The Creation of the Waster

[jabcat]

If I seem harsh, I assure you it's because I had every intention of being perceived that way.  Now God bless you. I shall be on my way.

have a good journey

[GodIsLove]

I want to clarify my *current* thoughts (subject to change based on God revealing to me that I am wrong, either in this life or the next!):

I do not believe in new age beliefs.  I do not belong to a Christian denomination right now, though I wholeheartedly am a Christian.  I am instead studying the bible and praying a lot, hoping for God to guide me through the scripture and prayer versus having humans in a hierarchical church teach me their thoughts (which I have done in the past).

I think that it is possible to believe that God created evil AND that God HATES evil, as should we. 

God created Satan.  So was God surprised when Satan sinned?  No!  He created Satan, and he is omniscient and knew what would happen.  There are scriptures to support that Satan fell and others support the idea that he was sinning from the beginning, so either way, if Satan fell, God knew he would.  If Satan was created to be the adversary and accuser from the beginning, then again God did this for a reason. 

I believe, again, that God hates evil but it does exist in the world that God created, and I used to buy the "free will" argument but I no longer think that is sufficient.  God created everything.  Numerous passages in the bible support that God is in charge.  I think suffering and evil has a purpose.  We can hypothesize as to what the purpose is, we can look to scripture to see what it says on the matter, but in the end, we may not know 100% until God reveals it to us all. 

In my previous post, I attached the link to concordant.org because I found the articles enlightening.  They are not new age at all, and instead are very biblical. 

Other scriptures that led me to this understanding:

Romans 9: NIV: What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.  One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'  Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory"

Therefore, God is in charge.  It is hard to get the idea that we have "free will" from this passage. 

Another: 

Romans 11:32 "God locks ALL up together in stubbornness that He should be merciful to ALL." 

And creation of the waster:

Isaiah 54:16 "I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy." 

1 John 3:8: "The Adversary (Satan) is sinning from the beginning." 

From concordant.org (this website contains the Concordant Literal translation as well as various articles and the website authors support the Christian UR position):

"Sin has an essential, though transient, part in God's purpose. God made due preparation for it before it came. The Lamb was slain from the disruption of the world. Creation may reveal some aspects of God's power and wisdom, but His love can be displayed only where sin has sown the seeds of hate. There can be no Saviour apart from sin. There can be no reconciliation apart from enmity. God locks up all in stubbornness in order that He may be merciful to all.

Shall God's affections remain forever pent up in His own bosom? Shall He never taste the sweet response of love? Then all He needs is a perfect universe, where His creatures have no need of Him and His gracious ministrations. But if He wants the deep satisfaction of requited love, and desires to impart to His creatures the delicious sense of His fatherly affection, then there must be distance, distress and condemnation, to form the field for the exercise of His favor.

Since sin must enter this scene and play its part, since it is essential to God's purpose, and absolutely under His control; since it will eventually change the universe from cold, independent creatures into a loving family circle, and God from a distant Creator into an affectionate Father, it was by no means a mistake (or sin) on God's part when he created a creature who should not only sin but should scatter it in all creation.

We have now arrived at the heart of the problem. It was no mistake for God to create Satan, for the adversary did exactly what God had planned he should do. And the astonishing conclusion forces itself upon us that, the moment we try to shift the ultimate origin of sin to Satan, then we are making God a sinner! For, if God did not intend Satan to sin, but he did it on his own initiative, then God missed the mark!"

And I want to close with saying that I am earnestly looking to God and scripture for all answers.  I am new to this forum but I love that we are able to discuss these things with relatively little discord.  I know that NONE of us will have all the answers in this lifetime, and that is also God's purpose. 

[Lazarus Short]

It is milk to say that evil can not come from God.

It is strong meat to look up "evil" in a good concordance, and see all the times God did evil, or repented of the evil He had intended to do.  He even states plainly in the Scriptures that He made evil, but I can't find the book/chapter/verse.  Evil is a teaching tool, just like Paul wrote about - we are raised with admonitions and the rod of correction, and it is unpleasant at the time, but produces much fruit in us.

EDIT:  I was reading in Isaiah after posting the above, and there it was:  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (45:7)

Can't you see and understand the terrible danger, and tremendous harm in this doctrine you're promoting? It's a work of Satan to say that God in anywise approves of his activities. There are too many things much too hideous to speak of which must be granted legitimacy if one accepts that God is the author of evil. This simply cannot be a point of discussion, unless we have no shame. That quote from Isaiah has a particular context, where the Lord is speaking of Cyrus, the Persian king whom He has commissioned to conquer Babylon. The Hebrew word, rah, raw-aw, translated into English as 'evil' has a great number of nuances, so context is very important.  In this instance it's contrasted with peace, which the Lord is bringing to an end for the time being. For goodness sake, even today there are little children being stolen from their homes and sold into slavery as sex objects. We cannot say that God is the author of this, even if He has accepted ultimate responsibility, which He has certainly done through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ.

I didn't realize that this is a New Age, it's all good type of forum. I can't participate in such a thing.

"It's a work of Satan to say that God in anywise approves of his activities."
Let's deal with that.  In the book of Job I recall that Satan made a proposal to God to do such-and-such to Job, and God agreed for Satan to do it (I'm sure He knew the outcome.) but He put limits on the evil that could be done.  Within these limits, God APPROVED - even to the death of those around Job.  You've got to get your mind around that.  God plainly says that He created evil, it was He who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden (apart from Him was noting made that was made), it was He who made Satan (but not Hell), and it was He who Moses dissuaded from doing evil to the children of Israel.  Open your concordance and look at all the references for "evil" - can you begin to see that God uses evil as the Rod of Correction?  God has great purposes in mind, and He is sovereign in how He reaches those purposes.  He also tells us it is none of our business, with His comments on the pot questioning the potter.  Beyond that, do not blame God for the evil men do, for all that kind of evil happens because men have forgotten God.

Still think I'm New Age?

[Ross]

 " God has great purposes in mind, and He is sovereign in how He reaches those purposes. "

Amen!!

The power and ability in the resurrection will be of incredible magnitude.
In the flesh; before we drive a powerful vehicle we have to learn to right way from the wrong way. There will be ramifications of recklessness if this power is mis-used.
In the spirit we also need to learn that cause and effect principle so as not to incorrectly use that power.
Christ demonstrated that by His ministry and the fact of giving up His position of power so as to die for us. This being that prime example of not letting power go to your head.

All pretty amazing really.

[Ross]

" Beyond that, do not blame God for the evil men do, for all that kind of evil happens because men have forgotten God."

I.M.O This is why there will be a millennium where Satan is locked away for 1000 years- man will no longer be able to blame Satan for everything.
We get examples of this when people try to sue others for something when the truth exposes them as the cause of the scene in the first place.

[anti_nietzsche]

I often despair at the thought that God could have created any true evil. It's a question like the one about war - everyone who has experienced it will say that war is terrible. And that the religious should not be so haughty to simply presume that God creates war. Isaiah was living in a time when war seemed preferrable to peace for the righteous. Circumstances were awful. Peace seemed like to lead into even more corruption. So Isaiah (who may stand for a group of resistance prophets and priests and ordinary men) tried to consider war as a godsent under certain circumstances. I think we can all agree that most wars are sinful because they just mean bloodshed and violence and robbery on a greater scale. So only some wars are good. What I mean is, Isaiah may have thought that some evils, in certain times, can be good things. It is similar to world war 2 when the allies attacked Germany. They shot men and allowed their own men to be killed. It was an evil, but it was necessary and the outcome was good. Giving peace to Germany would not have been a good idea.

[Aerex]

" Beyond that, do not blame God for the evil men do, for all that kind of evil happens because men have forgotten God."

I.M.O This is why there will be a millennium where Satan is locked away for 1000 years- man will no longer be able to blame Satan for everything.
We get examples of this when people try to sue others for something when the truth exposes them as the cause of the scene in the first place.

It also says that man will go against God after Satan has been released. So I don't see a point to that argument.

The greatest evil that has ever happen in human history was the death of Jesus Christ and God is the one who ordained /ordered it to happen. This is the same God who ordered Abraham to kill his son Issac for him. God can commit evil because good will always come from it and He knows the end from the beginning. Man cannot do this because his motive is seflish and generally are ill informed. Sin is a mistake; it doesn't necessarily connect with morality.

This is not to say that we should love evil but we should see it as a tool for us to be humble. We should always resist evil. We should comforted that God is the one in control of evil and not some luantic demon.

[Ross]

" Man cannot do this because his motive is selfish and generally are ill informed."

That was pretty much the point I attempted to make.
Just that at the moment man seems to try to blame something or someone when he makes a mistake. Won't be able to do that anymore.
The ill informed is also right on the money. Correction of that incorrect data will be a mammoth change.

[ian]

An echo of what you all were saying, with perhaps some minor distinctions. As I see it, the Father willingly gives us over to evil to demonstrate contrast (as a consequence), see Romans 1. In other words, He created the wicked one because He isn't evil. Our Savior explains the wicked one, according to John:

"You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Father in heaven, father of earth. The Father doesn't make mistakes, likewise His Champion predates the purposeful disruption:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
Eph 1:4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight...

As for natural disasters/sickness and so on, I'd call that a natural timeline of sorts. The result of evil, not acts of evil.

[eaglesway]

The web-site here at Tentmaker is for the discussion of  the Salvation of All. While we allow other discussions to go on, when they concern issues as hypothetical as this one, we have to be sure to speak as those who offer suggestions based on their own imperfect and necessarily incomplete viewpoint.

As far as the mystery of evil is concerned.... My opinion is that God's ways are higher than our ways and His mind is past "finding out". We as immature beings offer our opinions as if they revelations into things God has not given all the inside informationout, "Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor."

We know God is in control and sees the end from the beginning. Beyond that, I don't think He has given us the details because it would ruin us if He did. He has left us with the necessity of trusting sometimes, and humbly offer our opinions as just that- opinions.

One of the surest evidences of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the tendency to want to break through barriers God has set in place, to believe we can break dowwn every mystery into its basic elements, and that we should promote our dubious and incomplete conclusions as facts among these "issues" are things like

The Balance between Predestination and the stewardship of man's will

The mystery of the Godhead

The state of the dead

The problem of evil

I personally have little respect for the opinions of anyone who believes they have presented the bottom line on any of these matters, especially if they question the spirituality of anyone who disagrees with their conclusions.

Just making a point, since this is a discussion that cycles around periodically and sometimes becomes divisive.

[Seth]

I don't think anyone who is familiar with our conversations could find a trace of New Age philosophy here. As far as I understand New Age philosophy revolves around evil being an illusion and that we are all God collectively, in some kind of universal consciousness. I haven't seen anything like that in this conversation or in others by regular members here. The idea that God would use or create evil is as far from any New Age concept of God that I have ever seen. This forum is as Christ-centered, cross-centered, and grace-centered as a Christian could want and I wouldn't be here otherwise.

[Aerex]

I apologize if my topic has lead to controversial subject. I will take head next time. I would agree with Seth. Evil isn't an illusion like those in Christ time did not Jesus did not actually come in flesh. Since God created evil it is very real but it has its purpose like anything else.

[jabcat]

Nothing to apologize for.

I don't think anyone who is familiar with our conversations could find a trace of New Age philosophy here. As far as I understand New Age philosophy revolves around evil being an illusion and that we are all God collectively, in some kind of universal consciousness. I haven't seen anything like that in this conversation or in others by regular members here. The idea that God would use or create evil is as far from any New Age concept of God that I have ever seen. This forum is as Christ-centered, cross-centered, and grace-centered as a Christian could want and I wouldn't be here otherwise.

:2thumbs:

[eaglesway]

 I would disagree that God created evil, but I would not speak my opinion about it as established fact since there are brothers and sisters I respect who have a different opinion.

I could give my verses(1 John 1:5; James 1:13,14) and say "So it is clear Good did not create evil" but it would accomplish nothing as others would respond to me with theirs and around and around we could go.

My view is that there is a secondary tier in the levels of responsibility for actions. If God creates mankind in His own image and as such allows them to choose evil, and increase in evil(evil as wickedness) then God has allowed evil and is responsible, but did not directly create it. He will moderate it(judgment), He may call us to allegiance with Himself for the purpose of combating it(discernment). He has a purpose in all of it, but He does no evil as wickedness, nor does he condone any wickedness or wicked act.

He created chaos, and allows wickedness to flourish in it through us, within limits so that we can learn and be transformed(light shall shine out of darkness)as we overcome it and become one with Him in the glorious freedom of the children of God- and I know some will disagree with my view and some will agree with it.

This is just my opinion about a great mystery. I am sharing it for the sake of others who may feel the same way.  No offence is taken or intended in disagreement, but I disagree that God created evil in any sense that He created wickedness, commits any wicked acts, or created evil in the sense of sin. In my opinion that is our claim to fame.

What God allows us to create goes to sovereignity/man's will, and I would hate to open that can of worms again,  :laugh:.

[jabcat]

As usual, there are nuances here and there that lead to other rabbit trails, but overall, I personally think that's very well put John - in agreement with much. 

[eaglesway]

Yes, nuances and rabbit trails abound :yes: