Summary of a debate I had today

[Eduard]

The partner or opponent if you will, an Orthodox Christian, who claimed she studied her Church's teology.

First, I made it clear where I stand and that I refuse extrabiblical authority.

She accused me of following the epistles blindly, and then said that to her there is no such thing as Biblical or extra-Biblical, but that her church holds all the answers since it was established.

Then, I assumed that there's no way this can go any further, but I continued by using a trick, I am afraid: I asked if she never put herself in another person's shoes. A person who many never be contacted by the orthodox Church. So what then?

She answered that everyone believes in God in some form, and that they can also come to the complete form, in her vision the Trinity plus Orthodox doctrine.

I replied that she was the first to tell me that, and that is true. All of the other Orthodox said that it's their way or the highway, and chastised me for thinking differently. Sounded like brainwashing to me...

Now, the sad part. She think any non-Orthodox is lost and that she shouldn't hear them or even read a translation unauthorised by the Church. Meaning no salvation outside one Church, which to her is the one true Church. No salvation after death for anyone.

While she couldn't be moved, I explained that fear drove me away from her Church and into another fellowship, one that does not use fear. Referring indirectly to the Tentmaker community and other fellow believers in the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.

She replied that maybe those people I talked too didn't know me well enough, and that she wishes me to come back to the "true faith", and that only priests can help us gain forgiveness.

I didn't decline, but I preferred not to argue further about priesthood. She refused to trust me that the New Testament as well as the Old forbids praying TO the dead and bowing down before any sort of icon or statue.

All in all, I don't think I've accomplished anything. Maybe just that I gained experience.    :dontknow:


What would you say ?  :Pray: :girlheart:

[sheila]

..well,Edward...she sounds totally satisfied where she is... :Chinscratch:  it all depends on God who makes it grow...God who

  opens the eyes/heart of spiritual blindness.Isn't it 'odd' that those who bow down to what they 'see' are so blind to the invisible God?

God will deliver her in His timing and in her order......continue in loving kindness to her. :friendstu:

[Eduard]

I hope her eyes will be opened and she will be changed.  Only God can do that. Like I was changed and I walked further on the path with Christ's light. And many of us, probably were once more like her. :thumbsup:  :HeartThrob:

[Ross]

Eduard;
" Maybe just that I gained experience. "

For me, this sort of conversation helps clarify the truth. The person spoken to is not always aware of what is said; primarily, I.M.O because they are still asleep and have not yet been trained personally by God; not yet their time to know.

However, as I said, helps us to grow, and points things out which solidify our position in Christ.

[Patinak]

"If we'd been born where they were born and taught what they were taught, we would believe what they believe."-- A sign inside a church in Northern Ireland, explaining the origin of intolerance and hate. (Tentmaker - Quotes on Religion)

[Eduard]

Thank you Ross.

And I agree Patinak. Some people think only they were born in the "right place" and were taught all the "right" things.

[rosered]

Hi Eduard
     Always great to hear from you    :thumbsup:

  Good answers from the  forum .

   I I think it is important to ''think differently '' than the norm      ...
  It is all in how we think ...   above or  below    , many scriptures  to support that   truth ..
  But my main point is our faith is unto God   and it is God whom gives each one a measure of faith and only God can give the increase , as Sheila  brought out .

   Folks whom  think     in that ''mindset ''   in my opinion are  only speaking ''lip service ''     it seems  that her heart is far away from the TRUTH    ..
  I always  consider what Jesus said , when faced with the types and  shadows    , Do as they say don't do as the do when it comes to the Laws 
    for me there are two Laws  in effect   , Love God and love one another as yourself    ...

  Any time you do not consider   your brother   you fail that test  of the heart matter ..   the Lord said pray for your enemies  , many times it is at the  dinner table and your own family of God ... scary  truth     and  the meat of the matter is doing Gods will   that many are not even close to   consuming ..
Because to me    the Babylon   spirit is   the mixing of the above and below  ''thinking '' and its the trap  , of thinking more  of yourself and your own judgments than you ought ..

  All boasting  should be in the Lord only   as the scriptures   declare , when  we sit down to eat  , for me, the same as Spiritual food for the Spiritual man   we must always  learn to discern the Lords body  , this being all the members of His  own   called and chosen  and eat and drink  as to NOT bringing  judgment on  their own  , heads and bodies ..

Romans 11 ...8just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." 9And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. 10"LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."

Psalm 69:22
May the table set before them become a snare; may it become retribution and a trap.

Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.


Just some thoughts on them things   brother , always good to hear from you and out   declaring the Word of God to those that are ''poor in Spirit '''  our hope is they will see God   Matt 5   God blesses those who are poor[spiritually ] and realize their need for him, for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.

I  have been praying  for those as well as myself [  needing more of Him ]   a big ol dose of HOLY SPIRIT   ,,,    thinking [loving ] of them as mine own self  .

    There is none     by the Holy Spirit that call JESUS CHRIST ACCURSED [ including the Body /believers / bread of Life  ] broken    and being served  to fill  those hungering   bellies      that triumph will be mercy    over    judging   each other .      :HeartThrob:

[Eduard]

In my mind, she felt fear while I felt love, she did not wish to run away from the fear and to know a glimpse of perfect Love, as I did before.


I did what I could, but as you, Rosered say, there IS always room to grow and bear much fruit.

[rosered]

In my mind, she felt fear while I felt love, she did not wish to run away from the fear and to know a glimpse of perfect Love, as I did before.


I did what I could, but as you, Rosered say, there IS always room to grow and bear much fruit.

  :thumbsup:  Yes Eduard ,  It is God whom gives the increase   , His Word will not return void  :dsunny:

   

[marie glen]

Amen so true! There's other groups too who believe safety/salvation is only in their own group, and like Rose said, it's all part of the confusion spirit (I think of as mystery babble, all confusion and untruth).

I have some of the church you speak of in my roots, not because I ever went, but one of my grandmothers did and I remember some books from childhood. The art still appeals to me, some of it and there was always an emphasis on 'the holy family' so called, of Mary and Joseph and Jesus which still appeals to me. And the idea of monasticism too has always appealed to me to the point of considering myself to be somewhat monastic.. Tho married with a family, haha..

It's funny to me how all these systems have some truth and some error all weaved up together. And as others posted, in their time they will come out of all error. How happy we can all be to know that!

Funny too how folks whose group has made some big errors, yet they still think it is the one and only group..

[Lorenzo]

But the greatest source for UR is within the Greek Orthodox ancient tradition!

[Eduard]

Yes, but ET is deeply rooted in Orthodoxy today and it has been for a while, unfortunately. Today they are not specific about numbers, but anything else is considered heresy. :eek:

[Lazarus Short]

However, the true heretic will not stand up and admit it.  :footmouth:

[Eduard]

The Pharisees thought Jesus was the heretic too...  :dontknow:  :sigh:

[anti_nietzsche]

I'm normally sympathetic to the Orthodox churches because in my experience they always had more patience and usually also some inclination to believe in the UR things themselves. But that depends on whether they read the right Church Fathers. Jerome for example is brimming with universalistic leanings. Over a 100 mentions in his writings. Origen and Clement of Alexandria were similar. It's too bad we have lost most writings from the 1st century, of the endless debates might be over already.

I also think that a christian who wants to maintain a universalistic theology has to have solid arguments from reason and experience as well. One of the strongest incentives that kept me going at UR was the death of my atheistic father. I can't imagine to live with God in Heaven and call this the culmination of love and not have my dad by my side as well. I actually had a dream about this recently. I was in a street that was very beautiful, everything was autumny and yet warm and lightened. I met my father there and immediately went, Hooray, I see my dad again. My dad came and took me and sat down near a tree. It was falling over and I reached and held it by my hand and could put it back in its place. I think this dream was from God, about two worries, once my dad in heaven and what we would do in cases of accidents in Heaven like falling from a mountain or being struck down by, say, a load falling down from a crane. Looks like we will all rival superman in Heaven, it's really funny.

[eaglesway]

Daniel, excellent post and a beautiful dream. Perhaps the tree also symbolized your father, for we will be straightening up fallen trees as we reconcile men to Christ in ages to come.... not for the purpose of everyone getting saved(which sometimes is a rather religious objective) but for the purpose of everyone being in love, in fellowship, in wholeness and in the joy of communion.

[sheila]

I had a dream about my Mom[who had passed away]finding her dead,naked in a ditch. I quickly got her out of the ditch and up in a

wheelchair...and clothed.  The revelation of the salvation of all..was the alarm of finding her in such a state..and love manifesting to her

  in the truth of God's love and deliverance of all.  The babylon/religion was what put her in the ditch in the first place[blind leading the

blind]

[eaglesway]

Yes, in the ditch(under earth)....naked(no reconciliation), awaiting a deliver/reconciler to come and lift her, and cover her and carry her for awhile.

Beautiful.

[Eduard]

Great replies here!  :thumbsup:

Whenever I tried with Orthodox, they kept bringing up the idea that free will is bigger than Jesus and the Cross, even if some tried to put aside their church's doctrine, they would not put aside eternal torment. And there are many Christians here who replaced eternal torment with eternal death, and still won't be moved...

[Ross]

2 Thess 2;9-14 " The coming of the lawless one will be according to the activity of Satan, with all kids of false miracles, signs and wonders, and with every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.
For this reason God will send them an active delusion leading them to believe the lie, so that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

But we ought always to thank God for you brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you as first fruits for salvation by sanctification  of the Spirit and belief in the truth. And He called you to this salvation through our gospel, so that you might come to share the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I.M.O one of the overlooked concepts is the point of being first fruits.
In the O.T they were to give the first fruit to God, then keep the rest as the season went on. Then the rest of the harvest would happen.
Paul refers to the first fruits in 1 Cor 15.
Must be a key point for the concept to be expressed in this way.
Other religions think if you are not the first fruit then you will be burned. Not to many refer to the rest of the harvest coming in.
A point that comes to mind about the burning away scene is that the stuff burnt was all the chaff; not the seed.

[marie glen]

Amen! concerning the dreams posted..  :thumbsup: and ages to come.. :thumbsup:

And Firstfruits and harvest! :banana: :banana: which yes, is so very overlooked..

1 Cor 15 - "as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will live.. but in order.. (1_first Christ the firstfruit" ("Firstfruit" is the 3rd Spring Holy Day/Feast after Passover and Unleavened Bread) "..t(2)hen those that are His at His coming" (firstfruits harvest-the resurrection of all believers who have died and the gathering of those still alive to meet Him at His coming) "and then, (3)the end.. when Jesus gives the kingdom to the Father" who is then "all in all" and He will then "tabernacle with man" upon a made new earth in a made new universe..

parable, three (3) measures of meal..?

[rosered]

 
  I missed this  part about the dreams of Daniel and Shelia   about their loved ones ,  :HeartThrob:


I also  have to share this , trying to put into words ...a comforting dream  concerning my brother

   My brother Thomas  was 20 when he died in a terrible  drowning accident , the undertow got him in the ocean .

For many years I struggled with this   fear over him  dying
Weird things happened along the way  , at first   only   2 or 3 days  after his death  , I saw  a vapour, greyish streams of  smoke like  rising  in the living room  , they were thin and long and in a   long  swirl and   my mom saw it too , so it was no figment of my imagination ,
 
  This scared me  , I was fearful over things I never understood  my whole life    and at 23    that was  crazy to me
  I asked mom what was that ?  , She  said I don't know   Rose .

  I just  forgot about that
  But  the worry and stress over him   continued and could get no peace  ,  and took a rose from his   grave and kept it in my bible  ,  it dried and  pressed it in there   and kept it in my  headboard of the  bed ...


Sometimes when  ,  I prayed , begged God for help and answers  ,  It seemed like   SILENCE , deafening silence    from God  and  fear turned into mourning and  reasoning and  yes , even anger  , the  5  stages of grief , happened  in my thoughts  to God  for some kind of  answer , WHY GOD ? WHY , why him and not me , that kind of thinking etc ..

  One  night I opened the bible and  asked the Lord please just some kind of answer   PLEASE !   Death was always so final and  devastating  , especially when your young  and  tender and everything hurts  with so much more  intensity .

   The scripture and answer was soooooo  comforting  , a start in this process of understanding  from  Gods point of view   . 

   ECC 9  ;12   ...11I again saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift and the battle is not to the warriors, and neither is bread to the wise nor wealth to the discerning nor favor to men of ability; for time and chance overtake them all. 12Moreover, man does not know his time: like fish caught in a treacherous net and birds trapped in a snare, so the sons of men are ensnared at an evil time when it suddenly falls on them.

 
   That was Gods Word to me at that time to help ease the pain ,,,,    I kept that rose right there  and marked it and   there it stayed and read it and more  as the comfort come though them words  , some kind of peace and calm  ,  the trouble was lessened . 

  I woke up  one night  months later and    that bible was  laying open beside me !!! and those rose petals were surrounding    all around  me I FREAKED OUT , jumped out of bed   and fear gripped me   ,  What in the world is going on here !! 

We fear the very things we do not understand      and things that make no human sense whatsoever ! 
My carnal mind  could not  reason with this  spooky  stuff !
  God  knew  my fears    , but I had no clue      and asked Him to make these things stop I was terrified ...

  They did , I had no more  of that ... 

But years later  , God gave me a dream and  I talked with Tom we met in a  strange  place   , a  fun house with tunnels and   shoots   with laughing and  noise of people  in the background having  laughter and  excitement  , It was soooooo  real  , like it really happened , that was what the strange part , was     
  We talked and I asked him questions and he answered me  , and asked Him , ''why he did not come home and tell us he was ok ,  he said he was home and has a family and    things were great   and  just now could ..

I never ever worried about him again  , it was settled       , peace come   , God is so good    and thanked the Lord for that message and getting to see my brother Tom again ..

   Crazy at it sounds      , It is what it took for me to understand ...

  I know now something I believe with all my heart is a treasure , and no one can  take that from me   , God gave it though the Holy Spirit a  real answer    concerning    folks whom die  , young and early and unprepared  etc  , you could be  80   and that is  young in Gods sight , because   time is of no  thing  in Gods realm ...

  Jesus does not judge us  , Only the Word given to you   judges you ,when you meet Him ,    If the Word was very little , and scarce , Just Jesus  and God and a few   little things  , that is what you  have with you , in your heart   , some have no judgment at all     . none !
   Some have little and some more and some lots ,     it is how we are judged when we  See Jesus     , What he gave you that is what you are accoutable for   

  and how you handled it in this life ..   the gifts of Life  and death  , yes even  mortal death is a gift   for some , if you can believe it .
  I know it says death is the last enemy ,     but that kind of death is  meaning something entirely different.
It is when the carnal mind , blocks out the things the Spirit is  teaching us bringing  fearfulness and unbelieving and  shame  and anger  and  terror  etc  and faith is not  used  believing all things are possible with God   , doubting God and calling them things evil and  fake and of the devil ...  etc   

  Abrahams seed of faith  is tested and tried and true       , just as much as the Christ seed word of God is tested and tried and true in  many  given the opportunity to experience it   ,   those are things that  judgment  comes   from and in and     Life and love are the reward   for those faithfully tested , more of Him to the point that   you are LIVING  to GOD and precious in His sight , we are all very precious in His sight and    judgement is in the earth , just as it is in Heaven HIS WORD IS LIFE    ..     We have so much more to experience   and they are waiting for us  as we all learn His righteousness   in the earth as it is in heaven    .. :HeartThrob:
We will all see Him in the end    Just as He has been all along ... 

  Gods timing is everything ...  Perfect   in every way  that anyone could even begin to know about ..   

[rosered]

Amen! concerning the dreams posted..  :thumbsup: and ages to come.. :thumbsup:

And Firstfruits and harvest! :banana: :banana: which yes, is so very overlooked..

1 Cor 15 - "as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will live.. but in order.. (1_first Christ the firstfruit" ("Firstfruit" is the 3rd Spring Holy Day/Feast after Passover and Unleavened Bread) "..t(2)hen those that are His at His coming" (firstfruits harvest-the resurrection of all believers who have died and the gathering of those still alive to meet Him at His coming) "and then, (3)the end.. when Jesus gives the kingdom to the Father" who is then "all in all" and He will then "tabernacle with man" upon a made new earth in a made new universe..

parable, three (3) measures of meal..?

  I AGREE  SISTER MARIE !! :banana: :banana: :banana: :HeartThrob:
  SO excited  , can you tell ?? lol  :laughing7:

   THE HARVEST IS PLENTY !!!   and the  labourers are few  ,  Pray to the LORD OF HARVEST   for workers in the field ..world , dropping those seeds of faith in the hearts of mankind   so the Christ in you the hope of Glory  rises up in victory  over death  , not knowing God  , His LOVE  is more than we could ever dream possible !!     :HeartThrob:
I thank Him for the love manifested though Jesus Christ  dwelling with us ....    What an Awesome God we serve and are kin too !!! 

[Eduard]

 :thumbsup: :girlheart: :Peace2: