You mean God has a plan?

[Shev]

I have often thought that an under-emphasized point in favor of UR is that we see a true, wise, meticulously unfolding plan of God, which is to sum up all things into Christ, until all is subject to Him, and Christ subjected to the Father, as 1 Corinthians 15 details.

On the flip side, there is an irony to ET, in that proponents will tell you that 'God has a plan', whether for your life, or in general, and yet everything about that belief goes against any semblance of a plan. For if one believes Calvinism, God must have planned to create mankind for the purpose of falling into sin and misery, that He might sovereignly choose most of them to remain in even worse misery for all eternity, while choosing a small flock to be eternally blessed. This is a horrible plan! Calvinism acknowledges the power of God, but claims Him to be an unwise planner, creating untold billions for no purpose other than misery!

If one believes Arminianism, God created mankind to have a completely "free will", but with a fatal flaw that would see most of them incapable of "choosing Christ", again leading to untold billions being mercilessly burned for all eternity, as that same small blessed flock look on joyfully, like a heavenly island in a pool of terrible lava. Again - terrible plan! Why create mankind at all, if they are to be created with a fatal flaw that leads to their endless misery? How can anyone look upon such as a wonderful plan, unless it is an in individual, selflish sense?

And here it gets worse - those of us "lucky ones", are somehow supposed to rejoice that the multitudes burn in hell! Yes, on earth we were commanded to love our enemies, but now we can finally delight in their ceaseless torment! There is something so wrong with this picture. If the little chosen flock were now in the image of Christ, we would spend eternity begging our Father to let us take the place of those in hellfire, so then all creation would be screams of anguish, whether of torment or of petition. Unless of course, God brainwashed the little flock to have no knowledge of the hell situation - and of course, there is something wrong with that picture too!

Ultimately, when confronted with ET in any of it's forms, one of the most pertinent responses is simply "...and you believe God planned that from before the foundation of the world?"

[GodIsLove]

Yes!! Great points. These are some reasons people leave Christianity all together. It doesn't make a bit of sense until you understand UR!

[Dandelion]

As Hitler said, if you tell a lie often enough, people will believe it.

I can't think of a better example than this one.

Thanks.

:2c:

[eaglesway]

Totally salient analysis.

[Ross]

If man's plan were as dodgy as all these plans that man thinks God works by, then we would be writing man off as a complete failure.
So effectively all these religious variations actually define God as useless; just hoping He got things right.

The best example for me of His love is the comparison given about our dads.
Christ says, would your dad give you a rock instead of bread, or a snake instead of fish. If you then ,who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN GIVE WHAT IS GOOD TO THOSE WHO ASK HIM."
Matt 7;9-11

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I loved the last line Shev....makes so much sense. Blessings....

[Patinak]

If man's plan were as dodgy as all these plans that man thinks God works by, then we would be writing man off as a complete failure.
So effectively all these religious variations actually define God as useless; just hoping He got things right.

The best example for me of His love is the comparison given about our dads.
Christ says, would your dad give you a rock instead of bread, or a snake instead of fish. If you then ,who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN GIVE WHAT IS GOOD TO THOSE WHO ASK HIM."
Matt 7;9-11


:banana: :banana: :banana:

Ross,
I also use these verses frequently among my friends with kids in defending U.R..  Any father who loves his children has to relate to this, and as Jesus said, it is "OUR FATHER, who art in heaven..."

[marie glen]

 :cloud9: :HeartThrob: ..a beautiful thought to start the day on..! :cloud9:

[micah7:9]

Other than the Lord God....just whose plan could it be?

[Shev]

ET presents many areas where the believer has to rationalize on God's behalf, or self-brainwash on their own behalf. There are so many profound problems with hellfire, but for many of the difficult questions, the answer ends up being "it is not for us to know, we just have to believe it". This is a complete cop-out, especially when it comes to the character of God, which has been fully revealed by Jesus Christ, and yet is assaulted by this false doctrine. Similarly, God's ability to plan perfectly displays His love, wisdom and foresight working in harmony, and these are bought into disrepute by the idea that He wanted to do such and such, but cannot, or alternatively that He carefully planned to do something unloving on an unthinkable scale.

[micah7:9]

ET presents many areas where the believer has to rationalize on God's behalf, or self-brainwash on their own behalf. There are so many profound problems with hellfire, but for many of the difficult questions, the answer ends up being "it is not for us to know, we just have to believe it". This is a complete cop-out, especially when it comes to the character of God, which has been fully revealed by Jesus Christ, and yet is assaulted by this false doctrine. Similarly, God's ability to plan perfectly displays His love, wisdom and foresight working in harmony, and these are bought into disrepute by the idea that He wanted to do such and such, but cannot, or alternatively that He carefully planned to do something unloving on an unthinkable scale.

Beautiful :dsunny:

[rosered]

  I just believe that the common fellow   does not have a clue what Hell means   from Gods perspective     ,   nor  what devils are or heaven is  or   what Love really is from God 

  Those things  can never be known from mere carnal reasoning   , the Change comes  from Him giving   eyes to see ears to hear and a heart to understand God at all

  It is sad that so many  are NOT  told the truth   about those things in religious circles .   But ,

  Invoking fear and dread to the carnally  minded  is   maybe what makes them sin conscience    and that is the beginning of wisdom , knowing their lack ?

And needing  to Know the truth /  Word of God  by the Spirit of God   ..

   We are reminded to remember  what we  once  were    and come from     as to not get to ''puffy    with the knowledge  part '' and    remain  gentle  , loving and kind to all   especially if they are asking of you    why you believe the way you do .

  Good examples  are those whom are   loving patient   and kind and not miserable  , angry and  rude  short fused ..

   As Jesus said , Know what spirit you are of ...     

[guest5685]

 :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :iagree: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: Well said Rose!

[marie glen]

I have often thought that an under-emphasized point in favor of UR is that we see a true, wise, meticulously unfolding plan of God, which is to sum up all things into Christ, until all is subject to Him, and Christ subjected to the Father, as 1 Corinthians 15 details.

On the flip side, there is an irony to ET, in that proponents will tell you that 'God has a plan', whether for your life, or in general, and yet everything about that belief goes against any semblance of a plan. For if one believes Calvinism, God must have planned to create mankind for the purpose of falling into sin and misery, that He might sovereignly choose most of them to remain in even worse misery for all eternity, while choosing a small flock to be eternally blessed. This is a horrible plan! Calvinism acknowledges the power of God, but claims Him to be an unwise planner, creating untold billions for no purpose other than misery!

If one believes Arminianism, God created mankind to have a completely "free will", but with a fatal flaw that would see most of them incapable of "choosing Christ", again leading to untold billions being mercilessly burned for all eternity, as that same small blessed flock look on joyfully, like a heavenly island in a pool of terrible lava. Again - terrible plan! Why create mankind at all, if they are to be created with a fatal flaw that leads to their endless misery? How can anyone look upon such as a wonderful plan, unless it is an in individual, selflish sense?

And here it gets worse - those of us "lucky ones", are somehow supposed to rejoice that the multitudes burn in hell! Yes, on earth we were commanded to love our enemies, but now we can finally delight in their ceaseless torment! There is something so wrong with this picture. If the little chosen flock were now in the image of Christ, we would spend eternity begging our Father to let us take the place of those in hellfire, so then all creation would be screams of anguish, whether of torment or of petition. Unless of course, God brainwashed the little flock to have no knowledge of the hell situation - and of course, there is something wrong with that picture too!

Ultimately, when confronted with ET in any of it's forms, one of the most pertinent responses is simply "...and you believe God planned that from before the foundation of the world?"

Oh goodness Shev.. that is SO right on!!! 

I have often thought that an under-emphasized point in favor of UR is that we see a true, wise, meticulously unfolding plan of God, which is to sum up all things into Christ, until all is subject to Him, and Christ subjected to the Father, as 1 Corinthians 15 details.

from 1 Corinthians 15:22-27
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.... ..27 For "He has put all things under His feet."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:22-27&version=NIV;NKJV;KJV;AMP;YLT