, he gathers the elders from Ephesus to himself at the port of Miletus, to say goodby to his dear friends and children in the faith. his words were compelling, and connect up well with the word in Revelations.

From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church. 18 When they arrived, he said to them: "You know how I lived the whole time I was with you, from the first day I came into the province of Asia. 19 I served the Lord with great humility and with tears and in the midst of severe testing by the plots of my Jewish opponents. 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

22 "And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. 23 I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God's grace.

25 "Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

32 "Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I have not coveted anyone's silver or gold or clothing. 34 You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35 In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "

36 When Paul had finished speaking, he knelt down with all of them and prayed. 37 They all wept as they embraced him and kissed him. 38 What grieved them most was his statement that they would never see his face again. Then they accompanied him to the ship.

They took his words to heart and the Ephesian church became one of the greatest assemblies in the mid-east.

Altho by the time John prophesies to them they hav lost their first love, and are urged to repent- they had succeeded in an area where Corinth, for example, had failed....

"I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary."

I think very few churches ever achieved the plateau from which they fell, and that today the churches abound with wolves and false prophets and profiteers.

Part of the reason for this is that they hoonored the idea that it is the "flock of God's possession, purchased by His blood", and was nevr meant to become the petty dictatorships of men that we see so much of.

[Dandelion]

"flock of God's possession, purchased by His blood"

Beautiful!

:cloud9:

D.