Why "Tentmaker"

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Good question. I grew up In an environment of "hyper-grace". The fear if The Lord was not taught to me although my father and mother both were ordained ministers. I wish so much that they had disciplined me more severely and put "the fear of God" in me. It is not hard to find scripture on how foundational is the fear of The Lord.  I still have issues in my life that I feel could have easily been removed when I was a child, by teaching me the fear of God, as is done with children in some orthodox Jewish societies.

I have discovered The Fear of The Lord on my own in the study of scripture. To me it was a beautiful revelation similar to what some of you describe about suddenly realizing UR. It works deep reverence and humility in ways I never had. It gives me a deeper reverence for all His creation including mankind. And yes, it gives me a deep desire to be righteous and holy unlike I ever experienced in the realm of cheap grace. It has made me deeply sorry for the irreverence of my youth.  I love taking off my shoes and walking on holy ground now. And it is All holy ground.

I feel The Fear of The Lord does make me less self centered and more aware of my fellow man, and more concerned for their eternal and temporal well being. And yes, more loving. 

I have found many places in scripture that make me uncertain if I am one of the few of whom Jesus will refer to as "good and faithful servant".  He may say to me "Depart from me you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you."  I certainly call him "Lord", as he said "the many" will do.

But just as a child can become more respectful and loving, unselfish and serving through boundaries, discipline, and looming consequence; I too have responded in this way in my exposure to the biblical wrath if God.

And I have decided that it does not matter what my eternal destiny is. Because today is all I have. And today I will honor and worship and serve the Holy and righteous God of the universe because He is worthy.

If there is an eternal lake of fire, and the Holy One wants to hear an eternal voice of praise to Him rising out of the flames, I am his man.  I trust Him. I trust His ability to know where I belong. If I belong in the lake of fire, then maybe I will at long last feel like I belong.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Wadif......I think you already answered your own question. But....let's say you didn't. Do you still feel convicted by the Holy Spirit when you sin? How much more convicted do you think you'd feel if you used His grace TO sin willfully because you know He will save all? Your conscience would gnaw at you giving you no peace.

Everyone's knee jerk reaction seems to be that it gives us a license to sin, but I think it's just the opposite. You're more acutely aware of displeasing Him and feel worse when you do. My  :2c:  Blessings...

[sheila]

 isn't that the same objection the early christians heard from the old covenant adherents[law]? I believe these very things are already

addressed in the scriptures.  Then Paul spoke of how he was once alive apart from law...then the commandment came..and the sin in his

flesh slayed him through the commandment...and killed him.

    it all boils down to accusations  and charges of sin against Adam and his descendants under the law...and God's judgement in mercy

   through grace per Jesus' sacrifice.  The whole goodnews unto man of forgiveness of sins unto Adam's offspring....that God is not

  counting their sins against them..and instead is putting forth an olive branch of forgiveness[christ] unto reconciliation and life.

   we should not be over-righteous nor over-wicked...why should we die.? that is the pendulum.

   Paul spoke of the designs of the devil..and how the church could be overcome of the adversary...when he disciplined the man who had

  his Father's wife.   turn over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..that the spirit be saved on the day of the Lord.  But when the man

repented he was to be accepted back in[lest we be over-reached by satan]  a nice balance there wittnessed to in the scriptures.

   we have the other end in the judaizers .  It was Father's will to lighten the yoke on man...to not heap up heavy loads impossible to bear.

    we have a testimony of this wisdom in the scriptures...where a king-elect was counseled to lighten his burden on the people...and the

people would love him[YOU MUST LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH>>>>>] the foolish king elect instead put a much heavier

burden on the people.

     we and the holy spirit have decided to place no other burden on the believers other than these few necessary things...............

     

[dajomaco]

Are you going to help me look after my children and be nice to them?

A) Yes I will ,because if I am not nice to them you will beat me up. 

B)Yes I love you and your children.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[Seth]

That's where the sovereignty of God comes in. Pharaoh was hardened, so his rationality wasn't part of the equation. He could have been perfectly rational it wouldn't matter. He was a vessel in the potter's hands.God has concluded all in disobedience that he may have mercy on all.  :2c:

I am working through the stuff you sent me Seth. I told my parents about it because it is just excellent and the kind if work I need.

I still have books unread and links unvisited. I am trying to get to them all and will eventually. I might have to quit my job to get it done though.

The Bible is very clear here in the case of pharaohs heart being hardened by God. I wish the same clarity existed in every secret working of God. I wish it was as clear about UR in general.

You all obviously have a strong case or I would have been gone long ago.

No worries. Let me know if I can clarify. I think, at least from my own perspective, if it's a matter of appealing to the flesh, UR, I believe, is about the whole world being saved from sin, saved from the flesh, and thus could never appeal to it. I don't believe the new covenant gives any ground to sin, and those who continue to sin will continue to reap the destruction of it, by God's judgement, until repentance comes.

[dajomaco]

The flesh receives no glory in the UR message.
Therefore the flesh rejects the message.

[micah7:9]

The flesh receives no glory in the UR message.
Therefore the flesh rejects the message.

Amen.. :iagree: :dsunny:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ djamaco....You know I never thought about it like that before. That is so true. If God saves all (and He does) look at the works in the religious systems striving to save them in their fleshly efforts, ie. more building programs, bigger churches, more tithes coming in to spend on more luxuries to prove we're "the" right church, more hellfire sermons to keep 'em in line, ect. Blessings....

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Cardinal, I have gone to church all my life and have yet to hear a hellfire sermon. Where can I go to hear one?  I have read a couple from American history. Never heard one.

As I mentioned, I am coming from the world of hyper-grace. I have seen what it does to certain individuals. And every hyper-grace church has a number of those individuals. Which means I have seen what it does to churches; which means I have seen what it has done to our society at large. When you see the Moses of your movement a spiritual advisor to Oprah, I say take notice!  That is a frightening thing to me personally. And I know you would not accept the Moses title for him. But I am pretty sure there are people here who followed him out of Egypt.

At one of my hyper grace churches I remember hearing the young adults very excited and talking about how the pastor was going to be speaking to them on a very controversial subject. So I got excited to find out what the controversial subject was: sex outside of marriage. Evidently it was controversial because some in their group thought it might be wrong to have sex outside of marriage.  It is quite a divisive issue.

"To the pure, all things are pure."

Evidently, I found a large pocket of the pure.
Bless you.

[Seth]

Unfortunately, folks tend to quote "to the pure all things are pure" without finishing the sentence, interrupting Paul mid-thought.  :sigh:

[HungerForTruth]

Unfortunately, folks tend to quote "to the pure all things are pure" without finishing the sentence, interrupting Paul mid-thought.  :sigh:

Titus 1:5  To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

[sheila]

wow!  you are coming from a totally opposite direction from which I come.Had no idea there were churches like that!  :Chinscratch:

[Seth]

 

Unfortunately, folks tend to quote "to the pure all things are pure" without finishing the sentence, interrupting Paul mid-thought.  :sigh:

Titus 1:5  To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

:thumbsup:

Next verse: 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

I'm a hyper Grace believer too, but in the sense of Titus 2:11-14, the next chapter.

"For the Grace of God has appeared to all men, chastening us to deny ungodliness (paraphrased)."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Wadif..... I have probably seen a total of 3 Oprah shows in part, in my life, so I don't know to whom you are referring. I love Oprah, I think she wants to do right in her heart, but is blinded by the god of this world still and has encouraged a lot of New Age beliefs with some of her guests/book choices. I hope He gets a good hold on her, she could do much for the kingdom. Blessings....

[dajomaco]

What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).

But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .

[sheila]

 not that the man you speak of is Moses..I do not even know him,nor have I read his stuff.  but even 'supposing he is a 'moses' that

  people followed out of Egypt..you need to realize that that wicked generation perished in the wilderness..and Moses himself did

not to get to enter into the promised land himself..though he seen it from afar.. Exodus 40;35 Numbers 20;12

[Seth]

What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).

But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .

I think a believer who thought that Grace means he had license to sin is a one who doesn't understand what Grace does to sin, and how, according to the scriptures.  :2c:

[dajomaco]

But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may reside in me.

[sheila]

  'I will make you jealous by a people with no understanding' comes to mind

[HungerForTruth]

sin no more:

8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

[Seth]

But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may reside in me.

So when Grace chastens us to abandon sin, we can boast in his strength in contrast to our weakness.

For it his God in you both to desire and do of his will. It's not licence to sin, but freedom from sin.

[dajomaco]

What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).

But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .

I think a believer who thought that Grace means he had license to sin is a one who doesn't understand what Grace does to sin, and how, according to the scriptures.  :2c:

Loving your brother is a better motivator that the fear of Sin.
Sin becomes utterly disgusting as it tries to separate the brothers.
All sin separates.

[dajomaco]

The purpose of Grace is that LOVE may abound.

[Seth]

What kind of a believer would a person be?
Who came to Christ through Hyper Grace (knowing he had free licensee to sin at will).

But he chose not to sin.
He chose to Love .

I think a believer who thought that Grace means he had license to sin is a one who doesn't understand what Grace does to sin, and how, according to the scriptures.  :2c:

Loving your brother is a better motivator that the fear of Sin.
Sin becomes utterly disgusting as it tries to separate the brothers.
All sin separates.

We can't credit our own love in my opinion. The holy spirit does the work from within. All of him, none of us.

Having licence to sin and choosing to love according to our own gratitude isn't enough to overcome the carnal mind. We must walk by the Spirit.