24 Reasons Hell Is Real

[marie glen]

There are 3 harvest seasons in real life and in God's Plan.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:Chinscratch: Mt 13:33 "Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

1 Corinthians 15:23,24 "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.."

[Horan]

Marie Glen, you said that to raise "...the not yet saved still in their sins and simply toss them into punishment, seems wasteful and not logical". And I entirely concur. The idea of it seems beyond belief, and also cruel, to raise up most of the people who have ever lived from their sleep of death, rub their noses in whatever they've done or not done, and then burn them to a crisp. And that's the nice version. The less nice version has them burning in torment forever! I suspect we're both referencing the end-of-millennium, 2nd resurrection, and I think this is where the biblical support needs to be found for universal salvation, that trying to work this out with the 1st resurrection is barking up the wrong tree, because there's obviously a selection that takes place at that time. I think those who are resurrected and translated at Jesus' 2nd coming will be spending that 1000 years continuing to grow and mature in Him, being prepared as ministers to that vast multitude who have not yet been reconciled to their Creator. And I suspect that the heavenly city, the new Jerusalem which descends to earth is not a literal city at all, but that it is simply us, or those who've joined Jesus in the air prior to the 1000 years. I think it's very important to nail this down, if it's true, with solid reasoning supported by scripture, because I can't imagine that God would wake all that vast multitude up from their sleep of death, only for the purpose of judging them, really sentencing them, just before either utterly destroying them, some more slowly than others, or tormenting them forever. I've heard one rationale for this being that all those living and all those who've ever lived need to see that God is just, but that's just stupid. as if we're incapable of understanding this without being witnesses to the most gruesome spectacle imaginable! Yet most of Christendom believes something along these lines.

On this site or another someone told me that judgment also means to set things right. Is it inconceivable that the elect, brought into Christ's kingdom at His second coming, will have been enlisted into His salvation army for the purpose of participating directly, with Him, in this aspect of the word, judgment? What does it mean to be rulers and priests with Jesus Christ?

[Horan]

And I'm sorry. I didn't realize how good these are:

Mt 13:33 "Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

1 Corinthians 15:23,24 "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.."

[Horan]

Is it possible that the lake of fire in Rev 20, if I may be so presumptuous, is us? My understanding is that water in Revelation is symbolic of people, in one sense or another. The fountain of living water is Jesus. Rivers are people. A sea is a multitude of peoples, nations and tongues. Since our God is a consuming, purifying fire, might the lake of fire be those raised up and translated at Christ's 2nd advent to become rulers, priests and judges with Him? The sea in Revelation is a diversity of peoples. Might not a lake be symbolic of a singular unity of them? This needs more than wishful thinking to support it. Interestingly, the first verse in chapter 21 talks of John seeing a new heaven and new earth, and there being no more sea; which might be to say, no more diversity of nations, peoples and tongues; which might be to say, that all will be singing the same song of praise to God almighty and victorious. Is this too much of a stretch?

On a different note I've copied and pasted this from a comment posted by Graph1159, where the first paragraph comes from the article which inspired this thread, and the second is Graph1159's comment on it, followed by my comment

If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent."

I do not know of any denomination that boldly teaches Universalism from a strictly Biblical standpoint. The more liberal denominations may downplay hell and loosen the requirements for salvation (possibily keeping a post-mortem door open), but I have not found a denomination that confidently asserts that Christ's death and resurrection has the redemptive power to actually draw all mankind back to God.

I'm somewhat in agreement with the author of the article in this matter, in that I see the potential problem with evangelizing universal reconciliation, given that people so rarely do the things they should do simply because they should, irregardless of consequences for either failing to act when they ought to act, or acting when they shouldn't. However, it may be that a doctrine of eternal torment for sinners, even though perhaps erroneous, has served a motivating purpose for a very long time, and simply is no longer necessary, given that we've arrived at the end of historical time as we've known it.

Jesus will soon be appearing in the clouds, very likely in my lifetime; which is to say, before twenty more years have elapsed, although I'd be surprised if He tarries more than ten, if I'm capable of reading the signs of my time with reasonable accuracy. He must come sooner rather than later, else no flesh will be saved. And since we're promised that there will be flesh saved, and no man can stand up persistently against the world that's rapidly being prepared for us and yet live, He must be coming quite soon. And for this reason I think that the terror and brutal deaths which will be experienced by all left behind can now, at this juncture, serve quite adequately as evangelistic motivation, obviating any dependence on a false doctrine of eternal suffering. In other words, if it can be legitimately taught that all will "eventually" be saved in terms of reason and scripture, the very real, impending doom facing many if not most, however ultimately impermanent, can be every bit as compelling and persuasive an argument as burning eternally in hell once was.

[Aerex]

I would agree that the lake of fire signifies the elect, those who will partake in the first resurrection.

It is stated that the elect will judge angels.

have ye not known that we shall judge messengers? why not then the things of life?
1 Corinthians 6:3 YLT98
http://bible.com/821/1co.6.3.YLT98

I don't think it is referring to just spiritual beings.

In regards to evangelism there never was an urgency to evangelize. The good news is a declaration, a statement. It is God who saves not man. We evangelize to show the world what God has done and what God is doing and what God is going to do. So in essence we would be saying that God should hurry up and save everyone now but we all know that is not Gods plan.

Furthermore I don't think it is wise to say when Christ will return because no one knows except the Father. IMO all you need to do is continue your life as you normally would humbly awaiting for his return.

[Horan]

 

In regards to evangelism there never was an urgency to evangelize. The good news is a declaration, a statement. It is God who saves not man. We evangelize to show the world what God has done and what God is doing and what God is going to do. So in essence we would be saying that God should hurry up and save everyone now but we all know that is not Gods plan.

Furthermore I don't think it is wise to say when Christ will return because no one knows except the Father. IMO all you need to do is continue your life as you normally would humbly awaiting for his return.

Perhaps urgency is neither the right word to use nor frame of mind to adopt; however, no man sows a field with the expectation of harvesting little, but with expectation of gathering in the greatest possible yield. I can't imagine that Jesus would regard the matter any differently, else He would not have enjoined His disciples to preach His gospel to all the world. Though we don't know the day or hour of His coming, is not Revelation a document intended to give us a sense of what to expect and when, at least approximately, to expect it? If we have just a penny's worth of human sympathy, don't we owe it to our neighbors to apprise them of the coming calamity, as well as His promise of salvation, however unpopular we might thus become? Certainly it's God who saves, not us, but I know from personal experience that He uses others to accomplish His work, or I would not be writing to you now. To explore this idea of universal reconciliation is a useless endeavor, if we have no intention of informing others of our findings, whatsoever they may be.

[Horan]

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Yet we know that there will be flesh saved, that there will be those alive at Christ's coming to be raised up, meeting Him and His resurrected dead in the air. And we should understand that no man or woman can stand against this world as it's coming to be and still live, because this world's message to all will very soon be to conform or die. I don't know the day or hour of His coming, but I'm simply not paying attention if I can't read the handwriting on the wall.

[Aerex]

Well perhaps I misconstrued my words as well. I am not starting that we should not preach the gospel of universal reconciliation. What I am saying is not depending on our evangelism to saving people (aka saving souls). We are not on some strict timeline. Some will be in the first resurrection and some will be in the second. There is nothing we can change that. Your right God does use people for his purposes but it is always God who determines the end result, right?

[Horan]

Well perhaps I misconstrued my words as well. I am not starting that we should not preach the gospel of universal reconciliation. What I am saying is not depending on our evangelism to saving people (aka saving souls). We are not on some strict timeline. Some will be in the first resurrection and some will be in the second. There is nothing we can change that. Your right God does use people for his purposes but it is always God who determines the end result, right?

As I understand, God determines everything, from the beginning, through the middle and to the end. I have no control over the heart and mind of another. God creates them, sets them upon their paths through life, guides them as He chooses, and brings us together or not as He wills.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15

And so it's been my hope to encounter others who can help me find support for universal reconciliation through scripture and sound reasoning, and indeed I have. Thank you. I haven't seen that the lake of fire might consist of God's people before this current exchange. Others' mileage may differ, but I'm entirely convinced that Jesus is coming very soon, and that for those who don't make the cut, it's going to be an extremely difficult, terrifying, and gruesome end, regardless that a happy ending awaits them eventually, so I'm compelled to conform my life as to make every second count. The prodigal son turned on His heals and headed home when he'd exceeded his tolerance for suffering, but I'm sure his father would have been delighted to see his son returning long before that moment was reached, and perhaps the time of his pain might have been considerably shortened if only someone had suggested he go home before he thought seriously of it himself. We're enjoined to love our neighbor as our self. How better might we do this? Indeed, God is entirely in charge of everything, but that doesn't give me an excuse for sitting on my hands.

[marie glen]

As I understand, God determines everything, from the beginning, through the middle and to the end. I have no control over the heart and mind of another. God creates them, sets them upon their paths through life, guides them as He chooses, and brings us together or not as He wills.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15

And so it's been my hope to encounter others who can help me find support for universal reconciliation through scripture and sound reasoning, and indeed I have. Thank you. I haven't seen that the lake of fire might consist of God's people before this current exchange. Others' mileage may differ, but I'm entirely convinced that Jesus is coming very soon, and that for those who don't make the cut, it's going to be an extremely difficult, terrifying, and gruesome end, regardless that a happy ending awaits them eventually, so I'm compelled to conform my life as to make every second count. The prodigal son turned on His heals and headed home when he'd exceeded his tolerance for suffering, but I'm sure his father would have been delighted to see his son returning long before that moment was reached, and perhaps the time of his pain might have been considerably shortened if only someone had suggested he go home before he thought seriously of it himself. We're enjoined to love our neighbor as our self. How better might we do this? Indeed, God is entirely in charge of everything, but that doesn't give me an excuse for sitting on my hands.

This is my goal too.. to have simple (yet profound:) truth and vision from God's word to easily pass on to others. I believe angles of darkness, er make that angels - though I'm sure there's plenty of angles of darkness too - do all they can to confuse the minds of we who are saved. Then, when we don't understand something, we end up doing loop de loops in our minds using God's Word. Things, or rather, anything, that goes beyond God's Word. They sound impressive, but they're merely smoke screens. Clever smoke screens.. Causing us to lose listeners.

I really dislike any such complications. I think God's Word is all truth, and that it is apparent.

Here's an example - just an example/ best example, not a thread within a thread, pls - straight forward reading, Mt 24: 29-31 (clipped for brevity) says "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds.. He will send His angels out to collect His elect.."

Where all the clever loop de loops come from, contradicting those very plain words, is beyond me.. "so shall it be as it was in the days of Noah, on the day he entered the ark.." More loop de loops contradicting those very plain and straightforward words.. I don't get it. Lack of true understanding makes us create in our mind things which go beyond.. or even against God's Word. Drives me crazy. Especially when everyone nods and says, yes, yes.. you are so right, I can see that loop de loop so perfectly.. :dontknow: ? I'm a down to earth gal. Just give me the straight scriptures. Nothing added. Nothing taken away.
   :Pray: :Peace2:
I find planting seeds of "good news" verses, using "all" work very well, simply quoting them to fellow christians (& ps 22:27).. mostly here on the internet..  posting about it from time to time on facebook (seen by friends, family and acquaintances there). But especially with the not yet saved, any chance I get (or opening) to mention how the message has been misconstrued.. That we're simply all learning good from evil (life from nonlife) (etc) I believe helps people to be more open to the message of Jesus and God's Kingdom.. [This blasphemy of "hell" (or even annihilation) keeps the good news very buried!!]

And I think you are right, if someone asks me for the proof, the references/verses, I should know where those verses are and what they say.. I also want to clearly understand Bible prophecy, especially of course 'end' times prophecy.. Not because I'm afraid (which is what one can get 'accused' of :icon_flower: ) but so I can pass on a clear helpful message for those days (esp the 'calendar' of Dn 12:11,12)..

In real life, as opposed to the web, so far, I know more 'preppers' or prepper interested, than I do those coming to the faith.. but I do believe walls are being torn down.. Trying to persuade too much, pushes people away.. or so I think, usually anyway.. God bless! His Word is Truth. :smile:

[Horan]

Interesting. I have an understanding; which is to say, something less than certainty concerning Daniel's 2300 and 1260 years, but know nothing about the 1290 and 1335 of Dan 12:11-12. I'll look into this. My understanding, again not absolute certainty, is that these should be understood as years rather than days, but I shall look into it.

But I'm nonetheless in agreement with you Marie, regarding the certainty of our Lord's literal return. I like the understanding of Him returning in great clouds of thousands upon thousands of gloriously radiant angels, but that too is open to contention, although His literal coming again is not, as well as it being abundantly clear that people won't be expecting it when He comes, that it will be as in the days of Noah, that they'll be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, right on until the end. How many times does He tell us that He will come as a thief, unexpectedly, by surprise?

And interestingly, in Revelation 16:15, right between the pouring out of the the 6th and 7th bowls, He reminds us that He will come as a thief, and we're enjoined to keep our garments, our being clothed in the Lord, lest we be found naked and ashamed. Therefore we should understand that even these last plagues can't be literal, else He simply will not return as a thief, but that these are symbolic of spiritual plagues, which have largely, already been poured out.

This may seem to be a digression from the stated theme of this thread, but you can't separate these things. We have both a first and second resurrection, and much scripture pointing to either one or the other or both of these, and if you want be able to defend a doctrine of universal reconciliation, you must nail down the appropriate context for it, and provide solid, rational, scriptural support. In the Bible-believing world, standing for universal salvation is swimming well against the mainstream. I don't for a second think getting this right is requirement for salvation, but it certainly is important with regard to teaching others, especially those who've absorbed an eternal hell-fire understanding, whether they've accepted it or not. If you can satisfactorily demonstrate that God's mercy is stubborn enough to overcome all obstacles, and that there's been a plan in effect since the beginning of time for accomplishing His conquest without any loss of life; well then, I suppose you've done all you can do.

[Horan]

And I think you are right, if someone asks me for the proof, the references/verses, I should know where those verses are and what they say.. I also want to clearly understand Bible prophecy, especially of course 'end' times prophecy.. Not because I'm afraid (which is what one can get 'accused' of :icon_flower: ) but so I can pass on a clear helpful message for those days (esp the 'calendar' of Dn 12:11,12)..

I'm not interested in prophecy because of fear either, but because I want to be able to demonstrate to others the veracity of Isaiah 46:10. Your mileage may differ, but my understanding of Revelation is that most of it has already happened, across the span of these past 2000 years, and that this is what now makes it such a powerful tool for exposition and evangelizing. I had forgotten that I'd previously examined the time prophecies in Daniel 12, the 1290 and 1335, and decided not to pursue because they didn't seem to provide any more significant information than the 1260, but seemed to be variations on the same theme. I still suspect this, but I probably better make an effort to nail these down. My understanding of the 1260 is that these days are a number of years, also expressed as a time, times and half a time, and also as 42 months which all, using the day for year rubric, evaluate as 1260 years, which has been very convincingly demonstrated to be the period of papal supremacy between 538 and 1798 A.D., when finally the pope was disposed by Napoleon's general Berthier, also convincingly demonstrated to coincide with Daniel 7:25 "And he (the Pope or Roman church) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: (changed the Sabbath and Ten Commandments) and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.", also convincingly demonstrated to be the same period of time depicted in Revelation 12, which rather convincingly depicts Christ's church under duress during this time. And that's not the end of the evidence for this either, so it would take a very powerful augment to convince me that these time prophecies point to anything else. although I should be open to it. Though it is difficult to parse and understand, I believe Revelation is telling a very simple, straight forward story that's very nicely anchored in the last 2000 years of history and that, except for the millennium part and what follows, only a very little remains to unfold.

But still, we can't know the day or hour. That's very clear. However, there are some things indicated which can inform us that we're getting close. And we can see with our own eyes, hear with our own ears the formation of a one world system. And already there is mounting evidence that the beast system will very soon be up to its old tricks, with a renewed and even more comprehensive persecution of Christ's faithful. I think we'll soon be hearing a very, very loud outcry for oneness and unity, for the good of all, and a growing to absolute intolerance for any deviation from the conformity such world unity requires. I think these things are clearly being played out in our own lifetimes, and I'm thus convinced Jesus will be returning very soon, else no flesh will be saved; which is to say, any living faithful with be either dead or converted to apostasy. Nobody can stand up against the beast indefinitely and live; therefore, Jesus must be coming very soon. Fearful? I want to become so good, so effective at evangelizing that they slice my head off! :)

[Aerex]

I don't quite understand why Jesus needs to come now given your reasonings.

[Horan]

I don't quite understand why Jesus needs to come now given your reasonings.

Aerex, that may or may not be because we have different understandings of the world we live in. I've spent the last ten years very intensely studying this world, trying to understand what's wrong with it, ever since I became aware that something was. Your mileage may differ. Certainly not everybody agrees with me, in fact in my own neighborhood I can find hardly anybody who does, since I live at the epicenter of progressive liberalism, you know, the humanistic belief in man's ability to perfect himself and that, in time, going forward, we shall be able to successfully evolve to our full, compassionate potential? I've been a conspiracy theorist for many years, never dreaming that my inquiry would lead me to Jesus Christ, and fundimetally so. And now I'm not such a conspiracy theorist anymore. It's all quite true, these conspiracies, but I now understand that there's nothing to be done for this world, and that Jesus has got the solution already covered. Still, I was seeing the handwriting on the wall before I understood who was writing it. I haven't the slightest idea how to condense ten years of studying these things into a single argument in support of the end being very close upon us, so I will need to content myself with doing my best to have a solid grasp of the evidence for Christ's solution, and expect that others will at least have a sense of what that handwriting means, given that it's not exactly necessary to spend ten years to understand that there's something very, very wrong. Still, don't be a fool for that pope who's getting so much adulation and attention; He's not what he appears to be. If you might be compelled to ask me why I say this, I suggest you probably know how to use the Internet as well as I do. You've heard of the inquisition, right? Nobody can stand upright in their faith against the beast and live, but Christ has told us that there will be faithful people yet living when He comes. "Be wise and serpents, yet gentle as doves." Observe this world with great interest, while waiting patiently on Jesus Christ.

God bless you Sir! :)
Mark

[marie glen]

..Not a calendar or date setting, but a counting backwards. Daniel 12:11,12 - "From the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, until the abomination that desolates is set up will be 3.5 (Hebrew) years, plus 30 days. Blessed is the one who makes it to 45 days later."

The "daily sacrifice" of course is usually thought, by Bible prophecy buffs to have to do with (finally) a third temple.. but I think it refers to a place of daily prayers and praise (in Israel). part of the reason I believe this is because when Jesus' disciples said to Him, speaking of the Temple complex "see all this..!" Jesus replied and siad "see all these, no one stone shall remain atop another."

Yet there, to this day, stands the Wailing (Western) Wall.. It seems to me this prophecy is saying when folks in that day see the removal, demolition or taking away of this wall, 3.5 (Hebrew) years plus 30 days later, the final abomination will be "set up", in this case, surely(?) the 666 apparatus. "And blessed is the one who waits and comes to 45 days later." I figure the 3.5 in this instance as years, as it hard for one to wait and come to 1335 years..

Not date setting.. but what "happy" thing occurs on day 45 of 666, or day 1335 after the (place of) of daily sacrifice/praise and prayers is taken away..

Daniel 12:11-12 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

(pasted) "11 and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual [sacrifice], and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
12 O the blessedness of him who is waiting earnestly, and doth come to the days, a thousand, three hundred, thirty and five."

The day for a year is how a thousand years, to YHWH, seems like a day..

Revelation 12 has a 3.5 (time, times and half a time which in that case I think is 3.5 modern divisions of time.. specifically 1620 + 350, bringing us to a flood/proliferation from the serpent guise of the dragon, flood of a social phenomenon which had been previously mostly hidden.. But, next verse, the earth will open its mouth and swallow the proliferation/flood - cross ref - Luke 23:28,31.

Drought.

Luke 23:28-31 - Jesus said to them, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for childrens' children.. For if they do this (crucify me) in a greenleaf, what will be done in the dry?

It would be good to warn folks of a coming drought. And I also think is a landmark, when the "perpetual" (praising) is brought to an end, whether having to do with a 3rd temple, or sooner than that :doh: if they see the wailing wall dismantled/removed in some way.. 3.5 yrs plus 30 days later - 666, which will hum along, for 45 days.

11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days."

...we can see with our own eyes, hear with our own ears the formation of a one world system. And already there is mounting evidence that the beast system will very soon be up to its old tricks, with a renewed and even more comprehensive persecution of Christ's faithful. I think we'll soon be hearing a very, very loud outcry for oneness and unity, for the good of all, and a growing to absolute intolerance for any deviation from the conformity such world unity requires. I think these things are clearly being played out in our own lifetimes...

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Absolutely! though I may be older than you.. :smile: Not that I still might not be here.. but I surely want to pass on clear and cohesive warnings to my kids and grandkids..

Speaking of the inquisitions.. Not many seem to follow what I'm saying when i say that too is is rev chapter 12. ..the dragon.. via Herod.. stood in front of the manchild (son of man) to devour Him as soon as born, but he now sits at the right hand of the Father.. the dragon was wroth.. the battle half done.. and when he found he no longer had any access to the heavens in great rage he persecuted/inqusitioned the woman/the faith, the mantle now worn by Christ-ianity.. But she, is given the wings of an eagle that she may fly (sail) to a new place (a 2nd migration of the faith, 1st is in previous verses).

She is kept safe from the face of the dragon for 3.5 (modern) division of time.. 1620+350=1970's.. til the serpent/dragon slews a flood after her in an attempt to wash the faith from off the earth.. (this flood followed the false prophet/teaching (and strong delusion) which allowed it and has turned christendom on its ear - These all of course are the prophecy pattern for late days, a different world from yesteryear and their beasts.. The adversary is an angel of light.. changing.. Not to say he won't use the pope or whomever he also can to contribute to the call for one worldness..

But the earth will aid the woman and swallow the flood.. then the dragon will return his attention to the rest of the woman's offspring who have the commandments of God and (by then) the testimony of Jesus. Remember how Jesus said to Jerusalem, you shall not see me again, until you say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" and Paul wrote, "If their falling away is our salvation, then what shall their redemption be but life from the dead?" - resurrection.. the first.

Notice how the inscription of $ity babble on (and on)'s forehead/psyche is responsible for all shed blood since Cain slew Abel.. Man's empire, including, and especially the final one world empire, where the kings/politicians are in bed with the harlot - The Greek=ing "pornos" and "to sell"... The harlot seduces all 7 continents mesmerizing them with her enchantments/charm. She will crash in one hour and fall in a day.. the merchants will weep for she made them wealthy by selling their products and luxuries, right down to the bodies of mankind(male and female). she has a frothing (golden) cup of her side effects which the nations shall drink of, the fornication, perversions, sex slave trade and the dissolution of society and family..

Capitalism went "pornos".. the ten kings/toes/horns/divisions of the (final) world beast/body will devour the harlot.. (Extreme) Socialism will finally consume (extreme) Capitalism.. "Ye shall have tribulation ten days" Rev 2:20. "Cannot buy or sell" 1290 days after (place of?) daily sacrifice/prayers is taken away, for 45 days with(?) the last ten days "will be killed" w/o "the mark"..

[marie glen]

uh oh, did I change the thread..? I can never talk about Bible prophecy within reason!

Back to the original topic.. UR to me, is simply a matter of redemption this side of life.. or the other side (for those of the 2nd resurrection which is "1000 years after the 1st) during a glorious 'day' of judgment when all of history (and its truth proving lessons) is examined by all.. I believe this because of the pattern of the ancient Fall Feasts, since the Spring ones were fulfilled by Jesus' first advent, then surely His long 2nd advent will fulfill the Autumn ones. Israel's annual national day of judgment, repentance and reconciliation was their Day of Atonement..

It's lovely how Day of Atonement flows into Tabernacles... Rev 21:3 & 1 Corinthians 15:23,24.

[marie glen]

..'hell', we could say, is a false prophecy.

The two, written in the scriptures as going to the lake of fire is the false prophet and the beast, specifically the 'big' beast of Rev 13:1-10, as opposed to 11-18, the 'little' beast.

Both of these "in the LOF" at the end of the age, are not persons.  :doh: What!?? I know, it's hard to believe I said that, but I'm quite serious. Two in the LOF. Not alive. (Imo). Even though the verse says they are thrown "alive" into the lake of fire. Logically, since they are not alive, it's likely they are - active - upon earth when Jesus returns.. and they are thrown alive into the lake..

The 'big' beast is of course, or will be, the world beast/body and the false prophet is that teaching and strong delusion which has turned Western Civilization on its ear. He too is in our faces as pretty as you please.

The Word of God is how much % prophecy? I forget. I just wanted to say 'hell' is a false prophecy.
But wait! One more weird thing.. I sometimes believe the lake of fire is just what it says, death. And along with that, of course, is the belief that no one goes there.

Perfect, which YHWY is, makes no mistakes. Loses nothing.

The 'end' result of all this - human history, etc., can only be the best one possible. Prophecy (I think) is the natural way things flow to get there. From point A to point Z. ..and a lot of logic which shines through to us in His Presence, the quietness.. Or rather, in His quiet Spirit..

[Horan]

I'm pretty sure now, though I'll need to study it some more, that the lake of fire is God's people. Again, your mileage may vary, but I understand that almost any sort of water structure in Revelation is symbolic of people, as are grass and trees. A sea, for example, is a multitude of nations, peoples and tongues. At any rate, though I'll need to study it some more, it seems like this understanding might resolve the issue of where (in Revelation) and when (in time) universal salvation takes place, because it can't be at Jesus' 2nd coming, which so many verses point to as a selective harvest event. The beast and false prophet are not people, in my understanding, but really institutions, or institutionalized ideologies. The beast specifically, in our time, is Rome, ridden by the harlot, or apostate church of Rome. My understanding is that the identity of the false prophet moves around a bit over time, but that in these end-times this is the United States, which is also the image of the beast. But I think there's a more generalized way of understanding these which pertains better to the post-millennial picture having to do with the marriage of state power and false religion, which references back to our three friends, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego being thrown into the fiery furnace for refusing to worship the statue, in defiance of state power, but in obedience to God. So if the lake of fire is God's people; which is to say, those reconciled to Him at Christ's 2nd coming and commissioned to be, with Jesus, rulers and priests of The Most High, I suspect this lake of fire is symbolic of the purifying and sanctifying work that will be cut out for them at the second resurrection, when Satan is loosed again to deceive the nations, and that the 2nd death either might not be a literal death at all, but a death of sin, and of corruption and of death itself, as indicated in the text, or possibly another harvest-time, though I'd like to lean toward it being the final death of sin and death itself.

[Seth]

My take on the LOF is that it is death in the Prodigal Son sort of way. I don't think that the LOF is people because Revelation describes God's people as dwelling within the city of New Jerusalem (the bride) separated by an open gate from the fire outside, and that nothing unclean may enter. Personally, I see the LOF as representing the sin that brings metaphysical death and destruction until the person repents and returns to God. The Lake of Fire is a death, and I believe the Bride offers life in constrast. My reasoning my be found here:

http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html

[Horan]

My take on the LOF is that it is death in the Prodigal Son sort of way. I don't think that the LOF is people because Revelation describes God's people as dwelling within the city of New Jerusalem (the bride) separated by an open gate from the fire outside, and that nothing unclean may enter. Personally, I see the LOF as representing the sin that brings metaphysical death and destruction until the person repents and returns to God. The Lake of Fire is a death, and I believe the Bride offers life in constrast. My reasoning my be found here:

http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html

Well, I don't want to argue, but only suggest you consider, though I can't imagine that salvation depends on this, that the city isn't actual, but symbolic, also of God's people, His saints, the fruits of His harvest after his first fruits, Jesus Christ.  And there's no open gate with fire outside in my Book of Revelation. There's mention instead of the nations being gathered to battle upon the breadth of the earth, compassing the camp of the saints about, although the fire is said to come down from heaven, which I suspect implies the Holy Spirit. I suggest 'camp' isn't synonymous with city, but that it's a symbolic reference to a spiritual battle, as an army makes camp or encampment.  I don't want to argue about your prodigal son notion, since he's always a great symbol of reconciliation. Isn't it fair to say these battles, Armageddon and Gog-Magog  are another way of expressing the same story? In chapter 21 there's quite a bit of detail about the Holy city, and its bejeweled gates. I'd suspect this also is not literal, but that all these precious jewels are symbols pertaining to Christ's character, and by extension, the character of His people, although I haven't examined the symbolism of jasper, topaz and such. I'll stick for the time being with people, that God's people comprise an Holy city, ablaze with the Holy Spirit, such that they are as a lake of fire burning up everything sinful and corrupt, until finally death itself is utterly consumed.

Thanks for the link. I've mailed it to myself so I can read it on my phone at work tomorrow.

[Seth]

Hi Horan,
I'm not saying you have to agree with me about it, just throwing my POV into the ring about why I have reservations about the LOF being people. I would agree that the language of the city is symbolic, but in Revelation I see the symbols describing both death and life with distinct symbolic references. The fire is a death, and the water of life is in the city. The open gate I am talking about is described at the end of Revelation 21, and in chapter 22, it describes how that outside are those who are not the bride. And at the end of the chapter it says

Revelation 22
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The bride is represented by the city. That's why they say "come" to those outside. And they offer water which brings life. All symbolic I agree. But I do see distinction between life and death and inside and outside being dilineated by the symbols, in my opinion. I don't believe the Bride is death, but the lake of fire is a death by definition.

[eaglesway]

I think the lake of fire involves the great assembly, including saints and angels in the presence of God and His holy ones.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Rev 14

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. Rev 20

2Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? 1 Cor 6

I also think the New Jerusalem is built of living stones, a habitation of God in the Spirit....

"This is the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face-- even Jacob. Selah. 7Lift up your heads, O gates, And be lifted up, O ancient doors, That the King of glory may come in! 8Who is the King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, The LORD mighty in battle....

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty

The lake of fire is an image for something the human mind cannot conceive(imo)- but I believe there is a literal correlation, it will take place in space and time(imo) because as long as there are adversaries yet to be purged and reconciled there will be death and time, hence the "second death" will not end until God is all in all.

Those are my theories about it, but mainly I just rejoice because whatever it is, the LOF will end with every knee bowed and every tongue confessing the Lordship of Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father.

11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5

:banana:

[Seth]

I definitely see a possibility that the LOF judgment could be mediated or administered by the Bride.  To me it fulfills a pattern that God worked through Christ and Christ therefore works through his people.

[eaglesway]

Amen!

[Rhodes]

If you have to scare them into the Kingdom with messages of eternal torment, you must also keep threatening them with that same fearful message. It all adds up to depression and anxiety for many in the congregation.
John the beloved disciple, who was the closest to the heart of Jesus said:

1Jn 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
1Jn 4:17  Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

It seems to me from these verses that most of the Church lives with fear as a constant in the background of their hearts. I know I did. I did not know it was there until it began to come out of my mouth in the things I was complaining about to God.
John speaks about

knowing and believing the Love God has for us

But it became obvious to me that God did not love me at all, but was going to torment me in Hell forever if I was not obedient to Him...or so I reasoned.
Just let Hell believers fall into some sin for a while so that they lose their cocky confidence in their own strength at serving God. Then their inner core beliefs about Hell will come up to torment them. It is at that time that God is able to open eyes to see that they have not known God at all really....but some other god..a god of hell and burning flesh., something the true God said never entered into His mind to do such a thing.

Jer_7:31  And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,(Gehenna) to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

Jer_32:35  And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.'