"Sort by same/sort by different

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Al Larson is a wonderful Christian man who has deeply searched the scriptures for life principles. He is a psychologist that has helped many people move closer to Jesus. He has helped many , for example, overcome debilitating irrational fears in one session with them.

Al teaches that most people fall into one of two catagories. Some fall in the middle, but not usually. They (we) are usually primarily "sort by same" or "sort by different". I will testify that my exposure to this principle has helped me in life and relationships.

People often pair up with opposites. Marriages often have a sort by same and a sort by different.

People who "sort by same" tend to see how beautifully everything fits together and works together and "everything is beautiful in its own way."

People who "sort by different" see what is "off, wrong, or missing".

These two can easily get on each other's nerves because they view almost everything in life from a different perspective. When one of your children is the opposite of you, it can be a hard life for both of you, but maybe more so for the child who's authority figure misunderstands him completely.
Being able to recognize these types on the people we love can be extremely helpful in maintaining balanced relationships.

So my question is, which one are you?  I am wondering if UR attracts more of one than the other. I have a theory that it does. But I could be totally wrong.

Off the top of my head, the prophet Jeremiah and most Old Testament prophets are strongly sort by different. Not happy people when a society is about to collapse, because they see all the reasons why. Not sure, but I think Moses and Aaron both may have been sort by same. I think David was sort by same. I kind of think John was sort by same, and Peter sort by different. I hope this is not disrespectful, but I think the majority of what we see of The stories of Jesus would put him at "sort by different."  Logic might say he would have been the perfect balance of both. But just going by most of the stories of him, seems like he is pointing out what is "off, wrong, or missing".

It is not bad or good, (although your opposite might like you to beleive your perspective is bad) it just is. Obviously the Holy Spirit uses either who is yielded.

Which are you? Do you see what is "off, wrong, or missing"? (Sort by different). Or are you irritated at those who do because it was a really nice parade, and they are raining on your parade?  (Probably sort by same). 

If you have other UR friends, which type are they?

[Lazarus Short]

Wadif, could you give some examples of which is which?  Like, in ways that we can see ourselves through?  This is new to me.  :dontknow:

[rosered]

Hi W! and all
  I was told of UR and at first did not believe ,nor convinced , still being very literal and carnal  minded 

  Taking the scriptures to the very letter of the law  that kills ......   The Holy Spirit  interceded   and  Jesus Christ ''opened the seals ''  and understanding for me over many years  of hungering and thirsting for the TRUTH   that set many of us  free  , It was ALL HIM and not me , I would have never pursued  the depths and heights   of Gods  glory   and marvelous plan on my own accord      , HE IS THE ONE WHOM   DESERVES ALL HONOR AND PRAISE AND   GLORY   
My hubby God love him , still is not convinced but is silent when   I present   things he just cannot answer ... :sigh:
Revelations  has been the main stumbling block   with the lake of fire that burns forever and ever   , he just cannot seem to ''get past '' the literal interpretation 
   I asked him  how    did Jesus whom come to send fire upon the earth  and  divisions    not peace but a SWORD   to divide  in Luke 12  48-52

and do you see the FIRE yet?    and what of the burning bush in Moses time and the angel of the Lord spoke  to him and yet the bush was not consumed ?   

  None of these things   ''make sense to his carnal thinking ''   and  put him to silence      , but the seed is planted in his heart to think on these  things

  Spirit and truth are able to endure all things and all time  , these are eternal things   that GOD IS     , HE IS LOVE  AND A CONSUMING FIRE  AND SPIRIT 

  Those things are not easily   understood   in human terms  and were never meant to be ..

Being born again of the incorruptible seed which is Christ is the only way   GOD made   for us  to come to know HIM AND IT IS THOUGH  JESUS CHRIST   HIS ONE  OF A KIND SON ...   :HeartThrob:     God made a way where there was no way .....  all glory is Gods  , we can boast in  the Lord   and His goodness and  His mercy endures forever and  wrath is but for a moment !!!!
considering time    is not an issue    in God   , it  is only a human element that will also melt  away in Christ !!!   resolve :HeartThrob:

 

[Aerex]

I think God created an interested dynamic by purposely turning these basic principles upsidedown. I believe in both.

Examples Christ death was wrong but at the same time it was beautiful.

The apostles had a hard time, especially Peter who insisted on not having Jesus to die, understanding that goodness can only be understood after experiencing the opposite.

The hell doctrine has nothing good in it but the proposes of correction has a purpose bringing out good from evil.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Wadif, could you give some examples of which is which?  Like, in ways that we can see ourselves through?  This is new to me.  :dontknow:

This has to do with an ongoing thread "why 'tent maker'". But I didn't want to cloud that thread with this concept. But I am struggling with why UR seems to be such a cohesive doctrine for so many people, when for me it is fragmented and has several problems that I am not sure I can overcome. I am thinking maybe it is because I am so strongly "sort by different".  People don't like to be put in catagories, so I am avoiding that. But I can name you some on here that are strongly sort by same. So I am wondering if some one like me should even try.

I will pick a post from a good minded stong individual. I am not putting him in a catagory, but just telling you how my sort by different mind works:

Here is the quote from the other thread:


"I believe the following scriptures (and many others) convey the heart felt thinking of UR more than any other doctrine.[/b]

Luk_6:37  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat_6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
[/quote]"

Ok, now please, I am not criticizing this person. It is a wonderful post that helps me understand, and resonated with other readers.

You all see how these scriptures fit together to explain UR.

I just see flashing lights like on top of a police car pulling me over. The very next verse Jesus says "but if you do not forgive men their trespases, neither will your father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15)

To me this pair of verses is perhaps the most difficult in all of scripture. You want to talk about an unforgivable sin. Here it is: Unforgiveness is an unforgivable sin. Right out of the mouth of my beautiful Savior.

What does it mean to a UR??

How do you deal with it. I get the feeling you don't even notice it. I am trying to read the bible and pray as a UR believer. For me the Bible is like a mine field for that system of thought.

I can give you examples like that in probably ten different scriptures used in the same thread "why tentmaker?"

I want to embrace your beliefs. I think they are beautiful. But I am starting to feel like the way God made me won't allow it. I see the things that are "off, wrong, or missing". I can't help seeing them.

I want to know how everyone else deals with the problems. But if everyone else is sort by same, they don't even see the problems. I think it is wonderful that God made some people like that. They are a joy to be around.

[HungerForTruth]

I am an engineer, very detailed and look for flaws in designs.  I am a sort by different type.

I understand there are some "differences" that must be overcome to embrace UR.  With me, it just clicked - it only became real to me when the Spirit overwhelmed me with His presence and showed me the Glorious Gospel.  And - it happened in an instant. 

Now, when I read scripture, instead of constantly seeing the tensions of the Calvinist/Arminian points of theology (ie free will and sovereignty), I see (under UR) how all things just fall into place. 

Now I worship the God of the bible, not the bible.  I hope this rambling makes sense to someone.  lol    :mock: :dunno2:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: No, we do notice it. We notice other so-called contradictions on other subject matter, too. But one thing has remained constant for me in nearly 3 decades of study: if something appears to contradict, it's because I'm missing a "key" (or sometimes the man-made distortion either thru ignorance of the Spirit, or outright attempts at hiding the Truth). Once I discover the key, I'm amazed that there is agreement all thru it, even if on the surface it may not always appear to be so.

May I suggest you continue to ask Him to open your eyes to it? It's like salvation; once it happens no one on the face of the earth can tell you it didn't. Blessings...

[Lazarus Short]

I'm reading through the Bible, currently in Psalms, looking for scriptures giving a unified view of "no Hell."  See my thread, "Heaven Yes, Hell, No."  So I would ID myself as a sort by same type for the most part, though it began as a sort by different, by which I mean to say, hey, look at these scriptures which contradict eternal torture in Hell.  :flamebreath: > :eek: > :dunno2: > :rolllol: > :cloud9:

As I like to say, it all makes sense together, or it makes no sense at all.  :declare:

[HungerForTruth]

 :iagree:  with Cardinal.

Now:

"but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15)

Concerning that Wadif, to me, I feel God will do corrective/restorative punishment UNTIL the creature realizes the transgression and repents - then the trespass IS forgiven on behalf of the tresspasser.  Then, God can forgive the person.

I believe the big difference is we see punishment as restorative, not punishment for the sake of showing power and wrath to make people fearful.   Just my :2c:   :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

When the Lord revealed to me that the foundation, the Cornerstone of my learning must begin with the knowledge and understanding that HE IS LOVE (was, is, and will be.) To read, study, or pray without this Wisdom when one starts, leads to multitude speculations and interpretations.  :2c: :dsunny:

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

:iagree:  with Cardinal.

Now:

"but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15)

Concerning that Wadif, to me, I feel God will do corrective/restorative punishment UNTIL the creature realizes the transgression and repents - then the trespass IS forgiven on behalf of the tresspasser.  Then, God can forgive the person.

I believe the big difference is we see punishment as restorative, not punishment for the sake of showing power and wrath to make people fearful.   Just my :2c:   :Peace2:

Thank you. Now there is an example of seeing a problem and dealing with it. I think Gary has probably done this with all the problems, and I may need time to just work through them all. But I have problems with some of Gary's methods already. Not his fault. It is just me.  But he lost me when he started using Origen as proof that the early believers all believed in UR.

So did all the early believers also beleive in reincarnation and transmigration of souls? Did their beliefs stand in direct contradiction to the teachings of Paul and John?  Did they really beleive that the devil will experience reconciliation with God?  All these are attributed to Origen.

I know Origen was a great man, and maybe a genius, and maybe even correct. It's great that he believed in UR. But that Gary would use him to prove that this was the belief of the early church is a problem for me.  Could some one please try to understand how that might be a problem for me?

I do not worship the Bible. I do not even refer to it as the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. If you throw a Bible in the fire and it burns to ashes, you have done nothing to the Word of God.

But I am sorry, I can't buy the "burning in the bosom" thing as proof of the correctness of UR. It is the same thing Mormons will ask you to pray for. It is the same thing a group of Eastern Chanters (Budist, I think. I was very young) once asked me to pray for. So many founders of different sects and their prophetsgive testemony to the same thing including, but not limited to Seventh day Adventist, Mormon, and a long list of cults.

There is a phenomenon named by those who de-program those who have been brain washed such as in a cult. It is called "mind snapping". Our mind alerts us to things that are wrong. Mind snapping is when those warning are pushed away and ignored so long that the mind quits sending those warnings. I know you are not a cult, but please don't ask me to just ignore the flashing red lights.

Thank you again, Hunger, and others who are taking the time to explain how to deal with specific problems. I know it takes time. Time is a gift. Thank you for giving it to me.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi....if my comment is the one you're addressing with the flashing red lights comment, it wasn't meant to imply that. More like, if you ask your Father for a fish, He won't give you a serpent. I believe that what I ask for, I'll get, if it's done with a pure motive, because our Father desires to give good things to His children. Every time I've EVER asked Him to explain something to me in His Word, sooner or later, it's shown to me, either directly thru my study, or someone else's.  Blessings...

[HungerForTruth]

Awesome that you are searching this all out Whadif.

hey - check this book out.  It is called: "Universal Salvation?: The Current Debate".

"The volume opens with a rigorous three-part defense of Christian universalism by philosopher Thomas Talbott, who argues that Scripture teaches the ultimate salvation of all people, including those in hell. Gabriel Fackre in his foreword calls Talbott's work "the most thoughtfully wrought argument for universalism to date from within the contemporary evangelical community." The rest of the book gathers incisive responses to Talbott by Christian scholars from different disciplines, who evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of Talbott's arguments, take his thought in new directions, or explain why they think he is mistaken. Talbott then responds to his critics. The aim of this volume is not to persuade people that universalism is true but to open up a fairer debate on a controversial subject of continuing importance to theologians and nontheologians alike. By exploring universal salvation from biblical, philosophical, theological, and historical perspectives, the book helps readers think through the issues more carefully than has been possible with resources previously available."

This book really helped me.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802827640?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00

[sheila]

   I worked as a nurse for decades.  When we recieved nursing training.....we were to always be alert to negative signs/symptoms

to manifest in our patients...so we could get right on it..and avoid further complications.   I think that is what trained my mind

to hone in on the 'different'. It changed me..and the way I looked at life..that career.

   confused immune system..is a lot like Babylon's confused religious systems/belief. The body attacks self..thinking it is foreign....

    causing much damage. The real enemy[bacteria/virus/sin] overcomes weakened confused defense/protective system ............

       hate the sin[virus/germ/parasite/corruption]..heal the sinner[body]

   



 

[sheila]

  I have found that engineers have an aptitude for assembling many-fold pieces into a functional/working  smooth design..

  they were usually big into lincoln logs/puzzles legos as children.   my grandson is like this..I started him on puzzles at one year old.

  helped him with reading writing math;[after all their just like puzzle pieces, letters and numbers, that when assembled rightly form

  words,sentences,paragraphs and stories.which paint a word picture.

    the scriptures and word of God is that way...and His mind/spirit can assemble it for us.

 

[CHB]

Wadif, could you give some examples of which is which?  Like, in ways that we can see ourselves through?  This is new to me.  :dontknow:

This has to do with an ongoing thread "why 'tent maker'". But I didn't want to cloud that thread with this concept. But I am struggling with why UR seems to be such a cohesive doctrine for so many people, when for me it is fragmented and has several problems that I am not sure I can overcome. I am thinking maybe it is because I am so strongly "sort by different".  People don't like to be put in catagories, so I am avoiding that. But I can name you some on here that are strongly sort by same. So I am wondering if some one like me should even try.

I will pick a post from a good minded stong individual. I am not putting him in a catagory, but just telling you how my sort by different mind works:

Here is the quote from the other thread:


"I believe the following scriptures (and many others) convey the heart felt thinking of UR more than any other doctrine.[/b]

Luk_6:37  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat_6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

"

Ok, now please, I am not criticizing this person. It is a wonderful post that helps me understand, and resonated with other readers.

You all see how these scriptures fit together to explain UR.

I just see flashing lights like on top of a police car pulling me over. The very next verse Jesus says "but if you do not forgive men their trespases, neither will your father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15)

To me this pair of verses is perhaps the most difficult in all of scripture. You want to talk about an unforgivable sin. Here it is: Unforgiveness is an unforgivable sin. Right out of the mouth of my beautiful Savior.

What does it mean to a UR??

How do you deal with it. I get the feeling you don't even notice it. I am trying to read the bible and pray as a UR believer. For me the Bible is like a mine field for that system of thought.

I can give you examples like that in probably ten different scriptures used in the same thread "why tentmaker?"

I want to embrace your beliefs. I think they are beautiful. But I am starting to feel like the way God made me won't allow it. I see the things that are "off, wrong, or missing". I can't help seeing them.

I want to know how everyone else deals with the problems. But if everyone else is sort by same, they don't even see the problems. I think it is wonderful that God made some people like that. They are a joy to be around.
[/quote]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CHB wrote:
Don't know why this didn't quote like it should

One thing I try to remember when reading these verses that was before the crucifixion is, there was no Savior for us until Christ died. Things changed a little after the death  and resurrection of Christ. Everyone was still under the law, including Christ.

Some of the verses that seem to contridict UR usually have another verse that shows they don't. Take for instance where paul says to "work out our own salvation". Next verse says "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure". So, do we work out our own salvation or does God work it out through us? I could go on and on but if you play pro and con while reading you will work things out, or rather God will work them out for you. I guess I learned the most when I started reading many different views of what I had a problem with. Don't just read one mans view on something you have a problem with.

CHB

[marie glen]

hmmmm :Chinscratch: I think I am both..? :laughing7:

..and I do see some problems with UR.. Not UR itself.. and I don't pay a lot of attention to Origen / early church fathers, though I am interested in their thoughts, but to me, it's the Word and the Spirit.. Origen, perfect example of what can be right belief and also what can be 'wrong' belief in the same vessel..

I don't want to offend any one.. but I think too much expounding on the spiritual, or what is thought of as hidden messages of things, can cloud the UR message, losing readers and listeners... maybe I'm just too much a hillbilly, or that is concrete, down to earth, get your teeth into kind of person.. so that would be the sort by different, right?

But I think all people, all groups, all sects, etc, etc (including myself, and including UR) have their right on, and their error.. making us all imperfect and "we all err in many ways" - is that sort by same?

I have found no group that I can march lock step with.. yet I can march with almost any group.. and find the common ground..

It's actually my belief that no humans will go to the LOF.. but I am willing to compromise and say perhaps some very stubborn hold outs will..

For instance Jesus said "it will be easier for Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for you"

"The queen of the south will rise up" and say "on Judgment Day.."

These sorts of verses support my belief that Judgement Day will be more, and longer, than a day. I believe an age lasting 500 years, the reason being the Fall Holy Days spacing and timing, if the Spring Holy Days were fulfilled by the 1st Advent of Jesus.. I believe the three prominent peaks of the 2nd advent will 'fulfill' the thre ancient Autumn Holy Days.. making the one in the middle - Day of Atonement (DOA) - to be fulfilled by Day of Judgment which occurs after (and largely involving) those of the 2nd resurrection who arrive on the scene (resurrected) DOA, or that is "still in their sins" having died "still in their sins".

It makes no sense to me of a resurrection (after the 1000 years, represented by the 10 days between Trumpets and DOA) that lasts a day.. people wake up and are tossed into the LOF for purification.. when the Day of Atonement is a perfect representation of repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation. And Jubilee.

It's my belief it's at the end of that long 'day' that those (still) not believing (still not having their names in the Book of LiFe/believing/reconciliation) will be cast into the LOF for purification.. but who after experiencing being resurrected, etc, isn't going to believe?

That, to me, also makes the Day of Judgment (DOJ) a veRy important day.. a great day of review, repentance, mourning, even gnashing of teeth, as all examine mankind and angelic history.. all the horrible, horribleness of it.. A time of the major portion of writing His law on every heart and mind.

Besides, if God is the one who chooses the elect "I chose you, you did not choose Me".. why would the reconciliation of the non-elect require such more stringent measures in order to bring about repentance and being touched by God's Glory..

It's my belief a little leaven, in this example, untruth, leavens the whole lump.. makes it unbelievable..

I could of course be wrong.. I do believe He is a consuming, better word purifying, fire, absolutely. But I think of the LOF as a last ditch effort "created for the devil and his angels" not man..

Also, I find UR in be in the scripture so much more than 'hell' - and all believed references to a 'hell' are easily explained..

Jesus descended to the lower part of the earth.. the dust of the grave.. angels who left their first place are in chains of darkness (tartarus) awaiting judgment.. once they became imperfect, the opposite of God/Life, they cannot reverse their course and make their selves perfect.. hence they are locked into their course, and locked into judgment..

Gehenna of course, was the town dump where even the bodies of criminals were burned and the fire was not allowed to go out, but was kept burning.. better to (allegorically) toss ones hand or eye of offense into it than ones whole body once they offended one of these little ones!

"..visited or that is preached via the Spirit to those who were awaiting perishing while the ark was being prepared" why would this be His visiting a 'hell' where folks went upon their death, before even 'judgment'? It's not logical. Including the idea of 'going to heaven or hell at death' making death not non-life (the opposite of God/Life/Perfection) but another type of "life"...

So I throw this out every so often, and I could go on further, but I have to run.. duty calls.. :Peace2:

[marie glen]

p.s - and in that day, imo, "all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families of the nations rejoice before Him"

[Seth]

I see it from the perspective of Babylonian exile. For 70 years no less, nobody could ask God to be freed, until the proper time, because he would not hear them. That doesn't mean that Israel was forever lost. It's just that when God, after patience and long suffering is ignored, decided to bring judgement, that judgement must be meted out on his timetable. It doesn't mean his judgement doesn't still work for the good. Everything God does is for good.

[Shev]

I think that sometimes the "informational processing" aspect to a truth can make the whole thing exhausting, and even obscure the reality. Doctrine is important, and knowledge is important, but the scriptures are so full of facts (so to speak) that sometimes trying to weigh them in order to analyze something can even lead to more confusion. If UR is a clear tree trunk running though scripture, there still appear to be leaves (verses, passages) that do not resemble the tree itself, so we have the potential for an endless game of "what about this verse?" from the naysayers.

To me, the proof of UR, and the starting point, center point and ending point for any truth, is Jesus Christ Himself. He fully expressed the Father - so where then was the tormenting of His enemies? He was God come in the flesh - so where then the anger and wrath towards His creation? He perfectly expressed the divine reality - so where then the excommunication of His foes? On the contrary - "Father,  forgive them, they know not what they do." He thus fulfilled His own sermon on perfection by showing that God indeed loves His enemies!

My wife and I have a little dog that we love. However, we are very much aware that though he loves us too, he is in a state of constant puzzlement as to our ways. He observes certain patterns, but is none the wiser as to what the human reality is. Therefore, we can forgive him all the more when he inevitably comes short of the fullness of human existence, because he "knows not what he does". Similarly, the spiritually dead man is in blindness and rebellion, like a baby in a womb, denying that such things as light and color exist, because they have not become apparent to him. But it is God who speaks to all darkness and says "Let there be light!"

I see the "information" of UR in the scriptures, and indeed by revelation, which is more than mere fact-farming. But I see the embodiment and fulfillment of UR in the person of Jesus Christ, and I have no need for further proof.


:HeartThrob:

[HungerForTruth]

I think that sometimes the "informational processing" aspect to a truth can make the whole thing exhausting, and even obscure the reality. Doctrine is important, and knowledge is important, but the scriptures are so full of facts (so to speak) that sometimes trying to weigh them in order to analyze something can even lead to more confusion. If UR is a clear tree trunk running though scripture, there still appear to be leaves (verses, passages) that do not resemble the tree itself, so we have the potential for an endless game of "what about this verse?" from the naysayers.

To me, the proof of UR, and the starting point, center point and ending point for any truth, is Jesus Christ Himself. He fully expressed the Father - so where then was the tormenting of His enemies? He was God come in the flesh - so where then the anger and wrath towards His creation? He perfectly expressed the divine reality - so where then the excommunication of His foes? On the contrary - "Father,  forgive them, they know not what they do." He thus fulfilled His own sermon on perfection by showing that God indeed loves His enemies!

My wife and I have a little dog that we love. However, we are very much aware that though he loves us too, he is in a state of constant puzzlement as to our ways. He observes certain patterns, but is none the wiser as to what the human reality is. Therefore, we can forgive him all the more when he inevitably comes short of the fullness of human existence, because he "knows not what he does". Similarly, the spiritually dead man is in blindness and rebellion, like a baby in a womb, denying that such things as light and color exist, because they have not become apparent to him. But it is God who speaks to all darkness and says "Let there be light!"

I see the "information" of UR in the scriptures, and indeed by revelation, which is more than mere fact-farming. But I see the embodiment and fulfillment of UR in the person of Jesus Christ, and I have no need for further proof.


:HeartThrob:

Where is the like button??    :friendstu:

[Abigail]

Hello Wadif,

I love your honest way of questioning. As you have described it, I'm definitely a 'sort by different' type of person. I recognize the processing of thoughts you describe. In the past, after I was born again (before I knew UR), I've forced myself to believe things I was supposed to believe and I've hated it. You get stuck. It's not, imo, only a brain-thing (mind snapping), but also at the same moment a heart/spirit thing. My spirit saying 'no' to something I was supposed to believe and I just pushed that gentle urging away, maybe even thinking I was resisting satan.

About UR. First I heard about it, my spirit said yes to it, yet I had only a handful of scripture and some philosophical reasons. I did not want to make my own God, so after a while I decided UR to be a heresy. Very soon after that decision, I heard a hell sermon. I plunged into a deep depression and fear. When I fully realized what we christians actually believe, I knew I could never come out of this depression. For a while I resisted the 'way out', namely UR, strongly, because I feared it was a temptation from satan.
One day I read a scripture which God used to reveal His really GOOD news to me. The immediate fruits were the disappearance of depression, and a great joy, peace and love to other people. In my heart was peace, but my brain said I was believing a heresy right now.

Since than I have read a lot on the Tentmaker. I do not agree with every detail or argument. Like you I have the tendency to notice an argument is not completely logical - and that often makes a statement less believable than when there had not been an argument at all. I also sometimes stumble on scriptures that make me afraid. Yet I fully agree with Cardinal: God explains what I don't understand at his time. That is not forcing myself to believe something, it's more like waiting and resting. Looking at Him, not trusting my own understanding (or other peoples' theories). I've often experienced I learn a scripture means something totally different than I could perceive. So when I stumble on another one, this experience helps me to see: probably I don't fully see what God meant here.

I think you don't want to live by what feels good and just fool yourself and I don't either.
Yet imo there is a difference between feel-good and the testimony of the Spirit inside our hearts and we must not ignore that. Though God's ways are higher than ours, and His Wisdom is often something we don't comprehend, I believe He will often teach us in a way that makes sense to our minds as well.

BTW ET now is absolutely illogical to me right now...
The writings of Charles Slagle helped me to see this (look for Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ)
Hope this helps somewhat

[Caffus]

Unforgiveness is forgivable, but we must repent of unforgiveness and be healed of it in Christ before we are forgiven, yes we must forgive. We can't be whole with unforgiveness in our hearts. We can not be happy together forever with someone we hold something against.  This is one reason, one of the many reasons I believe in UR. He taught us we must forgive everyone because we will ALL be together forever. Makes sense to me anyway, forgivness as well as all things of God are for our own good.  He wants to be first in our lifes becuase He is all we really need.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

You all have given me so much to think about and to read. I have the two books written down and will order them. people have sent me links privately as well. I wish I could respond to each post and each point made, because I have a response in me each time. I doubt if I can get that organized though. Some of them ticked me off (sort by same  :eek: hahaha), and some I could really relate to (sort by different  :Peace2:). (By the way, I love being around sort by same. God made us to need each other).

Sometimes I am feeling overwhelmed and maybe lost. Yours is not the only approach to scripture I am exploring. And each discipline is so convinced of it, and so convinced that others are incorrect.  It is quite daunting and actually, makes me feel pretty sad sometimes. I wish I had more hope that something will make sense...that somewhere there is a discipline that can keep the whole bible as it is without having to twist so hard in places to make everything fit that particular conception of who Jesus was and is.

Then I read this and it rips my guts out:

John 17:20 ff. "I do not pray for these alone (those with him), but also for those who will believe in me through their word; that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."

Can't really see to type.  Will try later.

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

22)"and the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23)"I in them and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as you have loved me."