Hell and Salvation

[GerWat]

I've been struggling with rectifying the need for salvation with UR for some time.  Last night I received an insight that resulted in my writing the following document.  Would love to have y'all poke holes in it to help me polish it.

2015 Oct, 08      Hell and Salvation

It occurred to me in the night, download from God no doubt, that the common teaching of Hell as Dante's Inferno where we are punished after death is a severe disservice a world needing a different kind of salvation.  Hell can't be truly supported by scripture anyway, it's a pagan invention.

Just as in Adam all men were lost so in Jesus all men are saved.  This is a corporate salvation resulting in the gates of Hell being broken down forever.  I'm not sure about Heaven.  Adam is symbolic of our own will, Jesus symbolic of God's will.  When our will places us at odds with God or the laws of nature, we still pay, just not in Hell.  Some learn quicker than others but all eventually turn to God for help, in this life or the next, which He is ready, even eager, to give, though it can be hard to recognize and accept.

While I don't believe in an eternal Dante's Inferno, I DO very much agree with a personal hell that everyone experiences at some point in their life.  THIS hell has a lot of support in scripture.  I.e. the destruction of Egypt for their harsh treatment of the Jews, the destruction of Canaan for their child sacrifices, Sodom and Gomorrah for their sodomy, the exile into Babylon.  The "sin" of following our own will into worldly pleasures will catch up with us as a personal hell of addiction, financial loss, abuse, relationships lost, unplanned pregnancy, abortion, depression, suicide, demonic attack and a host of other unrewarding hardships. 

AND I believe in a corporate hell.  Europe and America's love affair with all things pleasurable, as in the heyday of Greece and Rome, will result in America's fall and an Islamic army is at the door waiting to deliver the blow.  IF you are a consumer of internet porn; IF you support abortion; IF you abuse your body with drugs; IF you're work or pleasure is more important than your relationship with family and neighbors; THEN you are part of the problem.

Salvation likewise has an individual component.  "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9.  This will require some work but what we are going for here is God's blessing upon our lives.  In addition to blatant sins like murder and theft, for which we may have to do time or restitution, sinful judgments, curses and confessions stand as roadblocks to God's blessing but He has given us the Holy Spirit to teach us and bring to mind those things that need repentance, that is, we confess the sin and He breaks that chain off of our heart (psyche), allowing greater ability to hear and work alongside of God.

Gerald Watts

[Lazarus Short]

First off, remember that Dante's Inferno is a work of fiction, as is Milton's Paradise Lost, though I expect Milton is on a somewhat more solid Biblical foundation, since Dante was guided by the pagan Roman poet, Virgil.  Mary K. Baxter's accounts are fiction.  The gates of Hell are a fiction - none to be broken down, except maybe in the sense of a parable.  As for this or that in our own lives being a "hell," remember that all of God's judgments, past or present, Biblical or secular, happen in the real world, not in some metaphysical realm.  I'd just as soon get rid of the hell concept entirely.  Even so, I GET what you are getting at.

You know, just about every large religion preaches/teaches Hell.  It keeps the masses in line, generates money, and on and on.  But wait - Christianity is distinct from all the others, right?  Hell is a pagan myth, a literary fiction, a theological blasphemy - bad translation followed by bad interpretation.  Hell has no proper place in our worldview.

[Ross]

Those that use the hell-fire and brimstone do not know how the resurrection works.

The clearest example of scaring people with the teaching of condemnation being so far from the truth is when looking at our family in the flesh.
We get no say in being born. We grow and make many mistakes as we grow. We get corrected or punished as required for the situation.
At NO POINT are we ever no longer part of that family.
These hell-fire condemnation teachers deny that Christ would achieve what He came to do.
He came to set us free. He was 100% successful.
Man can only begin to comprehend as He teaches us- ergo divine revelation- so that we will all be equal as sons/daughters of the living God.

In the spirit we are born again of God through the seed of Christ.
To then say we will be suffering for eternity denies that position and diminishes the abilities of our God who has made the provision of that position.

1 John 3;1, Look what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we may be called the sons of God.

Amen!

[GerWat]

Looks to me like we're in full agreement on ET but that's not the point.  I know Dante's Inferno is a work of fiction, I said as much.

Jesus spoke often of certain activities labeled "sin," landing us in unpleasant circumstances, Hades, Sheol, Valley Hinnom.  I.e. Calling someone fool risks a trip to Gehenna, perhaps this means the fellow may well punch your lights out, eh? 

In my attempt to make sense of His admonition to confess your sins and be "saved" it's necessary to define, "saved from what."  If that's not ET then it has to be unpleasant results of our sinful lifestyle does it not?  What else is there?  There's voluminous examples of how sin lands us in hot water, the fact that I call these "a personal hell" or a "corporate hell" is merely semantics, it's my way of saying "trouble will hound us".

I'm currently studying how to live a miraculous lifestyle with a bunch of staunch ET believers, I have to be able to articulate how this all works. 

[Ross]

" If that's not ET then it has to be unpleasant results of our sinful lifestyle does it not?  What else is there?  "

Yep!!
Consequence of actions.
This seems to be a part of learning. Basically cause and effect.
Correcting anyone is not pleasant at the time, but necessary so as to learn.

[Ross]

" In my attempt to make sense of His admonition to confess your sins and be "saved" it's necessary to define, "saved from what." 

Definitions seems to be a point about any 'contract' or position.

I.M.O confessing sins is the recognition of being a sinner.

The law defines sin.
Ergo breaking a law is sin.
The consequences of sin is death.
This seems to emphasize that sin demonstrates inappropriate behaviour is not permissible at all.
Plus Christ stated that even thinking about breaking a law was just as guilty as committing that act/sin.

Correctly teaching this concept  needs to be clear and defined so there are no disagreements about the purpose and end result of the law.

This then creates the point of reference to correctly teach why the sacrifice of Christ was necessary for the remission from the consequence of our sinful nature and actions. Which in turn then seems to solidify that work as essential to establish our righteous position before God as being totally immersed in Christ.

Christ did not come to convert Israel. In fact He kept His position hidden from them. He had to do this otherwise they would not have crucified Him. Which would have meant He would not have been sacrificed for mankind. Which would allow works to earn salvation, instead of Grace to provide salvation.
This would then in turn allow considerable inequalities of position and status to fester.

So the whole thing about confessing sins establishes the need for Christ to save us.

What does this save us from?

The fear of failure to be able to stand before the presence of our creator Who is so powerful and righteous. The fear of not even being able to come into His presence because of the magnitude of His glory.
Not in fear of eternal damnation. We have the secure position as children of God in Christ.

Before knowing the truth about Christ there was always that fear of inadequacy.
Had I confessed everything?
Had someone in my family many generations ago committed some sin of size so great as to be inflicting disease of curse?
This is all traceable to the accusations of the law.

Christ has covered us with righteousness.

So much like being able to freely come before the most high person on the face of this planet without fear of being cast from his presence. Imagine going boldly to your president without being frisked/ stopped by security.

No church will recognise this data because it is not their time to know yet.
Only those who our Father wants to know are currently aware of this information.
Others will learn in their own due time.

When I was corrected there was the need for the removal of much rubbish. More still gets peeled away everyday.
This was done dramatically for me.
Imagining  magnifying the drama necessary for the correction  of mankind is mind boggling.

I.M.O highlights the need for the correction to go through significant phases so as to bring in the true equality of mankind.
We learn as individuals because we are all children in the same family. Just some are older than the others.
I.E first born. Same family just different birthdays.

Trying to convince others is the work of Christ. He will provide the necessary words at the appropriate time. The very point he made to the disciples about not thinking what to say.
Personally knowing the truth makes us become a living example that others will ponder about and will not be able to fathom unless God wants them to do so. His timing, not ours. Just press on as the light with Christ as our strength. Answer as asked, don't plan what to say.
Probably why we are to listen much and speak little.

[BenC]

Looks to me like we're in full agreement on ET but that's not the point.  I know Dante's Inferno is a work of fiction, I said as much.

Jesus spoke often of certain activities labeled "sin," landing us in unpleasant circumstances, Hades, Sheol, Valley Hinnom.  I.e. Calling someone fool risks a trip to Gehenna, perhaps this means the fellow may well punch your lights out, eh? 

In my attempt to make sense of His admonition to confess your sins and be "saved" it's necessary to define, "saved from what."  If that's not ET then it has to be unpleasant results of our sinful lifestyle does it not?  What else is there?  There's voluminous examples of how sin lands us in hot water, the fact that I call these "a personal hell" or a "corporate hell" is merely semantics, it's my way of saying "trouble will hound us".

I'm currently studying how to live a miraculous lifestyle with a bunch of staunch ET believers, I have to be able to articulate how this all works.

Here's a good lecture/ sermon entitled "Saved from Who? Saved from What?" by Santo Calarco, who knows just how to preach himself happy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LELGAbPZkJI

[sheila]

  I like your post Gerwat..and can relate to it...as I think many can.  It reminds me of the occasion when the tower fell and killed

people in Jesus day.  And he told the people to Not imagine that the ones killed were any more wicked then they were.Unless they

repent..the same fate awaited them.


    Israel was under enemy occupation because of their disobedience and in great danger of being cut off before God as His nation

  for special possession...and unless they repent and have their sins washed away through Christ...a terrible time was coming.[weep

  not for me].

   those that received Christ could be saved from that horrible national fate..   5 months of siege and slow starvation.[a truly

living hell/so to speak] of which those who believed Jesus fled the city at the right time/escaped.  The repentant that turned to God

escaped the wrath of God in His judgement when He set aside Israel at that time.[they agreed with the adversary[whom happened to be

  God of whom they were at enmity with,on the way to judgement/and made peace]


   who will save you from the flames of Gehenna?   that judgement that fell in 70AD was a flame of Gehenna......many bodies of

the dead were thrown into that very valley.The very walls of Jerusalem fell along with her towers. The Lord would have been a strong

tower that would never have fallen.  A dishonorable,ignoble death for a people/nation formerly in covenant with  God.


    America is in grave danger...I see parallels......


  we can see with our own eyes in this material creation alone..the folly of being in rebellion against God's counsel........

  the very fruit of our ways..  When we kick against His admonitions.


   the whole world needs to repent...ALL in ADAM[son of God] must be grafted into the Christ vine.  This whole earth has become

a nightmare of existence.. a living hell.. of suffering and death......because of corruption/wickedness.

[marie glen]

  Amen to all of the above..! We have to be saved from our self (I have to be saved from me!) Because sin (greek "missing the mark") results in (the wages of is) death.

So, what I have to be rescued from is death.. ceasing to be. I figure (and this was a download from God too :smile: ) God simply hAs to be Life itself. The life force. And also of course, He is perfect and perfection. In no way does He miss the mark! (Or He too would fade? yes? Impossible.)

So, imperfection is the opposite of life! Regardless of that notorious lie! "Surely.. you won't.. die..?!"

And then, too, I totally agree, all need to be saved from various things.. from heroin addiction.. to anything else...

Imperfect simply can never work. And there's only one source of perfection. :HeartThrob: