the Jews had not known God right

[anti_nietzsche]

I think a core verse to keep in mind about jesusian scripture is his saying that the Jews had not seen God. This is really important because that means, even the law and the prophets had not been perfect. This is also how Jesus improved on the law by not washing his hands before eating, allowing his later followers to eat pork, not condemning the adulteress and bringing to light that God does not HAVE to punish someone and that we should have the same attitude, and hinging our own forgiveness to our forgiving our own debtors. There is even a parable that has Jesus praise a shrewd manager who downplayed his master's debtors' debt in order to live with them because he himself was flawed and sinful. This attitude was really foreign to the zealous Jews of Jesus' time. They thought that once you are found being a sinner, you must be punished. They also had beliefs like people's sicknesses and problems were a result of their sins and not a suffering they were mandated to alleviate by true neighborly love and mercy. Jesus connected the dots and brought to light an understanding of God as someone who wanted people to love and heal each other.

Because of this truth, I am often reluctant to embrace all of christianity because some people in our faith, just like the pharisees, go by hatred, indifference and a spirit of judgment rather than a spirit of love. Paul argues Christ's case that the main sum of instruction is love unfeigned. That is our DUTY, it is not optional and it is not to be neglected. If love should be our rule of life, then it is obvious that we serve a God of love who himself acts lovingly and mercifully, so distancing parts of humanity that do not suit us, from God, is in itself wrong and sinful. Instead those who embrace the virtue of love must carry also even those who do not believe in God. And in this Jesus' will of meekness and forgiveness is fulfilled.

[sheila]

   I really like what you shared here. God never condones evil/wickedness/wrong......no matter who does it/nor in what way.

   Instead...in His love....He has proposed to show us all a most wonderful way...and to forgive,heal and deliver us all from it.

     wickedness is a hurtful thing. it harms...even though we may be blind as to how it possibley could. Indeed,it may appear

  beneficial and even enlightening[wise] to us.

[Eduard]

it was their arrogance and their vanity that made them falter at times.

[sheila]

the creature was subjected to vanity..in the hope that the WHOLE creation may be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

   the kingdom of heaven is like...a woman took a measure of leavening and hid it in 3 measures of flour...until all was leavened.

      the leavening was Grace/mercy/deliverance.

      Israel's failure led to mercy being extended to the gentiles.  The gentiles churchs failings lead to all men being shown mercy.

.....the saints were overcome...that all sinners may come in..and be recievers of grace/mercy/free gift of eternal life.

     He let the church fail...that all those 'sinner' men they condemned to eternal torment recieve grace/free gift of eternal life.

       no flesh will boast

[eaglesway]

I think a core verse to keep in mind about jesusian scripture is his saying that the Jews had not seen God. This is really important because that means, even the law and the prophets had not been perfect. This is also how Jesus improved on the law by not washing his hands before eating, allowing his later followers to eat pork, not condemning the adulteress and bringing to light that God does not HAVE to punish someone and that we should have the same attitude, and hinging our own forgiveness to our forgiving our own debtors. There is even a parable that has Jesus praise a shrewd manager who downplayed his master's debtors' debt in order to live with them because he himself was flawed and sinful. This attitude was really foreign to the zealous Jews of Jesus' time. They thought that once you are found being a sinner, you must be punished. They also had beliefs like people's sicknesses and problems were a result of their sins and not a suffering they were mandated to alleviate by true neighborly love and mercy. Jesus connected the dots and brought to light an understanding of God as someone who wanted people to love and heal each other.

Because of this truth, I am often reluctant to embrace all of christianity because some people in our faith, just like the pharisees, go by hatred, indifference and a spirit of judgment rather than a spirit of love. Paul argues Christ's case that the main sum of instruction is love unfeigned. That is our DUTY, it is not optional and it is not to be neglected. If love should be our rule of life, then it is obvious that we serve a God of love who himself acts lovingly and mercifully, so distancing parts of humanity that do not suit us, from God, is in itself wrong and sinful. Instead those who embrace the virtue of love must carry also even those who do not believe in God. And in this Jesus' will of meekness and forgiveness is fulfilled.

Actually, I think you are misunderstanding Jesus to somme extent about that. Jesus conttinually quoted Moses and the prophets. He was telling the Jews, the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin(and speaking to the world through them), that they had missed the 'heart' of the law(God made the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath).
He likened them to Cain, and the image of Cain and Able is a world view- we are either in Cain or in Abel and that is what all of this is ultimately about- Jesus shows the way and makes the way for us to move from Cain(for you were once as they, hostile of mind, etc, etc) into Abel(the Lamb, No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends).

So imo He wasnt criticizing the Law or the prophets, but the way the Jews(those who were in Cain) had interpreted and applied the law, and the way they had killed the prophets and were going to kill him, because He was bringing a "brighter light" that would cause "old things to pass away"- in short He was ending their world and bringing in a new paradigm shift to deepen the drawing of all men into Abel, the servant of God and man.

But I fully agree with you that there is an abundance of Christian Pharisees today- and I truly believe Jesus would receive the same treatment from them if he were to come and start turning up the secrets buried in their soil.

Also, and I would say we must not forget.....God does punish people in Jesus' paradigm and the NT. Christ makes this clear in many places as do Peter, Paul, John, James, Jude and the writer of Hebrews. Fortunately in the mercy of God that punishment is for their recovery and awakening. The law was just  insufficient to that task- but it laid the groundwork as God has been dealing with the corporate body of "humankind" progressively through the administration of the fulness of times.

Remember Jesus said, "Moses gave you divorce because of the hardness of your heart but from the beginning it was not so?"

Under the OT the heart of mankind was harder, we were "deeper in the tohu wabohu", there needed to be "harder cleared lines" and "lower standard based on lower ability" ;o)

We were in the infancy of man....or perhaps, under Moses, the "toddlership" of humanity lol

God has been working with mankind as a whole in stages. Much of the Old Testament can be explained by the fact that since Jesus Christ(veil was torn in His body) the consciousness of all mankind has changed. A major paradigm shift occurred.

When Jesus returns there will be another veil rent and another major paradigm shift. Violence will be rarely seen in the earth, and even the instincts of predatory animals will be changed, and the whole world will enjoy a rennaisance that staggers the imagination- the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

Every plant God sows rises up and then dies as the "ax is laid to the root of the trees".... we (humans )see the corruption of that rotting dead tree or the flames of its burning and we say oh that was so terrible, and it was, but this is how light shines out of darkness and newness and fulness arise out of "tohu wabohu"...(without form and void)

With each stage the corruption of the preceding age is seen, and rightly so- as a "darker light". But the "darker light" was only so because our eyes (corporate man) are only just becoming able to handle its brightness, as God sets us free from futility into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

Abraham was a Lampstand to Israel....Israel was a Lampstand to the world....the children of God(ecclesia) are a Lampstand to Jew and Gentile alike....reconciling all things as sons and a holy priesthood with the Lord Jesus

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. (2 Cor 4)


The stages of God's dealing with corporate man, as I see them, are roughly as follows

From Adam to Noah- ancient man, the flood,

From Noah to Moses- the patriarchs, the exodus

From Moses to David- the law, the judges

From David to Messiah- the kingdom of Israel, the prophets

From Messiah till 2nd advent- the kingdom of God, the ecclesia

From the 2nd advent to the Great White Throne- the period of the restoration of all things, the revelation of the children of God-

Beyond that I can't see but I am sure there are more stages to the restoration of all things as the light grows until God is "ALL IN ALL" and there are no longer any adversaries, no longer any hostiltiy, no need for "rule, power or authority"- just love in the sunshine of His presence and glorious freedom that love, which is the essence of God, allows in creativity, union, diversity and harmony

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 2 Cor 4:4-10


Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:17-19

In each new creature old things pass away and a new paradigm is revealed- the life of Christ the second Adam, the new man, the image of God.
:2c:

[marie glen]

I think it's wonderful how Paul said the law was a tutor until Christ... Also the law, I believe it's Paul who wrote, was to show us all we are flawed.. "all fall short"

And most of all I love how Jesus said "unless your righteousness" (rightness) "exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees" not only because they fell short of it anyway, but as a way of saying unless your righteousness exceeds the law..

Paul said the law is for the old man (the flesh, which is the fallen and flawed nature / not matter as the gnostics thought).

The law was there to remind a person each day.. do not murder, do not cheat.. etc.

But grace, is in the heart. When we rise each day we don't usually have to think, now self, do not murder.. do not seek to fraud.. "for the love of God is shed abroad in our heart".. and "love works no ill" - to truly have love/God in the heart is to not want to harm, not even to benefit self.. (Not to say we are free of all selfishness, as of at this point, I consider myself quite selfish and quite lazy).

But I believe the old man, the nature w/o God on the throne to be a bottomless pit of potential, one I believe we will all come to see is within each one of us.. hitler? pol pot? stalin? potential that is in every one of us.. If we had never been saved that is. Predator-ness is the opposite of God, I believe, and it very much needs "the law"..
Have I gotten off on a tangent..? :dontknow: :soap:

[anti_nietzsche]

Eagles, I am taking this further. I believe that God wants for us to follow a spiritual law of freedom, not the literally read law of of Moses. We must be like Jesus himself and take the good from the law and not take the bad. Like Paul explained, the literally understood law is only the power of sin. That is why we must interpret it differently. We can do that in a christological way (ie the church is the bride of Christ, man and woman become one flesh), but we can also do that through spiritual interpretation and understand the different levels of meaning in the hebrew text (made a post about this recently). The law understood literally does not give us peace and does not give God glory. But a spiritually understood law is a law of freedom. It is the law of Christ then. As an example, when the Pharisees came to Jesus to have him stone the adulteress, he said, let the sinless throw the first stone. That really means, only the sinless can perform capital punishments, and there is no one sinless around except Jesus, and He does not want to condemn anyone. That is how Jesus interpreted the law, and in that spiritual interpretation there is no death dealing and killing and cutting off hands and feet. There is life and freedom instead.

[eaglesway]

If you read my post I think you should see that I agree, God has taken it further and will take it further still. The covenant of grace definitely transcends the covenant of law.

I think it is pretty obvious that there is no cutting off of hands and feet under Jesus Christ. However even a casual reading of His own words reveals there is still judgment for willful sin, altho that judgement will clearly be met with, and eventually overcome by, mercy in every case..

Freedom from sin is the glorious benefit of the new creation in Christ Jesus. Everyone who is in Him is growing in that freedom, tho for a time it may seem as though that growth is as the travail of childbirth. :o)

[Eduard]

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

God does not lie, or change either.

[sheila]

the laws dealing with the thief..was restitution several-fold.greater is he that gives then he that recieves. the greater light is working with

your own hands to provide for yourself..and giving to those who have need.The littl guy in the tree that gave away half of all he possessed

comes to mind.

   a new believer can put to death/cut off his hand as to seeking his own gain....and instead be as Christ and give freeley.Seek the gain of

his fellowman..Forgive freely any debt.

   Do you think God keeps the law in His spirit? I do. if a man blinds the eye of his slave/servant he must let him go free.

  it is written you must not put an obstacle in front of a blind man.....Adam and Eve were naked and not ashamed[blind to it]

....then their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked.   Father,forgive them..they know NOT what they do....

   ...because 'you say you see' your sins remain.  Israel...was blinded..in part..until the fullness of the gentiles come in.

    Jesus come to open the eyes of the blind and ears of the deaf and set the captives free.