Do Ever Just Sort of "Give Up" For a Moment and Rebel?

[jabcat]

I struggle with a couple of things, sort of my "besetting sins", "weaknesses of the flesh", "thorn(s) in the flesh", whatever...For awhile I'm able to keep a pretty good direction on these things, then as days go by, I seem to struggle a little more, then I finally just talk myself into "it's alright, go ahead", or just allow myself to not care for a little while so I can do it.  One of these things is binge eating, what I've been feeling convicted over as being gluttony.  Maybe a week goes by, pretty good, then I'll just give in and grab sweets, cookies, Milk Duds, ice cream, chips, ad nauseum (literally) until I'm stuffed, not feeling well, and feeling guilty. I know it's not good for "the temple", don't see it as moderation, more so as gluttony.  I worry about these sort of things, feel condemned, "I've damaged my relationship/interaction with Father", etc.  I ask for forgiveness, kick myself, and move on....until the next time.

I usually also go through a session of "recommittment" which I also wonder about...Along those lines, just a couple of days ago instead of the "recommittment" phase, I remembered an article I'd read by Martin Zender about the scripture where Paul talked of buffeting (not as in food buffet) himself and bringing himself under submission to Christ.  His take was we don't do that by "forcing" the issue (i.e., recommittment, "I'll never do it again, etc."), but by turning our eyes toward the Son, so that He can do the work in us...easier said than done.  Because then I think about "our salvation's not based on works", but "what about winning the prize" that some say is by our works for God.  God has been giving me lately "looking to Him, the Author and Finisher of our faith".

I'm wondering what experiences others might want to share about these sort of issues, how you feel, what you think scripture says, how Father sees it/us, answers, suggestions.  God's blessing, James.

[jenna]

I know how you feel, Jabcat. My biggest weakness right now is smoking. I have tried many times to quit. I'll put them down and say "no more, that's it", only to be puffing away 10 minutes later. I know in my heart it is wrong, but I just can't seem to find the willpower to stop. :sigh:

[jabcat]

I know how you feel, Jabcat. My biggest weakness right now is smoking. I have tried many times to quit. I'll put them down and say "no more, that's it", only to be puffing away 10 minutes later. I know in my heart it is wrong, but I just can't seem to find the willpower to stop. :sigh:

Thanks for the honesty Jenna, and I'm sorry for you.  It's very difficult, isn't it?  If you don't mind, what else do you tell yourself, how do you feel and how do you think/feel it affects your relationship with Father?  I've heard so many things that I've internalized (or not been able to), such as "sin cuts off our fellowship with God", "God won't bless an unclean instrument", but then also, "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus".  I'm just not sure what to make of it all.

[jenna]

I feel it does affect my relationship with Him. I realize He still loves me, but I also feel each time I light up, I'm driving a wedge in between us, since I am choosing a cigarette over Him. It's very hard for me. :pitiful: :sorry: :help:

[jabcat]

Hopefully some folks will chime in with words from Father that will help us..I don't know, maybe it's all part of His will, as in trials bring strength, in our weakness He can be strong, all things work together for good, etc..Him refining us and teaching us how to rely on Him...thanks.

[SeekerSA]

Jenna

Can you show me where the verse is "Thou shalt not smoke, sniff snuff, or chew tobacco?"

While smoking may be harmful to your health so too is fast foods and may other things.

See the church has a sin-list and smoking and alcohol consumption is on their "unwritten" lists.  However gossiping and vain babblings, stuff clearly mentioned in the bible seems to be OK.  Do you not find that strange?

Again the irony is, tobacco must be the Lord's creation too, and apart from smoking, sniffing or chewing, it really serves no other purpose.

If you think it affects your relationship, it is in your mind.

Does not smoking make an unbeliever a believer?  While you focus on it you are sin conscious and you will try and rule it aka try give up.  The solution does not reside with you.

Blessings

[SeekerSA]

The preacher under who's ministry I came to the Lord, mentioned in his book that someone asked him if smoking is a sin and if it will send one to hell.

He said no, but it may make you smell like you came from there.  :laughing7:

You see this is exactly why I have been focusing on the law and Grace.

The enemy is quick to point out your weaknesses and hence keep you in the flesh trying to overcome them.  Strange how the enemy sits in the church hey?

Gen 4:6  And Jehovah said to Cain, Why have you angrily glowed? And why did your face fall?
Gen 4:7  If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at the door; and its desire is for you, and you shall rule over it.

Here is the clue.  Meditate on verse 7.

Just like the warning to Adam not to eat of the tree, aka dwell on it, the warning is given here in another way.

No one is without sin, NO ONE and yes that includes you.  If you are a Mr. or Mrs. Dooright then you are just like the Pharisites (a new name I have coined for the religious) then you remain in the flesh as you see your weakness as a barrier.

Jesus has set us free from all this, accept it.  The cop out of judgement in the church is "I do not judge you but what will others think?"

This was my pastor's line of reasoning when he found out I smoked.  I was judged in the flesh yet they forgot when I ministered, there was an anointing that few other P&W leaders had.  God was faithful to use my talents in spite of my weaknesses.

On another forum, the folk were discussing a guy who has a healing ministry and is used of God and they were looking at his 3 fleshly weaknesses and trying to figure out why God would uses him.  I said they cannot see his heart, they see his flesh, maybe his heart is in tune with the Father and hence he is used.  Others stay condemned and try making themselves right and hence never are available for the Lord to use.

It amazes me, at alter calls they sing "Just as I am" and afterwards the Just as I am must conform to said rules of church.  Ever thought Just as you are, is how the Father accepts you?

Blessings

[Kratos]

I would encourage you both to read Heb. 8-10 again where it teaches that the reason for the new covenant was that the old never had the power to make men perfect as pertains to the conscience. It is our conscience that separates us from God. We hide from God and it is never His hiding from us. The answer is revealed in the first part of chapter 10 where it reveals that those whom Jesus has perfected, He has perfected forever with one sacrifice once and for all. Thus, Jesus already paid the price for every sin we will ever commit so that we could constantly approach God with our conscience purged.

The truth is, our feeling of a defiled conscience is what strengthens sin. When you finally accept that God does not judge you for it, you will find it easy to leave behind.

John

[jabcat]

After reading a couple of the new posts, I went out on the web and looked a little about sin...I usually search first by typing in "(whatever the topic) tentmaker"...came across this on tentmaker, which I must say, falls more in line with how I see things, but I'll admit, sometimes the way I see things causes me problems...that's why this thread.  So I guess specifically, SA and John, if this pushes a "want to" button with you, how would you reconcile your view(s) with this view, especially (got to use that word) the scriptures that seem to indicate sin is still an issue to be dealt with?  Asking as a friend that's seeking :friendstu:.

from www.tentmaker.org

The Direct Route

The quickest way for you to know deliverance from the sin nature is for you to take Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Lord today. "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved: for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation" (Rom.10:9,10). The reality of your conversion will mean a changed life. You become a "dwelling place of God in the spirit" (Eph.2:22). Christ now lives in you (Gal.2:20). He becomes your source of love, wisdom, health, strength, and whatever else you need. "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace" (Rom.6:12-14). The alternative is.....

The Circuitous Painful Route

You can harden your heart to the gospel of Jesus Christ. "There is a way which seemeth right unto man, but its end is the way of death" (Prv.16:25). Then "Your own wickedness will correct you, and your apostasies will reprove you." (Jer.2:19). Scripture reveals that God has chastisements to correct and reprove every iniquity of man. God took the kingdom of the proud and wealthy Nebuchadnezzar away and give him the heart of a beast until he repented (Dan.4). God appointed a great fish to correct Jonah's stubbornness (Jon.1). The father let the prodigal son go his way until he came to the end of his self-centeredness (Lk.15:11-30). The apostle Paul turned a man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved (1Cor.15:5). Some people are saved "only through fire" (1Cor.3:15). Our Prayer For You

Dear friend, our prayer is that you come to Jesus Christ the direct route. Since it is inevitable that you will bow before Him, why not do it today? Would You Like To Pray?

Heavenly Father, I come to You because of Your mercy and grace revealed in Jesus Christ. I acknowledge my sin nature has separated me from You. I take Your Son Jesus Christ, as my Lord and Saviour and receive His righteousness proven in His death and resurrection, as the basis for my relationship with You. Cleanse me from all sin and fill me with Your Holy Spirit that I may live a life which is pleasing to You. Thank You for drawing me by Your great love. Amen.

[firstborn888]

The preacher under who's ministry I came to the Lord, mentioned in his book that someone asked him if smoking is a sin and if it will send one to hell.

He said no, but it may make you smell like you came from there.  :laughing7:

Can you smoke and still go to heaven?

Yes - in fact you will probably get there even faster  :grin:
- byron

[SeekerSA]

Hi James

wrt your last post I can only echo what John wrote.

The truth is, our feeling of a defiled conscience is what strengthens sin. When you finally accept that God does not judge you for it, you will find it easy to leave behind.

Rom 14:22  Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Blessed is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

One can take this verse as a sin justification verse but was something I received via another when I wrestled with the issue of smoking.  He saw that my entire focus was on the habit and not on the Father.  It is only the church that has made smoking a sin using verses like we are the temple of the Lord et al as if that pollutes God's lungs LoL  :laughing7:

Maybe my smoking has medical benefits for me, my doctor is always on about it and tested my cholesterol, something my parents both had and I am clean/normal, even the doctor could not explain it as by all accounts, I should have a problem.

There many things I do not do that defile the heart/spirit.

When you start with a sin-list, where or when do you stop?

Blessings

[firstborn888]

Can you chew tabbacco in heaven?

Yes, but you have to go down into hell to spit....

(sorry guys, this is all seekers fault - he got me started)
- byron

[Dreamer]

Jabcat, my 2  :2c: is that each of has his own conscience -- yours is different from mine, mine different from yours.  I don't know if it's the Lord dealing with you about this thing.  Only you know that. 

How do you walk around carrying this baggage?  Are you walking around constantly feeling condemned or are you just wanting to please the Father? There is a difference -- one pulls you down, the other lifts you up.  One is based on legalism and the other based on faith.

I once read, I can't remember where, that right after you meet Jesus, the Lord will immediately break you of some habits.  It could be things that you could never rid yourself of by yourself, but suddenly, He delivers you from that/those thing(s).  You could have ten bad habits and over time He'll provide deliverance from nine of them -- but then there's that tenth habit -- the hold out -- the one habit that you can't seem to get rid of.  That's your thorn, the one that He'll help you with but not necessarily take away.  This is the one "thing" that you'll always need Him for.  Because of this one thing you'll never stop needing, crying out to or reaching up for Him.

There are things that the Lord is dealing with me about and I know these things are being brought into the forefront (I had put them in the back of my mind -- I'll do them later...) because the things He's moving me into will make me a much more affective witness if I do them. 

I just know that if I want to make the most out of where He's taking me or doing in my life, I need to hunker down and do them.  No condemnation, just preparation for His blessings and to be able to show forth more of Christ in that assignment.

[CHB]

I once read, I can't remember where, that right after you meet Jesus, the Lord will immediately break you of some habits.  It could be things that you could never rid yourself of by yourself, but suddenly, He delivers you from that/those thing(s).  You could have ten bad habits and over time He'll provide deliverance from nine of them -- but then there's that tenth habit -- the hold out -- the one habit that you can't seem to get rid of.  That's your thorn, the one that He'll help you with but not necessarily take away.  This is the one "thing" that you'll always need Him for.  Because of this one thing you'll never stop needing, crying out to or reaching up for Him.

This is so true. Just think, if we were all perfect and didn't have anything to overcome or deal with, we would have no reason to pray, nothing to look to God for. I believe this is why we will have sin to deal with until we are changed to immortality.

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My :2c:. Let me start this by saying the LORD doesn't condemn you for any of those things, but He may be wanting to release you from the bondage of them, and it MAY be His dealing with you over that, that you are feeling. We are all individuals and the way He chooses to deal with or even release us from that which has us bound, can be very different.

On the smoking one you mentioned; my mother was a chain smoker for as long as I can remember. She told me it was 35 years. One day she was at work, and she heard the Lord's voice loudly and deeply inside her say, "Quit smoking!".

Now to us that sounds like a command, and it was, but not the way you might think. She did quit smoking that very minute and never touched another one the rest of her life which was many years, but she made NO EFFORT on her own to do it. The command came with instantaneous healing, TO HIS temple. She had no more smoker's hack, no cravings, NO DESIRE, to deal with at all. It was simply gone as if it had never existed. That's the "easy" way.

Second example; the Lord was using me to minister to a man who was an elder in a church, locally. After an hour of the Lord "reading his mail" so to speak, He showed me in the spirit that he had a nicotene spirit in his chest. I started to command it out, and for the first and only time in such a situation, I heard Him say, "NO!", very firmly. I was stunned, thinking, why then did you show it to me?

He said, "Tell him I delivered him from it twice, and twice by his will he took it back. Tell him I said THIS time, he has to fast before I'll take it out."

So I related to him what the Lord said, he confirmed it was the Lord, and asked me, "Did He tell you how long I have to fast?"

Now what I learned from this. As I have shared before, there are 4 parts to our souls, and each of these is destined to go (spiritually speaking) on the altar, offered up to the Lord, for the fire of His Spirit to consume. This is why there were 4 horns on the altar, 4 rivers coming out of Eden (which are consumed and become one again by Rev.), ect. The four parts are mind, will, emotions and desires. This is why we are told to make of ourselves a living sacrifice.

Desire is that the 4th part of the soul, which has to be dealt with, before the Lord will move. Desire is a powerful component, empowered by the spirit of man. I was shocked to find out how much so, when the Lord led me to fast on carrots and water years ago, for my mother when we found out she had cancer. I made it 32 days, with no hunger or weakness whatsoever, only because the Spirit was having me do it. Desire rose up in the 28th day; literally. I was very much aware of a desire that was not of the Spirit of God, I personally had felt no PHYSICAL hunger all this time, but suddenly desire definitely hungered and wanted to please itself and not the Spirit of the Lord. The desire of all nations shall come (and is coming now).

So the point is this. There are things I have overcome in my walk, that were instantaneous, because desire in that area had been decreased to the point that it was a no contest. I was delivered of some things 8 days after coming to the Lord, before I ever knew or understood what had happened to me, because I no longer had any desire to do those things. Some things we are freed from at moment of accepting Him. That's how we know we are different, that something really happened to us.

There were other things that I had to fast to overcome; not because the Lord requires it as a "condition" of our salvation, but because it weakens the flesh so that we "decrease" that He might increase. We are saved, spirit, soul, and body, in that order. We are told to work out our own deliverance (Gr. word here translated salvation elsewhere) with fear and trembling. THIS is that.

Now you don't need to know any of this for these principles to work; my mother didn't.
(I think "reverse engineering" is my part to bring to the body, LOL). You only need to keep your focus on Him, keep pressing in which automatically makes your desires bow the knee, and He, the Holy Ghost, will do the works, one way or another. Blessings to you.....

[Reverend G]

Regardless of what others may tell you about their "sinless" state, remember that their was only one who was truly without sin.  All the rest of us can do is keep on trying.  One of the only things I got out of kabballah was this concept: try to improve, even if only by baby steps, it brings you closer to Him, not further from Him. 
  We can never hope to achieve perfection in this world, but every little bit of trying helps, and strengthens those around us to do the same.

[jabcat]

You've all given me some things to think about, thanks.  God's blessing.

[Redkora]

Many of these replies make the weight on me less heavy. I have a problem with masturbation (I know, TMI), and I fail every morning.

:sigh:

[Kratos]

He is our righteousness and as we behold Him, we are transfered into His image. Christ in us, the hope of glory.

John

[jabcat]

He is our righteousness and as we behold Him, we are transfered into His image. Christ in us, the hope of glory.

John

Amen.  It seems that what He's teaching me...Me just attempting to "subject my flesh" is looking like efforts, and they don't work very well...He's impressing upon me the "look(ing) to Him, the author and finisher of our faith" is a next step for me...

Jabcat, my 2  :2c: is that each of has his own conscience -- yours is different from mine, mine different from yours.  I don't know if it's the Lord dealing with you about this thing.  Only you know that. 

I once read, I can't remember where, that right after you meet Jesus, the Lord will immediately break you of some habits.  It could be things that you could never rid yourself of by yourself, but suddenly, He delivers you from that/those thing(s).  You could have ten bad habits and over time He'll provide deliverance from nine of them -- but then there's that tenth habit -- the hold out -- the one habit that you can't seem to get rid of.  That's your thorn, the one that He'll help you with but not necessarily take away.  This is the one "thing" that you'll always need Him for.  Because of this one thing you'll never stop needing, crying out to or reaching up for Him.

I like this...it really bears witness...we need a "reason" to keep looking to Him, the author and finisher..."I guess we're just not put together to remember to look toward Him without a reminder :dontknow:.

Found this from Prima on another thread, thought it fit really well here...may help someone (maybe even me).
Prima:
"Coming out, walking before God blameless (perfect), following Him, these are all part of the gospel message! No law written in stone is required, but those who are called are required to come to terms with God's requirements for holiness and submission to His authority. Not all are called (or chosen) in this life. Those who are not called in this life, we believe will somehow be called in the next."

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Redkora:
You must be American. ALL Americans have a problem with masturbation. Funny thing, I can't find it in the Bible!

Still, sexuality is truly a hot issue, and one that isn't usually touched on here (no pun intended). It's healthy to have a sexual drive, and not to be ashamed of.
I think the shame comes when we look at how it's being used for money, and the way that it's belittled and not given the respect it deserves!

Not even "Christendom" respects it. We all want to be part of the body of Christ...but only "certain" parts! All the rest can't be mentioned....!!! We really have a lot to learn, I have a feeling....

Love to all,
Brian

[Sarah]

It is our conscience that separates us from God. We hide from God and it is never His hiding from us.

This hits the nail on the head.

I have realized that my 'sins of the flesh' are not at all about God's relationship to me.  I remember when I was about 22ish, I was trying not to drink.  Well, I did anyway, and was sure I would feel that I was lost forever because I had 'defiled my conscience', it turns out I felt His love so much the next morning that it humbled me.  In fact, I felt Him say at one point that if I were to drink everyday for the rest of my life that His love for me would not change one bit...in fact, when He looked at me, it wasn't 'Sarah' He saw, but Jesus.

Now, when I do these things that I know are wrong...I have no feelings that God has withdrawn Himself from me, or that He has changed His communication with me in any way.  Strangely this knowledge does not increase the sin as some would think, but decreases it...in fact now I am stuck with the consequences of sin and am choosing them less and less.  If I drink too much, I eat more, I exercise less, and I get fat.  I like the feeling of skinny and energy more.  :bgdance: 

I am learning slowly that the hardest thing to do is the most rewarding.  When I get home from a long day, everything in me wants to eat and drink wine.  But I have learned that if I give myself a LITTLE break, and then exersice...I feel so amazingly good.  And not just for that moment, but in the long term too.  Why God set it up like this is maddening, but that's how it is.   :dontknow: 

(also, I try to replace bad habits with something else...like tea.  And if I mess up, I pay for it in the flesh.  It has nothing to do with my relationship to the Father.)

[hopeful]

Amen, Sarah!  When the sting and temptation is taken out of a habit or choice, the pull is not as strong!  It has no power!   :egyptdance:  But God does!

[Reverend G]

MODERATION

I think that is a relly useful term in most of the things I have read about here.  Things were put on earth, and we were given our parts for a reason.  To become "obsessed" with any one thing, is to replace Him and focus on some carnal or other desire instead of Him.  Drinking obsessively....some would say "religiously", that term describes why it is problematic.  The same could be said for sex, food, etc.... that's why the 7 deadly sins are what they are. The temple of your body is being used to pay homage to a false god. 
Not that I think these are deadly, at least in a spiritual sense.  The death they bring is a death of your relationship with Him in your life on this earth. I see no problem with consuming alcohol, though I no longer partake of it.  I refrain from it because I have proven conclusively to myself that I cannot moderate my usage, and the truth is it has caused me distress in more ways than just spiritual.  I have also experienced my problems of the flesh, and of course, I could stand to lose a few pounds these days!  For those who have never experienced any of these problems, one of the main points in overcoming addictions, according to 12 step programs, is faith in a higher power.  In the AA Big Book, the higher power is even referred to as God, though they do not force any belief on anyone. I find that most of my friends in the program may start with a nebulous "God" early in their program, having issues with religion, but as they progress in remaining sober, their image of God tends to focus, and anyone here would recognize that image as the same one you know.  Many even become church-goers!

[Nancy]

Hi there everyone,
Jabcat we all know how you feel because we are HUMAN! God knows our weaknesses, that we have this treasure in earthern vessels.
I have wanted to see Alien vs. Predator Requiem for a few weeks now. A part of me felt that i shouldn't see it but i felt blow it, i'm going, so i did. If i only did the things that i felt were 'right' in Gods' eyes, i would never leave my bedroom!!!
Martin Zenders' book 'How to sin whilst smoking a cigarette' is excellent and i would highly recommend reading it.  The more you try to stop doing something (smoking, over-eating, etc) the more the sin holds onto you as we can all testify to. Grace is the answer. 
As Martin says in his book, unbelievers trust God more with their sin than believers! How right!  I am human and God made me this way. So you binge. God knows why and doesn't condemn.  God willing you may get sick of doing it and give up but in the meanwhile the more you condemn yourself, the more you won't give up. Thats' how sin works. Its glad when you give it attention.  Crucify it. Stop feeding it.
Where sin increases, grace superexceeds.
By the way, Redkora, i masturbate aswell (i'm english) and i don't want to see it as a problem.  Its' a good way of relaxing, why should it be considered wrong! 
Martin Zender also says in his book, that if we try by our own strength to rid ourselves of our passions and lusts, we may do something even worse! Like give up coffee and we may beat our children!!!!!
I don't want to live like that anymore, worrying about my sins, whether this is a sin or not, etc. It is burdensome.
Hope this helps Jabcat.
Godbless
Nancy