How Does UR Reconcile God's Love with God's Wrath?

[GodIsLove]

Eaglesway, good points...
Though I can't claim to know the mind of God, I like to understand the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc as God knowing that nothing else would get through to the people of that time, so he destroyed for a purpose. It could be my own bias, but even when I read in the bible of these more extreme examples of God's judgement, I don't see wrath in the human sense, I see a God who is shaping humanity through his plan, and sometimes that means destroying temporarily with the intent to restore later. Cain killed his own brother and his punishment was to be exiled but like you said, no one else was allowed to harm him. He wasn't tortured or even killed himself, which would have been "fair" in the eye for an eye law that was to come later.

I also want to express my appreciate for you and everyone else here on Tentmaker.  I love these discussions and I love gaining new perspectives from you all.

[eaglesway]

I see Sodom and Gomorrah like an infection that is so bad it threatens the whole body.

I also think we forget that life is a privilege given by thge Creator- not a right. God has a plan from the beginning, and I believe it involves our character as individuals and as a race. This is why I believe there is a measure of free will in the "works" and that there is interaction between God and man- what else could explain the horrific evil that happens in this world.

If God `has planned ands caused all the terrible injustice and suffering in this world, then I dont care if He eventually saves all. It would still be something monstrous in my mind.

So the "mystery of iniquity" is something deeper than we can see. At the time of the flood, the violence and depravity of mankind had reached a point to where his continued existence was an assault on future generations and an assault on God's own "desire" or "kind intention" to bring man into fellowship with Himself,

But all this is just my opinion and limited perspective on some very deep and sometimes troubling questions- to which I do not believe there is a simple answer  :2c:

[marie glen]

Eaglesway, good points...
Though I can't claim to know the mind of God, I like to understand the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc as God knowing that nothing else would get through to the people of that time, so he destroyed for a purpose. It could be my own bias, but even when I read in the bible of these more extreme examples of God's judgement, I don't see wrath in the human sense, I see a God who is shaping humanity through his plan, and sometimes that means destroying temporarily with the intent to restore later. Cain killed his own brother and his punishment was to be exiled but like you said, no one else was allowed to harm him. He wasn't tortured or even killed himself, which would have been "fair" in the eye for an eye law that was to come later.

I also want to express my appreciate for you and everyone else here on Tentmaker.  I love these discussions and I love gaining new perspectives from you all.

Amen..  :iagree: (with Eaglesway too.) Some infections if not dealt with will poison the whole body.. and with the flood, too, there was the issue of the nephilim, which perhaps we all would have been descended from. Except of course humanity may perhaps have perished long ago...

[GodIsLove]

Yes, I agree with the cancer analogy.

[Seth]

God is a parent, and most often behaves as you describe when His kids are petulant. But in my opinion, the gumball example, altho it can be widely applied, does not always apply.

For instance if my child wants a gumball, and I don't give it to him, so he goes and tries to take another child's gumball and the other child wont give it up, so he goes and gets a baseball bat and beats the child and takes his gumball, then wrath(orge- outbreak) can be an appropriate response. Wrath is anger manifest towards an egregious violator, a predator so to speak- Cain and Able fit my example perfectly.

But God reserves the right to wrath for Himself alone. He punishes Cain, but then says if anyone tries to avenge Able, God's wrath will manifest towards them as well. The flood of Noah was an example of wrath and any I dont think any rationale can take the wrath out of it.


The issue(imo) is not whether God's wrath somehow invalidates His mercy, but rather that His mercy is always greater than His wrath.

I don't like the word "wrath" per say, and I dont think it accurately describes this anger that will activate God to stop, sometimes emphaticly, the actions of eggregious violators of the law of love. "Wrath" almost sounds like pointless rage. But "orge" does carry a meaning of an outburst- God 'breaking through" in a case where the violator makes it necessary. Paul said, "Be angry and sin not, let not the sun go down on your wrath". Thats the King James English. I like the New International translation better

"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry"

God never sins out of His anger, and we can trust that if He is angry enough to take extreme action, it is well-deserved, and He will recover the judged through mercy when there rebellion is broken, or exhausted.

As I see it in both the OT and NT God does not manifest that anger until many appeals have gone unheeded, or someone needs to be protected from someone else.

But imo anger is a particular manifestation of the emotional character of God that I dont think we can, or should, devalue in a uni-lateral sense.

I do realize tho that people are sensitive to teachings about the Lord's anger because so many Christians have painted Him as almost always, and eternally- angry, and the evil one often masquerades as an angry God tormenting and punishing people for sins they need mercy and grace to overcome.

So it is a complicated issue, yes?

:iagree:  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

 :iagree: too.. For example what God of all Love worth his salt would not be angry at the mistreating, abuse and oppression of other of God's children.. saved or not yet saved.. As with Israel the (human) sacrificing of the innocent/children on the altar of pagan worship, I believe it is Psalm 106 (or 36?) which more or less says it was the last straw in Israel's rebellion.. Yet too the wrath/anger was the allowing of Israel's enemies to overcome and mistreat them.

And, of course, in balance, He is not the angry God just waiting to pounce which much preaching and e.t. makes him out to be (and increasingly, or sometimes, mimics?).

Righteous anger, yet infinite patience and mercy. And when it comes to the big picture, what we call "apocalypse"  I believe to (mostly) be the collapse of man's doings (man's world) - the collapse which "unveils" truth.. Build it, without God, and minus God, and they will not come (ultimately).. for it can only fall in a puff of self destructive smoke.. and dust.. Even if only eventually. The climax of the story (lesson).

Like the cup city babylon holds in her hand.. the side effects of her enchantments.. "having a golden cup in her hand full of her abominations and uncleanness".. "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" .."Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her (resulting?) plagues.".."in the cup that she did mingle, mingle to her double." She will drink (the results of) her own cup of abominations, come out of her, lest we drink her cup.. the side effects of her immoralities, the slow and torturous dissolution of family and society / civilization to the full.. Paradox usually is balance of two poles..

:2c: :smile:

[Dandelion]

"I agree with the author of this article on one point: we should not base universal salvation on the notion that God is beholden to our own notions of fairness etc, that God should do what WE would do in his position. Nobody is to be saved because they have a "right" to it, or deserve it."

Agreed.

That being said:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


1 Corinthians 13New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

And this quote:

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4: 7 - 8

Our God has many, many attributes, but, the most prominent, and the most overriding is Love. I believe that is the theme of our story of Salvation. Despite our unfaithfulness, despite our sins, despite the fact that we all deserve death........He loves us.

And God has pledged His unfailing love for us over and over again. Never more pronounced than when Jesus gave His life on the Cross, for our Salvation. And we are told that we can count on His love for us. 

And, yet still:

Romans 5:7 - 9

...7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him....

Yes, justice is a part of God, as well. Absolutely. However, I don't think we can equate such things as the time of Noah and the demise of the population, the same way we perceive eternal punishment. I think we need to look at the issue of death to this world from God's point of view. We all must die at some point. Death is just being born to a new life, in God's view, IMO. It is not the same at eternal punishment and the permanent state of being separated from God, with no hope of reconciliation.

If we use a parent model, a good parent will punish their child, at times, but ultimately wants the best for them and for them to be 'victorious' in their life. Punishment is a means to get the child to a state in which they can function and be on a good track, independent of the need for parental guidence continually.

Anyway, my  :2c:

D.

[rosered]

How Does UR Reconcile God's Love with God's Wrath?

By  sharing your faith in  God .....
  UR  knows   the beginning and END is Christ  , and placed all   in the power of GODS PLAN   as in effect ..
and the faith , hope and Love is in   the LORD JESUS CHRIST  , being the LORD of the dead and living  ...

  and this passage has always blessed  and gives a sure hope in    Jesus Christ  as the TRUTH
1 John   Love One Another
...13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.

14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.

He who does not love abides in death.

15  Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him....  ertrnal life is Christ in you the hope of glory  , to me it is that simple     

  the world and its  afflictions is a enemy against the SPIRIT OF LIFE    and it come down to  ''How we think  and process  and act on them ''

  We cannot have both ,  it is a  either , or    , and who does not battle with their own   flesh and blood   carnal ways  at times when you least expect it ?

  I believe we learn righteousness  of God in our earth , being , by having peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and desire this for everyone   born of woman  , in hope of being born again  in   the SPIRIT OF  TRUTH

JOHN 3 ...4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit....

  John 4 ...22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."...

   This   to me is how we are  made a new and be a part of the LORD JESUS CHRIST      , HIS NEW CREATION

You do not worship the Father   in any other way  , but by the purest form of HIS OWN SPIRIT and truth   within you  , the seed is  CHRIST , the WORD OF GOD made flesh ....  JESUS CHRIST   WAS AND IS THE  FIRST AND ONE OF A KIND   sent by the Father  into the world   , to make all things new  in and though Him  ,  the beginning     is and was and will be set  forever  and  the   ultimate END IS CHRIST ...

  The beginning/ALPHA  and end /OMEGA ,is Christ   before the world was .

  Revelation 1: 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Judgment is in the earth    2 Peter 3 Christ's Coming Judgment
...6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.


7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day....

    Romans 9 The Calling of the Gentiles  !!!


...28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."


29 And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,  the seed  word of Life , Jesus Christ


WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
being the fire of judgments in the earth   ..    WORD IS A FIRE
Jeremiah 23:29
"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

pos·ter·i·ty
[päˈsterədē]
NOUN
all future generations of people:
"the victims' names are recorded for posterity"
synonyms: future generations · the future
archaic
the descendants of a person:
"God offered Abraham a posterity like the stars of heaven"
synonyms: future generations · the future

Jer 20...8For each time I speak, I cry aloud; I proclaim violence and destruction,


Because for me the word of the LORD has resulted In reproach and derision all day long.

9But if I say, "I will not remember Him Or speak anymore in His name," Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; And I am weary of holding it in, And I cannot endure it.

10For I have heard the whispering of many, "Terror on every side! Denounce him; yes, let us denounce him!" All my trusted friends, Watching for my fall, say: "Perhaps he will be deceived, so that we may prevail against him And take our revenge on him."...

   The Word of God     is where we put our trust  , not in man  , not in ourselves   as anything , ALL GLORY IS GODS ,   UR understands  that rock solid  eternal  truth   and declares it ..

[sheila]

in Matthew 5;21-  we have counsel on anger/wrath etc....continue to be angry..despise etc.  we can have a righteous anger....in

response to a wicked act..but there is a real danger of sin[missing the mark] in taking this offense.

     a good study of Jesus counsel of dealing with anger...shows us the Father's heart/mind regarding wrath. How He thinks it should be

  appropriately dealt with...and gives insight to how Father deals with it.

   God's righteous anger against evil..does not cause Him to lose His temper and sin[miss the mark of love]. whether He deals with an

issue swiftly..or   exercizes long-patience waiting for repentance. HE DEALS WITH IT.



       [timely counsel for me..d/t my anger of Isis attacks]