Why "Tentmaker"

[joeteekay]

In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist?  Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?


I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise  people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.

I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love

Yes  :thumbsup:

I believe the following scriptures (and many others) convey the heart felt thinking of UR more than any other doctrine.

Luk_6:37  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat_6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup:

[rosered]

 :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

  Awesome    Daj !!

[CHB]

I had recently told someone that I don't live my life differently, now that I believe in UR. Which, is basically true. 

But, one of the main ways I am different for believing in UR, includes a deep joyfulness that God sees all of us through, and doesn't give up on us, until we return to Him. Once I heard of UR, I felt, YES, that is the God I know. I am sure He never gave up on me, though many times this world did.

Even among my Christian friends, I am often criticized for not letting go of people, when they hurt me. But, my idea of unconditional love, includes still to love them, and not to stop reaching out to them or being available to them.

We will all let each other down, sooner or later, but my idea of love says that it stands by and hopes; it continues to love. This is the aspect that drew me to UR the most, from the beginning. I believe it is God who taught me not to toss people aside, but to continue to nurture the relationship, even when the going gets rough.

People say, but you will keep getting hurt, and it will ruin your own sense of self, but, I find, if we give it all to God, and follow His lead, and not people's, that He gives us the strength and yes, even the joy, to love through the storms.  If we don't take their rejection or anger personally, but rather allow God to be a filter for our feelings, we can do great things. In our fallen world, there are times, I realize, that relationships must end or change radically, but even then, we can still do so in a loving way, and not in a cruel or callous way.

I believe the present template of Hell, gives people the green light to limit love too much, both God's and their own.

Love never fails.

:HeartThrob:

Hi Dandelion,

I should take lessons from you.  I am experiencing this very thing in my life and everyone tells me the same thing as what you have said some have said to you. I believe God is giving me this to learn from even though it is hard sometimes. I agree with you that love should be the main focus. Just let God handle it all, it is all in his hands anyway. I say, "Lord what is it that you want me to learn fronm this experience". I am sure there is a lessen in it all.

CHB

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

Thank you so much for the personal experiences of how UR has effected your lives and every day thinking and acting and interacting. The more you can tell me about that, the better. Maybe there is already a thread like that you can recommend to me.

I wish I could get to my pholosophical questions, but need to wait till I can sit quietly and flesh them out.

But they won't even matter if I can't answer all my biblical questions. There are a mountain of scriptures that I will have to re-visit. Gary listed a whole pile of translations that eliminate "Hell". I need to get one of them. Is there a certain one you all feel is most accurate? Or do a need a parallel literal word for word translation, or what do I need?  I have started learning Hebrew. It is a source of deep joy.

Thank you.

[jabcat]

remembered this old thread wadif...may be interesting/helpful;  if not, ignore  :)

http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/eternal-'hell'-is-gone-but-god's-fire-burns-bright/msg106743/#msg106743

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist?  Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?


I find now that I believe in UR.
That I don't judge or categorise  people according to their sin.
I find I judge my personal walk with the Lord less according to Sin,
and more according to Love.

I am more committed to loving.
My main commitment before UR was a commitment to not sinning.
That turned out to be a complete failure.
I feel better about my relationship with Jesus when I witness my self being loving or kind.
Definitely less conscience of sin and more conscience of God's Love

Dajomaco, I think you have a very sharp mind, and it is an honor to be among minds like yours and other very sharp thinkers who seem to be the norm in this place, rather than the exception.

Just so you know where I am coming from, this verse pretty much Sums up what I am learning about love.

1 John 5:2,3  "by this we know that we love the children of God, that we keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And His comandments are not burdensome."

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

remembered this old thread wadif...may be interesting/helpful;  if not, ignore  :)

http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/eternal-'hell'-is-gone-but-god's-fire-burns-bright/msg106743/#msg106743

I got to breeze through the first few posts. Perfect!! Exactly what I hoped for.
Thank you.

[jabcat]

remembered this old thread wadif...may be interesting/helpful;  if not, ignore  :)

http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/eternal-'hell'-is-gone-but-god's-fire-burns-bright/msg106743/#msg106743

I got to breeze through the first few posts. Perfect!! Exactly what I hoped for.
Thank you.

:thumbsup:

I think many, myself included, have not given enough "credit" to God's Spirit doing God's works in us as believers, not us (whether ET or UR) doing them ourselves through our own efforts or ability to "stay out of trouble" with God.  No matter what, we need to look to and trust in Him.  ET, UR, ED, whatever - we can only please God through faith, which is His gift to the believer. 

Rm. 9:16  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Phil. 2:13  For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

1 Peter 1:2  according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ [looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2]  and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

[marie glen]

The Bible refers to the body as a tent. I've often wondered if Paul's profession as a tent maker reflected his office as an Apostle building up the new man, corporately and individually, and sending it into the world. I'm sure Gary had other ideas about why he named his ministry tentmaker though.

Well the tent thing is close to my heart. I raised my two kids while living in the Northwoods by a small lake, in a "GP small" 6 man arctic army tent. It was wonderful, and my kids are so proud of their time there. (Aprox 7 years, over a span of 9). People in here have said "welcome to the tent!"  And my heart pounds. That is what we called our home for all those years. "The Tent".

A lot of my heros lived in tents for parts of their lives: Abraham, Moses, God; to name a few. And as mentioned, Paul made them, and would I ever love to have one of those made by Paul!!!  A lot of remarkable things happened within the walls and doorways of tents. I mean, things of Biblical proportion. :)

I wonder if Gary had the original tabernacle tent in mind, or maybe the tabernacle of our bodies, as Seth mentioned.  Any way, anything to do with a well made tent is OK by me.

I've aways wanted to live in a tent.. or teepee.. or even a hut! So basic and close to nature and not of this worldly system. But alas my husband was not going to go for that.. but when the Lord answered prayer for a house for us to buy, it was a humble and inexpensive one which is shaped a bit like a tent..

But most of all, I love how God's Great Plan of Salvation ends with "tent"

Revelation 21:3 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,

Revelation 21:3 - King James Version (KJV)

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
         :dsunny: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

Thank you for the link Cardinal. I went looking on my own and the closest thing I found was a thread on herbal medicine that people smoke. The smoke part of that health equation seems a little counter-productive. Kind of like when I discovered tooth paste contains sugar. Anyway, your link will save me some time. Thanks.

So "Hunger for Truth" presented one peice of the puzzle. Here is another preface to some questions I hope to ask when I have time: A couple years before Martin Luther died, his theology had progressed to the point where he could write two widely celebrated peices. "On the Jews and their lies" and "on the holy name and lineage of Christ"

Luther's writings became as scripture to many Germans. These two peices were often proudly quoted in anti Jewish liturature or speech. I wrote down some quotes from those papers, and comments by Hall V Worthington.

Martin Luther had been kind to the Jews as a younger and less enlightened man.
Now he wrote that they were no longer the chosen people but the devils people. "Base whoring people, that is no people of God. And their boast of their lineage, circumcision and law must be accounted as filth." [...full of the] "Devils feces...which they wallow in like swine"

Describing the synagogue: a "defiled bride, yes an incourageible whore and evil slut."

Worthington write of Luther: "he advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayer books, forbidding Rabbis from preaching, seizing Jew's property and money, smashin up their homes, and ensuring that these 'poisonous envenomed worms' be forced into labor or expelled 'for all time'

Luther wrote: "we are at fault in not slaying them."

It is so veRy strange to me how people who can be so on the mark with the Lord and His Word in some ways, and can still be very wrong, some terribly so as these posts about Calvin and Luther show.. It's just shocking to me.. But it serves to remind us how easily human beings are led astray.. I think of untruth like leaven and eventually, even like faith and the Word (as leaven) can leaven the whole lump! It also reminds me of some of the seven letters to the churches.. evidence of mixtures of good and then not so good! Tells me to never tire of yield, yield, yielding ones' self to the Lord and is what I think is partially meant by "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" - I'm sure this translation is lacking something as we don't work out our own salvation.. That, I believe, was done on the cross - "If I be lifted up from the earth" Jesus said, "I will draw all to me" Jn 12:6(?)
             :smile:

[marie glen]

I hate to just leave it at that point. I may have to do this in small bits as I work long hours except on Saturday.  But this is all about theology. I don't want to make too broad a statement, but what individuals and society's think and do are in a large part a result of what they beleive about God. The ancient "nature vs. nurture" discussion applies. Hungry said "no wonder john Calvin's God was so severe. Look at what John Calvin was capable of".  Yet the article implied the opposite, that Augustine's theology paved the way for Calvins behaviors. He said "Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva, because that is what his theology teaches."

Yes we each have genetic pre-disposition that makes us look for a fitting theology for our personality. Yet we yield ourselves to the chosen theology and become shaped by it. The old Calvin and the old Luther had changed. I feel the theology changed them, or at least encouraged the change.

The little choir boy in Germany named Adolph had a personality that responded to Luthers theology in shocking ways. The theology paved the way and prepaired the society for it.

Eventually, I want to get to a concept that Calvin's theology had in common with Luther's theology, and if I am not mistaken, also with UR theology, although not with some other systems of Christian theology.

In the mean time: an awkward but honest question to Hungry, and anyone else who has come from other Christian views to now embrace UR thinking: did you sin more as a Calvinist (or other) or more now as a Universalist?  Or, has your sinning (or not) stayed the same?

My flaws are the same.. pretty much.. But I've almost always since '79 when I was saved, believed in UR.. Except for a short time I wondered about EA / eternal annihilation, based loosely on the parable of the wheat and tares.. but the logic of where that idea leads made me give that one up..

I've always been and still am, for the most part a spiritual hermit.. I'm not saying I haven't learned form others in the body, but I've never really been affiliated with a church or doctrines.. Almost all my studying has been alone, with just the Word and the Spirit (daily bread & new wine) although I do read commentary and study aids along with my studying.

'Hell' or God as imperfect has never seemed logical to me. And surely perfect can lose nothing and the 'end' result of all this (life as we know it/human history) can only be perfect.

[marie glen]

So many awesome responses in this thread! Too many to respond to them all! But with them  :iagree: :iagree: Very good thread and a real good read!!
                                      :girlheart:

I'm going to check out the two links tomorrow..

[jabcat]

i agree with the "human element" marie.  was thinking about that earlier today.  God can use cracked vessels.  many/all of us have pieces God gives us, we just don't have it all yet.  Just as I believe Calvin had some things right, Luther did as well (fill in the blank with many, many names).  But we're still clay, battle with the flesh, and "don't win'em all".  That will be remedied some day.  In the meantime I think we have to sort through, take things before the Lord, use discernment, and be led by the Spirit.  And then we're still still human with all that entails.

I asked Gary about the tentmaker name.  He's had a tiring day working on a newsletter, but here's what he replied;

"Tentmaker has to do with the restoration of the Tabernacle of David. Paul is my favorite apostle, but the name Tentmaker centers around the Tabernacle of David versus the Mosaic Tabernacle which was going on at the same time worship was offered on Mount Zion. The old "Law versus Grace" argument goes back a long long time, even before Paul came on the scene."   

[rosered]

i agree with the "human element" marie.  was thinking about that earlier today.  God can use cracked vessels.  many/all of us have pieces God gives us, we just don't have it all yet.  Just as I believe Calvin had some things right, Luther did as well (fill in the blank with many, many names).  But we're still clay, battle with the flesh, and "don't win'em all".  That will be remedied some day.  In the meantime I think we have to sort through, take things before the Lord, use discernment, and be led by the Spirit.  And then we're still still human with all that entails.

I asked Gary about the tentmaker name.  He's had a tiring day working on a newsletter, but here's what he replied;

"Tentmaker has to do with the restoration of the Tabernacle of David. Paul is my favorite apostle, but the name Tentmaker centers around the Tabernacle of David versus the Mosaic Tabernacle which was going on at the same time worship was offered on Mount Zion. The old "Law versus Grace" argument goes back a long long time, even before Paul came on the scene."

  :thumbsup:

     :HeartThrob:  I thought how merciful God truly is  to shorten the days   of our flesh ,   from Adam whom lived 93o years in  flesh & blood  and knowing  evil  and good   and in Noah's day to 500 years  and Moses day 120    and in   Davids   70 or 80 by grace and we still have this   to this DAY!     and a 1000 years is as a Day to the Lord and a day is thousands years    ,  we are as a 'hairs breath ''   in his Sight ...GOD IS  SO AWESOME! :dsunny:

  The sure mercies of David !!  I love these verses  our    hope in Jesus Christ ...


Acts ...33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' 34"As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: 'I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.' 35"Therefore He also says in another Psalm, 'YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'...

Isaiah 55:3
Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.

Jeremiah 30:9
Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.

Acts 2:24
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Acts 13:30
But God raised him from the dead,

Acts 13:33
he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "'You are my son; today I have become your father.'
Treasury of Scripture
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

now.

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death ...
I will.

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come to me: hear, and your soul shall live; ...
the sure.

2 Samuel 7:14-16 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, ...    :banana:

2 Samuel 23:5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he has made with me an ...

Psalm 89:2-4,19-37 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: your faithfulness ... :cloud9:

Jeremiah 33:15-17,26 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness ...

Ezekiel 34:23,24 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, ...

Ezekiel 37:24,25 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall ...

Hosea 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD ...

Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, ... :icon_king:

Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and ... :icon_flower:


Praise God for sending Jesus Christ and all  those  found in Him !!   :dsunny:

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

I have so many questions, and some of them might be disruptive. I am trying to get the answers by reading the articles and discussions posted here, but sometimes I am not finding complete answers, or am maybe a little, well maybe a lot surprised at leaps that are made in reasoning.

I don't want to be disruptive if this is a peaceful quite neighborhood where everybody is happily at "100% sure" as one article stated. I can continue to work things out on my own. Just wondering what the climate here is.

Still don't want to be disruptive. If this is, delete it.  It does not bother me.

Chapters and books have been written on the following subject, but I will be as brief as I can.

The philosophical problems I am facing with UR, are practically the same as those I have with Calvinism. You have given me much to read, and hopefully my reading will cover this topic. But maybe someone on here was like me and found a way past it.

It might be characterized in the "U" of the five pointed TULIP of Calvinism: "Unconditional Election"; or more broadly, an all encompassing "predestination".

C.S. Lewis and other thinkers have explained the problem of suffering, inasmuch as related to the problem of sin, as a result of the problem of love. Love requires choice. The possibility of love requires the possibility of sin and the resultant suffering. Without free will there cannot be either love or sin, says C.S. Lewis.  And I agree with his analysis.

In the article posted in this thread by "Hungry for Truth", it's author said "Calvin exercised forced regeneration on the citizens of Geneva, because that is what his theology teaches."

And that is my problem with Calvinism and UR".  Unconditional election, and ultimate redemption, or Universal Reconciliation, are all forced regeneration. There is no choice, and where there is no choice the possibility of love is removed. Everyone is there wether they want to be or not. They are forced to be there irregardless of will. Are they forced to love as well?  If so it is not love, it is a computer programmed video game, with God at his joystick for all eternity. And if all of his creation is redeemed, there is Satan, a good boy now. (But not by choice). All his gang there with him; forced to be in heaven, also forced to love.

They say the opposite of love is apathy. And when I get too close to the doctrines of forced regeneration, I feel apathy creeping in. Nothing matters. Everything begins to lose meaning for me. All thoughts and sensations are merely electrical impulses along neuro-pathways that deceive me into thinking I am alive.

It's creepy to me.

I think I would rather be in the lake of fire worshiping and loving God by choice.  And maybe I would be joined there by other true lovers who chose with me to share in the fellowship of His suffering, because He died to set us free to choose Him every day for all eternity. And we could love each other and care for each other's wounds. "And as hot as it is, our only real Eternal Torment is in knowing so many people are in heaven stripped of choice, and therefore stripped of the ability to truly love for all eternity.  Yet we choose to worship God singing 'though You slay me, yet I will trust You. For even though I descend to the depths of Sheol, You are there'."

And when we've been there ten thousand years, we finally get brave. We put together a rescue mission. We storm the gates of Heaven, and free any captives there who choose to come. And they join us there in the lake where they learn how to choose love again. And Jesus joins us because he knows how much we love him and He is tired of all the glassy eyed blank stares he is getting from people in Heaven.

Has any one experienced these feelings and thoughts who was able to eventually set up camp at Universal Reconciliation?         Wadif U.R. Rong

[Dandelion]

I believe in UR and free will. Love isn't love, without free will, I believe.

I guess it could be likened to Thomas, when he doubted that Jesus had risen, and had to see the marks of the nails, in his feet and hands.

Some of us, just need a bit more convincing. It didn't mean that Thomas believed less than the others.....it just required more evidence.

That is how I picture UR manifesting itself.

Blessed were those who believed without seeing, Jesus said, to him.

I want to be 'in that number'. 

Hope that helps a bit, Wadif. 

D.

[HungerForTruth]

Whadif:

I do not think that UR is that one is forced to believe.  I see it this way wadif:  If someone dies in unbelief and goes to judgment,  he or she will see God and Christ for who they truly are.  Doubt will be erased.  They will see that God is truly loving and merciful and be drawn to that.  All of their sin will be real apparent to them.  No excuses - they are exposed to THE TRUTH - Jesus Christ.  They will understand the price paid for the reconciliation. 

A rational being would repent and believe.   For a really bad case, there may be a period of purifying fire that cleanses them.  After a time of that surely they would repent and believe?  Who wouldn't take that free gift?

Let me see - a rightful torment and restorative punishment, or perfection and well being........meh - I want torment.  Come on.  That does not even make sense.   :doh: Who would chose to continue in suffering?   :Peace2:  Where is the forced to believe in that? :dontknow:

[Aerex]

We make choices yes but we do not have free will such that all of our choices are influenced by some outside force mainly God.

There is no where in the Bible where God has respected someone's choices. It is just not in there.

God causes all things to happen whether good or bad. When God says He is sovereign He is not joking. If you say that isn't fair or God is forcing you then read this Scripture.

for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;' so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness: for the Writing saith to Pharaoh--`For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;' so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden. Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?' nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus? hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour? And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call--us-- not only out of Jews, but also out of nations,
Romans 9:15-24 YLT98
http://bible.com/821/rom.9.15-24.YLT98

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

There is no where in the Bible where God has respected someone's choices. It is just not in there.

22The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. 23Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25Far be it from you to do such a thing -- to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

26The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the LORD, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"

"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

29Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"

He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

30Then he said, "May the LORD not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"

He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the LORD, what if only twenty can be found there?"

He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

32Then he said, "May the LORD not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"

He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

33When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.



"Abraham's prayer for Sodom -- really for Lot and his family -- is an amazing revelation of the faith of one man in the justice of Almighty God and an incredible boldness of a mere human before the Creator of the Universe. Abraham seems to stand before God alone, yet wields significant influence over God's actions."

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

There is no where in the Bible where God has respected someone's choices. It is just not in there.

Daniel 10

12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

So help me out here. I am guessing predestination says Daniel was predestined to fast and mourn and pray. And the angel was NOT coming in respect of Daniels decisions to pray and fast. That is because Daniel didn't really decide to do that. He has no will in these things, he is a pre programmed computer. God had no respect for Daniels decisions in dispatching his angel. The angel was dispatched by God only because he was predestined to come. Correct?  And the forces he had to fight in order to get there, were just pre destined to make it hard on the poor angel, and make Gods pre programmed video game a little more interesting.

Am I getting close?

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

And, in the exchange with Abraham, obviously God had pre-programmed himself to change his mind six times at the pre programmed requests of Him from Abraham.

I'm catching on, right?

[HungerForTruth]

I'm catching on, right?

(http://dl5.glitter-graphics.net/pub/568/568365ie5zttjn21.gif)

[Wadif I.M. Rong]

"Don't wake up a sleeping giant".  Right? :LH:

[sheila]

well, if we recieve what we pray for...according to His will..........and it is God that causes us to will and do His pleasure.......

   I think it was always God's will to deliver righteous Lot and not burn him...whose righteous soul was tormented by their filthy

conversations.  That He included Abraham in on what He was about to do......and shared dialogue with him about His judgement

and actions...and that the birth of Sarah's promised  child would be accomplished within a year.......was also announced at the visit.

  a servant knows nothing of His master's affairs...a friend..due to intimacy is clued in..and a son..inherits[all that the Father has given me]

  speaks of ongoing relationship.

   there are many posts on free will   on this site..and I don't want to  open a can of worms.  I will just say..it is my opionion..that

  He is in total control over the whole creation.